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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Peeblesshire => Topic started by: melonsmum on Tuesday 29 April 08 15:56 BST (UK)
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I would be very grateful if someone would do a Baptism look-up in the Parish Registers for me. I'm sorry I don't know the date of Baptism. The birth details are as follows:
Registration District: Peebles
Name: SCOTT
Date of Birth: 4th May 1868
Place of Birth: Northgate, Peebles
Sex: Male
Father: Thomas SCOTT
Mother: Jane SCOTT (Formerly BURNS)
Parents Marriage: 16th September 1867, Traquiar Kinowe
Fathers Occupation: Railway Guard
I am hoping that this will prove to be my G Grandfather. I have spent a small fortune on Scotlands People looking at all the Thomas Scotts whose father was also called Thomas and this one seems to be the most likely. As there is no name recorded on his birth certificate I am sure that it will appear on his Baptism Record. I am in Northern Ireland so it would be difficult to do this search myself. Unfortunately the Parish records on SP Website only go up to 1855. So............. Thank you in advance.
Melonsmum
Oh, The parents denomination was Church of Scotland.
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Hi Melonsmum
It's looking good for the family (I've posted as transcribed, you would have to look at the original to see what the entry actually says in respect of place names for births)
Thomas Scott 27, railways pointsman, b. Lyne Manse, Peeblesshire
Jane B Scott 24, b. Naguair, Peeblesshire
Thomas B Scott 4, b. Naguair Keonve, Peeblesshire
Janet H Scott 2, b. Peebles
Wm B Scott 10 months, b. Peebles
Address: Northgate, Peebles
These are the children showing Thomas and Jane on IGI
1. SCOTT Birth: 04 MAY 1868 Peebles, Peebles, Scotland
2. JANET SCOTT Birth: 07 FEB 1869 Peebles, Peebles, Scotland
3. JOHN BELL LORRAINE SCOTT Birth: 13 MAY 1870 Peebles, Peebles, Scotland
4. WILLIAM SCOTT Birth: 29 AUG 1871 Peebles, Peebles, Scotland
Regards.
Monica :)
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This looks to be the same family in 1881, again as transcribed:
Thomas Scott 37, railway signalman, b. Peebleshire Lyne
Jenat Scott 47, b. Yarrow, Selkirk Shire
Thomas Scott 14, agr. lab., b. Traquair, Peebles
Janet Scott 12, b. Peebles
John Scott 10, b. Peebles
William Scott 2, b. Peebles
William Scott 66, grandfather, b. Stobo, Peeblesshire
Address: Raveligg Junction (Railway), Currie Midlothian
Melonmum, what do you have on the Thomas you are trying to trace. Do you have his marriage cert (I assume you do as you know the name and occupation of his father). Do you have him on later censuses to confirm his place of birth?
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks so much for your replies. This was one of those 'needle in a haystack' jobs as all I had to go on was his marriage certificate & the 1901 & 1911 Ireland Census and a 2nd cousin telling me that he believed that Thomas came from one of the Boarder counties of Scotland.
On his marriage certificate his father was named as Thomas SCOTT, Manager. This completely threw me as to his profession. I know that the family I am looking at in Scotland at the moment was a Railway worker but I have looked at the Scottish Census' before and reackoned that as his job title changed with every passing child and year, it would be possible that he could well have been a Manager by 1892, when Thomas married. It is always possible that Thomas gave his father a better 'occupation' than he really had.
On both the 1901 & 1911 Ireland Census, Thomas states that he was born in Scotland, but no further information than that.
I just feel that if I could get confirmation of this Thomas Scott's middle name from his baptism, then I would know for sure whether or not I am on the right track.
I think that part of me would also like this to be the right Thomas, especially as the IGI has information on the family going back to the 1600's.
Thanks for your interest and help.
Do you have access to Parish Records? or know how I could get access?
Melonsmum
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Sorry, I don't have access to the christening entries. These would not be available on line as I'm sure you have found, and would require a personal look up.
What middle name do you have for Thomas?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
The middle name that I have for Thomas is Beattie. There is a Thomas Beattie Scott in New Castleton but he is the wrong one.
