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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: li91mo on Saturday 10 May 08 21:46 BST (UK)
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I am reasearching Henry O'Neill/O'Neil who was born 23 November 1883 in Oldham to Henry O'Neill and Elizabeth Rouke.
Henry Jr married Mabel Brunnen in Bolton in 1919, but was a widower when he married, he had children from his previous marriage.
Would appreciate any help in finding any information on him.
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Hi
Do you have census information? In 1891, Henry Jnr whith parents Henry and Elizabeth are lodging at 47 Dawes St, Bolton with
James and Kate Gavan and two year old Annie.
I can get full details. I'm not sure what you're short of.
Best wishes
Emms.
PS Update:
There's A Henry O'Neill married by 1901 to Sarah, with baby Herbert, at 25, Hanson St Oldham,
age slightly out at 26, Sarah 32, but I can't see another entry that fits.
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Hi Emms
I am not currently subscribed to any census site so I haven't got this information. I am waiting till I receive the marriage certificate I ordered so I have the parents age before I subscribe to a census site. I was at a complete loss with this branch, as O'Neill is a common name and also the spelling keeps on switching. I am only now able to start researching it as we happened to find his birth certificate at my nan's house.
Thank you for your help, using this information I think I have found them on the 1881 census, lodging at 32 Back Dawes street. Did the info you found say the were also born in Bolton? On the 1881 census Henry Snr's occupation is given as a Slater's Labourer which is also how he is described on Henry Jnr's marriage certificate. So I think this is them. Thanks
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Hi
I'll get all the census info for you. Slater is definitely familiar, I think the wife was born Bolton but I'll check it out.
I didn't want toflood you with stuff you'd already got though. I'll get back to you.
Meanwhile, anything I can help with, let me know. I'll look at 1871 too.
Emms
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Hi Again!
1891 Ref is RG 12/3122
45 Dawes St
James Gavan(25) an out porter (employed) and Wife Kate(30)
with daughter Annie(2)
Lodgers
Henry O'Neil (34, slater) and Elizabeth (32 cotton doubler), both married presumably to each other and employed.
Son Henry,7
All born Bolton escept James Gavan who is born Liverpool.
I'll get back to you
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
1901 has Oldham St James - Ref RG 13/3817
25 Hanson St
Henry O'Neill (26, filer and cutter) and wife Sarah (32), with son Herbert, 3 months. All born Oldham.
Only thing that doesn't wuite fit is Henry Jnr born Oldham or Bolton. Censuses aren't perfect, but I'll see what else there is.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
Howabout these in 1871, lodging at 29 Back Dawes St, Bolton??
[RG10/3940]
Bolton Church District
29 Back Dawes St
Alice Wallace Wife Mar 31 Factory Hand
William do Son 8
Elizabeth do Dau 4
Peter do Bro inLaw 18 Labourer
Henry O'Neil Cousin 17 Factory hand
All born Bolton
I'll have another look.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hello you two,
Henry and Elizabeth married in Bolton September quarter 1880 Bolton Vol 8c pg 424.
(apologies if you already have this)
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1871 RG10; Piece: 3943; Folio: 65; Page: 19
12 Chapel Alley Bolton
Lizzie Rourke 12 yrs with mother Margaret (born Ireland) and other siblings all born Bolton.
Can post if or when you need the info.
(no Elizabeths)
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Hi again.
Heywood, sorry but am I being a bit slow here, do I gather the Elizabeth Henry meeried was Elizabeth Rourke, on the GRO?
Probably just me being slow!
Emms
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more like me probably going off at a tangent - the first post says that Henry (who is being searched for) is the son of Henry O'Neill and Elizabeth Rouke.
You found (probably) Henry snr in Back Dawes Street in 1871 and I found a possible Lizzie Rourke in 1871.
I also posted their marriage to support the Bolton v Oldham argument. :D
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Lancashire BMD has Henry born Oldham - mother's name Rorke - it does seems a bit odd the Bolton/Oldham connections.
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Hi, no it's me.
Must be the heat! I thought I'd checked right back to the top and I evidently hadn't!
