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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: uk2003 on Monday 05 May 08 15:26 BST (UK)
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Thought I'd share this new venture with my fellow rootchatters ;D coz I know they luv a challenge ;D
I am trying to locate a family who perished on the Liner Lusitania in 1915.
I have no idea who they were, but they are reported to be buried in Philips Park Cemetery, Manchester.
If I can find the grave and photograph it, It will be uploaded to the findagrave.com website
Ken
Ps
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It will be a few days before they clear on the findagrave website, but I have placed the 2 graves photos and info relating to the two survivors of the Charge of the Lightbrigade, buried at Philips Park
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Hi Ken, i found the passenger list for the last crossing she made. Now all we got to do is wittle down which one buried in Phillip's park
Migky ;)
CLICK HERE 4 LIST (http://www.immigrantships.net/v4/1900v4/lusitania19150507.html)
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Hi Ken and Migky
Here are two of the same family, though only one was on the Lusitania, on the way to visit her family.
Mary Lovett, living in America was going to visit her family in Drolesdon.
William Lovett of Droylesdon died on a different occasion. Related?
http://www.billnkaz.demon.co.uk/droymem3.htm
It'd be nice to find out for the Anniversary of the sinking wouldn't it?
I've been looking out for James Hoey who also perished, He was from Meath but I think also linked to Salford/Manchester.
Best wishes
Emms
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PS Full details:
Miss Mary Lovett, civilian,
Living: Falls River Mass. USA but native of Droylesden.
Going to visit family in Fairfield Rd Droylesdon.
Drowned at sea on SS Lusiitania
Also: (Not on Lusitania)
William Lovett, Stoker 1st Class L/24481, HMS Invincible., RN
Son of Edward and Ellen Lovett, 18 Queen St, Droylsden.
Died 31st May, 1916, aged 26.
Killed in Action, Battle of Jutland.
LOVETT. WILLIAM. Stoker 1st Class. K/24481.
Also, Portsmouth Memorial.
A nice local site. Can we have them in the resources? Not sure how?
The wargraves in cemeteries are also on the Commonwealth Wargraves Site (CWGC), but it's much bigger and I didn't actually pin them down. It's nice to pin them down.
Question is, is there another grave? It does say one family, but they may not have the same name, or they may mean William.
Best wishes
Emms
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The Anniversary of the sinking if the
Liner SS Lusitania is tomorrow May 7th (1915)
A good time to remember them.
Emms
[Thank you Migky for the link. It also points out that this tragedy was probably significant in America entering the war.]
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Hi Emms
Many thanks for your input - Just when you need the Manchester burial website :(
We need to find out how old she was from the ships passenger list, any ideas on this ?
Just looking at that possible connection of Mary and William you have, I have been looking at the census info. We do find a Mary and William, but this one would be William's Aunty "nothing to say they are or not at the mo".
DATA REMOVED DUE TO BREACH OF CENSUS COPYRIGHT
If this is the lady she would be about 35 when the ship sank ???
William was lost as sea so he would have no grave, so only looking for 1 grave
Ken
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Hi All,
This is a very good Lusitania site
http://rmslusitania.info/pages/index.html
Dave
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Nice one Dave and interesting read
I did a breakdown of Saloon, 2nd & 3rd class passengers - the list below all came from 2nd class - Fall River - were British - and titled Miss apart from the Mr ;D
Wonder if they were together as a group? in different cabins
LOVETT, Miss Mary " Fall River, MA, USA
WOODCOCK, Miss Sarah Emma, British, Fall River, MA, USA
DEWHURST, Mr. William, British, Fall River, MA, USA
HIGGINBOTTOM, Miss Mary " Fall River, MA, USA
(Mary Higginbottom of Fall River, Massachusetts, United States, was on the Lusitania to go to England to comfort her parents whos sons and sons-in-law were in the Front for the British Army. On board the Lusitania, she shared a cabin with Phoebe Amory and Martha Whyatt. Mary was lost when the ship sank. Her body, if found, was not identified)
Ken
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Hi Ken,
I wonder if this little Falls River group, were somehow related to each other, or was it the start of an Ex-Pat conclave. ;)
Dave
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There is a cryptic (to me anyway) listing on the Manchester Family History society's 'Back Issues' page which lists among the articles in issue 1558 ,Vol.37 No.1 2001 -"The Reverend David Lloyd-Lusitania Victim"
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/Bookshop/mangen.htm
Which is a bit odd as the Rev Lloyd doesn't appear in the list Migky linked to - unless I missed him, which is very very possible ;D.
Anyone got a copy of Issue 1558, vol 37, no 1, 2001 out there?
:) Barbara
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Hi Barbara,
His name was mis-spelt
From '' THE LUSITANIA RESOURCE''
Rev. DAVID LOYND, Second Cabin Passenger
Reverend David Loynd, 51, was born 12 November 1862 at 157 Park Street in Bolton, England. His father William was a cotton spinner. By 1903, David had met Alice Grimshaw who was from the Tottington area and they were married at the Bury Baptist Church.
Loynd did missionary work in Indiana among other places. When the ship was struck David and Alice got into a lifeboat with Albert and Gladys Bilicke, which spilled as it was being lowered.
Alice wrote a long letter to her family which was found on her body. A copy is on file at the Cunard Archives, Liverpool University.
Dave
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Hi
You've really moved this on since I saw it!
I've been trying to find something that mentions a date or age for Mary on the Lusiotania information but no success. I was looking for the burial search too, for something else but it sounds as if I'll have to hold fore.
Keep up the good work!
Emms
Emms
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Hi Ken,
Looking at the Ellis Island admittance records for your 'group' of four, these are possibilities :-
Name - Sarah Emma Woodcack (sic)
Ethnicity - English
Residence - Oldham, England
Arrival - Oct 30 1914
Age - 30
Gender - F
Status - Single
Ship - Franconia
Departure Port - Liverpool
Name - Mary Higginbottom
Ethnicity - English
Residence - Manchester
Arrival - Aug 3 1892
Age - 32
Gender - F
Status - Single
Ship - Teutonic
Departure Port - Liverpool
Name - Mary Lovett
Ethnicity - English
Residence - ?
