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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: fridayjan on Monday 28 April 08 11:48 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I've recently discovered that relatives emigrated from Scotland to Australia (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300539.0.html) and wondered if anyone can help me with a few questions?
a) is it possible to see Australian BMD indexes after the 1920's?
b) I've tried to find the McGavin family on Australian passenger lists without any success. I would presume they paid for their own passage as they seem to have been wealthy when in Scotland. Any suggestions as to how I might find them?
c) Is there any access to Australian census records? I haven't been able to find any apart from the Electoral rolls 1901-1936.
Janet
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Hi Janet
As to Australian Census Records.... there aren't any to speak of. None were kept. There are Electoral Rolls for each State, and they are fairly easy to access from over here in Australia.
Depends on which State you are looking at as to what BMD is available. Some States work on the 50 Year Privacy Rule some on the 100 Year Rule, which makes life difficult. Very few BMD are online though.
Shipping is another matter... there are lots of records available, once again depending on which State they came to.
I am based in Queensland and would be happy to check on anything for you at the State Library.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hello Jan.
Welcome to the Australian Board. :D
I see Karenlee hass answered but I'll post this also as I have included some webistes......
To answer your questions......
Question 1.
There are limited BMD Indexes online after 1920 I believe Queensland marriages now go to 1929.
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/829.htm
NSW deaths go to 1977 and marriages to 1956.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
Western Australian have some indexes past 1920.
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/829.htm
Victoria has Indexes online, but it's a pay for view site.
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/home
However, some of us have the Indexes on disk and don't mind helping at all. Likewise with South Australia.
Question 2.
This is a hard one. I presume you have tried FindMyPast? You could try the NAA website
http://www.naa.gov.au/
Question 3.
All Australian Cenuses apart form parts of a couple of very early ones have been destroyed. Even now, we have to give individual permission for our info to be saved to be released in the Years 2300 + ;D ;D ;D
......dee
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Hey dee
Beat me to it again... was in the process of working up a document to transfer with most of this info on it.... you are quick my friend.
QLD marriages and deaths do go much further on fiche than they do online.
Karenlee
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Janet (hi Karenlee),
Has anyone given you this this yet?:
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/
There are some immigration records on there, but not sure if all are online yet. If you need any lookups from the State Archives I can pop along to check for you - ie any bmd's which aren't yet online, wills ( ;D) - but we really need an idea of death dates for that, immigration records for those arriving in Qld ... etc.
Electoral Rolls are a good resource too, but the downside is that you need to know where the person was living. Not sure what info is online re these records (haven't used them ;)).
Karen, if you can think of any way I can help Janet, give me a yell ;D. Got to dash off now - back later to re-read Janet's posts and take notes (or I'll get all mixed up ) ...
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Hey Ruskie
Have not seen any Electoral Rolls online as yet. They have lots up at the State Library here in Brisbane... for lots of places. I would be happy to go up later this week and check them out. Archives have the Immigration records, but they are waaaaay out of town, and I am pretty much inner city.
Karenlee
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Hi Karen, I will do the State Archive searches and you can do the State Library searches, if that's OK? There are also Electoral Rolls at the Archives if you need any help.
I thought there were electoral rolls on Aus Ancestry? :P
I'll get together a list of things that need looking up ...
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Oh yeah, forgot about them on Ancestry. But they are only 1901 - 1936. There are HEAPS more of them available at the Library.
Karenlee
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Thank you so much for all your offers of help!! I can't believe how quick you are (and generous with your offers of time).
It took me a while to work out what FindMyPast meant ??? - but I got there eventually! I have tried Find My Past but (from what I can see) their records start in 1890 and I think the McGavin's must have moved between 1861 (they were in Scotland) and 1866 (when Mary Reid McGavin married Henry Marsh).
To save duplication, would it be best if I list all the family members I've found so far, and any dates etc. Would you need the reference numbers from information I've found on the Queensland BMD site?
I'm in Liverpool (England) so if I can be of any help to any of you with information from the Liverpool Records Office - just let me know!
Janet
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Janet
Let us know what you know about the ones that came to Queensland so that we don't duplicate any BMD, etc. Perhaps if you PM me and Ruskie then we can avoid taking up heaps of space on this thread.....
Immigration really only needs 2 dates... when you last have them in Scotland and when you first find them in Australia.... it can be narrowed down from there.
Might just take you up on the Liverpool offer one of these days... Mr Karenlee's family came from Little Woolton..... so perhaps....
Karenlee
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Hi Janet,
I've just been through your other post and taken a few notes for myself so I don't get confused ::).
A list of things you already have and things you want found would be useful.
If you've found any Qld BMD's just names and dates would be enough for me (not sure if or what Karen may need) no ref numbers needed.
I've got a few questions - some general, and some which may have been already answered in your other post but I may have missed or would like clarification:
Robert Mc Gavin and Mary Reid - is Mary his first wife? Is Margaret Skelly his second wife?
Do you think the whole family came to Australia? That spiel about Matthew said that he arrived in Brisbane in August 1863 which is a great clue ;).
Would you like me to try to find wills for those whose deaths have been found? In case I run out of time let me know which one's you'd like me to search for first. I can always go back another day to look for the others.
Any names (and approx dates if you have any idea) of other births marriages and deaths you'd like looked up on the fiche?
Think that's about all ... ;D
Yep, my OH's rellies are from L'pool so you might regret that offer ;). I love Liverpool - I know there's a lot of building work going on there at the moment so I hope the character is retained. I hope it's not being too 'done up' or over done - I do worry that sometimes restorations/renovations can go too far.
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Hi Ruskie and Karenlee,
I've got to go out soon, but will PM you later. Just to answer a few of your questions,
Robert McGavin's parents were ..... Robert McGavin and Mary Reid. As far as I can see, Margaret Skelly was his 1st wife, and just to complicate things they had a son called Robert too, as did Robert's brother Matthew. You can see why I'm easily confused!! I'm waiting for a film to come into the LDS to see if any of Robert and Margaret's sons had middle names listed when they were christened.
I think from looking at the QLD records that the whole family went to Australia as I've found all the children over there, with the possible exceptions of Robert and William - but again it's difficult to tell as there are a few to choose from!
There is lots of building work going on in Liverpool at the moment, especially towards the Albert Dock/Waterfront area - a massive new shopping complex and lots of apartment blocks (I'm not sure quite who is going to buy them all!!). There was an interesting episode of Time Team on TV last week looking at the remains of Liverpool's first dock which was uncovered during all the digging which is well worth watching if you ever get the chance.
Will be back later on,
Janet
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Janet
Just let me know what, if any, BMD or Electoral Roll information you need from Queensland and I can go check it out for you. If there are any newspapers from the time that mght have obits/funeral notices I can do that too.
Karenlee
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Looking for obits is a good idea Karenlee. Surely there should be something with such a high profile family.
When are you thinking of going to the State Library? I might try to get to the Archives this week on Thursday or Friday. We need to decide who will look for what ;).
PS. Just quickly read through Janet's PM telling us what she knows about the family. I've got to go out now, but will re-read carefully later and make a list of lookups required and will contact you via PM later. ;D
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Hi Ruskie
Just made it back in myself.....
Will be going to the State Library tomorrow, and can do any BMD, Electoral Roll and newspaper lookups that Janet needs. Wills and Immigration are more the Archives, and that's a real hike for me. I live almost Inner City, and the Library is a 10 minute bus ride away. If that okay with you of course.
Karenlee
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Hi Karen,
Well, for you to look up the obits and me to look up the wills we need deaths ;D, so that might be a good place to start.
I'll start that list now and get back to you.
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I have tried Find My Past but (from what I can see) their records start in 1890 and I think the McGavin's must have moved between 1861 (they were in Scotland) and 1866 (when Mary Reid McGavin married Henry Marsh).
Karenlee and Ruskie, your blood's worth bottling, both of you! ;D ;D
Just wanted to answer Janet's point above. I have been advised that English emigration records, at least what has been preserved, only start in 1890, which is why FindMyPast starts there. It's a blooming nuisance, as I wanted to check a couple of mine who came earlier. Certainly one can check shipping records at this end, but sometimes it would be helpful to check who was leaving England and where from... Oh well!
MarieC
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Thanks Marie 8)
Yes it would be good if we were able to check who was leaving as well as arriving. I didn't even know those records existed on FindMyPast - too late for my lot, but worth making a note of.
Do you know what kind of information you would expect to see on these records?
It appears that the later arrival records have more information than the earlier ones (where you only get a name ... if you're lucky ;)) - I've even found some which include photos (early 1900's I think and not my family unfortunately).