Do you know how I go about getting a look-up done?
Melonsmum
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I would imagine records and copies of registers would be kept at the National Archives of Scotland (NAS) or at individual churches. Apart from employing a researcher, not sure how else you would go about looking for this information. :-\
Hopefully someone else here may have more information :)
Monica
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Thanks a lot for your interest and help Monica. It is much appreciated. My cousin lives close to Dumfries and I'll be going over to see her in the next 3 or 4 weeks so I will plan to make a trip to Peebles. I have a feeling in my bones that this is the right family and just want the confirmation now.
Thanks again,
Melonsmum
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... On his marriage certificate his father was named as Thomas SCOTT, Manager. This completely threw me as to his profession. I know that the family I am looking at in Scotland at the moment was a Railway worker but I have looked at the Scottish Census' before and reackoned that as his job title changed with every passing child and year, it would be possible that he could well have been a Manager by 1892, when Thomas married. It is always possible that Thomas gave his father a better 'occupation' than he really had. ...
Thomas snr's occupation seems pretty consistent on the bc (as quoted by you) and in the various censuses:
1868 Railway Guard
1871 Railway Pointsman
1881 Railway Signalman
1891 Signalman (Railway)
1901 Railway Signalman
Thomas jnr's snr's first wife (and mother of his children) is probably the Jane BURNS b 10 Feb 1847, Traquair Peeblesshire, parents Thomas BURNS & Mary ANDERSON - so that's no help ...
You mention that your Thomas Beattie SCOTT married in 1892 - was this in Scotland or in Ireland? Were there any details of interest on the mc e.g. Thomas Beattie's occupation, age (also in the Irish censuses), etc ...
Good luck,
JAP
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Hi again melonsmum,
Here's a (very unreliable) straw at which to clutch ...
Mary ANDERSON, likely mother of Jane BURNS, shows on censuses as born in Yarrow, Selkirkshire ca 1820.
There's an LDS submission for a Mary ANDERSON, bap 7 Apr 1819, Yarrow Selkirkshire - parents John ANDERSON & Mary BEATTIE ...
JAP
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Thanks very much Jap.
I have that information which is why I'm pinning my hopes on the fact that this Thomas is the right one. I just need the absolute proof that this is my man! In view of the fact that Thomas's mothers maiden name is Burns, it could be that his middle name is Burns. I hope not though!
I have to say, you are all very prompt, friendly and helpful on this Forum, it is much appreciated.
Melonsmum
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Thanks very much Jap.
I have that information ...
Melonsmum
Aargh ::)
It's always a good idea (I think, anyway) if persons posting requests mention the information they already have (e.g. apparently you already had all the census information which has been looked up and posted on this thread, and also had relevant info from the IGI which has also been looked up and posted). And also a good idea to mention why you have drawn certain likely conclusions. This helps to avoid duplication of effort by helpful RootsChatters :D
Good luck,
JAP
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I have to admit a nagging doubt Melonsmum (hope I'm wrong though!) that this is the Thomas BEATTIE Scott that you are looking for :-\ With Scottish naming pattern, everything would point to the 'B' that shows in the 1871 census entry for the family as standing for BURNS. Specially with the likely name for Jane Burns father being Thomas Burns. There are no birth registrations as you know for a Thomas Beattie Scott apart from the one that you are aware of in Roxburghshire. This is not uncommon. Many children were given middle names that at the time were not included in their birth registration.
We can help you more to look for possibilities if we had some additional info on Thomas, based on questions, some already asked:
1. You have his marriage in Ireland (?) in 1892. I believe like the English marriage certs. only father's details were included. Did father Thomas, manager, show as alive or deceased at the time of his marriage? Were there any relevant witnesses that could connect to his side of the family?
2. What ages (i.e. birth year) do you have for Thomas from his marriage cert and the two Irish censuses?
3. What was his occupation at the time of the marriage and in later years?
4. Wondering if he used any naming pattern for the names of his children. Do you have a relatively complete list of his children in the order that they were born, with any middle names if used. Do you have his wife's parents' names as well?
5. Have you tried trying to track the Thomas B Scott (the one born in Peebleshire) through the later censuses to see whether he still shows in Scotland?