Arrival - Feb 25 1895
Age - 24
Gender - F
Status - Single
Ship - Etruria
Departure Port - Liverpool
Cannot find anything yet on William Dewhurst
Dave
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A friend of mine has been in touch with Manchester Burials ;D
No person called Lovett was buried in Philips Park at that time :(
The people that run
http://www.philipspark.org.uk/PhilipsPark/Medlock_Valley_Places/Philips_Park_Cemetery/
which says the reason for this hunt, don't know anything about the grave or who it is :(
The Head keeper of the graveyard has no idea either :(
So this is going to be a tough one to hunt down.
I will check the burials to see if any of the other names that Dave found show up at Philips Park.
If I get chance next week I will go to Manchester Central Library and check the newspapers for any clues.
Ken
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Might be worth burrowing through the results of a date search on
http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search2.php
This is a search engine that ties to the CWGC site but allows search by unit/date/name/ nationality or service number . The link above is for WW1 but in the blue header you will find a WW2 link which has civilain dead, not sure if they are also on WW1 list. Pete
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Hi Ken,
I wonder if this little Falls River group, were somehow related to each other, or was it the start of an Ex-Pat conclave. ;)
Dave
I think quite a few went from the Blackburn/Darwen area to Fall River, Massachussets (I know a few of mine did, and so did the family of the author of that book (recommended) Road to Nab End) as the cotton industry was big there too.
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Ken,
Might be worthwhile adding this family to your check list, they survived the sinking, but the story might have altered in the telling.
John & Gerda Welsh (nee Nielson)
31 Carlton Terrace
Gorton
Dave
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Was about to say the same thing Dave! :D I was thinking .. I suppose it would cost quite a bit to transport a victim from Ireland where Lusitanis sank, to Manchester. So this family were perhaps likely to be in the first class cabins? Or survivors, rather than victims 'on the day'?
In this list they are John and Gerda Welsh:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/articles/lusitania.php
I know it says titanica, but it is about Lusitania! It also has a description of Mary Higginbottom of Falls River. Scroll down to details for Mrs Phoebe Amory, (who met Mary on board) The Then on Lest We Forget Part 2 of the same site, there is a photo of Mary
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/articles/lusitania2.php
:) Barbara
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Hi Barbara
John & Gerda were both 3rd Class passengers and they did survive
If you have a look on the site I found in Reply #6, there is also a photo of Phoebe
Dave
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I have re-read my post and find I am burbling Dave ;D trying to say 2 things at once!
What I meant to say was -
1 if someone - don't know who yet - had perished on the Lusitania and their bodies were recovered in Ireland, it would presumably cost a lot to transport them to their home cemetery. So if victims had been carried from Ireland to Manchester for burial, chances are they would be among the more well-off passengers.
then while typing that, I found the same John and Gerda that you did and thought
2 another explanation for a burial of Lusitania passengers in Philips Park might be that they had in fact survived the original disaster and come to live in Manchester. And as you say, the Lusitania story was altered in the telling later on.
:) Barbara
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Hi
From the same link to Lest We Forget 1, have we got the Williams family from Manchester, England?
John and Annie Millman Williams were married in Manchester England in 1896.
Emigrated to New Jersey, April 1904.
John joined Cunard as a steward and returned to England on the last completed voyage.
Annie and six children were on the fatal voyage.
Edith, John Edward, George Albert, Ethel, Florence and David. Possibly three more.
Only John Edward and Edith survived. Edith married and divorced in the US and died there.
That leaves John Edward and father John. They would be survivers of a family who perished. Various fairly sad suggestions about the family.
A brilliant link though, thank you!
Emms
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Hi again.
Splitting this for simplicity.
Another couple of thoughts about cost.
When I was researching a friend's WW1 family, and looking for more details for one feasible entry on the CWGC Roll of Honour, I rang CWGC and had quite an intyeresting conversation.
The lady said that there would be a choice for any war casualties (or their families at least), as to whether they were buried where they fell or were returned home when it was feasible. I can't remember the details, but it seemed to apply to Irish dying of wounds in England, so presumably the other way round from Cobh to England.
We didn't discuss who paid or whether it was only for the military.
Another thought. A couple of times recently I've had conversations about funerals which took place considerably later and WW!, and basically it was another world.
For most people, they had to get the deceased from where they died to the burial site, themselves, by carrrying, train etc. So if there was a long journey, they simply travelled with the deceased.
No niceties or fancy arrangements and privacy. So presumably if there were family coming back to Britain, the cost would be no more than the cost of their own fare.
A daunting thought, but in keeping with most of WW1 I guess.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
I have just emailed Eric Sauder the author of "R.M.S. Lusitania: The Ship and Her Record"
Lets see if we get a reply, it's just another direction to check
Dave/Barbara
I cannot see a Gerda Welsh in the BMD index for the 2nd June 1961 (what a sad story) - but did find 2 Gertrude Walsh 1 - in Hasligden and the other in Southport ???
Emms
No burial of a Williams after 8th May 1915
I am starting to suspect they were survivors who died years later, but not giving up just yet.
Ken
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Hi
Sounds like some interesting stuff.
I can't wait for the reply!
Yes, if it were the Williams, it would be the two Johns whenever they died, possibly years later, but they would be from a family who perished because of the little children and the wife who died in the sinking.
I'll look forward to you reply though.
Good night
Emms
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I've had that reply from the Lustiania historian with a possible target person
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your e-mail. Interesting project you're working on and one of particular interest to me because one of my research in finding graves of Lusitania victims and survivors.
I looked through my cemetery list, and I didn't see anything for Philips Park, but I did find a man by the name of George Arthur Gilpin, who I have down as being buried in Manchester but with no cemetery listed. I wonder if that 's who it might be? He was lost, and his body was recovered.
I hope this helps, and if there is anything else I can do, please let me know. I'd also like to know if you have found or are looking for other Lustiania graves.
Regards,
Eric Sauder
www.northatlanticrun.com
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According to the passenger list
GILPIN, Mr. George Arthur, age 47, British, London, England, Saloon/1st class passenger
Question
If someone dies at sea how is the death recorded?
The BMD index shows nothing for this person
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Hi Ken
this looks facinating!