Just wondering how much information the authorities would bother taking about someone who is leaving the country?
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Janet
I have printed off everything that has come to me by this thread and by PM and will take it all with me to the Library today. I can go over it on the bus on the way into town. First off I will just do a general check that all the dates etc are as they should be and then concentrate on finding those that you don't already have. From there I will check the newspapers and electoral rolls for you. I have a pretty busy late afternoon today - parent teacher interviews at the Teenager's school - so may not get to send anything to you till later tonight, sorry.
Whatever I turn up I will post via PM to both you and Ruskie. Then you can sort out what needs doing next I suppose. I will be heading into the Library at the end of next week or early the week after if you come across anything that I can check for you then.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Thanks Marie 8)
Yes it would be good if we were able to check who was leaving as well as arriving. I didn't even know those records existed on FindMyPast - too late for my lot, but worth making a note of.
Do you know what kind of information you would expect to see on these records?
It appears that the later arrival records have more information than the earlier ones (where you only get a name ... if you're lucky ;)) - I've even found some which include photos (early 1900's I think and not my family unfortunately).
Just wondering how much information the authorities would bother taking about someone who is leaving the country?
Hi Ruskie
Don't have a sub to FindMyPast (though frequently think about taking one out!) but some time ago, Gadget tried to look for my infamous Bentleys on those records, so I know what is there, at least in the record she found!
That particular record only had Mrs Bentley and Mr Bentley (no initials) and no sign of their two children, so I really don't know if they are mine. I haven't been able to find them at this end! It also gives destination port, useful if you don't know where in Aus they got off the ship! And the name of the ship, its master, and where it was bound. Probably could be quite useful - but only for people arriving after 1890!
I would dearly love to be able to check the departure of my WJB Cameron, as I don't have definite arrival details, and a few possibilities which could be him. But alas! - he came several decades too early!
MarieC
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MarieC
I just got an email from FindMyPast telling me that I have 2 weeks to use up some credits... can I use them finding someone for you- coz I found who I needed.... and won't need these credits at all...
Karenlee
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That sounds like quite a useful resource then Marie, for the later arrivals at least ;)
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Hey Ruskie
Just PMd you with some stuff that I found today.... now need for Janet to wake up and see what else I can do....
Karenlee
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Message recieved thanks Karen.
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Gosh, karenlee!!! ;D ;D
What did I say above, your blood definitely IS worth bottling!! ;D
Just let me go to the FindMyPast site and review what they have and make a little list, so that we don't waste your credits. I'll pm you tonight with what I would like to be searched for!
Thank you very much! :D
A very grateful MarieC
PS Ruskie, yes it WOULD be a useful resource for later arrivals, but like yourself I don't have any, except for these darn Bentleys who appear to have swum to Australia!
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MarieC
Have to duck out for a few hours soon...... dropping youngest at the pool, going to a parent teacher meeting at the Teenager's school, then picking up the Teenager from art class before getting the youngest from the pool..... what's all that about "stay at home parents"? ::) ::)
Just let me know what you are after and I'll get to it after feeding time at the zoo.... ;D ;D
Karenlee
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Thanks Karenlee!
PM-ing you very soon. (I also had to go offline and do a number of things!)
MarieC
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Hi Janet!
I wasn't overburdened with great finds today, but I did get a few bits for you:
From Assisted immigration book 1848-1884
Ship: Cairngorm, arr Brisbane 2 Jul 1863
IMM/112 p:205 film:Z1957
McGavin Matthew age 55
Grace age 54
Eliza age 16
Ship Cairngorm from Liverpool via Greenock
Matthew said he was a labourer
(I thought this was not your family, but see Will below)
From Immigration cards
Ship details:
“Helenslee” sailed from Glasgow to Brisbane
all on board were “Scotch”
William Brown was commander/master
Arr 9 Aug 1862
On this list are just names – top of page is torn off
Robert McGavin
M?
Janet S
Mary R
Robert
John AS
Matthew
Jane
William
Margaret
Passenger list: (awful smudge through page – some words are unreadable but I think we can make an educated guess as to the names)
Cabin:
Robt McGavin 53 (age hard to read)
? 50 female
Janet S 26 female
? 24 female
? ?
John AS 18
Matthew 7
Jane 16
William 13
Margt 8
I could not find any Thomson or Thompson immigrations that fit your family names – Adam is a distinctive name and I could not find him. Also checked David and tried to match up with the more common names like William, Jane, Robert etc (there were quite a few of them :D). Perhaps they went elsewhere in Australia or maybe America? Or perhaps only some members of the family with common names came to Australia? There are dozens of Williams for example :-\.
As Karen found Margaret’s date of death, I looked for her will, which I found. Karen couldn’t find a death for Robert – I double checked but found nothing either. Have narrowed his death down to between 9 Aug 1862 (date of arrival in Australia) and 23 May 1878 (date Margaret wrote her will – she was a widow then).
I looked for any McGavin wills to 1900 in the shiny new “all wills in all Queensland” book. There were only three:
McGavin Margaret (see below)
McGavin James (I looked twice on this film but, frustratingly, was unable to locate this will – if you’d like I can try again next time I go to the Archives)
McGavin Matthew (see below)
Margaret McGavin
Of Rockhampton
Will dated 1878
died 28 July 1886
late of the Rockhampton Agricultural Reserve.
Executors are sons John Adam Skelly McGavin and James McGovern, both graziers, both of the Agricultural Reserve in Rockhampton.
£150 to daughter Margaret McGavin “for her use alone free from any debts or control by a husband”. If Margaret marries her mother states that she wants this money “enjoyed and disposed” of by Margaret as “her sole and separate property, free from marital control or influence”. (Seems like there might be a story behind that ;)).
She wants to exclude son Robert from all participation in real and person estate (another story ;))
Unfortunately there is no death certificate included with the will. This may just be a co-incidence, but the second witness to this will is a Walter Thomson (clerk). Wonder if there is any connection to your Thomson family.
Matthew McGavin
Of Brisbane
Died 16 Dec 1874, North Shore Sydney
Was a Minister of the Presbyterian Church
Wife Grace, he left all household goods, furniture and effects and all real and personal estate.
He left Margaret G Bell (his wife’s niece) – bedroom furniture, piano and napery
He left Jane, daughter of his wife & wife of Daniel Clark of Brisbane) all silverware
He left Margaret, daur of wife & wife of James Matthew Banks(?) (I think – can’t read my own writing) of Sydney – mantle clock, and silver spoons marked with his wife’s name.
The rest of household goods, furniture and effects to be divided equally between his children: Robert, James, Matthew and Elizabeth
...more to follow ....
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... a bit more ....
I also looked for wills for any McGavins in the Central District book which covers Rockhampton 1898-1936 and found these:
William Thomson McGavin
Formerly of Craignaught Morinish, but late of Emu Park Qld, grazier
Died at Yeppoon near Rockhampton on 8 Mar 1933
Executors: Robert McGavin Willoughby Marsh of Lovandee, Nth Rockhampton – grazier and Margaret Jessie Isabel Marsh of Emu Park, spinster.
Description of property:
Furniture £ 43-0-0
Money in Savings Bank £ 28-15-10
Interest in firm of McGavin Bros £ 5897-10-7
All real and personal estate to nephew Robert McGavin Willoughby Marsh and 2 nieces Margaret Jessie Isabel Marsh and Mary Henrietta Rose Marsh
Death Cert:
Died 8 Mar 1933 in the district hospital Yeppoon
Grazier, male 84 years
Died from senile decay
Father: Robert McGavin, grazier, mother: Margaret Skelly
Buried 9 Mar 1933 in Rockhampton Cemetery
Presbyterian
Born Glasgow
Been in Australia in Qld for 72 years
Not married/no children
On the back of the will was written that an explanation was required as to which is correct, Thomson which was on all documents, or Thompson which is how the name is spelled on the d/c.
Mary Reid Marsh
Widow, died intestate on 20 Apr 1899, late of Rockhampton
Son Francis Henry Montgomery Marsh, grazier, is administrator
Other children:
Margaret Jessie Isabel Marsh
Mary Henrietta Rose Marsh
Robert McGavin Willoughby Marsh
Also mentions John Adam Skelly McGavin of Craigsnaught and William Thomson McGavin
Death Cert:
Died 20 April 1899 lived Bolsover(?) St Rockhampton
Widow, age 59 years
Died of Influenza Sy…cope?
Father: Robert McGavin grazier, Mother: Margaret Skelly
Informant: John Murray, brother in law, Bolsover St Rocky
Buried Rocky ceme – Presbyterian
Born Glasgow, 37 years in Qld.