Emms
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Hi again
Thanks to both of you for your help on this. I had already found Henry Snr and Elizabeth's marriage index and have ordered a certificate. Should be here next week. But I think that you two have probably found the right couple on the cenuses. The certifcate will hopefully confirm it.
The Lizzie Rourke sounds like it could be Elizabeth too.
I suppose it is possible that Henry Jnr just happened to be born in Oldham, when his family was based in Bolton, they are not a million miles away. He certainly spent most of his later life in Bolton. Maybe later on they just said he was born in Bolton as he never lived in Oldham.
The only thing that I have doubts about is the 1901 entry for Henry Junior and his wife and son. The census says he is 26 but he should be only 17. And strange that the mention of Oldham is back. Also we know that his second wife (married 1919) raised some of his children, so I was thinking he married for a first time later. Henry Jnr served in the Royal Engineers, so perhaps he was abroad and not included on the 1901 census.
Most of my other relations have fairly unusal surnames and so posed a lot less of a problem tracking down! Extremely grateful for all your help.
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Hi
Yes, I see what you mean, and actually I should have looked again, as that's the first one I looked at, so I started in Oldham.
There's at least one possibility in Bolton.
This one still has very young children for the father Henry snr, if it's them and not sure of the ages. henry jnr isn't with them if it's them.
RG13/3626
Bolton,
Bolton le Moors, Holy Trinty,
T's Yard
Henry O'Neil (47, Blacksmith's lab'r?0 and Lizzie (32)
with daughters, Lily(6), Ethel(3) and Alice 6m.
Notsure
Will look again.
Emms
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Hi
FullBMD Images has:
Birth 1883, Oc-Dec
O'Neil, Henry, Oldham, 8d 607
Only Henry O'Neil(l).
Will check the other dates later.
Haven't checked O'Neal(l) for any of it.
Emms
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Lancashire BMD has a marriage for Henry O'Neill and Sarah Rogerson 1899 Oldham St James.
Can't see a death for a Sarah between 1901 and 1919.
Am I right that you think that Henry and Sarah of 1901 may not be the ones you need? If there were older children as you say from his first marriage - do you know the names and could you get a birth certificate for one of them?
This may narrow the search.
best wishes
heywood
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Hi again
Thanks again for all your help, you are all most helpful! I think that although he was born in Oldham, I think Bolton is the place to look for.
Yes Emms, that is the correct Birth Index for Henry, I order a copy and that is how I found out that his parents were Henry O'Neill and Elizabeth Rourke. Their marriage certificate should be on its way now. Once I get it I can check their ages against the possible census ages you have both found.
We know very little about Henry Jnr and about the children he had from his previous marriage. We know there was definitely a boy, but we think there were more. No idea of their year of birth or their names.
Henry Jnr married for a second time in 1919 in Bolton. His second wife raised the children form his first marriage, that is why I was not expecting to see him with children on the 1901 Census as they would be too old by 1919 to need to be raised by the second wife.
Do either of you know anything about searching military records? As I know he served in the Royal Engineers.
Anyway all your help is much appreciated
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Hi
I'm no expert, and there are great military boards on Rootschat, but he would barely have been old enough for the Boar War, and if he served in WW!, there should be a medal card for him which would give his number but iI guess there will be too many Henry O'Neals to recognise it. If We're lucky his pension records could have survived.
I'll look what's on Ancestry.
I'll get back.
Emms
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The only other information I have is from Henry Jnr's marriage certificate, his address is given as Bank Street Bolton. His profession as 'Sapper 341541' and the what looks like 'R.E.' (assume Royal Engineers) then two illegible words and then 'machinist'.
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Hi
I've looked on the medal cards and there is one for what looks like Henry in the Royal Engineers, but it will only give what you already have.
I've had a look at the service records but only a small proportion survive and they atre not all on line yet.
There is a Henry who was born in Oldham and enlisted in Bolton but not in the RE and not with this number. A relative?
I'll have another look and get back to you and pm any relevent information.
As you know the regiment, you might get a lot of help off the military boards, from someone who knows what there is of the engineers records and where it is.
Best wsihes
Emms
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Hi
I'm not sure if the medal cards on Ancestry are completed but the number doesn't correspond with yours. Some people had more than one number, but I'll check on the National Archives.
