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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: honey-roma88 on Saturday 17 May 08 16:17 BST (UK)
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Hello,
A bit of an odd one here. These are my great grandmother's sister's children. I know that one is a boy (Johnny Holland) and one is a girl. My problem is I have no idea which is which. I would guess that the older child with the bonnet is the girl but her hair is so short so I am a bit confused.
Johnny grew up into a very handsome man but sadly the little girl died aged about 5 when her father came home drunk and threw her in the air, dropping her on her head. I have a picture of the parents sometime after the tragedy and I think you can see the strain on their faces even after those years. :(
Thank you in advance for your time. :)
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/ssssssssssssss.jpg)
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From initial reactions, I would say almost certainly, left (oldest) girl and right (youngest) boy
Mudge
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What a heartbreaking story. What sort of date would it have been?
Elin
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They are both particularly beautiful children and you are right, it's difficult to say which sex is which.
I think the bonnet is the clue, and therefore the older child is the girl - does that mean that she is the one who died? How horrible. :(
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Thank you Mudge and IgorStrav. It has been so irritating not knowing so it is great to get some confirmation. :)
Elin - I think it would have been taken around 1911 because Johnny (John Richard Holland) was born about 1911.
I think she would have died soon after this picture was taken. She was definitely no older than five and she looks about 3/4 here. I will post the picture I have of her parents. I think Jack (the father) was of Irish descent and Charlotte (my gg aunt) was of Romany descent. I think the children look more like their dad. Jack adored his kids, he wasn't a bad man at all and was devastated at his daughter's death. :(
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001.jpg)
Thank you all so much for helping. :)
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Hi
They look a nice couple. They must have been devasted.
I know you didn't request it, but here's a quick cleanup of the 2nd photo for you
Mudge
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I had been thinking that if it was earlier the boy might possibly have been in a dress as I have a photo of a young male relative dressed in that way. Not by 1911 though and the older child does look female.
The poor father it must have been a terrible thing to have to live with.
Elin
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Thank you elin, I think you are right. It does seem a bit late for boys to be in dresses still and she does look female but is a little bit ambiguous...if you know what I mean.
Mudge - thank you so much. That is lovely, they look more serene in your picture. Beautiful. :)
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my one
Irene
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Hi Roma..............Sorry to hear of the tragic story behind this family, I could imagine the tremendous strain there would have been.
Carolyn :)
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Sorry...but I think the oldest child is the boy just by the hands and the haircut and the shape and size of the head.... very striking lovely children.
mab
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Hi Roma..........Heres another colour version for you.
Carolyn :)
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Wow, how lovely to wake up and find all this. :D
saddles, they are both gorgeous. :)
niksmum, thank you that is lovely. :)
forthefamily....I know, it is strange isn't it which is why I have been having so much trouble. I wish I could find her birth or death and then I could perhaps work out how old she would have been. I might have to go back to ancestry and trawl the death records.
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Hello I just wondered if this picture of the boy Johnny at about 11 would help. I think he looks quite a bit like the older child now...I am so confused... :(
I put a red dot on Johnny to see if anyone has a better idea than me, I'm not very good with this sort of thing. Sorry there are so many circles and words but it was already like that so I better to use this one.
I know it's not a great picture but I thought the eyebrows and eyes look more like the older child who I had always thought was the girl. ???
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/sc00157e8e01copy.jpg)
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Wow. What a great picture to have..... ;D
Hmmmmm.....yes the eyes and the cheekbones and the shape of the mouth....I still think the oldest is Johnny but as you say it's difficult.
mab
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What a wonderful photo! I think that the baby and the older child would have been very alike, their eyes look identical to me. :-\
I wish we could know for sure!
Elin
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What a wonderful photo! I think that the baby and the older child would have been very alike, their eyes look identical to me. :-\
I wish we could know for sure!
Elin
I agree they look really similar but I always thought the baby's eyes looked more intense. I am completely confused, to me it looks like an older girl with her baby brother but the girl isn't completely feminine enough to be certain... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Just a thought - if you know the family, can't you look on BMD to see the births of the children?
Then surely there will be either a girl first, followed by Johnny, or Johnny first, followed by his sister.
Then you could look up the BMD to find when the little girl died?
That would surely prove without further doubt who was the older and who was the baby in the picture?
