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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: JamesDMcBust on Saturday 17 May 08 23:07 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to place Robert Jones within a family. He was born 1841 in Llanarmon, Denbighshire. Also, he eventually married a Margaret Walters (born Marchwiel in 1852). Can anyone please give me any information on either?
Many thanks.
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Hi James :)
Is that Llanarmon yn Ial, Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog or Llanarmon Mynydd Mawr.
I have the registers for the last two but not for the first :-\
Do you have their marriage date/reference? This would give their parents' names.
Regards
Gadget
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I am struggling to find any Margaret Walters born in Denbighshire in 1852 on any Birth Index or Census.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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There are two Robert Jones on the 1891 born Llanarmon (unspecified) 1840-41 in Wrexham but neither are married to a Margaret.
James, would it be possible for you to give us more details of the couple - when they married, where you've found them, occupations, etc.
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget & William. I found Robert & family on 1891 census - and I apologise but I got his wife's name wrong - it was Charlotte.
Robert Jones 1841 Llanarmon, Denbighshire
Charlotte 1852 Marchwiel
Walter 1878 Gwersyllt
Florence 1881 Gwersyllt
Lottie 1887 Brymbo
John 1890 Brymbo
I don't have a marriage date/place but Robert is listed on 1891 census as joiner. His birth place is just listed as "Llanarmon". Hope some of this helps. :)
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Hi James
I found that one but because of wife's name, i dismissed it :(
Robert Jones is a difficult name to find - so many (as I know with my own lines!) but this looks a likely - b. Lanarmon in Yale (yn Ial)
1851
HO107/2504 Folio 27 Page 14
Brenhinlle or Bronhinlle, Chwyleiriog, Llanarmon in Yale, Ruthin
John Jones, 34, farmer of 13 acres, b.Abergele
Sarah, 33, b. Lanarmon Yale
Robert, 10, scholar, b. Lanarmon Yale
Jabez, 8, scholar, b. Lanarmon Yale
Anne, 6, scholar, b. Lanarmon Yale
Sarah, 3, b. Lanarmon Yale
Gadget
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There is also this one - again Llanarmon yn Ial
1851
HO107/2504 Folio 54 Page 18
Cefn Gwyn, Cyfnant, Llanarmon, Ruthin
Robert Jones, 50, ag lab, b. Gwyddelwern
Elizabeth, 48, b. Flintshire, Hope
Robert, 11, b. Llanarmon
Harriet, 7, b. Llanarmon
Hannah, 2, b. Llanarmon
Gadget
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Hello James
Are you sure about Charlotte's surname. I can't find a birth for her on the North Wales BMD or a marriage to Robert :-\
You really need their marriage cert to find out Robert's father's name/occupation.
Gadget
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Working them back from your 1891 info:
1881
RG11/5517 Folio 135 Page 53
Gwersyllt Hill
Robert Jones, 40, carpenter, b. Llanarmon
Charlotte, 29, b. Marchweil
Deborah, 12, b.Brymbo
Emily A, 5, Gwersyllt
Walter, 3, Gwersyllt
Gadget
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I'm wondering if Robert was previously married before he married Charlotte. There is a big gap between Deborah and Emily.
Two possible birth registrations for Deborah Jones:
Wrexham
Mar q, 1869, vol 11b, page 322
and
June q, 1869 vol 11b, page 300
The first is most likely because of the timing of the census but it could be the second if it was a late registration.
Gadget
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I've just made contact with someone who has this Robert Jones in his tree. He gives wife's maiden name as Charlotte Smith and marriage as 1874 Wrexham. He gives 5 children Emily Ann, Walter, Florence, Lottie & John Albert. (Just seen new posting) He was as you correctly guessed married before and had daughter Deborah.