Have you tried the deaths at Sea part of the GRO Index. Don't think it's on Ancestry, but it's in a separate part at the end if the fiche index. In our library it occupeis four boxes of fiche along with military bmd, consular bmd, events in the air etc.
Also, I think it's on Findmypast.com. Sopme one might have that.
I was going to say it would be on the maifest, but of course that's not much use here!!
Actually, is he on the CWGC list? My James Hoey on the Lusitania is.
Just some ideas.
Thank you again for my fantastic photo's of Moston.
Emms
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I just had a quick look on FindMyPast Marine Death Index 1903 - 1965; I couldn't see any Gilpins in 1915,1916 1917 or 1918. (Don't know when they would have found the body or how long it would have taken to register).
Don't have full FindMyPast membership and only had a few credits left! So I didn't know where else to look on that site - but its a start ;D What are consular bmds? FindMyPast had those. Might he be in there?
Barbara
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Cheers Emms & Barbara
Sadly he is not on the CWGC site - tried backtracking via census reports, and it looked promising to start off with
DATA REMOVED DUE TO BREACH OF CENSUS COPYRIGHT
Cant find George
Mother has moved back to Leeds with Lily and Son-in-Law
Walter is living with his wife/family in Salford
My thinking is, if this is the right George A Gilpin to which the email relates.
He may have gone to the the USA (but cant find him on the Ellisisland website). :(
And unless Walter moved to Manchester he will be buried in Salford somewhere, seems more likely his brother would collect his body.
Just got to keep on digging
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Can I please go off topic and give you two brothers from the Liverpool area ??
Birkenhead-born Leslie Morton, aged 18, has a unique place in history for using his eyes. He was the lookout who first spotted the torpedo which sank the Lusitania as she headed for Liverpool on 7 May 1915. It was just after lunchtime on a bright, sunny day and the sea was calm when the German submarine U-20 launched its deadly attack.
As the great ship passed the lighthouse at the Old Head of Kinsale, southern Ireland, Leslie was stationed on the bow of the liner. Suddenly, he spotted thin lines of foam racing towards the ship and shouted: “Torpedoes coming in on the starboard”. A large explosion shook the Cunard vessel as the torpedo blew a large hole in her right side. The Lusitania began to sink very rapidly at the bow and within 18 minutes she was on the bottom of the Irish Sea. A total of 1,195 people died in the tragedy.
Leslie Morton and his brother Clifford, who was nearly 19 at the time of the disaster (they were not twins).
Both brothers saved many lives and Leslie was later considered to be the “outstanding hero of the Lusitania disaster”.
They joined the crew of the Lusitania as ordinary seamen in New York. The brothers were among eight crew from the Liverpool sailing ship Naiad who jumped ship to join Lusitania. All planned to join the Royal Navy once they returned to England. The Morton brothers were the only ones to survive the sinking.
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I found this ... but it says London !
GILPIN, G. A. London, England. Passenger: first class. On the Sunday, May 9, list of missing and probable dead.
http://www.relativesremembered.com/memorialtemplates/displaymemorial.php?memid=444
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I've had that reply from the Lustiania historian with a possible target person
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your e-mail. Interesting project you're working on and one of particular interest to me because one of my research in finding graves of Lusitania victims and survivors.
I looked through my cemetery list, and I didn't see anything for Philips Park, but I did find a man by the name of George Arthur Gilpin, who I have down as being buried in Manchester but with no cemetery listed. I wonder if that 's who it might be? He was lost, and his body was recovered.
I hope this helps, and if there is anything else I can do, please let me know. I'd also like to know if you have found or are looking for other Lustiania graves.
Regards,
Eric Sauder
www.northatlanticrun.com
Hi Annie
This is my posting earlier - I can only find 1 George Arthur/(A) Gilpin on any census report living between Salford & Leeds - but then again he may be down as just George Gilpin on the census and I have looked at the wrong person :P
But nothing to say he did not move to London from 1891 until his death.
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Hi
There's a George Gilpin leaving via Liverpool fpr New York in 1897 birth date unknown
Also in 1891 but George H - any chance of H being A misread?
and in 1923 George Gilpin b 1869 approx left via Belfast for Canada - Evidently not him.
Sorry, I'm not signed up to them at the moment either.
British Cunsular BMD's? I always thought that they were just that, that they were events reported to the consul and reported back to this country for recording. I think I've been told they could overlap with chaplain's returns. Of course, if he had emigrated, would he have a death cert in this country?
What about local deaths in Ireland if his body was recovered initially to Ireland?
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Again
If anyone was on the library edition of Ancestry, they can get the USA immigration records or a census in USA or Canada that might show if he emigrated.
Emms
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There is some activity at Manchester Burial Records site again! Quick, try a few names before it gets away!!
Arthur Gilpin in Philips Park but is buried 1881 - could there be a connection there?
:) Barbara
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Will jump on that Barbara - but first got to get this off my chest before my head explodes ;D
Emms I have been looking on the ellisisland.com website and found this
George Arthur Gilpin - Male - 47 and 1 month - Single - Ethenicity British?English - Place of residence Republic de Salvadore, San Salvadore (slight age difference)
His ship arrived in New York on the 23rd April 1915 (3 weeks before the Lusitania was sunk)
and it states he was on route to:
Final destination
Leeds/London England
Elizabeth Mary Gilpin (Mother) 23 Marshall st, Leeds
Whether been to USA before yes 1909 (but cant find that entry)
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Hi
Looking on the Ellis Island site, there is this, but age differs from Ken's census find
G. A. GILPIN
English
Age 41
Arrived Jan 9 1896
Departure Port Liverpool
In 1927 brother Walter is living at Birch Grove, Rusholme
Dave
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Dave
aarrgghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
spotted that one but did not see the Walter - rechecked manchester burials no Walter buried in any cemetery.
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??? ??? ??? :-\ :-\ :-\ ::) ::)
Confused!