6. Always the possibility that Thomas's family all moved to Ireland sometime after he was born. Have you tried looking for Thomas Snr. there?
Monica :)
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Hi Monica & Jap,
Thanks for your replies. I will list out what I know about my Thomas Beattie Scott.
Thomas Beattie Scott married Elizabeth Gordon on 9th April 1892 in Belfast.
Both Thomas & Elizabeth's ages were given as 'Full Age'.
Thomas's occupation was 'Clerk' and Elizabeths was 'Teacher'.
Thomas's Father was, 'Thomas Scott. Manager' and Elizabeths was 'David Gordon, Coachman'.
The witnesses were John Collins and Margaret Gordon. (I have no idea who John Collins was). Margaret was Elizabeths sister.
It was not mentioned whether or not either father was deceased but I have discovered that often it doesn't mention that fact whenever the father is indeed deceased.
On the 1901 Census, Elizabeth's age was 31 and Thomas's was 34.
On the 1911 Census, Elizabeth's age was 41 and Thomas's was 44.
On the 1901 Census Thomas's occupation was 'Clerk, Linen Business' and on the 1911 Census it was, 'Commercial Clerk, Linen Business'.
I have followed him through the street directories and from 1921 onwards his occupation was 'Foreign Correspondent'. Weirdly, on the burial Register his occupation was 'Compositor'. I can only assume that after his retirement he did a bit of part-time work. No one in the family knows anything about him having been a compositor. It could, of course, be a mistake.
Elizabeth was born on 24.09.1868 and died on 27.09.1944 aged 75.
Thomas died on 02.10.1951 aged 85.
Thomas age at death doesn't fit with his age on the census'. Of course, this is not an unusual occurance.
Thomas & Elizabeths Children were:-
Thomas Gordon
Herbert David
Lucinda Florence
Robert James
Eileen Ethel
Elizabeth Maud
Amelia Evaline
It would seem that a lot of the names were fashionable at the time and only 2 appear in Elizabeths family (her mother & fathers, David & Lucinda).
Unfortunately I don't have enough information about Thomas's father to locate him in Ireland.
I did track Thomas through the Scottish census and put the information in 'my shoebox' on Ancestry. As I am no longer a member, I cannot view them, so I can't honestly remember whether I found him or not. (It was a long time ago that I looked at this side of my family).
Maybe with your powers of deduction you may be able to 'see' something that I haven't!
Thanks
Melonsmum
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:'( This 1901 Census entry is the Thomas, son of Thomas and Jane Burns:
Thomas Scott 34, Railway Engine Driver, b. Traquair, Peebleshire
Gertrude Scott 34, b. England
Robert Scott 8, b. Carstairs, Lanarkshire
Gertrude Scott 7, b. Edinburgh
James Scott 4, b. Edinburgh
Address: 11 Stewart Ter, Edinburgh
Thomas and Gertrude married in Edinburgh 1891.
Monica
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The only other possibility that I am seeing at present on the Scottish censuses is this one in 1881:
Thomas Scott 16, lodger, clerk's apprentice, b. Liverpool
Liza M Gardiner 53, mangle keeper, b. Dundee
William Gardiner 29, calender worker, b. Dundee
Lindsey Gardiner 17, winder, b. Dundee
Address: 26 Dudhope St, Dundee Angus
I think this Thomas might be the same one as this one in 1871:
Elizabeth Scott 61, b. Ireland
Thomas Scott 24, power loom tenter, b. Greenock
Elizabeth Scott 20, saleswoman, b. Greenock
Thomas Scott 5, b. Liverpool
John McLaren 37, boarder, Student Of Urte (?spl) b. Glasgow
George Richardson 13, boarder, millworker, b. Manchester
Address: 58 Cresent Lane, Dundee
Thomas above is showing on the index as son to Elizabeth head. At age 61 unlikely so he is either g/son or son to Thomas or Elizabeth in the household. Would be worthwhile looking at the original to see how his relationship in the household has actually been written down.
