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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Clackmannanshire => Topic started by: castleshaw on Thursday 01 May 08 10:21 BST (UK)
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I've come to a halt in my research. My gt.grandmother appears on the 1881 and 1871 census in Clackmannan. I know she was born around 1863 and she died in 1952 but she doesn't appear in the Births on any site. I've tried all ways of spelling her name. On the 1871 census in the birth column it says 'found at Kennet House, Clackmannan' .I have just found an appendage on the Ancestry.com site which says 'born at House - Jame at Hamel'. I wonder if she was illegitimate and is there any way to find out. Hope someone can help me.
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What is her name ?
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Hi
Kennet House is in Clackmannan parish and the Kirk Session minutes are at the Stirling Archives (link below) There may be a reference in the minutes.
http://www.stirling.gov.uk/archives
Andy
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her name is Rachel Marr
on later census forms she is written as Rachel Jackson Marr
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
This is a bit of a wild card but:
On the 1861 Clackmannanshire:
Kennet Mains, Kennet:
Thomas Marr, 41, land steward, b. Lesmahagow, Lanark
Rachel Marr, 34, b. Lesmahagow
It might be worth following this couple forward/backward to see if there is any relationship.
Gadget
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I think we might be on to something :)
It looks as if Rachel was a Jackson - they must be relatives, mustn't they - or did they find her :-\
on the 1871, they are in Clackmannan
Thomas Marr, 51, land steward & Farms 178 acres for the Lord Burleigh, b. Crawford, Lanarkshire
Rachel Jackson, 43, b. Lesmahagow
Isabella McCadie, 18, general servant, b. Caithness
The 1851 for reference:
Carstairs Mains, Carstairs, Lanarkshire
Thomas Marr, 31, farm servant,b. Crawford, Lanarkshire
Rachel, 25, b. Lesmahagow
In 1881, they are still at Kennet Mains
Gadget
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Hi and thanks for your speedy replies. I found these people and thought I was onto something - but on the next census (1871) Rachael Mar(r) appears as a boarder in Clackmannan village age 8. So her date of birth should be about 1863. In 'place of birth' it says 'found at Kennet House'. So I also assumed that the people you found were her parents. Another factor being the Rachel you found was called Jackson before marriage and my gt.grandmother signed herself Rachel Jackson Marr in many instances. But there isn't a record of her birth anywhere. Nor does she appear to have lived with these people. I've been all over the ScotGov. site and nothing. Nothing on the Mormon site. Ancestry.com adds a rider to her birthplace on the 1871 census which says 'place of birth, House, Jame at Hamel'. We even visited Kennet last year (lovely village) and the Library at Alloa who were very interested but couldn't help.
'found at Kennet House' sounds like , on the doorstep....its a strange phrase. Also Jame at Hamel.
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Hi
I think it is possible that this couple found Rachel and she was named after them.
Can you give me the reference to her (name, age, residence) on the 1871 census. I'd like to look at the 'Jame at Hamel' on the original census page.
* Now found - I'll take a good look
Gadget
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I've looked at the original image and it's not Jame at Hamel , It's Found at Kennet House. There is nothing else on the census form. I think it might be one of those slight misreadings in the processing :-\
Does anyone know how foundling children are registered?
Gadget
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Oh, I forgot to ask, what does it say on her marriage and death certificates as her parents names?
Gadget
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On her marriage certificate it says fathers name - Robert Marr. No mothers name asked for and she signed her own name as Rachel Jackson Marr.
Her death certificate has no section for parents name.
I saw the entry saying 'found at Kennet House' - but when I looked on Ancestry.com - this extra bit was in where born(see below). It states that their info comes from ScotGov. but I can't see this on the site. However, I 'm not impressed with the Scottish Gov. site as most of the time it just comes back with 'not known' and I know for certain that the person is on the various census forms.
Rachael Mar aged 8, boarder born ?House, Jame At Hamel
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Hi
No there has beena misinterpretation of the place of birth and you have used the index that has been produced. All indexes are as good as the person who interprets the written record and then transcribes it*. The entry is as I've put up.
Believe me :-\
Gadget
* this was my shorthand for it:
I think it might be one of those slight misreadings in the processing
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I think you're right about the mis reading/typing. Now I see it enlarged as you sent it thru' - I could imagine someone reading it as 'House, Jame at Hamel'. So I'm back to 'found at Kennet House.'