Children: Francis … – 52 yrs
Margaret … 30/36 (couldn’t read number), spinster
Mary … 27, spinster
Robert … 25, station hand
… then I ran out of time...
I’ll let you digest all that. I don’t think there’s actually a great deal that is new to you. Have a think, get it all organized, see where the gaps are, and write me another list of lookups required ;D.
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Ruskie
That has answered at least one important question though............ Robert MCGAVIN did come out to Australia with the rest of his family. So there has to be a death for him somehwere in the Indexes............
I am off to the Library again next week, so I will check between the two dates that you have given and I will see what comes up for a Robert, regardless of surname, with the right parents names ( if shown ).
I sent off all the transcriptions of the deaths and marriages from the Indexes to Janet today, so between us I hope that she now has a much more complete view of the extended family. Finding Robert's death would be a huge bonus though.
When I get back to the Library I will do the births for her as well.
I recommended that Janet contact the Central Queensland Historical Society ( and I am going to send her the address etc ) in case there is something in their Library that pertains to this family. They seem to have been fairly well documented with their businesses etc, so with luck there will be something that helps out a bit more.
Great job by the way. Many thanks for helping to add to the information bank on this lot.......... I can only hope that we have done some good with our searches
Have a great long weekend.......
Karenlee
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Hi Karen,
Yes, I'm sure Robert must have a will somewhere :-\. His death is a bit of a puzzle, .... unless he died out west somewhere and they just buried him and didn't register the death :o - or maybe he was murdered by son Robert and that is why Margaret excluded him from her will ;D.
Just had a thought - as I couldn't find Robert's death, I didn't look for a will for him between 1862 and 1878. As there are so few wills in the Central Region books, I think it would be easy for me to check for a will between these dates, and I'll put it on my lookup list. McGavin is not a common name (and I haven't even found one MacGavin).
Good suggestion of yours for Janet to contact the Central Qld Historical Society. They seem to have been a fairly prominent family in the area so there might be something ...
See what you can find at the Library next week. I'll go to the Archives again maybe the week after next, to follow up on any of your finds if necessary, and to do any more lookups for Janet.
Enjoy your weekend too Karen.
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Hi Karenlee and Ruskie,
Thank you so, so much for all the information you've gathered for me :D :D - a complete stranger!!
I'm sorry I didn't see your replies earlier, please don't think I'm rude for not replying - but I had to take my 80 year old mother to see "Dancing on Ice" last night (oh joy of joys!) and have been out most of today at a competition with my horse. We're (horse and I) out again tomorrow, then off to see relatives on Monday and have visitors on Tuesday - so it's going to be a few days before I get a chance to put together all the information you've found for me. I was supposed to be clearing the dining room table (more commonly known as my family tree office) but fat chance of that now !!
Another really exciting development is that I've had a contact through Genes today - and she's related to ........... Robert McGavin!!! Apparently he died in Sydney, Australia 30.3.1871 - so that'll be why there's no sign of him dying in Queensland ::). Maybe she'll be able to fill in some of the missing information ;).
Must go and get ready for tomorrow, but thanks again for all your help.
Janet
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Hi Janet,
Well that IS good news that you've found Robert!
It sounds like you have a busy few days. Good luck with it all ;).
I'll let you sort all your information out and wait till I hear from you again before I go to the Archives again. I'm in no rush, so take your time.
Hope your genes relative turns up some great information for you.
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Arrrgh. Should have thought of NSW...... sometimes I wonder about myself.......
Oh well, so pleased that you finally found at least one of the Robert's that we are after.
Have fun sorting it all out, and get back to me when and if you need more stuff looked for at the Library.
Karenlee
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Karen, As they all arrived in Brisbane, lived and died around Rocky and Brisbane, it seems logical that Robert would have done the same. I wouldn't have thought to check other States.
I wonder why Robert was in Sydney? I'm thinking of your Thomson's Janet, and wonder if they arrived in Sydney as I couldn't find them arriving in Qld - the McGavin's and Thomsons may have kept up some kind of business together. That may explain Robert's Sydney visit?
Or maybe I'm letting my imagination run away with me ;).
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Hi Ruskie
Just to mention - you often don't find death certificates in wills pre 1890 - I gather around 1893+ they are usually part of probate, but before that not so.
Can I suggest sometimes it is better if all the information is given on a thread, rather than PM (unless it relates to living folks). It is then possible for others to add any information they may have, especially if the search wanders into other states.
Trish
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Yep Trish, I knew there was some kind of cut off point date wise for d/c's being included with wills but can never remember the years .... anything with numbers in does not sink in :-\
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Hi Ruskie and Karenlee,
At last I've had time to look at all the information you've gathered for me. I've a few little questions/comments - so here goes!
On the passenger list I'm presuming that the Jane should be James - the age is correct and there was no sign of a Jane on the 1861 census. But - I wonder who Matthew (aged 7) is? He wasn't on the 1861 census with the family, I've just tried to look for him on Ancestry but the internet is going soooooo slowly I gave up! >:( I'll try again tomorrow.
Margaret McGavin's Will - When she wrote it (1878) her daughter Mary Reid was already married to Henry MARSH, but Margaret didn't marry John MURRAY until 1882 so maybe that had something to do with her comments (according to the Australian Biog site John ended up as an MP and was a wealthy landowner). Maybe Elizabeth (my new Genes contact) will be able to fill us in about Robert!! ;)
Mary Reid MARSH's Will - I've committed the researchers sin of writing on a scratty piece of paper "Mary Reid Marsh, Central District, Will No. 1899/22 A/18752 Z290" but can't remember where I found the reference!! Anyway, on the Queensland BMD site I found an "Unnamed Male" Marsh b 1867 who could be her son Francis (if he was 32 not 52!), and also Margaret Jessie in 1869, but no sign of a birth record for Mary Henrietta Rose (c1872) or Robert McGavin Willoughby (c1874).
Would you be able to help me fill in a few other dates?
The MARSH Family
Francis Henry Montgomery - I found him in the Electoral Rolls, married I think to a Mary Anna and died 23.10.1954 - when did he marry, did they have any children etc.
Margaret Jessie Isabel - born 1869 - when did she die?
Mary Henrietta Rose - born c1872, died 29.5.1950 - ?dob
Robert McGavin Willoughby - born c1874, married Hilda Nance White 1924, died 17.4.1854 - ?dob or any children.
The MURRAY Family
Margaret McGavin MURRAY - died 1922, ? date
Gavin Hamilton - born 1883, married Rhona Alexandra Jenkins CAMPBELL 1920, died 1926
his son John Hamilton Gavin MURRAY, born 22.4.1922, died 1985
Colin Fitzroy - born 1886, married Irene Eleanor Hall MOODY 1914, died 14.1.1951
his children Margaret Lennox Fitzroy MURRAY, born 13.5.1915
Eslyn Lyndsay Fitzroy MURRAY, born 10.5.1916
Ian Athol Fitzroy MURRAY, born 19.11.1921
Norman Robert - born 1888, married Everil Rens Cory 1918, died 1958
Margaret Jane Campbell - born 1892, died 1953
Phew!! That's it! Please tell me if I'm being too cheeky asking for even more help.
I haven't pursued the Thomson side of things any more at the moment - I think I'll wait until I've got all my papers sorted a bit before I get even more confused!!
Best wishes,
Janet
P.S. I hope you're both getting lists together of things for me to look for in Liverpool ;D ;D
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Hi Janet
I can check on the bBMD of the MARSH and MURRAY families for you when I go back to the Library next week as I will be doing the MCGAVIN birth transcriptions for you then. Births do finish 1919 remember, so there will not be much there, however the Deaths do name the parents, so that helps sometimes. ( Been having a lazy week so far and not got to the Library.... sorry. )
Perhaps there will me some Obits or Death Notices for them as they are more recent.
Don't worry - I am making my Liverpool List For Janet. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Karenlee
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Hi Janet,
Yes you are being cheeky ;D!....
.... but that's OK ;) ...
(it'a fun and relaxing day out for me to go to the Archives :D)
I have taken note of the lookups and checks you need and will try to sort those out for you. I will try to get to the Archives next week sometime, but not sure what I have on next week yet, so I may not go till the week after, if that is OK.
Karen, if you're going to the library and have time to check some of the bmd's that would be great, if not, I can do those at the archives too.
A couple of quick comments:
The age of Francis Henry Montgomery Marsh in Mary Reid Marsh's will appeared to 52, however looking at the ages of other children I think your estimate of 32 seems more likely. I will recheck this. The will is on film, so is not as clear and harder to read than wills on paper, or I may have written the number down incorrectly.