I think this is the main family in 1851 back at Greenock:
James Scott 40, weaver, b. Ireland
Elizabeth Scott 38, b. Ireland
Mary Jane Scott 15, cotton mill girl, b. Domdel, Forfarshire
James Scott 13, rope work boy, b. Domdel, Forfarshire
Robert Scott 11, b. Domdel, Forfarshire
Stewart Scott 8, b. Greenock
Thomas E Scott 5, b. Greenock
William D Scott 3, b. Greenock
Elizabeth Scott 1, b. Greenock
William Young 36, lodger, b. Ireland
May Young 12, lodger, b. Greenock
Jane Young 10, lodger, b. Greenock
Archibald McKendrick 36, lodger, b. Ireland
Address: 52 Roxburgh Street, Greenock West
I cannot easily see the Thomas b. 1866 in Liverpool in the later censuses. There is only one Thomas showing b. England in his age range and he shows up to 1901 with mother.
Struggling to see anything else now Melonsmum.....
Regards.
Monica :)
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Thanks for that Monica. Looks like I'm back to square one!
He must be somewhere. I have checked all the usual sources here but to no avail.
There is another possiblity in the Govan area of Lanarkshire. There is no image available on Scotlands People for the Thomas Scott birth on that one so I would have to send off for it. This Thomas Scott was the child of Thomas Scott & Agnes Norval, who died 4 days after the birth of Thomas.
I have seen an oil painting of my GGG Grandfather 1840c. There was one of his wife as well but that was damaged years ago and was disposed off, unfortunately. Who would have had a portrait painted in those days? The Grandfather of the above Thomas was a Minister so perhaps it was feasible that he would have had one done.
The Family in the Govan area I followed to the 1881 census but couldn't find the Thomas after that. I know that I am clutching at straws here but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I am determined to trace this branch. This was my Fathers side, and where I first started but came up against so many 'brick walls' that I kept putting it on hold.
Do you have any ideas or advice on this one?
Thanks so much for your help and interest to date, I really appreciate it.
Melonsmum
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Hi Monica,
Our posts must have crossed paths in the 'ethers'.
That is very interesting, especially the Ireland connection. The thing that really throws me is the Oil painting. I'm sure that not everyone could have afforded to have one done in that era which is why I have discounted some families and latched on to others.
Unfortunately I have to go to work right now and won't be home until later tonight. (the PRONI is open to 8.45pm on a Thursday) so thats where I will be!
I will have a good look at what you sent me later.
Thanks again Monica,
Melonsmum
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Might be worthwhile searching for Scott/Minister in the censuses ;) What age would you estimate him to be from the painting (not that I am any good at estimating people's ages!). I understand Agnes died but have you managed to track Thomas father before or after?
Go to work now or you'll be late...catch up later!
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I couldn't resist another wee look before I left. I tracked this family from 1851 to 1881 on the Scottish Census. I couldn't find them on the 1841. On the 1851, Thomas's Grandmother was listed as: Widow of (looks like Mender) Minister of Roley Church. On the 1861 she is Clergymans Widow.
I forgot to mention before that my G Grandfather, Thomas Beattie Scott worked in the Linen Industry for the Ulster Flax & Spinning Company. I have already looked at their records (which are limited). I have just had a thought. I wonder did that company have any offices in Scotland............ Another avenue to go down.
Well I really must go to work now.
I'll catch up later.
Thanks
Melonsmum
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I've just been looking at the family in 1861. From what you have said re GGG grandfather, this family specially with father Thomas's occupation would be a perfect fit ;)
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I thought I would put down here the census entries for the family you have. Like you, I cannot find them on the 1841 census. I also can't see them in the 1881 census (did you say you had this entry or did you lose them after 1871?)