Emms
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I have put a post up on the military boards and they are helping me explore his military side.
Been looking at the freeBMD site.
There are two possible marriages which could be Henry Jnr's first marriage:
Marriages Dec 1898 (>99%)
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HARTIKEN Ellen Bolton 8c 649
MCGRATH Patrick Bolton 8c 649
O'Neil Henry Bolton 8c 649
Sumner Elizabeth Bolton 8c 649
This one seems a bit too early.
Marriages Jun 1905
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O'Neill Henry Bolton 8c 682
O'Rourke Mary Bolton 8c 682
WALSH Robert Bolton 8c 682
Willis Mary Ellen Bolton 8c 682
This one seems more possible, especially as I have also found the following information.
Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%)
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O'NEILL Mary E 33 Bolton 8c 715 (born approx 1885)
Births Dec 1911 (>99%)
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O'Neill Lily Willis Bolton 8c 825
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1914 (>99%)
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O'NEILL Edward Willis Bolton 8c 876
So that would fit as we know his first wife died and his second wife raised his children from that marriage (the youngest would have been 5 at the time). But it really is just guest work. Can anyone think of a way of checking without having to order the certificate?
Also someone previously mentioned the Boer war. I think he would have been around 18 at the time of the second war, and I cannot help thinking this might be a link to his second wife's as her father died in the Boer war in 1902 and was a sargeant in the Royal Engineers....
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agree that the Willis-O'Neill looks very plausible - if it is possible I think it worth you sending for that certificate.
Do you have any info re his second marriage- perhaps he was married at same church adn you may be able to check records.
Well done so far.
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I have finally got the copies of the marriage certificate for Henry O'NEILL (snr) and Elizabeth Rourke.
They were married at St Patrick Catholic Church in Bolton in July 1880. Henry was aged 34 (approx 1846) and a labourer living at what looks like 28 Back Soho(?) Street, Great Bolton. His father is given as John O'NEILL (deceased), labourer.
Elizabeth was 31 (approx 1849) living at 36 Back D???? Street, Great Bolton (it could be Dawes, which would match a census but it is hard to read). Her father was Thomas ROURKE (deceased) a labourer.
The witnesses were Patrick O'NEILL and what looks like an Ann REDDY or KEDDY.
Will have a look at the information you have all given me and see if it matches.
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Hi
Thanksfor the feedback. I'm glad you're moving on.
Emms
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me too.
Yes Emms found Henry in 1871 in Back Dawes Street living with cousin Alice Wallace - although the ages are out I think - 17 in 1871 makes him born 1854.
I have just spotted something which could be interesting :-\
Searching for O'Neils in Bolton
1851 HO107; Piece: 2210; Folio: 40; Page: 18
has a host of people including a Mallace/Mellace family- with a John Onail father and another John and Mary Onail.
Census looks as though it could be Wallace.
Am having to go out now but would appreciate someone else's opinion and will look again when I return.
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This is what I am assuming and perhaps am totally on the wrong track: :-\
the 1851 reference has a John Onail 60ish - father to Bridget 'Wallace' and they have visitors John and Mary Onail. (Bridget has a son who I think married Alice- and Henry was living with these in 1871).
I think these are possibly Henry's parents.
1861 has John and Mary with a son Patrick (witness to marriage?) but no Henry- there is however a son Phelix aged 8 yrs. Sadly this begins to fall apart when there are births for Henry and Felix on Free BMD and Felix figures in censuses afterwards living with various family members).
In 1881 Henry and ELizabeth O'Neil are living with a group of people- including Ann Reddy. Henry's age is 30 yrs making him born 1851.
I am probably leaving you more confused than ever now. I wonder where Henry is in 1861? The other family members I have mentioned all seem to f it together but without Henry it is meaningless!
best wishes and good luck
heywood
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Hi Heywood
Thanks again for your help. I do think that the Wallace family is related. I think there is a mistake with Henry's age somewhere as I do think this is him on the 1881 census, because of the Ann Reddy link.