Similar for Jane vs James on the immigration film. I will recheck, but it appears to be Jane on both lists I found :-\. Matthew? He's on both lists as well :-\. Perhaps one list was copied from the other therefore they're both wrong? These lists are in bound books (I don't believe the original films are kept at the archives). They are really awful damaged copies. I will check with the Archivist about whether the originals are viewable and why there are two lists.
Don't worry Janet I MIGHT just have a little lookup for you in Liverpool . I will PM you with my request ;)
Speak to you soon.
PS Just read your message Karen :)
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Hey Ruskie
Checking the BMD is find with me....... I promised the MCGAVIN Births transcribed, so I can check the rest while I am at it.
Your Liverpool lookup for Janet may be little.............. but mine 8) 8)
Watch out Janet is all I can say. ;D ;D ;D
Karenlee
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My l'ppol lookup is just a birth (or two).
.... Poor Janet ... but she DID offer ;D
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Hi Janet (and Karen ;))
I'm back ...... Some lookups and checks for you Janet:
Age of Francis Henry Montgomery Marsh in will of Mary Reid Marsh, was 32 not 52 (had to change the lens and zoom in really close to see it :D)
Could not find a birth for Mary Henrietta Rose Marsh c 1872
Could not find birth for Robert McGavin Willoughby Marsh c 1874
He married Hilda Nance White 29 Jan 1924
No death looked for yet. No children looked for.
Could not find a marriage for Francis Henry Montgomery Marsh to Mary Anna (surname unknown). Where did you get the name of his wife? I looked for children born to this couple in the BMD fiche 1890 to 1914 – I checked list of father’s names for births with father’s name Francis, but could find none.
Margaret Jessie Isabel Marsh born 9 Jan 1869
No death looked for as yet.
Margaret McGavin Murray (in index as Margaret Murray) died 29 May 1922, father Robert McGavin, mother Margaret Kelly.
Norman Robert Murray born 5th Feb 1888
Married Everil Rens Cory 8 Aug 1918
Died 30 Oct 1957
Margaret Jane Campbell Murray born 25 Feb 1892
Died 7 Oct 1953
Gavin Hamilton Murray born 3 Aug 1883
Married Rhona Alexandra Jenkins Campbell 24 Nov 1920
Died 1 Sept 1926
Colin Fitzroy Murray born 19 Mar 1886, father John, mother Margaret McGavin
Married Irene Elenore Hull Moody 16 Feb 1914
No death looked for. No children looked for.
Could not find a will for Robert McGavin in southern district (which I checked 'just in case') after 1871. :-\
Found these wills:
McGavin James Harvey, McGavin Margaret, McGavin Matthew
(from the index I can’t tell what years these people died – if interested please let me know).
Perhaps Karen would be kind enough to double check the BMDs I couldn’t find, missed or ran out of time. I did not check alternative spellings.
More to come ....
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..... I re checked the passenger list:
Two lists, first list made in Glasgow and second list made in Qld. Both lists have Jane, female age 16. Originals are in bad condition and in the National Archives (so i couldn't view them). Archivist said film is just as bad as paper copy.
I read the Health Officers Report for the “Helenslee”.
General Summary:
sailed from Glasgow 20th April/ no ports touched/ no cargo or passengers picked up/ 18 cabin passengers (this includes the McGavins)/ 301 intermediate passengers/ 319 in total/ no epidemics etc/ 12 cases of whooing cough – five fatal/ no sickness on board/ 1st case of illness 19th April/ last case of illness 6th June/ 5 children died of whooping cough, 1 from consumption, 1 from convulsions (I think?)/ whooping cough was brought on board/ no quarantine necessary.
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and lucky 2nd last ....
Struck a little goldmine today. I discovered land orders. Have never used them before, but the archivist suggested I check them as the copy of the immigration record was so poor. Your Robert is mentioned MANY times but I ran out of time before I could check any of them.
Land orders are a voucher system to help immigrants settle in Queensland. They don’t contain details about the locality of property. Doesn’t look like they give much additional info, but may give details about ship and date of arrival. The value of land orders varied and so did the conditions under which they were issued.
Co-incidentally, I discoved some correspondence between Robt McGavin and others about the subject of land orders. Letters are on film and are quite difficult to follow, but I believe I got the gist of them.
I took a copy of the first letter I found which was written by Robert in Rockhampton, dated 20th Sept 1862, and sent to someone in the Colonial Secretary’s Office. He enclosed the correspondence he had with a Mr Jordan about the ship 'Helenslee'. He wanted to tell the Govt about Mr Jordan’s interference with ships loaded from Scotland. He wants to place a shipping house at Glasgow on the same terms as that of Mr Baines & Co (Liverpool) without the control of agents.
After reading and copying that letter, I discovered that there were many more pages of correspondence between various people dating back from before Robert left Scotland. There is lots of too-ing and fro-ing of letters between various important people.
The gist of the letters as I understand it is:
Robert is trying to get Scotch immigrants of good quality to move to Qld. He wants to pay their fares, when they arrive in Qld, they give him their £18 land orders, they work to pay him back the cost of the fare and then he returns their land orders. If they don’t pay, he keeps the land order. Mr Jordan says this is illegal. The only exception is that you can do this if you take a few of your own servants. Robert writes back defending his plan. He says not many people will travel as they can’t afford their own fares.
James Baines wrote a letter dated 30 Jan 1862 telling about the trouble and risk they took to set up their emigration business to Qld, and if a shipping company to oppose them is set up, they will offer as good or better rates. They have a deal with the Qld Govt complying with regulations.
In another letter Robert refers to the “fine new British built ship ‘Helenslee’ property of Messrs Patrick Henderson and Co.”. Robert says he wants to help him fill up the ship. Robert says how good the Helenslee is and how it compares well to any of Mr Baines ships (he’s been friends with Mr Patrick Henderson for 20 years).
Mr Jordan talks of £18 trips and trafficking in land orders. A quote about Robert:”when I first wrote to you I had been given to understand that you were a large capitalist :o intending to proceed to Queensland to grow cotton and intending to take out your own labour from Scotland some 300 persons”.
Robt says he was approached to pay for his worker’s passages and they offered to work for him to pay this back. He said he thought he was aiding the Govt by doing this (encouraging emigration), but says if he’s wrong he will stop. He says he is taking some workers out with him. He asks for an explanation about the land grants – says he wants to help the Qld Govt and will do nothing contrary to their wishes. He says: “I have been too long a Magistrate of Lanarkshire to feel any inclination either to break or evade the laws of any Government”. He agrees he is a “large capitalist” :o and refers to a note taken at a meeting discussing "how much you have to expend, with the returns which might be expected”.
more to come ....
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.. and lucky last ...
Letter from Henry Jordan says Robt will not be able to satisy the Colonial Govt that is is just a loan – he says Robt will charge interest – and that Robt needs a legally drawn agreement, and even then it would not be approved. He explains what he land order scheme is about, the 3 types of immigrants (anyone can come if they pay own fare, but free and assisted must have medical and other suitability tests before being allowed to emigrate) – he says rules are made and unless they are fully carried out are useless. He says their arrangements meet their requirements and they do not need to be supplemented by any other plan – he tells Robert to cancel his arrangements for assisting others - says Robert and his family will get their land orders and (the following is underlined) “ if you bring others out you cannot claim land order for them and you would be introducing persons without any control or guarantee of their fitness”.
Janet, I don’t know how interested you are in this correspondence, but there was too much to photocopy or take detailed notes. If you like, next time I go to the Archives I can try to put this onto a USB drive and send it to you via email. NB. I am technologically challenged, have never done this before, but hope someone in the archives will be able to assist.
The letters were a bit hard to follow (letters weren’t in order) but very interesting. Have posted these extracts on here because I thought others following this thread may be interested. It does give some insight into the characters of these people, their personalities, what drives them etc. Was Robert trying to pull a swifty, or was he being a good guy and trying to help his countrymen and the Queensland Governement? Interesting to read both points of view.
;D
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Ruskie
Downloading the images is so very easy - you will wonder why you didn't do it before ;D You simply line up the image on screen as if you were going to print it & then open the scanner software - once the staff have shown you - you will fly - it is quick too ;D
The land grant letters sound so interesting to me - My folks paid their "benefactor" for land as part of their passage - and never got it as the govt said it had not offered same. There was quite a problem in the early days - if folks paid their own fare it was thought they were "rich" and could afford to pay for their land - but if they paid their own fare, they usually didn't have money left for land.
Robts ideas do sound a little sus! Lots of folks (often the Scots) came up with many wild ideas for immigration - they were seriously keen on populating Australia with protestants.