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Right, we're getting somewhere :)
Marriage - Wrexham, June Q, 1874, vol 11b, page 545
Gadget
It does help if we have the correct names :'( :'( :'(
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1871 Wales RG10/5659/20/7
Bodigeyr yr larl and Llanarmon
John Jones 53 farm lab b Abergele
Sarah 52
Caleb 13
Elizabeth 9
Deborah 1 g'dau b Broughton
Robert 1 g'son b Wrexham
Looks like you may have found this one earlier, Gadget.
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So my first 1851 looks correct :D
Gadget :)
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This is the only Charlotte Smith I can find in the general area in the 1861 Census.She is showing as born in Caca Dutton Isycoed Denbighshire the daughter of George and Anne Smith both of Caca Dutton.RG9/4279/28/15.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham
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Thanks once again for helping me out.
I've looked in the1861 census and find the following. I think this is the same family.
John Jones 1817
Sarah 1819
Sarah 1848
Pamely 1853
John 1855
Caleub 1858
Robert was 20 in 1861 and would have left home.
You give Robert & Deborah as grandchildren to John & Sarah in the 1871 census. Who would their parents have been? This is getting me a little confused. This Robert & Deborah were both born in 1870.
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In 1881 census Deborah aged 12 is with Robert and Charlotte, classed as daughter, this will be to Robert, as he didn't marry Charlotte until 1874.
Robert aged 1 in 1871 so he might also be the son of Robert, having the same name, or maybe not. Birth cert would show.
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Wales 1881 RG11/5521/19/9
Llanarmon yn lal, Ruthin
John Jones 63 farmer 14 acres b Abergele
Sarah 62 b Llanarmon
Robert 11 g'son b Brymbo
So Robert is still with his grandparents. He could be son of Robert. Perhaps if we could determine his birth reg, or marriage............
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As he is shown born Brymbo, my bet would be that he is Deborah's brother and also the son of Robert.
As I said earlier, Robert Jones is one of the most difficult names to locate in records. I gave two references to a Deborah Jones birth registration:
Two possible birth registrations for Deborah Jones:
Wrexham
Mar q, 1869, vol 11b, page 322
and
June q, 1869 vol 11b, page 300
James - i think you should get one of these certificates. It's possible to specify that the father was Robert so that you don't have to purchase both.
We've come a long way since you gave us Margaret Walters - was that possibly Robert's first wife :-\
Gadget
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There are 18 marriage refs to a Robert Jones marrying in the Wrexham Registration District 1867-69. I think getting Deborah's birth cert might be the best chance of finding who Robert's first wife was.
Gadget
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This looks very much like Robert in 1871. His place of birth is shown as Llandelgla rather than Llanarmon but they are quite close or it could be misinformation by his landlord
1871
Queens Head Inn, Brymbo
RG10/5654 folio 24 page 15
Thomas Taylor, 29, head, engine driver and Innkeeper, b. Liverpool
...........
Robert Jones, boarder, widower, 30, carpenter, b. Llandegla
Gadget
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Click here for map of the positions of Llanarmon, Llandegla,Brymbo, Gwersyllt and Marchweil (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=325000&y=355000&z=5&sv=325000,355000&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=319326&ay=352437)
Gadget
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Hi gadget/silvery
I will order a birth certificate for Deborah Jones as you suggest. As for Margaret Walters being Robert's first wife. I had been inputting information on another area of my tree during the same evening and I seem to muddled up the wife's name from another family. A case of trying to be too clever!
Thank you very much for your dedicated help on this subject.
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Hello James
Before you order certificates. If you give me names, dates and places I'll have a look for baptisms they also give parents names.
Paul.
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Hi Paul
Names, dates and places are on the thread :)
I did think of suggesting that we might call you in ;) It looks like Robert's (1841)parents were John and Sarah, Llanarmon yn Ial
if you could get a baptism for Deborah (1869/70) Brymbo probably), it would get a mother's name :)
Gadget
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Hello. Lanarmon yn Lal baptisms 1840-1850.
Oct 17 1840. Robert Jones S/O Thomas & Sarah. Miner.
June 23 1844. William Jones S/O John & Sarah. Tailor.