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Sorry! Missed where you suggested this earlier. :-[
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If you let us know the locations, we could do a BMD lookup.
There's
John R Holland Oct qtr 1911 in Bolton, Lancs - mother's maiden name Cunliffe
John R Holland Oct qtr 1911 in Lambeth - mother's maiden name Putland
John R Holland born in 1912 in Spalding, Lincs - mother's maiden name Bower
Several female Holland births in Bolton in 1908, and in Lambeth. Can't see a likely one in Spalding.
Any help?
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Can't help myself! ::) I have been looking on ancestry. There is an Adelaide B. Holland born 1908 and died 1912 in Birmingham. Any possibility, I don't think you said where they were from?
Elin
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Thank you elin and Igor Strav. :)
I'm not sure it could be the Adelaide one as they were from Lambeth and as far as I know they never moved (although that is such a pretty name). :)
John R Holland Oct qtr 1911 in Lambeth - mother's maiden name Putland
That is him, his mother was Charlotte Putland and his father was John 'Jack' Holland. I am related to the mother. I wondered if the girl may have been born before Johnny because there are no other Holland babies born to a Putland mother on ancestry.com so perhaps she was born before they put the mother's name onto the site...if you see what I mean.
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I have put all three faces on one image, and I think, having looked at them - that the elder child is Johnny.
There is a shadow under the eyes which seems to be reproduced in the picture of him when older. Hope this will come out so you can see.
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However, I can't see another Holland child on Ancestry with the mother's name Putland - which must mean that the birth was BEFORE 1911 when the maiden name was shown.
Back to the drawing board!
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Births
Doris Hilda Holland 1907 Lambeth
Ena Holland 1907 Lambeth
Harriet Maud Holland 1907 Lambeth
Phyllis Hyde Holland 1907 Lambeth
Emily Grace Holland 1908 Lambeth
Will look through deaths
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Am struggling, here. There is one possible death:
Deaths
Jane Holland born about 1908, died 1912 Apr Qtr Camberwell, Surrey.
this is close to Lambeth. Can't see any matching Lambeth deaths.
However I can't see Jane's birth in 1908 in either Lambeth or Camberwell.
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Could be this one:
Jane Elizabeth Holland Jul qtr 1908 Southwark.
Close by both Lambeth and Camberwell
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Oh wow, thank you so much igorstrav.
The Jane Elizabeth Holland could well be her. Charlotte had three sisters Jane, Elizabeth and Julia (my g grandmother) so it is possible she named her after two of her sisters.
So do you think Jane Elizabeth Holland was born in 1908 in Southwark and died in 1912 in Camberwell? I might just have to order some certificates I think. ;D
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Well done, IgorStrav! That does sound promising. :)
honey-roma , do let us know what you find out.
Elin
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Well done, IgorStrav! That does sound promising. :)
honey-roma , do let us know what you find out.
Elin
Thank you all so much for helping me. I think I will order some certificates and will tell you all as soon as I know. :D
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Having just found this, I can't leave it without saying...
The bonnet matches the dress....
A boy in a bonnet? Oh come ON.
....waiting to be proved wrong.....but I think the older one is the girl.
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i tought that too Paula--'a boy in a bonnet!!', plus----i know boys wore dresses at one time [i have a picture of my dad as a baby in a crocheted one] but don't you think it's a bit too dressy for a boy? too much lace??
chris.
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Yes, chris, I think you are right there, it is a bit girly, isn't it.
Bet your dad looks good in his frock.
I've got one of my uncle....he grew to over 6 ft tall, in a fetching broderie anglaise creation...
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Hi Everyone,
I have only just found this thread! Not one of you has mentioned how like the Father the children are! They are a truely lovely family!
They all have the Irish eyes, my opinion is that no boy, even in the days when they wore dresses would be wearing so much lace as well, round the neck certainly, but NEVER on a skirt, and I do agree with Paula about the bonnet.
There is nothing odd either in the eldest child having shorter hair! They used to cut it! QED. ;D
Rabbit B ;)
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Another thought.
If Johnny was born in Oct qtr, 1911, and I think if he is the baby then he is about six months old, here, then the picture will be taken in the April qtr of 1912.
And if Jane Elizabeth Holland is the correct name, then she died in that quarter.
So if we are right, then you are correct in saying that she died very soon after this photograph was taken.