Trish
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I'm sure you're right about downloading images Trish. There look to be about 4 film viewers set up with PC's ready to go. I'm quite keen to try it actually ;).
Yes, the land orders do look interesting. A useful resource I wasn't aware of.
Robert does appear to have a few land orders (but as I said I ran out of time before I could investigate further) - probably just for family members. There definitely aren't 300 + for all the passengers aboard the Helenslee. There must have been many scams around to rip off illiterate immigrants.
Be interesting to find out more about the land given to immigrants, how much they got, where it was etc. I believe there were conditions attached, eg you had to clear the land for farming.
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The ones on the RHS as you walk into the viewer room are set for scanning - I was annoyed last time I went because I didn't know they had any & I didn't have my memory stick with me! I've been using them at the state library, so much quicker than transcribing - and it's free - no printing costs :) :)
I haven't looked at many land records - but I know of one in NSW which included the immigation details of my ggg grandfather - tis the only place we found as to when he arrived and the name of the ship - so they can be very useful
Trish
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They're quite new I think Trish. There are a lot of changes going on at the Archives at the moment - the new building looks complete and the landscapers have been planting away (loads of grass which seems odd, what with the bushy setting and the drought)- I would have thought indigenous plants would have suited better. :-\. )
Even the reception area has had an unnecessary makeover. Big spends ... I must have a look at their website to see what they're going to fill the new building with.
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I always remember when we got the new Indooropilly library. Great place - well decorated - the books fitted in the back corner - they didn't buy anything new to put in same. they have since given part of it away to use as the Council enquiry/payment centre ::) ::)
It's hard to imagine the archives reception area needed a makeover - I thought the State govt was supposedly spending all it's money on hospitals ::) It would be lovely if they used some money for scanning & making more information easily available. I can live in hope!
Trish
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Ruskie,
Thank you for all this - hmmmm - it does sound a little dubious doesn't it, but I don't suppose we'll ever know what his intentions were. I'm also technically challenged, but it would be interesting to read the letters if it's as easy as it sounds to copy them on to a stick thingy, but please don't bother if it takes up a lot of time. I feel that I should try and find a book to read about emigrants to Australia - I've read the Secret River but that was more about convicts than people who paid to go.
I think I said earlier that I've had a contact through Genes from one of Robert's descendents - only a brief contact so far, but maybe she will know some more about the family - I hope to hear from her again after the weekend and have told her about this thread.
With regard to the possible marriage of Francis Marsh to Mary Anna - I think I must have put two and two together from one of the Electoral Rolls where she appears at the same address as Mary Anna Marsh - I'll have another look. Also, I think the Wills for James Harvey etc. may be the children of Matthew McGavin rather than Robert but I'll check in the morning.
Thanks again,
Janet
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You're right Trish - the reception area seemed all new and clean before the makeover :-\. They've painted, "resurfaced" the reception desk, put in fancy new opaque windows with images on, plus backlit glass panels etc .... and they're only the few things I've noticed. I can only imagine what's gone on behind the scenes. I'd like to see a couple of new fiche readers and more than 2 sets of BMD fiche as well as reliable online resources. The readers are often occupied even when there aren't many researchers.
Janet, I'd love to try to get those images for you. I'll do so next time I'm at the archives. It should only take a minute or two. ;)
I'll be very interested to see if your Genes contact knows any more - please let us know what you find out.
Let me know what I've missed and I'll try again next time. In the meantime Karen may be able to fill in some of the BMD gaps if she gets to the Library.
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Hello to Jan, Ruskie and Karenlee,
I have finally got some time to try and catch up on your huge amount of correspondence. Just to tackle a few of your queries I've noticed. There is a small book published by: EILEEN B JOHNSON, PO BOX 4185, TINANA. QLD.4650 AUSTRALIA. the book is called "They Came Direct The Helenslee".
She has done a lot of research on the Helenslee as well as many other ships that came to Australia. I can't remember how much a copy is but I think it was only about $20. There are copies of all the letters between Robert McGavin and the relevant authorities as well as lots of other interesting details about the ship and its voyage. Interesting details about how a number of ships arrived at this time and doubled the population of Rockhampton in a few weeks. It was a very well run ship with few deaths etc and lots of church and sunday school.
So there could be some truth about populating QLD with prebyterians, as they were a very religious famly. If you go to www.electricscotland and look up significant scots - William McGavin (Robert's Brother) it will show you how deeply involved they were. William has huge memorial built to him as the quthor of the "The Protestant". And very involved in the temperence movement. Have also traced their name back to being one Robert McGavin as being one of some of the "Coventanters" ( those who opposed the king to uphold scotish protestant church in 1600"s) - these were the guys who got hung drawn and quartered.
I recently went to Scotland to try and find more details and found the original family farm "Darnlaw Farm" near Cumnock where Robert was born. I couldn't reconcile how seemingly ordinary tenant farmers had been so well educated and branched out so quickly into such seeminly educated positions in life.
Darnlaw Frm was part of Lord Auchinleck's Estate and the Lord was James Boswell who was the very famous author of Samuel Johnson's Biography and he allowed the boys to be educated with his children for a short time on the estate. I met the current owners of the farm (and the took me on a tour of the area and the manor house that still stands. The farm is just as it was in Roberts time and has most of the original features on the outside - of course modernised inside. I have some photos if anyone is interested.
I haven't consumed all your mail as yet but in answer to another question I noticed. Robert died in Sydney of softening of the brain and is buried at Balmain - Matthew died in Sydney as well. They didn't last too long after they got here.
If you not bored to death I have lots more on their history in Scotland,
Jan I am very interested in the Skelly history with St Vincent Island as this was one thread that I could remember hearing as a child that I had not been able to make a connection wikth and was beginning to think it was a legend so I'm very excited about this thread.
More later
Elizabeth
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Just marking! But must say how I have enjoyed this thread,
Abiam
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Hello Elizabeth and welcome to rootschat! It is great to have you join in this thread.
This is a very interesting family ;D. Any pictures and anything at all you can post is really most welcome. I, for one would be interested to learn about the family in Scotland.
It would be very worthwhile for Janet to purchase the book you recommend. It seems the sort of book which should be in our archives. It is fascinating to find out the stories of these people.
Do you mind telling us where you fit into the McGavin family? Do you know what relation you and Janet are to eachother?
Do you know if Robert left a will - I have been unable to find this in Qld as yet, but as he died in Sydney I don't know where it may be, if there is one? Do you know what he was doing in Sydney? How long was his illness?
This is all very exxciting!
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Here you go Janet:
You can order online and pay with the credit card ;). This company is reliable.
http://www.gould.com.au/SearchResults.asp?Search=helenslee
PS. Are you able to help Janet and tell her who Janet and William are. who travelled with Robert McGavin and family on the Helenslee?
PPS. Is Robert's correspondence transcribed or photgraphed, do you know? I'm sure Janet would appreciate seeing his lovely writing ;D .....
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Thanks Ruskie,
I'd spotted the Gould site earlier today after a google search, but as you now say they're reliable, my order is already winging it's way to them!
I've just done a quick calculation on my family tree maker, and I think Elizabeth and I are 4th cousins once removed.
Still no sign of Janet and William Thomson - I daren't put another question about them on here just yet as I'm sure I'll get really snowed under with information and even more confused! ::) :o
We recently had a very unexpected holiday (a relative was ill :( and we were asked at 5 days notice if we'd like to go :D) in the West Indies on an island only 30 miles from St Vincent and had hoped to get there to look for records of Adam Skelly (Margaret's brother), but the flight was cancelled because it was overbooked (?) :'(. Since we got home I've managed to find a paid researcher on the island (this was before I discovered the fantastic Rootschat) so hopefully I'll be getting some information from there soon.
Janet
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Hi Janet,
Please let us know about any interesting revelations in the book. Look forward to you receiving it.
I'll see what Elizabeth says about Robert's letters in the book - if they're transcripts, I'll still get the images for you from the archives. If they're images of the letters, you probably won't need me to get them from the archives. (But let me know if you still do ;)) Unfortunately they're on film, so not as nice and 'hands on' as if they were the original letters.
I think it would be best if you started another thread for each person/family you're looking for (I know there is some cross-over). If you want to start one for Adam, don't forget to add a link to this thread. Similar for the Thomsons. This will save people searching through records that may have already been searched in the hunt for your McGavins, and provide people with some background on the families.
I couldn't find the Thomsons coming into Queensland, but they may have gone to another state, America, New Zealand ... England ;) - anywhere. Adam and David aren't overly common names, so (in theory) should be a little easier to track down ;)
;D
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Hi Ruskie and Janet,
A couple of answers and a couple of questions.