March 17 1847. Ellin Jones D/O John & Sarah. Tailor.
I couldn't see a Robert with parents John & Sarah.
Brymbo baptism. April 23 1869.
Deborah. D/O Robert & Emma Jones. abode, Mount. Fathers Occ, Carpenter.
Wrexham marriage May 25 1874.
Robert Jones. 32. Bachelor. Joiner. Brymbo. Father John. Occ, Farmer.
Charlotte Smith. 22. Spinster. Wrexham. Father, George. Occ, Labourer.
Witnesses. Thomas Rogers & Sarah Smith.
Gwersyllt baptisms.
March 5 1876. Emily. D/O Robert & Charlotte Jones. Gwersyllt Hill. Joiner.
Jan 20 1878. Walter S/O Robert & Charlotte Jones. Gwersyllt. Joiner.
Paul.
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So Robert's first wife was Emma. Good one Paul :D
Now, we need a marriage for them, if you have a chance, please - L yn Ial or Brymbo, I would think :)
Gadget
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I'll have a look. I didn't have time today I was a bit up to my whotsits in look ups.
Paul
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North Wales BMD have a marriage, Wrexham -civil marriage 1866:
Robert Jones with an Emma Thomas as a possible spouse.
So if it's this one the marriage won't be in the parish records.
Gadget
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That's where Ive been ;D there's also a Wrx Civil 1866 to Emma Humphreys WM///010/89 :(
Paul
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Looks like it might be that birth cert for Deborah then :-\
Gadget
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I'll check on the 1871 for an Emma Cuffin (nee Humphreys) - m. to Thomas Cuffin - or and Emma Jones (nee Thomas) - m to David Jones.
Gadget :)
Nothing so far :(
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Not sure is this is helpful, but I checked the Minera Burials 1847-1899 and found this
Jul 6, 1870 JONES, Emma age 3 weeks, abode Adwy'r Clawdd
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I couldn't see a marriage for a Robert Jones & Emma 1855-1869 in Brymbo or Llanarmon :(
There was a baptism for another child of a Robert & Emma Jones in Brymbo.
Dec 26 1866. Harriet. d/o Robert & Emma Jones. Moss, Broughton. Fathers Occ. Labourer :-\.
Brymbo burial.
Emma Jones. Abode, Pentre. March 31 1870. Age 28 years.
Charlotte Smith. W.R found in Isycoed.
Jan 31 1852. Charlotte. d/o George & Anne Smith. Cacca Dutton. Labourer.
Siblings.
Feb 10 1833. Harriet.
Aug 17 1834. Jane.
Feb 21 1837. John.
April 3 1840. Lucy.
April 9 1843. George.
Fed 21 1846. Thomas.
May 6 1849. Emma.
Oct 24 1854. Sarah.
Dec 27 1857. William.
Isycoed marriage Aug 25 1832.
George Smith(X) of Holt. (within the Chapelry of Is-y-coed)
Anne Clutton(X) of Holt. (within the Capelry of Is-y-coed)
Witnesses. Thomas Clutton & Catherine Higgins.
Paul.
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Hi
There were another Robert Jones and Emma in Brymbo - checked on 1871 census. This Robert was a 'labourer - colliery' :-\
Gadget
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Sorry it's been a while - I've been waiting for the certificate. When it didn't arrive I emailed GRO and they say one hasn't been sent as details didn't match a father Robert and mother Emma.
Wrexham
Mar q, 1869, vol 11b, page 322
When I ordered in the reference checking bit I did give the other reference you listed, but they haven't commented on that one.
In view of the many references to Robert & Emmas that have been mentioned do you think it's worth sending for the other certificate, ref:
June q, 1869 vol 11b, page 300
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It might be worth it as the June quarter was April - June and births registrations were often delayed or not even registered :-\
Gadget
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Hi Paul
Sorry it's been a while - the birth certificate took more than 10 days to arrive, meanwhile I've been on holiday.