What a very sad story. Given the great family likeness of both children, I think the parents must have had a reminder every day, looking at Johnny, of the loss of their daughter. :(
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Thank you all so much.
I agree that the older one looks like the girl. I had seen boys in dresses and when I saw the bonnet I thought it had to be the girl but never could get the boyishness of the older child (and similarity to Johnny as a grown boy) out of my mind. I know they used to cut hair but it looked like quite a boyish cut, I have never seen a girl around that time with a boyish haircut before so I wasn't sure. :)
Rabbit - they look just like their dad don't they (i think i mentioned it earlier), don't look a thing like Charlotte and she was a striking lady. Definitely beautiful Irish eyes. :)
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perhaps she was a bit of a tomboy?
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Hiya all
Sorry I have to say I think the older child is a boy
Willow x
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Just a thought about the hair...
Looking at the way it seems to be pulled to the back of the neck...could it be bunched, that's why it looks short...................
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OK, for what it's worth, when I first looked at the photo right at the beginning of this thread, my immediate reaction was ... the boy is definitely the elder of the two children.
Might I suggest you take a look at this:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/moc/collections/costume/boys/boys_trousers/index.html
It explains about 'breaching' and that it could have taken place at any time when the child was between the ages of 4 and 8 years. It also gives a picture of a 4 year old (don't cheat and read the blurb - see if you can guess 'its' sex!)
I have a photo of my grt.grandfather (David - together with his Mother), taken on his 7th birthday in 1867. He has shoulder length, wavy hair and is wearing a dress (decorated at the neck and cuffs with lace), peeping beneath which can clearly be seen a lace or broderie anglaise underskirt or slip. In addition, he is also clearly wearing frilly 'bloomers'. Clearly, my David wasn't breached until after his 7th birthday - I'd like to think that 'out there somewhere' is a picture of him in his first trousers, being a farmer in a skirt would have raised all sorts of uncomfortable questions!!
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My grandmother dressed my father as a girl until he was five complete with ringlets and dress
He was born 1924 but his twin sister died at birth so we don't know if it was a reaction to that
Willow x
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It is such a puzzle isn't it?
Thank you all for your time and help. :)
Willow - how tragic, I wonder if it was the death of the sister that led to it. :(
EDIT - I have just ordered the Jane Holland death certificate which may help clear things up if it is her.
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Hi honey-roma88
Please let us know the verdict when you get it!
Rabbit B ;)
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Hi honey-roma88
Please let us know the verdict when you get it!
Rabbit B ;)
Will do. :)
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i think johnny is the oldest as i have a family photo from the early 1900's and the boy's are wearing dresses.
is the baby in the pram wearing bows and ribbons...even back then boys didn't wear boys and ribbons! ;D
they really are nice children and its so tragic that the little girl died especially because her parents seem like such nice children...the little girls death must have haunted her father til he died! :(
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i think johnny is the oldest as i have a family photo from the early 1900's and the boy's are wearing dresses.
is the baby in the pram wearing bows and ribbons...even back then boys didn't wear boys and ribbons! ;D
they really are nice children and its so tragic that the little girl died especially because her parents seem like such nice children...the little girls death must have haunted her father til he died! :(
Yes, they were nice people. Jack was a lovely man, adored his kids so it must have killed him inside. You can see the problem I have identifying them though can't you. Some people are certain the eldest is the girl, others are certain it's a boy...I am sooooo confused. ;D
I hadn't even noticed the ribbons, I'll have to go and look again. :)
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It's true that the baby in the picture has wide bows on the shoulders of whatever the garment is it's wearing. However, these could just be the fastening of the garment, like a bib with a bow tie would be?
I think it would be possible to put either child as either gender - but what worries me is that if John R Holland (1911, Lambeth), mother's maiden name Putland, is the elder child - where is the birth reference of the baby?
I must confess I was looking in the Ancestry summary listing, not the actual BMD listings for Holland.
I will have a look - we think the elder child, girl or boy is 4 years older than the baby, do we? - in c 1915 to see if there IS a baby girl Holland with Putland as the mother's maiden name.
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There are no Holland births at all, male or female, with Putland as mother's maiden name, in 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, or 1916.
Are we therefore thrown back on the thought that the elder of the two MUST be the girl who sadly died? They had no other children, did they?
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And the last thing for tonight............I've just been explaining it to my OH and my daughter and they alternate between boy/girl for each child................is that my daughter had very fine hair when she was young and it took a very long time to grow to the length she wanted.
