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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Starteck2002 on Monday 05 May 08 20:21 BST (UK)
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This one isn't so far back but has me stumped :-(
Herbert George Crawley born 1892, married to Edith Mary Bridger on May 10th 1913. Married in Chichester. First child born in Chichester, address at the time was 116 Orchard Street, Chichester. They married at St Peter the Less.
Here's where the confusion kicks in....
On the marriage cert Herberts father is stated as 'Bertie Churcher' (possibly a grocers assistant but hard to read).
Because he married in Chichester i am presuming that is wher he was born. I have his service record that shows he lived in chichester and that he was a carpenter.
To cofuse things even more....
this census: Class: RG13; Piece: 977; Folio: 49; Page: 26. (Havant, hampshire)
There is a Herbert Crawley listed in the transcript as 'Grandson' but if you look at the original document it says 'S. Son' (step son?) - the ages seem to correlate this too.
If this IS my Herbert, i am VERY confused.
If anyone can help solve this riddle and put me back on track i'd really appreciate it.
Dave
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Found something :-)
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
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Marriages Dec 1897 (>99%)
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Crawley Elizabeth Portsea 2b 1038
Penn Alan Angus Portsea 2b 1038
So i presume that the following scenario is correct:
Elizabeth Crawley had an illigitimate son (Herbert Crawley) with Berti Churcher (as per Herberts marriage certificate).
When Herbert is 5 years old she marries Alan Angus Penn
So now i need to know....
details of Herberts Father - his birth entry so i can order a birth certificate....
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The first and most important lesson in Genealogy is - NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!
In your first post you are "assuming" that because he married in Chichester he was born there. THere is no evidence of this.
Secondly, you "presume" Herbert is a son of an Elizabeth Crawley - but where is the evidence of that? I would guess there are dozens of young ladies (or even not so young!) around with a surname Crawley who could have been his mother, so why do you assume it is this Elizabeth?
Or have I missed something? I have a feeling I might (!)- does the census ref give step dad as Mr Penn? I will take a look ....
(btw where did his year of birth come from?)
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Hi Lizdb
Birth year is derived from his marriage certificate (i have a copy of it) and his service record.
Marriage certificate states his father as 'Bertie Churcher' - i can't find any info on him.
Looking at the census i posted in first post, Alan Angus Penn is down as the step father, the mans wife, Elizabeth Penn was a CRAWLEY when she married him.
To me, logic dictates that Herbert has been given his mothers name of Crawley. I've been working on this one for a while and that is the best i can come up with.
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OK, I am a bit more with it now! (Sorry)
1901
Alan A Penn 29 Carpenter bn Blendwoeth
Elizabeth 32 wife bn Portsmouth
Ethel 2 bn Havant
Geoffrey A 1 bn HAvant
Herbert Crawley 9 s son bn Havant
George Green 21 boarder
I wonder if Elizabeth had been married before or if Herbert was illegit.
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I can't find any marriage for Elizabeth prior to 1897 but it is interesting that Alan is a carpenter - this is also the trade that Herbert followed and his son (my Grandfather 'Leonard' followed too).
It still doesn't lead me to a GRO ref number so i can get his birth certificate though :-(
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Here's something else intereting - though may not be linked.
I was trying to find Elizabeth Crawley in 1891. The only Crawley girl of the right-ish age born in Portsmouth is an Annie. Possible it is her - more research needed to confirm one was or t'other, but look at the entry:
RG12 866 63 29
17 Victoria Terrace Portsea
James Crawley 48 Shipwright bn Kent Sheerness
Emma 47 wife bn Portsmouth
Mary Penn dtr married 25 bn Kent Deptford
Annie dtr single 22 bn Portsmouth
Eleanor dtr15 bn Portsmouth
Margaret dtr 13 "
MAry A McInerney stepdaughter 13 bn Cape Toen Sth Africa
John Beere boarder 19
Another Crawley married to a Penn!
(and if this IS your family, looks like your search may take you via South Africa!!)
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There is a birth of a Herbert George Crawley in 1892 - but it is in Derbyshire! (ref 7b 510, Oc/Nov/Dec 1892, Derby reg distr)
So this one could be the Herbert George that married in Chichester in 1913 with the dad Bertie Churcher.
I wonder if there are two HGC's around, or if 'our' one was actually born in Derbyshire?
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Definitely two around - found the Derbyshire one in 1901, still in Derbyshire with his parents and siblings. His dad seems to be Herbert Crawley.
