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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 01:13 BST (UK)

Title: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 01:13 BST (UK)
2nd paragraph Susan modified to Sarah.


My Grandmother was born 1865 in Little Gransden Cambs. She came to Maidenhead Berks around 1884.  Her parents were John Smith (B. 1826 Little Gransden Cambs) and Sarah Ann Webb (B.1834 Abbotsley, Hunts).  John was married previously to Susan Ann Elwood and they had six children between 1853 and 1862 four of whom died as babies and their mother Susan died in the Jun1/4 1864.

John married Sarah Ann Webb in the Dec 1/4 1864.  The two surviving children from his first marriage were Mary A Smith aged 6 and Samuel Smith aged 4 according to the 1861 census and I think these children were taken on by Susan as step children.  But, and there always is one, Mary A has become Martha A and is aged 8? Samuel name and age are correct.  Census RG 12 Piece 1005 Folio 61 Page 11

On searching the 1891 census for an unrelated family I came across an Edward Clark(B. Abbotsley Hunts) and Martha Clark (B. Great Gransden Cambs) with three children living in Norfolk Park Cottages, Maidenhead.  The children are William 14, Sarah A 11 and Emily 9 and their surname is SMITH.   Do you think this could be my Martha/Mary?  Both were born in GREAT Gransden..  The Smith children were born in Little Gransden.  I feel that it is Martha/Mary but I haven't as yet investigated the children with the Smith surname. 

Martha would have been ten years older than my Grandmother and I wonder if she and her husband Edward (from Abbotsley Hunts) came down to Maidenhead because she had a half sister in the area who was already married with two children.  If it is her half sister it was quite a coincidence to find her whilst looking for something totally different!  What do you think?

Regards, Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Friday 25 April 08 01:26 BST (UK)
It's quite a coincidence to find that while looking for something else, but that's the great thing about this game.

I'd be cautiously optimistic about Martha, and look for her marriage to Edward Clark and find them in other census, and find Martha/Mary's birth, the name Mary could have been a mistake on the earlier census.  With a name like Smith.......

they could be her children from a previous marriage to a Mr. Smith, but it looks good! (but wait till you can prove it!)

Barbara  :)
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 02:01 BST (UK)
Well, would you believe it.  I've just hunted them down!  On the 1881 census Martha Smith is married to Samuel Smith (hope it's not her brother) and they have two of the three children!  Third born after the census.  I could not find a marriage on Free BMD will have to look elsewhere tomorrow but I did find a death for Samuel Smith Sep 1/4 1881.  I also found Martha and Edward's marriage in 1889!
I am now convinced she is mine and started a new life with Edward in Maidenhead, near to her half sister.  Coincidences do happen!
Thanks Barbara for giving me the push
Regards,
Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Friday 25 April 08 09:50 BST (UK)
Sometimes surprising what writing things down does for you!  Hope it works out

Shout if you need any help

Kind regards,
Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 11:07 BST (UK)
Hi Barbara,

I have been trying to find Edward and Sarah Clark in the 1901 census without success.  I found both daughters one in Hornsey and the other in Maidenhead and possibly William back in Cambs.  I have looked in Berks and Cambs.  I do wish FindMyPast had the 1901 I find them so much easier to use!

I have also looked for their deaths in either Berks or Cams but they could have moved anywhere!  Fancy, in this case it was easier to find the Smiths,

Any further ideas welcome,
Regards,
Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Friday 25 April 08 11:27 BST (UK)

I have been trying to find Edward and Sarah Clark in the 1901 census without success.  I found both daughters one in Hornsey and the other in Maidenhead and possibly William back in Cambs. 

You mean Edward & Martha?  :)

Try under Clarke  RG13/1161 fol.51 p.35
The name has an E and William Smith is with them in Maidenhead

Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 11:59 BST (UK)
Thank you,

Must engage brain before searching!!!

Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Friday 25 April 08 12:47 BST (UK)
Having had time now to look at the earlier census, am not convinced that Mary and Martha are the same person, too big a difference in age, and on the 1871 Samuel 14 then Martha 8 makes me think Martha is daughter of Sarah, Mary probably left home to work. There's a Mary Smith aged 17 servant in Campton Beds. born Gt. Gransden, and in 1881 RG11/198  Folio 6  Page  5 a William & Mary Ann Marchmont, this Mary Ann also b. Little Gransden

Also, what about Samuel having married a different Martha from same village?


Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 13:39 BST (UK)
You got there before me!  This is getting very complicated!

1877 Marriage of Samuel Smith to Martha Bell, Caxton and in
1881 with William and Sarah their children
These 4 are living in Little Gransden with 3 of the Bell family
Next door is the Grandfather John Smith of both Mary and Martha and the Grandmother/ stepGrandmother of Mary and Martha
Also living with the Grandparents of Mary/Martha Edward Clarke age 20 ,a boarder, from Abottsley Hunts who Martha? later marries!!!
RG 11 piece 1655 Folio 74 Page 5 & 6

Not forgetting there was brother Samuel born 1857 to john Smith and Susan Elwood.

Can any sense be made of this? i can't and have to leave here for the moment, food shopping calls,
Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 13:41 BST (UK)
And I cannot find a marriage between Samuel Smith and Martha Smith!
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Friday 25 April 08 13:51 BST (UK)
And I cannot find a marriage between Samuel Smith and Martha Smith!

Don't think you need to.  I think the one you've found will probably be for Samuel son of John Smith, to Martha Bell.  Then maybe Samuel died and Martha remarried to Ed. Clarke, taking her & Sam's children with her.