So if it is the girl on the left, perhaps she just had very fine blonde hair which hadn't grown a lot, yet.
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There are no Holland births at all, male or female, with Putland as mother's maiden name, in 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, or 1916.
Are we therefore thrown back on the thought that the elder of the two MUST be the girl who sadly died? They had no other children, did they?
No, no others. That baby was the last sadly. As soon as I get the death certificate I will post on here, thank you all so much for your help. :)
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I think the older one is a boy too I have seen that hair style on boyes from that time
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Hello everyone :)
I have received the certificate :D and I think it might well be her meaning the elder child would be the girl. Although I still can't be definite it does look like it is her. The father is John Holland, a hawker and she died in Southwark Infirmary. She appears to have died from Lobar Pneumonia - strangely enough the second person in my family to die from it. My gg grandfather's brother died of it after he broke his ribs being dragged by his horse on his rag and bone cart down the North End Road. I assume she must have had her ribs broken, just like Felix and infection set in. We had always assumed she had broken her neck but I suppose he would have had to turn her right over but he must have just dropped her. I will probably get the birth certificate now just to be extra sure but it seems pretty clear.
Thank you everyone for helping me. :-*
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Have a read down this, Roma
http://www.brown.edu/Courses/Digital_Path/Lungs/bronchopneumonia.htm
Many people died of Bronchitis /pneumonia. A lot was to do with the conditions they lived in. When people were ill and confined to bed, I believe the lung disorders set in.
Perhaps there were no broken ribs, but the poor lamb was injured enough to be confined to bed and deteriorated.
Which ever way, it is a tragic story.
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I know North end road well my husband used to live off there.
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Have a read down this, Roma
http://www.brown.edu/Courses/Digital_Path/Lungs/bronchopneumonia.htm
Many people died of Bronchitis /pneumonia. A lot was to do with the conditions they lived in. When people were ill and confined to bed, I believe the lung disorders set in.
Perhaps there were no broken ribs, but the poor lamb was injured enough to be confined to bed and deteriorated.
Which ever way, it is a tragic story.
Edit - I just posted your quote without reply Doh!
They were definitely very poor so it's perfectly possible but Johnny always said it was a direct result of her dad dropping her when he threw her in the air and Lobar pneumonia can be caused by infections when an individual lung is injured.
Who knows. :)
I just wish the certificate had been more conclusive, perhaps if Charlotte had registered the death because John is such a common name and I never knew his occupation. I might have to get the birth certificate just to make sure but I think it is likely that this is her.
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I know North end road well my husband used to live off there.
:D
My nan still lives on Anselm Road which is off North End Road. My family have lived in the same house since the early 1900s. :)
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Hi Everyone,
What an informative site that is! The Pictures are superb.
It is dreadful to think that this poor child might have fractured a rib when she fell and that it might have punctured her lung!
I feel for her Dad having to live with that dreadful accident!
Rabbit B :(
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Hi Everyone,
What an informative site that is! The Pictures are superb.
It is dreadful to think that this poor child might have fractured a rib when she fell and that it might have punctured her lung!
I feel for her Dad having to live with that dreadful accident!
Rabbit B :(
It is a great site. It's very interesting that it says that alcoholics are susceptible to lobar pneumonia as the my ggg uncle who was dragged down North End Road was a terrible alcoholic. He was only 32 when he died.
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Poor little soul!
I am pleased that you probably have the answer to your question. I would be inclined to get the birth certificate if you can, just to be sure.
Elin
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Hi honey-roma88,
So sorry to read about such a tragic accident. The father must have carried this burden for the rest of his life poor man. What beautiful children they are, such a wonderful photo, I've done a quick restored and colourized.
thanks for sharing
regards
gisela :)
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I suspect the customs relating to children's attire varied with region and also with ethnic and social background. This is clearly a formal portrait taken in a studio, for which the children would have been thoroughly scrubbed and dressed up. The garment with lace which the boy is wearing (for he undoubtedly is a boy) may have been handed down through the family. He's perhaps a bit too young to be self-conscious in it.