1851:
Allison Scott 65, Widow Of Mender (Minister) Of Roley Church
Robert Scott 10, grandson, orphan, b. Glasgow
Thomas Scott 26, Draper's Assistant, b. Dalkeith Midlothian
Agnes Scott 24, wife, b. Glasgow
Allison Isabella Scott 5 (months?), b. Glasgow
Sarah Morgan 20, lodger
William Morgan 23, lodger
Margaret Obrian 17, servant
Address:180 Hope St, Glasgow Barony
1861:
Thomas Scott 36, Linen Drapery Salesman, b. Edinburgh
Agnes Scott 34, b. Glasgow
Alison J Scott 10
Jane H Scott 8
Agnes G Scott 6
Isabella Scott 4
Allison Scott 75
Elizabeth Finello 18, servant
Address: 247 Eglinton St, Tradeston, Glasgow Govan
1871:
Thomas Scott 46, Warehouseman Simon & Cotton, b. Edinburgh
Jane H Scott 18
Agnes G Scott 16
Isabella Scott 14
Thomas Scott 5
Charles Scott 14, nephew, b. Calluka - I wonder where this is supposed to be?!
Alison Scott 85, mother, b. Dalkeith
Ellen Cameron 27, servant
Address: 6 Queen's Square, Park, Govan
I thought maybe by 1881 father Thomas may have remarried but can't see the family then to confirm.
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Melonsmum, I'm sure you have this already but I am including it firstly to keep it all together (and stop me having to refer back to the different sources) and more importantly, maybe someone might also recognise the names from their own lines :)
Thomas Scott and Agnes Norval banns/marriage show in Glasgow in 1848. The children showing to them on the OPRs and official record:
1. ALLISON ISABELLA SCOTT Born 09 OCT 1850 Barony, Lanark
2. JANE HELEN SCOTT Born 03 FEB 1853/ Christening: 17 APR 1853 Gorbals, Lanark
3. AGNES GRACE SCOTT Born 29 JAN 1855 Glasgow, Lanark
4. ISABELLA SCOTT Born 27 JAN 1857 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark
5. THOMAS SCOTT Born 19 OCT 1865 Govan, Lanark
In respect of Thomas b. 1865 I have no idea why the image is not available on SP. One reason this could happen is down to illegibility (the register entry couldn't be imaged). It might be worthwhile asking SP the question as to why it's on order before ordering. First impression would be that the entry won't include a middle name as it doesn't show on the IGI entry, but you never know.
The 1855 birth for Agnes Grace, on the first year of official registration in Scotland will give you a wealth of additional info. For one year only, the BMD entries ran over two pages of the register and for birth certs will include date and marriage of parents, how long they had lived at their usual residence and where they were born. Also, how many children they had (alive or deceased) and sex of children.
Agnes Norval you say died some days after Thomas's birth. Have you viewed her DC? This looks a possible birth entry for her which you should be able to verify from the parent details on her death cert:
26 JAN 1827 Glasgow, Lanark to parents John Norval and Jean Baird.
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In respect of the mother of Thomas Snr., Alison Shiels. This looks to be her birth entry:
19 MAR 1786 Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland to parents Archibald Shiels and Isabella Shiells
She married JAMES SCOTT, a United Presbyterian Minister on 24 MAR 1806 Dalkeith, Midlothian. For the family of a minister, goodness knows what they did for their children's birth and christening entries - I can't find any! Thomas b. 1825c would probably have been one of their last children given the date of the marriage.
Alison was a widow by 1851 and we can't find them in 1841, so James Scott remains a mystery...for now ;D These are the only entries on the Wills & Testaments with references to church men:
Reverend James Scott, 28/09/1825, occupation - Minister of Benholm in the County of Kincardine. Type - Inventory at Stonehaven Sheriff Court
James Scott,09/12/1830, occupation - Rev, minister of Relief Congregation Jedburgh at Jedburgh Sheriff Court
It would be good to establish where exactly was the Roley Church, it screams of a mistranscription of the original.
If Thomas Snr. and Junior left for Ireland after the 1871 census (given we can't find either as yet in 1881), it will be hard to verify further any Scottish links. Given Thomas Snr.'s age, if he did move to Ireland there is always the issue as to whether he made it up to the 1901 census to be able to check for him.
There are no deaths for Thomas Snr. in Scotland between 1871-81.
Monica
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James Scott was Minister of Relief Church not Roley.....oh the joy of mis-transcriptions....
Scottish Ministers are not something I have researched but you may want to look at this site http://www.dwalker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Map.htm
From the (very) little I know about this, the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae is a comprehensive listing of Scottish Ministers from the Reformation to the 20th Century. I believe that there are volumes by area and these are often held at local libraries. You might want to check what is available to you over in Ireland (the Irish had their own ministers' lists).