Did you notice Ed Clark was a lodger with the Smiths in 1881? edit, yes I see you did!

will have another look.
Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Friday 25 April 08 18:12 BST (UK)
Hi Barbara,

I think you are right!  And there is a Samuel Smith died Sep. 1/4 1881 aged 24 poor soul.  And Martha (Bell) had 2 children and must have been expecting the third. 

So, (had the computer guy here sorting out my Outlook Express problems - stinking headache!) I think we are tallking about the brother Samuel marrying a Martha Bell (and him dying) and therefore HE is the connection with my tree!  Do tell me I've got that right!  So therefore Martha was only connected to my Grandmother by marriage?  Cannot get my head around this will have to go and lay down!!!

Thanks again, Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Friday 25 April 08 19:06 BST (UK)
That's how I see it, but I think you need a couple of birth and/or marriage certs to be sure.

And I'm looking for a marriage for William Marchmont/Mary Ann to see if that is the right Mary Ann

Here I think is young Martha later on:

1881  RG11/1199  Folio  66  Page  1
Martha is 19, servant to James, Earl of Normanton (ooh!)

1891 RG12/1688  Folio 142  Page 13
Martha is 28 and Ladies Maid in the Bishop of Exeter's household, Devon

1901 RG13/1482  Folio  103  Page 5
Martha is widowed with 2 children and would you believe called Webb, and keeper of a Coffee Tavern in Waresley Huntingdonshire


Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Saturday 26 April 08 10:10 BST (UK)
Barbara,
Couldn't sort this out yesterday when I got back.  But I think I have it now!
Could you cast an eye over it for me and see what you think.

John Smith married Susan Ann Elwood 1852 Little Gransden
Children
Mary Ann 1855   Little Gransden
Samuel 1857    Little Gransden
Plus 4 children who died within their 1st year
Susan Smith died 1864 Little Gransden

Sarah Ann Webb married William Charles Clarke 1856 Abbotsley Hunts
Children
Elizabeth 1858 (died 1861)   Abbotsley Hunts
Edward 1861      Abbotsley Hunts
William died ?

John Smith married Sarah Ann Webb 1864 Caxton Cambs
Children all born in Little Gransden
Edward 1861 (Sarah & William)
Samuel 1857  (John & Susan)
Martha A 1863
Priscilla 1865 (my Grandmother)
Clara 1871
Elizabeth 1974
Walter 1776

Samuel Smith married Martha Bell (born 1860) 1877 Caxton Cams
Children
William John 1876    Caxton Cambs
Sarah Anne 1880   Caxton Cambs
Emily Mar ¼ 1882   Caxton Cambs
Samuel died Sep ¼ 1881

Edward Clarke was a lodger (actually the son of Sarah Anne and William Clark) with John and Sarah Smith in 1881 John's son Samuel (Mother Susan) married Martha Bell who then married Edward Clark of Abbotsley 1889 after 1st husband Samuel's death in 1881.
They moved to Maidenhead Berks and that is where I found them by accident in the 1891living at Norfolk Park Cottages Maidenhead.
So in answer to my original post Mary and Martha were not one and the same.
And Martha A  Bell/Smith  was the widow of my grandmothers half brother Samuel Smith!  Also Edward Clark son of Sarah Anne and William Clark married John Smith's son Samuel's widow Martha.
I think,  If you, Barbara or anyone else can see this I'd love to hear!
Thank you for your patience, Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Saturday 26 April 08 10:42 BST (UK)
John married Susan Ann Webb in the Dec 1/4 1864.  The two surviving children from his first marriage were Mary A Smith aged 6 and Samuel Smith aged 4 according to the 1861 census and I think these children were taken on by Susan as step children. 

It mostly sounds right to me, but do be careful with your names, as above in your first posting, it was Sarah he married in 1864 and Sarah who was the stepmother! It mixed me up a bit to start with - Smith is bad enough without getting your Sarahs and Susans mixed up  :D

One thing puzzling me, and I admit I haven't looked up all the details, but if Sarah Ann Webb married William Charles Clarke in 1856, wouldn't she have been Sarah Ann Clarke when she married John Smith in 1864?  The marriage you mention for then shows John Smith marrying a Sarah Webb?????

Barbara
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Saturday 26 April 08 11:20 BST (UK)
Barbara,
I do apologise for muddling Susan and Sarah.

I've just looked up the 1871 census and Sarah and William's son is named as Edward Webb so it looks as though she chose to go back to her maiden name.  I would think if you are widowed you would normally marry again in that married name so why Sarah chose to be different I don't know.

I did follow through Martha Smith, daughter of John and Sarah, working with the up market households and she married a John Webb in June 1892.

Once again apologies for confusing you and many thanks for all your help,
Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Ecneps on Saturday 26 April 08 11:26 BST (UK)
It would be interesting to get the marriage certificate, which you probably want as she is your gt.grandmother, then you would know for sure.  If you do, would you come back and post the details?

Happy hunting, Barbara  :)
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: Abiam2 on Saturday 26 April 08 11:59 BST (UK)
Yes, I agree it would be interesting to know why.  When the coffers allow I will get the certificate and will certainly let you know,
Abiam
Title: Re: Opinion wanted, please
Post by: rickyh1950 on Wednesday 18 September 13 19:12 BST (UK)
Hi I think that Martha is my great great grandmother. I have been researching my family and think that Sarah Ann Smith is my grandmother's mother. Samuel Smith, if my family folklore is correct was killed by lightning. I think Martha then married Edward Clarke. In the 1911 census, Sarah Ann Smith & William smith are being claimed as son and daughter by Edward Clarke, suggesting he adopted them. Don't know if this clears up any issues.
best regards
rickyh