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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: netti on Thursday 15 May 08 20:07 BST (UK)
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I am hoping to find out more about an ancestor Edmund ARROWSMITH who was a private in the Rifle Brigade according to the 1861 and 1871 census.
He was born in Herefordshire, and an apprentice cordwainer there in 1851, so how would he have joined back then? I wonder if it sounded more glamorous than the local regiment!
I cannot see him on a later census so wondered if anyone knows if the Rifles were abroad for the 1881 onwards?
For ref he is
1861 First Base Rifle Brigade North Camp, Farnborough Surrey RG9/435/29 pg 10
and
1871 Infantry Barracks, Woolwich RG10/781/31 pg 20
Aiming to find his service record eventually if at all possible.
thanks for reading
netti
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I cannot see him on a later census so wondered if anyone knows if the Rifles were abroad for the 1881 onwards?
Hi,
The Rifle Brigade had 4 separate regular battalions at this time, so the key is knowing which he was in (also possible of course that he switched battalion).
Do the first pages of those census enumerations not give further details. Sometimes you'll find they give the battalion. If not, someone can perhaps deduce the battalion from the officer's names.
1st Btn:
1861 - England/Ireland/Canada
1871 - England
1881 - India
2nd Btn:
1861 - India
1871 - England
1881 - Ireland
3rd Btn:
1861 - India
1871 - Aden/England
1881 - Ireland
4th Btn:
1861 - England
1871 - England
1881 - India
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thanks for the reply Neil
I have looked again at 1861 and the enumeration district description looks like the First Battalion - not First Base as transcribed by ancestry.
In 1871 they are at the Royal Marine Barracks in Woolwich but the Battalion is not mentioned. However the top person on the page is the same - E Bullen born Staffordshire (Major in 1861 & Lt/Colonel in 1871) so I guess it is still the first Battalion.
Now I have this info can you tell me where they were in 1891 and 1901? I have not found a death or marriage in England for him.
thank you
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Hi Netti
You are correct, Ancestry have indexed "Batt'n" as Bass. For anyone else looking for Edmund, he is recorded as "E" in 1861, and in 1871 as "Edmond".
I would be surprised if he was still serving in 1891 and 1901 because of his age. You do not mention 1881. If you have found him can you say how Ancestry have indexed him?
If he died in service his papers would have been destroyed 20 years later. But even so, as you know his battalion/regiment you should be able to follow his service using the Muster and Pay Lists - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
Starting in 1861 you could work back to find his enlistment. And working forward from 1871 you can find what happened to him. However, these are original documents and you or your researcher will have to visit Kew.
As Neil says he could have transferred to another battalion, or even to another regiment, and may have retired/died in either India or Ireland. What is the last definite sighting of him?
Ken
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thanks for the reply Ken
I can't see him in 1881 in England/Wales but Neil says above that the 1st were in India in 1881?
So the 1871 is the last definite sighting.
I cannot get to Kew so would like to engage a researcher if possible as I think the information would make a great present for a family member who has links to the Green Jackets!
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Ken, you'd be surprised how long men lasted in the Regs... ;)
Count the GCCs!!! :o :o :o :o :o
And he's still a private soldier!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/IMG_0241.jpg)
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hi netti,
just been reading about your rifle brigade granfer in 1861 and 1871 in your request in 2008.My great granfer was also rifle brigade 1861 in farnborough and 1871 at woolwich.My man was in canada 1866-1870 in the fenian uprising and returned to woolwich,but i can,t find him in army after that.I wondered if you had found a magic solution to the problem.My man was in 1st battalion and his reg. no was 687.
thanks for reading
jaycem
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Hi there jaycem
No good news I'm afraid. I went to Kew and searched through the pension records (now indexed on ancestry) but no sign of him. I did find him mentioned in the London Gazette - they were advertising for his next of kin to come forward to claim his estate (princely sum of £2). The first mention was in 1874 so I now know he died between 1871 & 1874. I couldn't find a death certificate at the time and I checked military deaths overseas as well as in this country. I wonder if his parents ever knew what became of him?
One day I hope to return to Kew and check the paylists as mentioned above.
netti
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Hi Netti
As he died in service - hence the appeal for his NoK - they would have destroyed his record 20 years after his death.
Jaycem.. they only kept records of men who served long enough to receved a pension in this period.
For both of you, if a service record was not kept, you only have the muster rolls and medal rolls to research. For the former you have to go to Kew. For the latter you can now search on Ancestry.
bte..pre WW1 service records are on Findmypast, not Ancestry.
Ken
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hi netti,
just been reading about your rifle brigade granfer in 1861 and 1871 in your request in 2008.My great granfer was also rifle brigade 1861 in farnborough and 1871 at woolwich.My man was in canada 1866-1870 in the fenian uprising and returned to woolwich,but i can,t find him in army after that.I wondered if you had found a magic solution to the problem.My man was in 1st battalion and his reg. no was 687.
thanks for reading
jaycem
687 Pte James Oliver? He's on the medal roll for the Canada GSM.
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/canada_general_service_medal.htm
That means he was still alive in 1899 - this was one of those medals that was only issued years after the fact.
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Thank you Ken, my mistake about ancestry/FindMyPast - was posting from memory there!
Not sure I'll ever find out where he died by the sound of it...
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An update 10 years later...
I eventually found a death certificate and Edmund Arrowsmith died at Dover in Nov 1871 from TB. He is buried at St James, Western Heights, Dover.
From newspaper reports I found the 1st Battalion had only arrived at Dover a few months before from Woolwich (where he was at the time of the 1871 census).
I still hope to get to Kew one day and try to find out when he joined up.