Monica
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Wow Monica, I am overwhelmed by the help you are giving me on this..... Thank you so much!
I have just had a look on Scotlands People and found a will for Alison Scott nee Shiels so I'm going to purchase it!
Here are the details of the 1881 Census:-
Thomas SCOTT, 56, b. Edinburgh, Warehouseman, (Soft Goods)
Allison I SCOTT, 30, b. Glasgow
Helen I SCOTT, 28, b. Glasgow
Agnes G SCOTT, 26, b. Glasgow
Isabel SCOTT, 24, b. Glasgow
Thomas SCOTT, 15, b. Glasgow
Galbella SHIELS, 84, Aunt, b. Dalkieth, Annuitant
Bella McMILLAN, 24, Servant, b. Lochmaddy Inverness
I wonder what happened to Alison on this Census. According to the Wills she died in 1886.
I had a look at that Minister website. I think that James may have been Ordained 20 years or so before he died. So he probably had another occupation before that. Interestingly, On the Banns for Thomas & Agnes's marriage it says that he is a Manufacturer. Maybe he took over his fathers business when he became a minister.???
I'll go and have a wee look at that will.......
Melonsmum
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I'm gutted...... Wrong Alison Scott!!
I should have checked the death BEFORE I purchased the will! Lesson learnt!
Here is Alisons Death information:-
Alison SCOTT, Widow of James SCOTT, United Presbyterian Minister, died 8th August 1871, aged 85. (Now I know where she was on the 1881 census!)
Address: 6 Queens Square, Regent Park, Govan Parish.
Her parents were:- Archibald Shiels Quarryman (?) Master
Isabella Shiels, nee Sheils
I'm just going to lick my wounds and plan the next move..... Any ideas?
Melonsmum
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I have Agnes SCOTT's death information.
Agnes Scott, married to Thomas Scott, General Warehouseman, died 24th October 1865, aged 38 at 2 Athol Terrace, Victoria Road, Govan.
Her father was John Norval, Comb Maker (deceased) and Agnes Norval, nee Baird (deceased).
If I remember rightly, I struggled to find this family on the 1891 & 1901 Scottish Census. What a pity I couldn't find the 1841 either. This could, of course (hopefully) be because they moved to Belfast or some other part of Ireland.
I was reading through some notes that I made whilst talking to an elderly relative a few years ago and they said that a couple of Thomas's sisters lived with him in later life and one acted as a housekeeper to him.
It is so hard to even look for the family in the census here as you have to know the address. Frustrating.
Melonsmum
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This is just for completeness/interest...
The Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae lists only ministers of the established Church of Scotland; I've put established with a lower case 'e' because the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland was the recognized church but was not Established in the same way as the Established Church of England in England.
There were many breakaway sects from the established Church of Scotland. A good diagram and summary can be found at:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html
Ministers of these breakaway Presbyterian sects (such as the Relief Church) are not listed in the Fasti.
JAP
PS: The pre-1855 records on ScotlandsPeople are only from the OPRs i.e. Old Parish Registers of the established Church of Scotland. However, the IGI does also have some pre-1855 records from breakaway Presbyterian churches
Later PS: The Ministers of the established Church of Scotland sought to have records of the breakaway churches entered into their Parish Registers. So, if this happens, you might possibly find entries on SP. In such cases, the established Church minister often made his views clear e.g. the record might be annotated with words such as "baptized by a Seceder" (one can almost hear the disapproval!) or "married by Mr X of the Associate Session", etc
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Hi melonsmum and Monica,
To clarify the position in my own mind I’ll try to set out what I understand to be the current situation.
This is because the subject of the original query – Thomas B SCOTT from Peeblesshire, son of Thomas – has now been dismissed from consideration as have Thomas Beattie SCOTT from Newcastleton, Roxburghshire and Thomas SCOTT b Liverpool.
So what are we left with?