Been searching on Freebmd for this family. I think Alice Wallace was previously Alice Egan and married Patrick Wallace in Bolton in the 3rd quarter of 1861. Also found records for their children. Alice and Elizabeth are on the 1881 Census, joined with another child Mary (Class: RG11; Piece: 3846; Folio: 127; Page: 17). Still no Patrick, but she is not listed as a widow. There is a Patrick wallace, born c,1840 in Ireland, married but lodging with the Gilfords and others in Bolton (Class: RG11; Piece: 3842; Folio: 74; Page: 31). This could be him. He is listed as a Hawker Trip, any idea what one of those is? Is there a Patrick mentioned on the 1851 Census? Wonder why he doesn't like with his family.
So do you think the John who is visiting, is the brother of Bridget and the father of Henry Snr, making him also the son of John (Bridget's father!), if so why would he be listed as a visitor and not son? Could you tell me their ages and places of births. I will buy some credits as soon as I am not so busy at work, and know I will get some time to do some research.
John (Henry snr's father) was dead by 1880, does this fit in with the censuses?
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Yes I agree re Alice Egan. At first I was thinking that she was the O'Neill connection but then I think it becomes clearer ::)
1881 Patrick- does look like Hawker Trip (wouldn't be selling tripe??)
I'll go through everything and then you can make your mind up.
possibility??
1841 HO107; Piece 534; Book: 10; Folio: 32; Page: 6
Cross Street Bolton
John O'Neil 30 yrs Pedlar b Ireland
Mary O'Neil 30 yrs b Ireland
1851 HO107; Piece: 2210; Folio: 40; Page: 18 ( writing a bit faded)
Clarke's Entry Bolton
Peter Wallace head married 35 yrs Brazier b ireland
Bridget wife 30 yrs Cap maker b Ireland
Patrick son 11 yrs scholar b Ireland
Mary 9 yrs scholar b Bolton
Michael 7 yrs scholar b Bolton
Peggy 2 months b Bolton
John Onail father in law widower formerly labourer b Ireland
John Onail visitor 35 yrs labourer for bricksetter b Ireland
Mary o Nail visitor married 30 yrs hawker b Ireland
also
Thomas ? visitor married 30 yrs horse dealer
Mary visitor married 32 yrs hawker of Smallware
Patrick 8 scholar
Mary 6 scholar
all born Ireland
family transcribed as Feuanghty but could be anything
will do another entry now - otherwise too long. :D
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1861 RG9; Piece: 2829; Folio: 45; Page: 49
32 Back Dawes Street Bolton (again a bit faded)
Peter and Bridget Wallace together with family - especially
Patrick 21 yrs brick.. labourer
Peter 8 yrs (he lodges later with Alice??)
plus more lodger/visitors Gannon/ Barn who are Hawkers born Ireland.
Amendment (I had included a dodgy one here (the one with Phelix) but I think i found him ;D ;D ;D - he may have been found earlier I'm not sure now!)
1861 RG9; Piece: 2829; Folio: 44; Page: 48 (again faded)
39 Back Dawes Street (would you ever believe it!)
John O'Neal 40 yrs hawker b Ireland
Mary 35 yrs b Ireland
John 9 yrs scholar
Harry 8 yrs scholar
Ann 5 yrs scholar
Mary Ann 3 yrs
Hannah 2 yrs
Bridget 13 yrs cotton piecer (child?)
all listed as children and married - chidlren all born Bolton
Harry has been transcribed as Mary
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Just out of interest... (overload of information probably)
Previously there were two Wallace families- both with Bridget living in Dawes St.
1871 has the other one but brother Peter a widower is with them - so this may be the one from earlier. With them is a chap called Feeney and wondering if that was the name so oddly written earlier.
1871 - family seem to be disbanded
you have Henry with Alice Wallace
Ann O'Neil 15 yrs lodging with Healy family in Back Dawes Street
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Hi all,
I finally got round to buying some credits and having a look at the originals of the censuses you told me about, I think that we have found them all for Henry except 1901, so thank you very much, before I wrote this post I had nothing on him!
On talking with some other older family members they were surprised that he was born in England (although we have the original birth certificate to prove it) as he spoke with an Irish accent, so I suspect he went back to Ireland and so that is why we cannot find him in 1901. Anyway thanks again for all your help.
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great news - you must be thrilled.
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Hi
Looks like you're really getting somewhere!
That's brilliant!
Emms