Robert and Margarets children were as I see it Janet 1836, Mary 1838, Robert 1840, JOhn Adam 1844, James 1845, Jane 1846, William 1849, Agnes 1855, Margaret 1854. Agnes died 8mth old in Sept 1855 of TB buried Glasgow necropolis.
The rest of the eight children seem to listed as traveling on the Helenslee with them although there is some doubt about the Matthew that is listed on the passenger list and James is not on the list and MAtthew is the right age for it to be James - this could be an error in transcribing ???? Seems reasonable to assume that all the children would travel with the family.
The book on the ship is mostly transcribed, particularly the letters of Robert. There are some photo copies in the back but they are of a more general nature.
I would love to have a copy of something Roberts hand if that could be arranged as well I would be very grateful.
Are you connected in some way to the family Ruskie?
I some crib sheets with a shortened version of the family's movements in Scotland which I can send by e-mail - I will send them to you Janet, and you if you wish Ruskie.
I shall also send some photo's and one interesting one of their old address at "Ibox Holm" where they were living in the 1841 census. Went to have look at the address when there but the houses are now gone and a council estate there but the old terrace houses were still behind the estate. When you see the photo you can see where the trees are still growing in the same position in the oval.
There was also quite an influence in Kilwinning as there were two streets and a rather large park named after them. I think Roberts brother lived there at some stage.
Cheers Elizabeth
PS - Haven't found Roberts will - shall investigate that further - something I haven't really looked for as yet.
Have tried to post some photo's but the files are all too large so I'll email them.
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Hi again,
To another questsion regardin Roberts Death I got his death certificate and its lists the following details that may be of interest.
Died 30th March at Nicholson Street, Balmain (Sydney)- listed as Robert McGavin - Gentleman Male 61 years died of Softening of the brain - Father Robert McGain Merchant - Mother MAry Reid - certified by Margaret McGavin wife.
Buried at Balmain Cemetry - It seems he had only been in NSW for 7 months at time of death - Children of marriage listed as four males and two females living and two males deceased.
The list of children is interesting as they don't seem to account for Agnes's death in scotland so counting her that adds up to 9 children instead of the 8 I have which Is another mystery?? Also that meant that two males died from the time of arrival till 1871 - I don't know which ones at this stage.
Cheers Elizabeth
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Thanks Elizabeth,
Well I will certainly get copies of those letters sent to both of you. Robert does have lovely handwriting ;). Not sure when I'll next get to the archives - maybe a week or two if you can wait that long ;D.
Not sure about the 'different' children travelling out with the family. I was told that the first list was compiled before departure, and the second list upon arrival - presumably by two different people, so unsure if there was a mistranscription. It's a bit of a puzzle.
Interesting that Margaret was in Sydney with Robert when he died. I wonder if Robert was doing some kind of business there. I will have to look up 'softening of the brain' - maybe he went to Sydney for medical treatment?
Re his d/c. Yes, strange that Agnes isn't counted as a dead child. You would think that Margaret would have given all these details. However if someone else did, perhaps they didn't know about Agnes?
I am not connected to the family - just doing a few lookups for Janet. I feell like a am a relative though ;). Yes, please, do send anything you can via email, I would be very interested to see.
If you are clever enough to manage to post any images etc on this thread, that would be good (as other readers may also be interested).
;D
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Hi Elizabeth and Ruskie,
It is a bit puzzling about the McGavin children isn't it?!
According to the 1851 census there were Janet/Jessie (1836), Mary (1838), Robert (1841), John (Adam Skelly) (1844), James (1847) and William (1849).
In 1861 there were Janet, Mary, Robert and John and Margaret (1852), and James and William were at school in Taunton, Somerset (I'm pretty sure it's them - the census there says they were born in Scotland and the ages would fit).
Agnes was born and died in 1855 (on her birth certificate it says she was Margaret's 8th child and there were 4 boys and 4 girls living).
My theory about the passenger lists is ;) , that Jane should read James (the ages could fit), errrr, but I don't know where Matthew fits in! ;D
According to the dates I have, Janet died in 1868 and 3 boys were still living when Robert Snr died in Sydney in 1871 (not too sure when Robert (the one excluded from Margaret's Will) died). So to my totting up there would have been 2 females living, 3/4 males living and 2 females deceased.
I hope this makes sense (it did to me when I started the message but I'm not too sure now! ::)).
Janet
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I forgot to say, I'm waiting for a film to come into my local LDS centre which will hopefully have dates of birth for the McGavin boys - maybe that'll help us sort them all out - I'll make sure I look for Matthew and Jane just in case!
The centre has been closed for a couple of weeks, but I'm sure they said they re-opened on the 20th.
Janet
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To Ruskie,
Thanks for the offer getting the copies of letters when eer it suits you is fine. Let me know the cost so I can reimburse you.
Can you let me know your e-mail address as well so I can send on photo's to you.
Checked out wills in NSW and have to write for them so will do that ASAP.
I'll keep trying to post images on the thread but may be too technical for me - when I send the images by email it says that are only 200KB but when I try to post them on the thread they say that they are too big and over 500kb.
Elizabeth
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Hi Janet and Ruskie,
I have the death of Robert McGavin(the disowed one) Died Clermont QLD 28th December 1902.
I have found the details of a headstone errected in a cemetry in scotland will have to check notes can't remember which one at present which may be of interest.
In Memory of MArgaret Wife of Robert McGAvin late Merchant of Glasgow.
Died 25th July 1886 age 75 years.
Also of her daughter Mary Reid Mearsh who died April 20th 1899 aged 59 years.
John Adams Skelly McGavin died 8th October 1921 age 77 years.
James (Matthew) McGavin
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Hi Janet and Ruskie,
I have the death of Robert McGavin(the disowned one) Died Clermont QLD 28th December 1902.
ANOTHER MYSTERY SOLVED:
I have found the details of a headstone errected in a cemetry in Scotland will have to check notes can't remember which one at present . but it solves the Matthew - James query.
In Memory of Margaret Wife of Robert McGAvin late Merchant of Glasgow.
Died 25th July 1886 age 75 years.
Also of her daughter Mary Reid Marsh who died April 20th 1899 aged 59 years.
John Adams Skelly McGavin died 8th October 1921 age 77 years.
[]bJAMES (MATTHEW) MCGAVIN died 27th December 1924 age 78 years.
William Thompson McGavin died 8th March 1933 age 84 year.
So I think this solves the problem of James and MAtthew I felt they were the same as the birth dates matched. They seemed to change names and middle names around a bit back th - same with Jessie she is sometimes called Jessie and sometimes Janet.
I haven't really done a lot iwth what I found during my visit as had a girlfriend die whilst I was away which through me for a while. So this contract with you has thrown me back into catching up with it all. I was so confused when I was over there with so many McGavins and incomprehensible headstones and sketchy birth records I felt quite dislexic.
Other information of interest to you I feel will be these details I found at Glasgow Library with reference to the business's that Robert McGavin was involved in. This was taken from books with lists of business owner printed each year.
1850-51 McGavin & Thompson - Commission Merchants
109 and or 33 Virginia Street Glasgow.
Robert McGavin listed as Justice of the Peace acting for the lower ward.
1857-58 McGavin and Thompson Clyde Gale and Co Merchants
12 Dixon Street and Mavisbank Broomilaw.
1861 Robert McGavin of Clyde Galvanising Co.
House St Vincent Park and Business Mavisbank.
I found the address in Virginia Street, Glasgow aptly named as it was the area for tobacco merchants which I thought may tie in with the West Indies connection. Sadly they had just demolished the old building on the sight but I have a photo in any case as it shows you the style of building it would have been by others in the street.
Did not bother to find Broomilaw as it all moderised now but is was on the banks of the Clyde River where all the shipping was and there are some good old photos on the net - maybe on net with Glasgow Library digital photo section I think.
Whilst all this was going on in Glasgow - Robert Senior was in Irvine c1850 as I found this refence to him in a publication of the History of Irvine.
"In 1850 the council was willing to sell sand from the Moor to the Glengarnock Iron Company. But when in 1853 Robert McGavin a local man now based in Glasgow proposed establishing an ironworks beside the river and adjoining the railway, some concillors thought it would be a nuisance, there was a petition against it and the scheme fell through". It seems clear that councillors and the small electorate they represented were many of them antagonistic to industrial developments. and in 1858 it was reported that Irvine was retrogressing.
From our visit there it still seems to be in the same malaise.
All in all what ever I found out about the McGavins they certainly seemed to get in have a go at life.
More later when I dig it out of my bundles.
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That's all interesting information, thanks very much Elizabeth.