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i would say the one on the left is the girl she has the bonnett i dont thin boys wore bonnetts like that
BUBS
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Hello everyone :)
I have received the certificate :D and I think it might well be her meaning the elder child would be the girl. Although I still can't be definite it does look like it is her. The father is John Holland, a hawker and she died in Southwark Infirmary. She appears to have died from Lobar Pneumonia - strangely enough the second person in my family to die from it. My gg grandfather's brother died of it after he broke his ribs being dragged by his horse on his rag and bone cart down the North End Road. I assume she must have had her ribs broken, just like Felix and infection set in. We had always assumed she had broken her neck but I suppose he would have had to turn her right over but he must have just dropped her. I will probably get the birth certificate now just to be extra sure but it seems pretty clear.
Thank you everyone for helping me. :-*
Hi Honey-roma88
This family must have been fairly comfortable, to have afforded such quality clothing for the children. They look extremely well dressed don't they!
Rabbit B ;D
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Yes I am having trouble believing that these could be children of a hawker - they are very well dressed as are the wedding group
I think the older child is definately a boy
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Gisela - that colour and restore is superb. Thank you so much.
rabbit, cheshire and luas - they definitely were not wealthy. Charlotte (their mother, my ggg aunt) was a Romany gypsy. ;D Not exactly the top end of the food chain. I have no idea how they got such beautiful clothes but I think it is highly likely that Jack was a hawker seeing as half my family were.
Thank you everyone for your help on this matter, I think the death certificate is fairly conclusive although irritatingly vague. I still can't make up my mind by just looking at the children themselves. ;D
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Gisela - that colour and restore is superb. Thank you so much.
rabbit, cheshire and luas - they definitely were not wealthy. Charlotte (their mother, my ggg aunt) was a Romany gypsy. ;D Not exactly the top end of the food chain. I have no idea how they got such beautiful clothes but I think it is highly likely that Jack was a hawker seeing as half my family were.
Thank you everyone for your help on this matter, I think the death certificate is fairly conclusive although irritatingly vague. I still can't make up my mind by just looking at the children themselves. ;D
Hi honey-roma88,
I think that people make far too much of what is and what isn't! Most of us have mongrel blood somewhere in the families.
My Uncle married a girl who's family were extremely wealthy, and her Dad was a rag and bone man before he got into scrap metal. Who else could afford to run a Rolls before the war.
I still think that the children are most beautifully dressed all things considered!
Rabbit B ;)
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I'd missed your posting when you confirmed the death as the young girl, Honey Roma, but this picture is a particularly haunting one for some reason, so I was glad to see it at the top of the board again and catch up with the details.
What happened to Johnny? Do you know his later history?
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Hello
I know this is bringing up a very old post but I have recently discovered the truth and I thought I would just share it with you. I never go on here anymore but today I received a death certificate which I am now certain is the girl.
The boy is the older child and the girl is the baby. Her name was Florence Lilian Holland (named after her cousin Lilian Florence Tarling no doubt) and she died aged 21 months (so not long after this photo was taken) of encephalitis (8 days) - which I believe is usually caused by an infection so either the doctor saw swelling in the brain and assumed encephalitis or her father was unfairly blamed for her death or perhaps the injury caused an infection to enter her brain...Who knows? ???
Either way I would just like to say thank you so much to everyone who answered me and helped so much and a special thank you to all of the people who took time to restore the photos I posted. I am so glad I finally have her name now and can put her in the family tree with a name and a face rather than supposition.
I may not be back here for a while so apologies if I do not reply straight away. :)
EDIT - Sorry I will get to each previous reply soon but I am very busy getting ready to go back to work in Africa soon. :-\
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I'd missed your posting when you confirmed the death as the young girl, Honey Roma, but this picture is a particularly haunting one for some reason, so I was glad to see it at the top of the board again and catch up with the details.
What happened to Johnny? Do you know his later history?
I'm afraid I know very little of Johnny after his childhood. Recent searches on ancestry.co.uk have shown he married and had one child but I have no idea what happened to him. My grandmother remembers him as a very handsome young man but she was just a small child at the time so doesn't know anything else.
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Honey Roma
thank you so much for updating this story. I think you will find that many people have continued to find this picture particularly haunting.
Now I know that this lovely baby, so beautiful and so alert, died sadly shortly after the picture, it will remain haunting for me.
A particularly beautiful picture.
Many thanks for sharing it.
:)
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Honey-Roma,
Thank you so much for this story, Igor is right ... it will haunt us
Ann
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Sad, sad story. :(
Victoria