Going to water the garden 8) 8) 8)
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This is the same guy you had Ken !! :-\ quite a traveller !! :)
New Orleans Passenger Lists 1820-1945
Name - George A Gilpin
Arrival Date - 14 Jun 1909
Age - 41
Gender - Male
Ethnic Background - English
Port of Departure - Puerto Barrios Guatemala
Ship Name - Harry T Inge
Port of Arrival - New Orleans Louisiana
Friend's Name - Banco De Salvadorina
Last Residence - Salvador
Birthplace - England Leeds
New York Passenger Lists 1820-1957
Name - George Arthur Gilpin
Arrival Date - 18 Oct 1909
Estimated Birth Year - 1868
Age - 41
Gender - Male
Port of Departure - Liverpool England
Ethnicity/Race/Nationality - English
Ship Name - Celtic
Port of Arrival - New York New York
Birth Location - England Leeds
California Passenger and Crew Lists 1893-1957
Name - Geo A Gilpin
Arrival Date - 13 Mar 1901
Age - 33 years 1 months
Birth Date - 1868
Gender - Male
Ship Name - Newport
Port of Arrival - San Francisco, California
Port of Departure - Panama
Last Residence - Salvador
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Hi
Thank you Ken. Well found! I'm with you now - I'd love to see an entry with an occupation for this guy - apapart from visitting "Banco do Salvadorina"! did he really turme almost straight back again?
Everything else seems to fit. If the Lusitania was sunk 3 weeks later off Ireland, she set off soon after he got there.
In fact I'd like to know what went on on this route. I've found passengers who carried on from USA to these South American countries, and never haad time to go into it
Keep up the good work!
Emms
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Piecing all this together what we have found out about the person George Arthur (A) Gilpin - I think the % is high that this is the same person
DATA REMOVED DUE TO BREACH OF CENSUS COPYRIGHT
Mother has moved back to Leeds with Lily and Son-in-Law
Walter is living with his wife/family in Salford
March 1901
California Passenger and Crew Lists 1893-1957
Name - Geo A Gilpin
Arrival Date - 13 Mar 1901
Age - 33 years 1 months
Birth Date - 1868
Gender - Male
Ship Name - Newport
Port of Arrival - San Francisco, California
Port of Departure - Panama
Last Residence – Salvador
June 1909
New Orleans Passenger Lists 1820-1945
Name - George A Gilpin
Arrival Date - 14 Jun 1909
Age - 41
Gender - Male
Ethnic Background - English
Port of Departure - Puerto Barrios Guatemala
Ship Name - Harry T Inge
Port of Arrival - New Orleans Louisiana
Friend's Name - Banco De Salvadorina
Last Residence - Salvador
Birthplace - England Leeds
October 1909
New York Passenger Lists 1820-1957
Name - George Arthur Gilpin
Arrival Date - 18 Oct 1909
Estimated Birth Year - 1868
Age - 41
Gender - Male
Port of Departure - Liverpool England
Ethnicity/Race/Nationality - English
Ship Name - Celtic
Port of Arrival - New York New York
Birth Location - England Leeds
April 1915
George Arthur Gilpin - Male - 47 and 1 month - Single - Ethenicity British?English - Place of residence Republic de Salvadore, San Salvadore (slight age difference)
His ship arrived in New York on the 23rd April 1915 (3 weeks before the Lusitania was sunk)
and it states he was on route to:
Final destination
Leeds/London England
Elizabeth Mary Gilpin (Mother) 23 Marshall st, Leeds
Whether been to USA before yes 1909 (but also 1901)
Lusitania 1915
According to the passenger list
GILPIN, Mr. George Arthur, age 47, British, London, England, Saloon/1st class passenger
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Hi Ken
Brilliant!
I was being a bit slow. He's on his way back. So , he was a clerk until just months before he turned up on the first passenger list After jouirneys to San Salvador via Panama San Francisco and New York, he was returning a first class passenger.
Evidently doing better there than in the mill towns of Lancashire, then met his sad end.
Keep up the good work.
Emms
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If George ( the banker ) comes from Leeds .... I wonder why he'd be buried at Phillips Park Ken ??
I found a couple of ladies who may have been mentioned on the headstone or buried in family plots !! ..... the blurb on the Phillips Park site says it's a family though !!
LOVETT, Miss Mary Fall River, Mass. Passenger second cabin. On the Sunday, May 9, list of missing and probable dead.
Droylsden - Roll of Honour 1914 - 1918
LOVETT. MARY. Miss. Civilian.
Drowned at sea on the S.S. Lusitania. Living in Fall River Mass. U.S.A. native of Droylsden. Travelling to the U.K. to visit family at Fairfield Road Droylsden.
http://www.billnkaz.demon.co.uk/droymem3.htm
When Gerda Welsh was pronounced dead on June 2, 1961, it was a sad end to a sad life. Gerda was born in Norway, circa 1885, as the youngest child of Thomas Neilsen, a seaman. His wife died soon after Gerda’s birth, leaving him to raise her, and her older sister Thomasine, by himself. The Neilsen family relocated to South Shields, England, from where Gerda, a skilled dressmaker, emigrated to the United States in 1910. She had visited the United States once in 1908, and upon the death of her father it might have occurred to her that she could earn a good living there. She contacted a friend, Mrs. Gabrielson, who lived in Brooklyn at 95 Bedford Avenue, who agreed to house her when she arrived. She set sail on the Mauretania, which arrived in New York on October 7, 1910. The following four and a half years of her life are difficult to document, other than that she continued working in New York City, and that she booked passage aboard the May 1st crossing of the Lusitania, to visit her sister Thomasine who still resided in South Shields.
John Welsh had traversed the country in order to take the Lusitania. He had been working in Honolulu, Hawaii as a mechanic with the Marconi Wireless Telegraphic Company. He was returning to Groton, near Manchester with several thousand dollars that he had earned over the years. He had not been on the ship long when he noticed Gerda. She stood about 5’6, had fair hair and blue eyes. She noticed him as well and they soon struck up a conversation. “We took a strong fancy to one another,” he declared. According to the book, ‘Seven Days to Disaster’, during the course of the voyage, John and Gerda became acquainted with the Hook family and shared their table at meal times. One of the main topics of conversation was the threat of being torpedoed. “If the worst should come,” John said, “we made up our minds to sink or swim together.” Towards the end of the voyage, “we became engaged, arranging to be married on arrival.”