No reason to suppose he would be called Herbert Churcher by the time young Herb marries.
So looks like we can rule that one out, but worth keeping on back burner.
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how about :
Albert George Crawley
birth Oc/Nov/Dec 1891
Havant reg distr
ref 2b 418
AlBERT, herBERT - all called Bertie?
though I dont know whyi f he was born Albert he would be married as Herbert........
This one I fear is going to need purchase of several certificates to sort it out.
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Just following on from that 1891 census I found
Marriage
Ap/May/Jun 1883
Portsea Island reg distr
Emma Elizabeth McInerney
also on page James Crowley
was a second marriage for them both
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OK, i am lost now :-(
What is the link with James Crowley?
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none proven!
I tried to find Elizabeth Crawley in 1891, just before Herbert was born.
Only person I could find anything near was an Annie Crawley. (with a sister married to a Penn) Her parents were James and Emma. But the prescence of a stepdaughter in the h/h age 13 called McInenerny suggested that James and Emma had both been married previously, and Annie (who we dont know whether she is Elizabeth or not) would be James's daughter from a first marriage, with a mother other than Emma.
Then I found the marriage, thus confirming this.
I have tried to find the family in 1881 (JAmes and the children with a different, or no, wife) but to no avail. Nor can I find Emma McInverney, but we know she was in Sth Africa in 1848ish when her dtr was born.
What I am doing is slowly tracing this family back in the hope that I either find evidence that Annie is also k/a Elizabeth, or not. If not then we can rule this lot out altogether - it is only a remote possibility at the moment in the absence of anything else!
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Got that family in 1881 now again under Crowley
RG11 1139 83 3
27 Abercrombie Str Portsea
JAmes Crowley 38 widr Shipwright bn Ketn Sheerness
MAry 15 bn Kent Deptford
Annie 12 bn Portsea
William 6 "
Eleanor 5 "
MArgaret 3 "
James father 61? Pensioner shipwright bn Ireland
Annie has a middle initial, it is indexed as M, but image is very unclear.
Not lloking too hopeful that she is Elizabeth!
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Still Annie, and Crowley in 1871
RG10 1129 178 37
Portsea
JAmes 28 bn Sheerness
Ann 27
MAry 5
Annie 2
From index only - for some reason it wont open that image for me.
Think this might be leading up a garden path...
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... yes it is
Birth Annie MArgaret Crowley
Ap/May/Jun 1869
Portsea
so she was born Annie and always known as Annie - she is NOT you Elizabeth, so disregard all the previous posts about her.
BUT also there is
Birth
Jan/Feb/Mar 1869
Elizabeth CRAWLEY
Portsea Is reg dist
ref 2b 435
This looks likely to be your Elizabeth. Getting cert will confirm parentage. But I will try and find her in censuses.
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Ok so THIS is more likely to be your Elizabeth Crawley:
1871
RG10 1131 64 13
33 HAvant Street Portsea
House is divided into 4 households
First is William Davis, wife and Nephew.
Second is Mercy Munday, descr as married, and her 5 children
Third is:
Ellen Crawley Lodger Unm 24 Bonnet Maker bn Hitchin Herts
Ellen Crawley dtr 5 bn Portsmouth
Elizabeth Crawley 2 bn Portsmouth
Fourth is another unm mother Eliza Corner and her son.
Cant find her in 1881 though
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Hi both :)
1881
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=6518890
RG11/1137 58 33
Marriage Jun 1877 Portsea 2b 735
Ellan Crawley - John Green
:)
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Brilliant Tati!
MAkes me think even more that there is a link with that Crawley/Crowley family I spent so much time on - not only did thay have a daughter Mary who married a Penn (as did Elizabeth) but they also had a lodger called Green!!!! (and Eliz's mother Ellen married a Green!!)
Anyway - just got to find Elizabeth in 1891 just before Herbert was born.....(sense of deja vu here - I started the whole process by looking for her in 1891!)
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OK, here she is:
1891
RG12/851 68 36
Havant, Hampshire
South StJohn Green, head, 60, Labourer General, b. Nottinghamshire Nottingham
Ellen, wife, 53, b. Bedford Hitchan
Elizabeth Crawley, stepdau, s, 22, Domestic servant, b. Hants Portsea
George Green, son, 11, scholar, b. Havant
I was hoping to find a Albert/Bert etc. Churcher in the same town as her but there isn't one (well, if we rule out the boy Albert Churcher age 12 :P) Not sure how we'll identify Bertie!! :-\
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Going by Herbert's service papers, he was born about June 1891, if my maths is right.