If they found her and took her in, do you think there would be documents....also, if they didn't formally adopt her, I'm sure I read somewhere that all births had to be registered in Scotland from 1854. I'm sure she would need her birth certificate for various official thing in later life. I know she went to France in 1919 to visit The Menin Gate (her eldest son was killed in the Ypres Salient) - so I'd have thought she needed a passport for that.
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I don't think she'd need a birth cert in those days, although I'll check on an early passports site for you later.
I'm thinking that it might be better to move this to the Clackmannanshire board as people there might have information about how such matters were handled. You don't have to do anything, I'll ask a Mod to move it :)
Not everyone - even with known parents - had their births registered in those days.
Gadget
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Hi, I'm grateful for any help you can give. This is the first time I've visited a forum so am feeling my way round....shall I do nothing and you'll have my query posted it elsewhere?
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Yes :)
Just keep going as you are. I've sent a message suggesting that it might be best moved to Clackmannan but it might stay here, so don't worry.
You're doing fine :)
I'm thinking that there might well be something in those Kirk Sessions records that Andy gave the link to. I don't know how easy it is for you to get to Stirling but you might try phoning.
Hi
Kennet House is in Clackmannan parish and the Kirk Session minutes are at the Stirling Archives (link below) There may be a reference in the minutes.
http://www.stirling.gov.uk/archives
Andy
Gadget
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I live near Huddersfield, West Yorkshire so Stirling isn't easy but I will ring them tomorrow.
Thanks for your help so far. I now feel I have more avenues open to me. I've been at a standstill for some time and getting more frustrated.
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There's a will for the Thomas Marr on Scotlands People - 1883 overseer at kennet. Spouse of Rachel Jackson or Marr.
it will cost you £5 but it might give some information :D
I'm assuming that you know about the site as you've mentioned it!
Gadget
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That's great, I do know the site but have only looked on the various census and BMD - I never thought of wills. I'll send for this and hope it gives me more.
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Hi
If she was a foundling then, depending upon how old she was when found, her birth may have been registered by her birth parent. I think the best option would be the Kirk Session to see if there is any reference as its most likely that the church would have been involved somewhere. You would need to start looking from April 1862 onwards as the 1871 census was on the 2nd April so an 8yo would have been born between 2nd April 1862 and 1st April 1863. There is also a possibility that the Kirk Session minutes has clues about a possible mother.
Another possibility is baptisms, the chances are that she would have been baptised after being found and there may be some additional information but you would need to locate baptisms from 1862 onwards. The IGI in Scotland from 1855-1875 is transcribed from the Statutory Birth Registers not the Parish Baptisms.
If nothing is found in the Kirk Session minutes then you may need to track down records from other churches such as the Free Church.
Andy
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Hi Andy,
I've been at a deadend with my search for a while, so thank you for these leads. I feel more hopeful now of finding details of my great grandmother. I'll ring Stirling today and will search the baptism records too.
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Did you have any luck in the end, i was really interested reading the posts and wondered if you had come to some conclusion?
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Hi I’m not too sure if you’re still around and able to see my post, but I thought I would just write this incase you are. I would love to get in touch - Rachel was 3x great-grandmother, through her son William Robertson who died in WW1 in France. I have a photo of Rachel and would love to share it with you if you haven’t already seen it :)
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From the British Newspaper Archives. The following three newspaper snippets of information are from the index only. Sorry, some of the index is just unreadable gobbledegook, and I'm not able to bring up the full articles.
"The Alloa Journal and Clackmannanshire Advertiser" Saturday, 31st Dec. 1864.
".....female child, apparently about 18 months old, was found neatly wrapped up in a shawl, at the.....to Kennet House. It was taken possession? of by.....the men on the estate.....and a? reward is offered? by....."
"Alloa Advertiser" Saturday, 7th Jan. 1865.
"The Kennet Fou.....? (foundling?). No trace has yet been found of the parentage of the infant left near Kennet House a few days ago. Meanwhile the interesting and intelligent child is under the guardianship of Janet Adams, Drysedale? Street....."
"Stirling Observer" Thursday, 19th Jan. 1865.
"A Foundling. A little girl about two years of age, was, a few days ago, left exposed near the mansionhouse of Kennet, and the Police has? as yet failed to discover the parents."
Kirk Sessions likely to have some records, especially if Janet Adams, who had guardianship of 'Rachel' when first found, was paid by the Parish for her keep. ScotlandsPeople now have Kirk Sessions online, but are not easy to search.
Regards, Dod.