*Melonsmum’s Ggpa was Thomas Beattie SCOTT
*Thomas Beattie married in 1892 in Ireland. His mc gives his father’s name and occupation as Thomas SCOTT, Manager
*Thomas Beattie was recorded as of ‘full age’ on his mc; as 34 (dob ca 1867) in the 1901 Irish census; as 44 (dob ca 1867) in the 1911 Irish census; and as 85 (dob ca 1866) at his death in Oct 1951
*Thomas Beattie’s occupation was given as Clerk on his mc; Clerk, Linen Business in 1901 and Commercial Clerk, Linen Business in 1911. Later Irish street directories give his occupation as Foreign Correspondent; the burial register lists him as a Compositor
*On the censuses, Thomas Beattie’s birthplace is recorded as Scotland; a 2nd cousin of melonsmum thinks he came from a border county of Scotland
*The names of Thomas Beattie’s children don’t seem to offer up any clues as far as Scottish naming patterns are concerned (see reply #13)
*Melonsmum has seen an oil portrait of her Ggggpa painted ca 1840 (see reply #13)
We are now exploring Thomas SCOTT b ca 1865 in Govan parish, Renfrewshire (sic) – he was still a scholar in 1881 which seems appropriate for a chap who was a Clerk in 1892. This Thomas has a correctly named father i.e. Thomas SCOTT and father Thomas is involved in the linen/drapery trade (as was Thomas Beattie in Ireland). Father Thomas was b ca 1825 in Dalkeith, Midlothian; he is the son of Allison (SHIELS) SCOTT who, in the 1851-1871 censuses, is recorded as the Widow of a Relief Church Minister. … We can’t find the family in 1841. And we haven’t found Thomas b ca 1865 or Thomas b ca 1825 in Scotland in 1891 or 1901 – perhaps the family had all gone to Ireland - perhaps after the death of Allison (SHIELS) SCOTT in 1871.
Now some thoughts and questions:
1. Does Ggpa Thomas Beattie’s middle name of Beattie appear anywhere other than on his mc?
2. What do you take as the meaning of the occupation of “Foreign Correspondent”? Perhaps it didn’t have the obvious meaning which we would give to it now? Perhaps Thomas Beattie was still in the linen trade – but dealing with exports to foreign countries? Do the addresses in the electoral rolls give any clue whether this might be the case?
3. Melonsmum, do you have any further info about the portrait. Where does the date of ca 1840 come from. Where does the info that it’s your Ggggpa (i.e. Thomas Beattie’s grandfather) come from? Is there any more information about it at all?
Do let me know if I've missed something 8)
JAP
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Hi melonsmum and Monica,
Now the next instalment :o
Monica, you are allowed to have a gentle laugh at me :) Yes, I've often commented on the way you seem to spend on SP in order to help people - and I've said that I'm miser meany and avoid doing so ::)
Well, I couldn't resist downloading the Will of Rev James SCOTT, Relief Minister of Jedburgh (no laughing pls). If either/both of you would like to PM your email address(es), I'll forward it.
This James drew up his Will in 1818; made a codicil in 1820; and died in 1823: the Will was proven in 1830. What is also interesting is that, in the original Will, Rev James of Jedburgh refers to his "only son Revd James Scott formerly Minister of the Relief Congregation or Church at Dalkeith now in Edinburgh". So it certainly seems as though the Will concerns the family we are currently exploring. Son James signed when the Will was proved in 1830.
Rev James of Jedburgh's Will refers not only to his only son James but also to two daughters - to youngest daughter Christian and to his other daughter Agnes who is married to a LAIDLAW and has children James & Jessy. It also mentions a brother (George) of Rev James snr.
The Relief Church apparently began in Jedburgh. And it had many adherents - here's a quote from the First Statistical Account of Scotland ca 1791:
"There are four clergymen in the town of Jedburgh; the minister of the Established Church, of the Relief congregation, of the Burgher, and the Antiburgher, seceders. Their respective examination rolls are as follows: Established Church 800; Relief congregation 1200; Burgher congregation 600; Antiburgher 150 ... Near a half of all the families in the parish of Jedburgh, and a great proportion of the families in all the surrounding parishes, are members of this [Relief] congregation."
Those numbers must have galled the writer of the Account (the Minister of the established Church of Scotland)!