1901 census age backs that up.
Phil :)
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going back to the 1901 census (when Eliz is Mrs Penn) the boarder, George Green must be her half brother!
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I really appreciate the work you ppl are doing... Just incase i am not reading the name 'Bertie Churcher' correctly i have put a good quality scan of the marriage cert here:
http://www.starteckonline.com/family/Documents/Marriage/Herbert%20George%20Crawley%20&%20Edith%20Mary%20Bridger%20-%201913.jpg
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Looks like Bertie Churcher grocers asst to me!
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Yes, clearly Grocer's assistant.
I'm hoping with Liz that the Albert George Crawley registered in Sep 1891 is the correct boy.
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Looks like i will have to order that certificate to find out...
Well i think i have this right:
John Crawley and Rebecca Lawrence are parents of Ellen Crawley.
Ellen Crawley has 3 children (father unknown):
Ellen Eugenia Crawley 1866–1874
Elizabeth Crawley 1869–
Theresa Crawley 1874–
She then marries John Green who has two children from a previous marriage (William Green [1865] and George Green [1880])
Ellen E Crawley goes on to have Herbert G Crawley....
So far so good.... now i need to know: Did Ellen have a husband prior to John Green (i can't find one) and who was John Greens first wife?
Thanks for all the help you are giving...
Dave
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.... now i need to know: Did Ellen have a husband prior to John Green
I wouldn't think so, given she's unmarried in 1871 and marries in her maiden name Crawley :)
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This looks like John Green in 1871, with a wife Alice
1871
RG10/1125 48 27
Havant, Hampshire
South St
John Green, head, 39, Brewers Labourer, b. Nottingham
Alice, wife, 40, b. Lincolnshire Engham?
Jane, dau, 11, scholar, b. Sussex Forestside
William, son, 6, scholar, b. Hants Brockhampton
She then marries John Green who has two children from a previous marriage (William Green [1865] and George Green [1880])
George seems to be the son of John and Ellen
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On the census they are all living at 'the old house at home', a public house along with other unmarried mothers....
is it possible this was a brothel? I am sincerely hoping we didn't have a prostitute in the family :(
Anyone know where i could find such records?
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I don't think there is any reason to suspect something like it ???
In fact I think South Street - The Old House at Home is only the household at the top of the page, showing several lodgers. From there, the address is dittoed but I think the Green's address is simply South Street.
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I've been searching for a likely Bertie Churcher ... Just throwing this one in as a more or less remote candidate
(distance Bishops Waltham - Havant: 13 miles)
1891
RG12/941 87 18
Curdridge, Bishops Waltham, Hampshire
Gibbs Farm
Henry Richards, head, 32, Dealer, b. Droxford
Margaret, wife, 30, b. do.
Albert Churcher, brother in law, unm, 19, Laborer, b. do.
Ray Churcher, brother in law, 10, b. do.
Henry Richards is a market Gardener on other census, as is Albert Churcher (now married) in 1901. Clutching at straws I guess but maybe Grocer = greengrocer = market gardener? :-\
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Looks like i will have to order that certificate to find out...
Well i think i have this right:
John Crawley and Rebecca Lawrence are parents of Ellen Crawley.
Ellen Crawley has 3 children (father unknown):
Ellen Eugenia Crawley 1866–1874
Elizabeth Crawley 1869–
Theresa Crawley 1874–
She then marries John Green who has two children from a previous marriage (William Green [1865] and George Green [1880])
Ellen E Crawley goes on to have Herbert G Crawley....
So far so good.... now i need to know: Did Ellen have a husband prior to John Green (i can't find one) and who was John Greens first wife?
Thanks for all the help you are giving...
Dave
Picking this up from just over three years ago and if you are still researching Bert Crawley / Edith Bridger I think you have a typo here in that it was Elizabeth Crawley, not Ellen E that went on to have Bert Crawley. I think the rest is right though. I have a photo of the wedding of Bert Crawley and Edith Bridger, I can't seem to attach it but will PM it if you are interested.
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Does not help you finding out your info but I live near chichester very nice town most of roads still there
Jen
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Wow - forgot all about this one. If you are still around i'd love a copy of that photo if I am not too late :-)
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Yup, still around. I'll see if I can find that photo.