“When the ship was struck, I was with my young lady, and we stuck to one another till the vessel sank.” said John Welsh. Placing a lifebelt on Gerda, he escorted her to one of the last lifeboats. Unfortunately, the boat upended and he jumped into the sea to rescue her. “In the water, she was braver than any man I’ve ever met. She encouraged me whilst I swam… I supported her in the water for half an hour till we reached a lifeboat. The people in the boat did not want take her in, but relented.” To Gerda’s horror, the men who lifted her into the boat wanted to leave John behind, for they claimed the craft was crowded. “She pleaded with them, and finally they pulled me up.” He claimed that he, “sustained some slight injury to my leg and arms.” The lifeboat was rescued by a tugboat and landed that night in Queenstown. Talking to a reporter from the Irish Times, he said, “Here we are together safe and sound, and the wedding bells will soon be ringing.”
They took the ferry to England and in less than a week, made their way to the All Saints’ Registry Office to be married. The ceremony took place on Thursday, May 13, 1915. The couple settled in at his home, 31 Carlton Terrace, Gorton. Their happiness slowly unraveled, as they were unable to conceive any children. The memory of the Lusitania constantly played over in her mind and she slowly went insane. Finally, John saw no other choice but to commit her to a mental hospital. Although there was hope that she might come out of it, she never seemed to improve. The years went on and John moved away to find work. He eventually died in 1941 in Bromsgrove. If Gerda was notified of his death, it may not have registered. Her mind was trapped aboard the Lusitania, but on June 2, 1961, she was finally at peace.
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/articles/lusitania.php
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Hi
Could this not be a family grave for Arthur with Brother Walter's family?
Or have I missed something?
Emms
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I tried putting the names Lovett and Welsh into the Burial Records before they went off the air again, cos Bursy (I think) had mentioned them already - and the other names that Ken & Emms had. Didn't find anything conclusive though. I was going to check them again tonight but the site's gone again!
And I had a look on the Times digital archive, which has lots of personal announcements in the deaths column for Lusitania victims. But they all tended to be for funerals held 'down south'.
???
Barbara
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Here's an interesting article about rioting in Liverpool, Manchester and Salford following the Lusitania sinking;
http://www.mcrh.mmu.ac.uk/pubs/pdf/mrhr_02ii_panayi.pdf
Although it doesn't say anything about the actual Lusitania victims, it gives an idea of what was going on around the time.
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What a great read - Thanks Barbara
What it has given me is names of newspapers and dates to look at.
Ken
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Hi-
My name is Mike and I am the author of the Lusitania- Lest We Forget articles. Would it not be easy to just go to the Manchester library and look at the local paper to see the May 1915 coverage? That way you can find out through the funeral notices if any Lusy victim was buried at that cemetery or if any survivors gave any accounts to the local paper?
Mike
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Hi Mike
And welcome to rootschat
What a great read - Thanks Barbara
What it has given me is names of newspapers and dates to look at.
Ken
It would have been great to find this family/person? hitting the library was the next thing to do -but other projects have over took this one now, it's a shame but thats life :(
Ken
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Hi there-
Thanks for the warm welcome. Oh I know... Time does get away from us. I live in the US and what I do is that I email the UK libraries and ask them to try and find local survivor accounts in a time frame. Sometimes they are very nice and sometimes I never hear from them! There is a Lest We Forget three coming. It fixes any errors in one and two and of course, new and exciting stories and twists of fate.
Do you have the new book- Lusitania- An Illustrated History of the Ship of Splendor by J. Kent Layton. It truly is the best book on the entire history of the ship. Nice testimonials from people who sailed on it during it's career.
We just did a tribute to Lusitania survivor Barbara McDermott in the journal I write for- Voyage. She was the last one with any memories. She was a good friend and I miss her very much.
Hope to help you in the future.
Mike
www.titanicinternationalsociety.org
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Hi Mike
I dont know if you have read all this posting, but this hunt came about via a manchester council website stating philips park cemetery contained
2 vc winners
2 survivors of the charge of the lightbrigade
and a family from the lusitannia
The 2 vc winners were known about, but we managed to find the 2 of "the six hundred" which are now on findagrave website.
Maybe one day I will get back to this research and find them.
Nice Titanic site "not seen that one before"
Regards
Ken
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Hi Ken
Yes, that is all very intriguing. I'll ask my friends Geoff and Cliff. They are in England and would know better than I. I will report back to you with their findings. Yes, I am one of the trustees with TIS. The quarterly magazine is nice. Color covers, glossy pages, 50-60 pages. Pretty well-rounded- not just Titanic. Lusitania, Olympic, and all the great ships.
Mike
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Mike
Excuse the pun but "welcome on board" again ;D
The name author Eric Sauder "R.M.S. Lusitania" provided seems to have run it's course into a dead end.
So any help would be much appreciated
Regards
Ken
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Hi Ken-
Yes, sometimes you hear from people once and that is it. I am sure you meet researchers like that all the time. I heard from Cliff. He says he will go through his notes when he gets home. Thanks for the warm welcome.
Very best
Mike
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Hi Ken
A friend said it might be the Martin-Davey family.
Mike
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Hi Mike and welcome to RootsChat !! :)
The only Martin - Davey I found - was this one ...... Mrs. Elizabeth !!
This name was not on the list of passengers. Knowledge of her comes from the list of interments at Cobh in which she was identified as body #35, female, age 53 years, 2nd class passenger, Common grave A.
DAVEY Mr. and Mrs. Martin
DAVEY Arthur Vancouver British Columbia. Passengers - second cabin.
All 3 above were on the Sunday May 9 list of missing and probable dead.
DAVEY Miss Annie - She was not on the Sunday May 9 list of missing and probable dead.
MARTIN Charles D. Pittsburgh PA. Passenger - second cabin - On the Sunday May 9 list of missing and probable dead.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lusilist/LusitaniaPassengerList.html
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Mike, Annie
I cannot find them on the manchester burials site - BUT we all know what trouble that site has been over the last year :'( . I will try to check out the registers
Ken
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Hi Annie
They had only been in Canada since 1914. They were originally from England. The thing is- the body need not be recovered in order to have some sort of memorial stone.
Mike
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Hi Mike
Welcome to Rootschat. This topic's fascinating and it's great to have someone else with some input.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing about them not necessarily being buried there. You missed the fantastic photo's Ken took for me of Moston, but of the people on the gravestone, two were buried at Heywood, and one on the continent - Belgium I think. the stone doesn't give all theat. Just Heywood.