It might be worth posting on the Roxburghshire board (with a cross-reference to this thread) to ask if anyone has any info about Rev James SCOTT of Jedburgh? Similarly on the Midlothian board (with cross-reference) re Rev James SCOTT of the Relief Church of Dalkeith.
Incidentally, the fact that Rev James was in Jedburgh, Roxburghshire is interesting. Perhaps that's the source of a (slightly garbled?) reference to a Scottish Borders background.
Regards,
JAP
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We're moving on a pace here :) Fingers crossed it's now the right trail.....
The family look to have still been in Glasgow area (Kelvin) in 1888 with the death of eldest daughter Alison Isabella Scott in 1888. Father Thomas reported death. Alison looks to have been ill for many years (paraplegic if I am reading it right).
So, we now have a further window of 1888-92 for a potential move for the family members.
Monica
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I feel we are peeling a banana skin here ::) I found Thomas b. 1825 death entry. He died in 1890 in Kelvin, son Thomas reported death. Parents are confirmed.
Monica
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:'( :'( :'( How v. sad......we're following the wrong Thomas....
Thomas b. 1865, son of Thomas and Agnes Norval, married in 1890 to a Sarah Miller. Census entries for 1891 and 1901:
Thomas Scott 25, Warehouseman (Linen), b. Glasgow
Sarah Scott 22, b. Glasgow
Isabella Scott 16, servant, b. Hamilton
Address: 6 Eastburn Pl, Shawlands, Renfrewshire
And in 1901, with no room for doubt:
Thomas Scott 35, Manfarturer's Agent, b. Glasgow
Sarah C Scott 32, wife, b. Glasgow
Mary Scott 9, b. Glasgow
Sarah M Scott 5, b. Glasgow
Jane H Scott 45, sister, Visitor From London, b. Glasgow
Anna G Scott 43, sister, Visitor From London, b. Glasgow
Isabel Scott 41, sister, Visitor From London, b. Glasgow
Maggie Ogilvy 23, servant
Address:8 Seyton Avenue, Cathcart, Renfrewshire
So where now......... ???
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Monica & Jap...............
I don't know! I was so hopeful when I started reading the posts from you both today...... You have both been so kind and helpful. Another dead end. Maybe someone else will benefit from all the hard work you both did.
I just don't know how to find out more about my Thomas. I honestly thought that him having been born in Scotland would make my research a lot easier as you know how difficult it can be tracing Irish ancestors.
I'm going to visit my 2nd cousin who owns the oil painting. I would like to see the back as there may be something there.
This 2nd cousin who owns the painting, doesn't know very much about Thomas Beattie Scott as he, himself only met him a few times because he was brought up in Edinburgh and admits that he never took much notice about the family history.
Oh how I wish that I'd asked my Dad about him before he died.
I will keep you both informed of what I discover (if anything) about the painting or Thomas himself.
Thanks so much to you both,
Melonsmum
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Melonsmum
Determination and patience is everything in genealogy research of which you have buckets ....all that is needed now is a little bit of luck to begin making all the connections which hopefully you will find :)
Just a question on your 2nd cousin ::) Does he connect directly to Thomas Beattie Scott side or is he connected to a line that married into the family?
Regards.
Monica
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Hello Monica,
Thanks for the encouragement. My 2nd cousin connects directly to Thomas Beattie Scott. His father is Thomas's eldest son. Unfortunate that he doesn't know very much. (I think that he probably knows a lot more than he realises,) but I have found it hard to keep him on track when asking questions of him.
I am already searching for another likely candidate. I found a family in Partick who also connect to Ballymena, Co. Antrim so maybe that is more likely. The father of this Thomas was a sawyer so I wonder did he progress to Manager by 1892???? I suppose that I have to look at all eventualities.
Melonsmum
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If Thomas was born in Scotland, his birth should show.
I hope your cousin stays on track for this round of questioning ;D I suppose you've done the rounds with all living family members to see whether anyone may still hold some family papers/bible/correspondence etc.
Let us know how you get on.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I will definately keep you informed as to my progress on this one.
Thanks so much,
Melonsmum