Someone more computer savvy than me should be able to help you with posting photos. I know there is lots of info somewhere on rootschat about how to do that ....
To send personal emails to rootschatters, you simply click on their name, then look at the bottom of the page where it says "send this rootschatter a personal message" - click on that and away you go.
If you've read this entire thread :P you'll have discovered that Janet is also looking for the Thomson (Robert's partner's) family, who seem to disappear from the census after 1861 (if my memory serves me correctly). Do you have any knowledge of their whereabouts?
Elizabeth, there will be no cost for the images of Robert's letters (if I can manage to get them onto a USB). I'll just email them to you. ;)
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Hi Elizabeth and Ruskie,
At least that solves the question of who Matthew was! When I get to see the LDS film hopefully it will confirm the boys second names (is there or isn't there a P in William Thom(p)son McGavin?) as well as give their dates of birth. Did you see the comment on the Scottish thread, that for some reason on certain films only the girls were transcribed onto the IGI?
It's been drizzling here most of the day :(, so I've been able to spend a couple of hours going through all the information I've been given without feeling guilty for not gardening or painting ;D.
Ruskie, to answer a couple of your questions, I think I put 2 and 2 together about Francis Marsh marrying a Mary Anna because on the Electoral Rolls on Ancestry for 1925, 1930 and 1936 Francis and Mary Anna Marsh are both living at the same address (and in 1925 and 1930 they are the only two Marsh's on the page).
I'm not too bothered about the Will's for James Harvey, Margaret and Matthew McGavin - I think they may be the children of Matthew McGavin - but of course if you ever found yourself with nothing to do ::).
I got excited before when I discovered the NSW BMD site - there's a Janet Thomson with parents John and Janet who died in Sydney in 1893. I couldn't immediately spot any others in the family but it might be somewhere to start, and could tie in with Robert being in Sydney when he died ?? (or am I making 5 again!!).
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Janet, I'd say it would probably be that Thomson and Thompson are interchangable which makes the hunt more difficult. For example if they write their name they may omit the p, however if they say their name for someone else to write down, it's likely that person will include a p as it's the more common spelling. Misspellings as simple as that still happen today. Even when I spell my name people often get it wrong ....
No I didn't know about girls only being transcribed on the LDS - how and why did that happen?
Your Francis and Mary Anna logic sounds reasonable Janet - wonder if they married in another State ... or maybe not at all ;)?
Your Thomson NSW find sounds like it might be worh investigating - I wonder what Elizabeth thinks about this?
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Re James & William at school in 1861, that leaves us with 7 children, however on the ship there are 8 children listed. Jane being the extra one - who is she?????????Does she exist - oh dear me another conundrum. Just when I think I've got it sorted in my head.
On the track to find her now.
Janet did you recieve any e-mails on your personal email from me ?????
Can't see where to attach pictures to the rootschat email system.
Elizabeth
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WOW
I go off for a few days.......... and you lot go nuts with all this information.
Great stuff.
I am off to the Library in the morning to track down all the MCGAVIN QLD Births until end of 1919. With luck that will help somewhat.
Karenlee
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Hi Elizabeth,
Yes, I did receive your emails, and the photos - thank you, it's great to see where they would have lived and worked.
You should have received one from me with an attachment about the Skelly's and Boyd's in St Vincent.
Got to go out now, but hope to have some time to sit down later.
Janet
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Satchwell
You can access QLD B>D>M online at Queensland Archives Search Also at QLD DEpt Justice and Attorney General Data Base.
Hope this helps
Elizabeth
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Hi Ruskie, Karen, Elizabeth,
Just to let you know the book has arrived - I'll let you know if I find anything new/exciting.
I've had a look on Ancestry for a Jane McGavin and there is one b1844 Glasgow who was housekeeper to her 4 brothers, a sister and a lodger in 1861. Could it be possible that she went with them as a maid/housekeeper and the name is a co-incidence? Would they have paid for her to go in a cabin rather than steerage?
I've put a posting on the Emigrants board and the Scotland, Lanarkshire board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,306366.0.html about Janet and William Thomson but with no response so far :( .
I finally got to the Records Office yesterday. Ruskie, I'm afraid I could find anything for you :-[, but I did find LOTS of baptisms for Karen - and surprisingly some of the Lowe children seem to have been baptised twice - in different churchs - I've never heard of that before!! I'll PM the details to you.
Oh well, I've drunk my cup of tea now, so back to the decorating!!
Janet
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Hi Janet,
The book didn't take long to arrive ;D - not a bad service. Hope it gives you some valuable information
Thanks for looking for that christening for me - shame he wasn't there, but never mind - as he was only a great uncle, so it's not the end of the world.
Um, not sure about the Jane McGavin you found. Is she around in 1871? I suppose she may have married :-\. Also, I suspect your thoughts are correct - I doubt that a servant would have travelled in a cabin. No doubt you have already done this, but have you looked at other branches of the McGavin family to see if she may fit in elsewhere?
Some of my lot (unusual surname) travelled to Australia with children with the same surname, and I have no idea who they belong to. I don't know how well the records would have been kept, or whether the authorities cared if any people travelling in family groups were not related. Wonder if Janet was a servant and not a McGavin, but either no one bothered to check, or they didn't care. Also thinking about Robert's wheeling and dealing, and there may have been some other reason why Janet is included as a McGavin ....
I will try to get to the archives this week to copy Robert's letters for you and Elizabeth. Had a bit of a disorganised week last week. Oh, just realised that my daughter has exams this week and next, so will be ferrying her to and from school at different times of the day. So will see if I have a free day for the archives.
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Hi Guys,
Its Sunday night after long drive home from the coast and my brain is not computing so well.
Re Jane McGavin I don't think it would be the same person on the census as a servant as the ages don't match. But who knows????
I have found a Jane McGavin marrying a James Spalding in 1888 (QLD) she died in 1909 listing Margaret Haggart as her mother and James McLaren as her father
There is also a MArgaret Jane Haggart McGavin who marries in 1899 a Joseph John James - possibly Janes mother - am I being dislexic again?
There must be a connection but my addled brain is having trouble working it
Ok Ok just worked it out - secound marriage for Jane she was Jane McLaren and married James McGavin in 1873 so not our Jane.
I'll bet I've got you confused now- lol
Eliz
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Hi Ruskie, Karen and Elizabeth,
I've had a look for the Jane McGavin (the housekeeper) in 1871 and can't spot her - but as you say, maybe she had married in the meantime.
As far as I know, of the Skelly children, there were only Margaret, Janet and Adam who had children. Adam only had one (my gtgtgt grandfather - with no mother at the moment ;)) but Janet and William Thomson did have a daughter "Jane C" b1849, so she would only have been 12 rather than the 16 years old Jane on the passenger list.
Another possibly interesting little snippet is that I was googling variations on McGavin, Thomson and the Clyde Galvanising Company and in google books found "The Jurist" 26.1.1861 "Scotch Sequestrations - The Clyde Galvanising Company, Mavisbank, Govan, Lanarkshire" - which I think means they went bankrupt ::). Maybe that would help explain why they left Scotland? I also found an Australian article which said "Robert McGavin of the CG Works, Glasgow was granted a Victorian patent in 1859 for making tiles with "transverse ridges or corrugations of a curved or angular figure"" which was apparently known as "The McGavin Improvement" and these tiles have been found on roofs in Australia.
I'd like to try and find out more about the Galvanising Works, but I'm sure it must be "our" Robert as in 1861 William Thomson (his BIL and business partner) describes himself on the census as an Iron Merchant.
I must try and work out how to search more accurately on google though, as there is an actor and a vet who keep cropping up regularly!!!!
Janet
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You have dug up some interesting snippets there Janet ;).
Could be worth chasing up Jane Thomson b 1849 (easier said than done I know) just in case she caught a lift with the McGavins. If it is her, I wonder if there would have been any benefit in changing her age? To be classed as an adult perhaps? If the Thomsons emigrated too as you suspect they may have done, it may be possible that Jane travelled with the McGavin's for some reason. I suppose Robert being a male may not even have known her age and filled in the form/s incorrectly (really grasping at straws here).
Janet, try an advanced search on google and you can remove the vet and the actor. ;D
(PS. Janet and Elizabeth - I still haven't forgotten about Robert's letters, just haven't got to the archives yet I'm afraid.)
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A photo I found of St Vincent Is. c1890
Add to the collection
Liz
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Liz
Thank you so much for posting the photo of St Vincent Island. My gggrandmother lost two babies of diphtheria on the voyage to Australia in 1853, and they were apparently buried there. Brought a tear to my eye, this photo did!