Taking that a step further, if there's a War Memorial i Phillips Park, do we know if there are Lusitania victims, even not buried here, and if there were, anyone who had another member of the family buried in Philips Park could roughly fit the description.
Apologies if anyone's mentioned that. I can't just see it, but we've covered a lot of ground.
Best wishes all.
Emms
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Hi Ken and Mike !
They should be on 1901 census .... but I can't access it right now ! :-\ :-\
I'll see if I can find them in Canada .... maybe it'll give some more information !
Annie :)
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Mike
This is the only bit of evidence that a burial took place - but no one's knows a thing about it - from the grave diggers to admin staff at manchester burials
http://www.philipspark.org.uk/PhilipsPark/Medlock_Valley_Places/Philips_Park_Cemetery/
This is a new link the one on page one of this posting had changed
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Emms
Yes Philips Park does have a war memorial and I have looked at it a dozen times, but cant ever recall seeing lusitania on it. But will recheck on my next visit, this will be soon - believe it or not but we have to dig up the father-in-law :o :o :o :o :o
Ken ;D
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Here's a photograph taken in Cork.
Lizzie
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And a close up view.
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Re: Replies #30-41, relating to George Arthur GILPIN (GA for simplicity)
I am the grandson of Lily Gilpin, GA's sister. Here's what I know about GA, which came from my Grandma (b.1872, d.1960) and Uncle George her son-in-law, who died in 1981.
GA grew up in Salford. His father James Gilpin died in the period between the 1881 and 1891 censi - I haven't dug up the details yet as to when. Times were tough and the family was split up for a while. GA went to live with his grandparents, the Shaws at 22 Museum Lane, Leeds, Walter his younger brother is recorded in the 1881 census as a member of "Hunt's Band" at Chatham Hospital, Manchester. His mother, my grandma and her twin Rose were staying with Louisa Calvert, his Aunt, at 77 Regent Rd. Salford.
By 1891, the family was almost re-united at 42 Wynford St. Salford, with the exception of Rose. My grandma mentioned that she had been separated by these circumstances from Rose and felt this deeply. She had never seen her again, I believe, but I haven't followed up on Rose either. GA is recorded as a clerk and Walter an engineer, turner in 1891.
What happened in the gap from 1891 to 1915 is vague to say the least. Various pieces of the puzzle are
-GA seems to have worked in the banking business
-he moved to central America (San Salvador) in the 1890's
-he must have risen up the heirachy quite quickly, as he was wealthy when he died
-he never married: maybe British banks preferred to send single men on foreign postings. Much cheaper for them.
-he may have worked for a British Bank in Salvador (family rumour said the Bank of England, but I doubt they would have an outpost there, unless it was an agency!). Reference to Banco de Salvadorina in one shipping list as a "friend" seems odd. Sounds more like a bank, which might have been given as a reference.
-My mother mentioned that there was a Union Jack full of bullet holes that GA had given to my grandmother, which seems to have disappeared. It was said to have flown on the bank's flagpole. Possibly a disaffected client expressed his feelings with bullets. I can understand the sentiment, although not the method, today, as banks teeter in the UK and USA! I'll try to find more on this from my cousin and whether there are any other artifacts
-Another story had it that GA was the honorary British consul in Salvador. Sounds a bit far-fetched, but he may have worked in some capacity in the consulate
-He is said to have survived the sinking of the Lusitania, and managed to swim ashore, but died of grievous wounds, or was found dead on the shore. Uncle George told me he was buried in Ireland.
-I haven't seen his will, but my grandma was undoubtedly one beneficiary. She lived in comfort for most of the rest of her life - her funds ran out when she was in her 80's. She named her house, in East Keswick, Leeds "Salvador"!
That's about it. Travel must be in the family blood, as after growing up in the UK, I have lived in Perth, WA;Montreal, QC and now in the Sydney, NSW region!
Hope this helps
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Hi Warwick B and welcome to Rootschat.
Thank you for sharing those details with us. How absolutely fascinating!
You sound as if you've been doing a bit of research yourself in between moving around the world. There may well be things that we can find at this end, or point you in the right direction, if you'd like people to.
If he left a will, and you'd like to see it, there is a very good chance you would get some more details. Unfortunately, not usually where he is buried, just where he died. Where it is will depend where his property is.
If it was all with his wife, then it may have been proved in Manchester with a copy in York, but if it is scattered it will have been at a bigger court though there should still be a copy at York. Basic details are in the wills calendar, in some record offices etc. There may well be an announcement of the death in the Manchester Evening News too.
It's great to hear from a real member of the family though.
Thank you for replying.
Best wishes.
Emms
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Thanks Emms.
A bit more checking has shown that the bank GA worked for was the London Bank of Central America. He was already its representative in 1899 in some dealings with the Empresa de Aguas de Juayua in Salvador which was mentioned in a thesis on the web which you can find by googling "George Arthur Gilpin". It's in Spanish which I only have a basic knowledge of, so I haven't translated it yet.
As you surmise, I have done some genealogical research before, but on my father's side, where I am presently bogged down in the 1600's. I have just started to look at my mother's side and this was prompted yesterday by the sudden impulse to check out GA after all these years, on seeing the book on the "Lusitania" in my bookcase!
I will delve into the matter of GA's will. My problem is accessibility: if it's not on the net then I have to rely on email approaches to libraries, archives etc. I visit the UK at least once a year and I hope to pursue the Gilpins in 2009!
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Hi Warwick B
I agree with Emms, what a fascinating story and family connection, it would be a real good read his will, if you ever get hold of it.
It now looks like George can be ruled out of a Manchester burial, with your uncle thinking he was buried in Ireland.
R well never mind the hunt continues.
Best Wishes
Ken
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I am the Medlock Valley Community Link Officer and I work on Philips Park (not the cemetery) and am in the process of updating the web page (will take a few months).
The family is "Bartley" information below:
The grave of a family who perished when a German U-boat torpedoed the Lusitania in the first World War. Of the 1906 passengers and crew,1195 died, including husband, wife and 4 children of the Bartley Family. The sinking was a major reason for the Americans entering the war.