Well, the eventual certificate shows (and I got them to check mother was Emma, father Robert) that the mother's former name was Thomas, her residence being Mount, Brymbo - father's profession was joiner.
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North Wales BMD have a marriage, Wrexham -civil marriage 1866:
Robert Jones with an Emma Thomas as a possible spouse.
So if it's this one the marriage won't be in the parish records.
Gadget
GRO|Ref - Sept Q, 1866, Wrexham, vol 11b page 452
:)
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Hello there
Robert is also in my family tree, do you his mother down as Margaret?
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Good morning, We've established that my Robert Jones' mother was Margaret and his father was John. The trouble with searching a name like Jones (esp in Wales) is that unless you have lots of siblings/children it is difficult to prove. Perhaps, your Robert is a cousin of mine - did he come from Llanarmon Yn Yale?
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Yes he did come from Llanarmon, it was one of his sibling's Mary is a greatgreatgreat grandmother of mine. Roberts mother and father that I have are also called Margaret and John. Margaret was born C.1808. I can't remember what year John was Ill have to check.
What relation is Robert to you? Its a small world isn't it.
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Could I just clarify that there are two Llanarmons in Denbighshire. Llanarmon yn Ial (near Ruthin) and Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog at the Oswestry end of the county.
I noticed on the other thread that you have Oswestry roots, FamilyDigger. Could you mean the Llanarmon DC one?
Robert Jones marrying a Margaret is not all that uncommon - I've got two sets :-\
Gadget
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My husband side of the family is oswestry - even though that's where I lived, and my side of the family is flintshire, warwickshire and Denbighshire - Llanarmon (near Ruthin) is where alot of my family (mums side) are from too, not Llanarmon DC.
There are alot of similarities, including the year of birth, parents names and the area which they were born. But granted, Robert Jones is a common name.
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FamilyDigger
I'm so sorry, but I appear to have given you duff information about my Robert Jones' mother. I told you she was called Margaret, when in fact she was called Sarah. She (Sarah) and husband John are listed on the
1851 census, with their young family (including Robert). John & Sarah can be found in later censii but without Robert who would have left home by then.
HO107/2504 Folio 27 Page 14
Brenhinlle or Bronhinlle, Chwyleiriog, Llanarmon in Yale, Ruthin
John Jones, 34, farmer of 13 acres, b.Abergele
Sarah, 33, b. Lanarmon Yale
Robert, 10, scholar, b. Lanarmon Yale
Jabez, 8, scholar, b. Lanarmon Yale
Anne, 6, scholar, b. Lanarmon Yale
Sarah, 3, b. Lanarmon Yale
Do these names ring any bells?
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No thats not the one which I have :-( thought we could have worked together to gain further lineage. Oh well.
Good luck on your hunt though, its the problem with Jones, Evans and Roberts there's millions of them.
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I also have a Robert Jones from Llanarmon Yn Ial. Born in 1837, he was the son of Simon Jones (1790) & Mary Smith. Roberts siblings were Catherine (1825), Thomas (1827) & John (1835) - (all dates circa)
Robert Jones marries Mary Northey (nee Harper) and their children include Robert (1867), Sarah Ann (1869), and Emily (1871) and settled in Bersham near Wrexham.
Simon (1790) (Robert Jones Snr's father) was the son of Thomas Jones and Catherine Davies. Their horde ;D of children (Simons siblings) were all born in Llanarmon Yn Ial and were Elen (1773), Thomas (1775), Edward (1777), Catherine (1780), John (1782), Gabriel & Evan (1785), Jane (1788), William (1792), Mary (1793) and Hugh (1795).
I have already been in contact with 3 modern day decendents of these different siblings but are any of these names/dates familiar?
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Unfortunately your folk are not the same people as in my tree, although the dates are similar - although I think that Simon (your Robert's father) was more likely to be a sibling of my Robert's grandfather being born in 1790. I'll keep an eye on this in the future. Thanks for your interest.