MarieC
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Hi Elizabeth,
Things have been a bit hectic here recently, but I finally managed to get to the LDS centre to look at the Baptism records for the McGavin family.
They don't really clarify anything, i.e. there's no mention of James being Matthew (!), and it was a good job I already knew who I was looking for, because in a couple of cases McGavin wasn't mentioned in the column for "name of child", i.e. William Thomson and Agnes Boyd - so I could easily have missed them ::). No sign of a Jane McGavin either!
Here goes, (in all cases the parents are listed as Robert McGavin and Margaret Skelly):
Janet Skelly McGavin, dob 31.8.1836, baptised 18.9.1836
Mary Reid McGavin, dob 3.7.1838, baptised 29.7.1838
Robert McGavin, dob 3.6.1840 [blank space for baptised date and Minister :-\]
John A S McGavin, dob 2.7.1843, baptised 26.8.1843
James McGavin, dob 5.12.1846, baptised 3.1.1847
William Thomson [McGavin], dob 21.9.1848, baptised 26.11.1848
Margaret McGavin, dob 27.9.1852, baptised 31.10.1852
Agnes Boyd [McGavin], dob 16.3.1855, baptised 10.6.1855
Will be in touch soon,
Janet
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Hi Elizabeth and Janet,
I went to the Archives and copied Robert's letters onto my USB drive (at last ;)).
Please let me know (by PM) the email address you'd like me to send these to.
I just hope I've done everything correctly. My daughter will help me send them to you as I am computer illliterate. ;D
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Hi Elizabeth and Janet,
I went to the Archives and copied Robert's letters onto my USB drive (at last ;)).
Please let me know (by PM) the email address you'd like me to send these to.
I just hope I've done everything correctly. My daughter will help me send them to you as I am computer illliterate. ;D
Hi Ruskie
Well done - much cheaper than printing & rather faster than transcribing - I love it for the library notices too :D
Trish
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I relate absolutely to what you said, Ruskie! I haven't learned to use that technology yet. Am sure it is very good, as Trish says - will have to summon up my courage and do it!
MarieC
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Thanks Trish. ;) It's not too difficult Marie. They had step-by step instructions, so I didn't have to embarass myself by asking for help.
However it remains to be seen whether or not I've been successful and if there are any actual images on the USB :-\. There is a list of named files, I think, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the piccies are there too.
The letters must have been written on strange sized paper because the frame on the film reader and on the computer wasn't tall enough, so I had to copy the top of the letter and then the bottom of the same letter, which gives a messy result, but I hope Janet and Elizabeth will have someone at home who's clever enough to 'merge' the images.
Oddly enough, I woke up in the middle of the night last night with one of those inspired thoughts - I should have rotated the image before copying it!
Oh dear ::) .....
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Hi Ruskie
Having the image in two parts doesn't matter at all - and they can be put together if wanted. The other think you can do is ask for a smaller lens for the machines - that fits more in the frame - as my eyesight is falling apart as the eyes age (with the rest of me) I usually ask for the bigger lenses ;D ;D
Not sure if you worked out you can set the image size in a similar fashion to the paper size when you print - so you can get A3 images. You can also use the computer to crop what you want after you scan the image, if you only want a part of the image (as with e.g. funeral notices)
When I was at the library - Everyone was asking for help - I did as well :) - the staff seemed upset if you said you knew how it worked (my 2nd visit ;D) - sometimes it is quite a wait for help at the archives - you did well 8)
Trish
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Hi again Trish,
Yes, I tried all the lenses and none was perfect. Yes, I sussed out the fact that you could enlarge the print area too - it was just the height of the image that I had problems fitting in. I didn't know about the cropping though. I suppose some of this can be done later at home by ones children ;D.
It was easy to do, and I'm anxious to see how it all turned out.
My daughter has been busy lately, so I'll probably ask her to help me tomorrow after school. Just waiting for Elizabeth and Janet to give me their email addresses.
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Hi Ruskie,
Can't wait to get your images - well done and thank you so much for your efforts, this new technology is so frustrating I just learn to do something and its out of date and not done that way any more - damn it.
I shall be off the air for a week or two am going in next week to get a new hip and then three months later two new knees - I got the trifecta - so I am going to be like a caged lion for a good few months but am hoping I can use this time to make sense of a lot of paperwork I have got piled up about the family and get it into something that is more comprehensible and do some more investigative work.
I have been off air for the last week or so as well, this all came up very suddenly with a cancellation that the Dr. squeezed me into, I only saw the surgeon for the first time two weeks ago, so its been all hectic getting organised.
Keep up the good work and I will be back in touch soon.
Cheers
Elizabeth
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Hi Elizabeth
Can you put the email address in a PM - much better than in the main threads - it will bring you spam if left there!
Best wishes for the trifector - my neighbour has the hip - working brilliantly he tells me :)
Ruskie - you know much more than you think I am sure - you sussed it all 8)
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Is PM personal mail???? New to this so don't know how it all works.
Thanks Elizabeth
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Hi Trish,
Ok worked out the PM with the little green icon - helps if you look carefully. Have delected email address off other posting as well.
Thnaks for your help and good wishes.
Cheers
Elizabeth
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Sorry - I should have realised - don't think I am being too smart today ::) - Glad you sorted it :D
The normal threads are picked up by search engines, PMs (private messages, personal messages) are between you and the receiver.
Trish
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Hi Elizabeth,
I received your PM - and thanks for the help Trish ;D.
Well all those medical proceedures are coming at a good time Elizabeth. I have about 18 pages of letters for you to go through - that'll keep you out of mischief.
And don't forget to ask rootschatters for help with any other family you're stuck on - you may as well take advantage of your recovery time.
Best of luck with your ops - I hope they go really well.
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Hi Ruskie,
Thanks. I'll PM you my address.
Hi Elizabeth,
Hope your ops go well. I started my family tree research while housebound and recovering from an operation 18 months ago! Or should I say that's when my addiction started ;D.
There's no further news on the St Vincent front I'm afraid - my researcher over there hasn't been able to find any sign of a birth record or marriage for the two Adam Skellys. It sounds as if the records are in a pretty terrible state, and one of the records offices has shut and is meant to be moving to new premises but no-one seems to know when or where. She has found some mentions of the Boyd family (siblings of Margaret McGavin's mother) so I may ask her to pursue those.
On the Skelly side, I've just made contact with someone on Genes who has "our" Skelly's in their tree - going back to the 1600's. I was delighted to find they come from Northumberland - one of my favourite places - so it looks like I'll have a good excuse to go back there on holiday ::).
Best wishes,
Janet
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Elizabeth
Best of luck with your trifecta - that's not nice at all, having to face up to three operations! :( :'( Hope you get lots of family history done while you are laid up!
MarieC
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Janet and Elizabeth,
:P ... my daughter isn't as clever as I thought. We're having terrible problems sending the files.
This message with huge attachment has been sitting in my outbox for days and every time I go into outlook express it tries to send it. Annoying.
Anyhow, I'm going to seek expert assistance on the weekend so I hope to get this sorted out then. Probably have to convert them into something else :-\.
Sorry about the delay.
:-[
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HI Ruskie and Janet,
Back in the land of the living - a little confused about who is who is Ruskie Nicole?
I was so delighted with McGavin letters, still trying to read them and take in what it all means, the writing is so descriptive its had to get to the bottom line sometimes and sort out the continuity of it all.
Still only able to sit at computer for short spells which is really annoying but each day is getting better so hopefully in next few days I''l be able to get stuck into it, as cabin fever is starting to set in.
Interested in finding out about your Skelly thread going back to 1600's how exciting. I did recall getting an email amongst the hundreds that are still sitting there unread from a Craig that seemed to have a number a hits through Genes Reunited is this the same contact? Can't wait to check this out more/
Trouble is bum is getting numb already - grrrrrrrrrrrr
Talk later
Elizabeth
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Hi Elizabeth,
Good to hear that the op went well and you're back with us. :)
I suspect the message from Craig is the guy that I've been in contact with. I've been trying to find out some more about the Skelly's and Boyd's in Ayrshire over the last couple of weeks. Craig has John Skelly (who married Janet Boyd) with father Robert Skelly from Northumberland, but I'm not convinced from what I've seen that that is correct - on the baptism records for all of the children of John and Janet he is described as John Skelly Junr - which would make me think his father is John, not Robert.
I've tried to contact Craig again but with no response so far. I've also tried to make contact with someone who has contributed information about the Skelly's in Northumberland onto the IGI, but again with no luck so far.
I feel this might be a brick wall! Without knowing where John was born, how do I know which one he is, even if I find one with a father called John?? ???
Janet