Name Age Place-of-Origin
BARTLEY, Mr. George Noble 38 Welland, Canada
BARTLEY, Mrs. George Noble (Ellen) 28 "
BARTLEY, Master Arthur 4 "
BARTLEY, Master Gordon 3-months "
The Grave No is B377 in the Church of England section near the Gates near the war memorial.
If anyone wants more info and I have photograph and map of cemetery, they could email me at Carol.Baguley@groundwork.org.uk.
All information will be put on the web site once updated www.philipspark.org.uk.
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Hi Carol
Welcome to Rootschat
What a star you are ;D - many many thanks for the info and photo. I just cannot believe how many times I have walked passed that grave, the wife has a family grave not to many plots behind this headstone.
I will now try and find out more about this family and add them to my ebook.
Kind Regards
Ken
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Possible spanner in the works already.
None of the said Bartley family show up on the Manchester Burial web site.
Wonder if it is just an inscription dedicated to the family members.
Will have to check the actual burial records.
Ken
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Hi Carol
Yep I am 90% sure :'( it's just an inscription :'(
Here's a list of burials in B377 CofE
John Bartley
Amelia B Gibson
William A Gibson
Mary Bartley
John Dixon Bartley
Mary Ann Bartley
Regards
Ken
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Hello there
I was just perusing the net and lo and behold all this info on Rootschat re my family
I can give more info on the Bartley familty.
I have the grave papers and my great grandparents mariage certificate. My great grandfather was John Dixon Bartley and his wife mary Ann Bartley nee Heron. George Noble Bartley was his brother. Family history states George, Ellen and both their sons where interred in ireland after the sinking but were included on the family memorial later. They where travelling back form canada I think the St Catherines area of Ontario where they had previously settled.
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Hi Kittyb. Welcome to Rootachat!
Fancy after all this time, you joining from the real family!
I'm sore that any one involved would be really interested in anything you can tell us about your family and their experiences of the disaster or across the Atlantic or anything else!
Thank you very much for getting in touch and do let us know some more about them if you can!
Welcome againn to Rootschat. Do let us know also, if there's anything else on your family any of us can help with.
Best wshes!
Emms
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Further to posts #66 and #68 from Emms and Ken respectively:
I have obtained a copy of George Arthur GILPIN's will from the York Record Office. He left everything to his mother, Elaza Mary Cawthorne GILPIN amounting to Pds.8953. His will was drawn up in San Salvador in 1909. His mother died in 1924 and left Pds. 13841, to be shared between her three remaining children, Walter, Lily (my grandma) and Rose. I have also learnt that Walter travelled to Ireland to identify George Arthur's body, after the sinking of the Lusitania. GA was almost certainly buried in Ireland although where I am not sure, but suspect it was in one of the communal graves.
Thanks to both of you for your interest, and for the summary of Gilpin information that you posted on 14 May, Ken.
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Just been palying about converting the money left in those wills into totdays money.
Wow! boy they left a bob or two :o
Migky ;)
Best match i could get on the year.
In 1910 £8953 would be worth today £ 510,858
In 1925 £13841 would be worth £ 414,814
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Thanks to carolbaguley for posting the photograph of the Bartley family. I was extremely surprised and pleased to discover it!
Like Kittyb216, they are also my family. My grandmother, Harriet Brannen (nee Bartley), was the sister of George Noble Bartley. My branch of the family, as well as two sisters and their families, and the mother, came to Canada in the 1910's and 1920's.
Over the years we lost touch with the Bartleys that remained in England, so if Kittyb216 ever sees this, I would welcome the opportunity to re-connect!
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Hi :) :) :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
How fascinating!
thank you for getting in touch! I enjoyed reading about your family.
Sounds as if you will have loads to catch up with!
Thank you also for posting the photo! I enjoyed it too!
Best wishes to all!
Emms
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Thanks for the welcome.
Just a clarification to something Kittyb216 wrote, all of the documentation that I have on the Lusitania states that none of the Bartleys' bodies were ever found. In fact, few were. There were 50 bodies recovered of the 404 missing crew, 68 bodies recovered of the 178 missing Saloon passengers, 82 bodies recovered of the 374 missing Second Cabin passengers, and only 23 bodies recovered of the 239 missing Third Class passengers (including the Bartleys). There were also 65 bodies that remained unidentified.
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I was going through some WW1 stuff and came across these entries .... nothing to do with the families you're following but I thought they maybe of interest ! :)
In Memory of
Private NOEL FINUCANE
7494, 1st/10th Bn., The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
who died age 26
on 04 January 1917
Son of Mary and the late John Finucane, of 52, Strathcona Road, Liscard. Born Bolton. One of the crew of the "Lusitania." Afterwards on the "Aquitania," until the evacuation of Gallipoli.
Remembered with honour
VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY
In Memory of
Lieutenant CHRISTOPHER WILLIAM GRIFFITHS
123rd Field Coy., Royal Engineers
who died age 35
on 07 November 1918
Son of William and Rosita Griffiths, of Newport, Mon.; husband of Maud Mabel Waudby (formerly Griffiths), of 7, Sycamore Rd., Waterloo, Liverpool. A survivor of the Lusitania.
Remembered with honour
ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN
In Memory of
Lance Serjeant D LAMBIE
13802, 14th Bn., Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
who died age 33
on 24 April 1917
Son of John and Catherine Lambie, of 26, Manse St., Saltcoats, Ayrshire. His wife and two children were drowned through the sinking of the "Lusitania" on 7th May,1915.
Remembered with honour
GOUZEAUCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY
In Memory of
Rifleman JAMES LITTLE
6460, 1st/6th Bn., London Regiment (City of London Rifles)
who died age 24
on 22 October 1916
Son of Arthur and Laura Little, of 34, Queen St., Aylesbury, Bucks; husband of the late Enid Little. His wife and child were drowned in the sinking of the S.S. "Lusitania.".
Remembered with honour
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
In Memory of
Ordinary Seaman MAXWELL HILL MORRICE
Clyde Z/7826, R.N. Depot (Crystal Palace)., Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve
who died age 31
on 19 June 1916
Son of John and Jessie Morrice. A Law student. Born at Jarrow-on-Tyne. His brother David drowned when S.S. "Lusitania" was sunk
Remembered with honour
ABERDEEN (ALLENVALE) CEMETERY
In Memory of
Able Seaman PERCY BARROW MOSS
Mersey Z/1477, Drake Bn. R.N. Div., Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve
who died age 23
on 11 May 1917
Son of John and Mary Eleanor Moss of 54 Cambridge Avenue, Crosby, Liverpool. His brother John Barrow Moss drowned when S.S. "Lusitania" was sunk
Remembered with honour
BRIGHTON CITY CEMETERY (BEAR ROAD)
In Memory of
Private HENRY CHARLES NEEMS
36308, 13th Bn., Cheshire Regiment
who died age 33
on 07 June 1917
Son of the late George Frederick and Margaret Jane Neems. Of 54 Vaughan Road, Wallasey, Cheshire. His brother William Francis was lost on the "Lusitania"
Remembered with honour
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
In Memory of
Stoker WILLIAM RYAN
411V, H.M.S. "Queen Mary.", Royal Naval Reserve
who died age 50
on 31 May 1916
(Served as RICE). Son Anne Ryan, of Corrags, Newry, Co. Down and the late Patrick Ryan; husband of Mary Catherine Ryan, of Corrags, Newry, Co. Down. His brother Edward Ryan (served as RICE) died on S.S. Lusitania.
Remembered with honour
PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL
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Hi :)
Thank you for those inscriptions, Annie! Fascinating reading! Just shows there may be loads of other family memorials to the men involved. :)
So with that in mind, a bit of a cheek I kjnow, but if anyone os going through any such site, and they see anything on a James Hoey, please could they let me know.
He has an address given on CWEGC in Dundalk. It looks as if my Lancashire Hoeys came from that area via Dublin. Also, that crew list includes many of the surnames of Godparents and people close by or families married into, eg Donoghue, Moran etc.
I'll also look in siyes for over in the area in Ireland later, but this was started and this is where they ended up.
Best wishes
Emms
http://rmslusitania.info/pages/engineering_crew.html
HOEY, Mr. James
lived at 4 Mary Street (South) in Dundalk. Commonwealth War Graves lists his age as 23.
25
British (Irish)
Trimmer
Dundalk, Louth, Ireland
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On the Irish board they have this ... :) might be worth a "punt" ......
As part of their 150th anniversary celebrations the Irish Times Digital Archive will be free to access from November 30th to December 14th.
website : http://www.irishtimes.com/search/archive.html
The offer only lets you look at Daily Irish Times articles.
But when you interrogate the data base it refers you to Weekly Irish Times articles as well as Daily Irish Times articles, and you cannot view those without a subscription.
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OOh Annie
Thank you! :)
Thank you! :)
Thank you! :)
What a timely piece of news! ;)
I will be onto that as soon as I get time to play! Lataer :'( ::) ::) ::) :'(
IO'l let you know how I get on!
Thank you again!
Emms :)
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Further to posts #66 and #68 from Emms and Ken respectively:
I have obtained a copy of George Arthur GILPIN's will from the York Record Office. He left everything to his mother, Elaza Mary Cawthorne GILPIN amounting to Pds.8953. His will was drawn up in San Salvador in 1909. His mother died in 1924 and left Pds. 13841, to be shared between her three remaining children, Walter, Lily (my grandma) and Rose. I have also learnt that Walter travelled to Ireland to identify George Arthur's body, after the sinking of the Lusitania. GA was almost certainly buried in Ireland although where I am not sure, but suspect it was in one of the communal graves.
Thanks to both of you for your interest, and for the summary of Gilpin information that you posted on 14 May, Ken.
Hello Warwick B
I am new to this ancestors trail.However Rose was my G.aunt and I think I can shine some light on why the twins were split up.Also I have a couple of photos about 1895 and 1913 which may ring a bell.
Peter0
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Hello & welcome Pete to Rootschat.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Migky ;)
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Hi Peter0
Welcome to rootschat.
We all look forward to your contribution to this ever expanding story :)
Ken
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Hi Peter0
Welcome to rootschat.
We all look forward to your contribution to this ever expanding story :)
Ken
Hello Ken
I think the most interesting question is How did GA go form rags in Monton c1891to riches at his death in 1915.It has been suggested that he was Vice Consel this may be true but it is not a full time and would not make him rich.Also he was a banker or a water engineer but he describes himself in 1909 as a merchant.His traveling companion John White Hinds engineer may give a clue.(He may also have been on Lusitania but not all agree)
Also how did Eliza a dressmaker turn £9000 in 1915 to £14000 in 1924 as she also a financial genius?
Merry Christmas
peter0
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Hi Peter0 :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
How fasinating!
Definitely something to sleep on! Thank you for giving us the benefit of your family knowledge.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Hello Emms,
Sorry to disturb you sleep,but I asked the questions so I had better answer them.
G A Gilpin was a merchant exporting coffee importing machinery electric trains water pumps etc.
Hinds W J did not sail either by accident or otherwise died in San Salvador 1937
The German government were forced by the allies to compensate relatives of the Lusitania victims after WW1 English seemed to be worth 5000 Dollars Americans 12,500 dollars.So this may have helped Elizas finances also.
To return to the original topic of grave hunting,according to the New York times reports after 4days 147 bodies had been found 43 American or Canadian,1 belgian 1 welsh 3 English 22 crew.Strange since 90% of passengers were English.57 were not identified.The American coffins were draped the the stars and stripes for a photo opportunity.After 6 days there was a funny small in Queenstown so they buried 149 in three graves A B C two layers 25 in each layer.
An American diplomat visited the graves in 1917 and complained that they untended,also the only memorial erected read "Vengance is mine sayeth the Lord"
Do we have another suspect in the "who sunk the Lusitania saga"?
Peter0
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Hi
I am currently looking for information on the Bartley family , Philips Park Cemetery.
This is for the cemetery graves of interest information.
I would be glad of information anyone can give on this.
Thank you
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Hi
I am currently looking for information on the Bartley family , Philips Park Cemetery.
This is for the cemetery graves of interest information.
I would be glad of information anyone can give on this.
Thank you
Welcome to Rootschat
Group members will help you as much as possible, but this thread was started 14 years ago and is about the Lusitania. Is there a connection into your posting?, if not I would suggest you open a new thread.
Regards
Ken