RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: elsie ellen on Monday 14 April 08 13:49 BST (UK)
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Hello from Australia! :D
I am in need of assistance with my research of the FRANCIS family from St Enoder please. As I try to piece together this family, my hair grows greyer....
Recently, I decided it was time to follow my Francis connection and so began my research knowing only that Catherine FRANCIS married Richard MURLEN (various spellings) on the 27.7.1743 in St Enoder. ::) Not much to go on, but I have scoured the St Enoder Parish Records, as best I can from here, and this is what I have found in Baptisms 1718-1742:
12.1.1718 Margaret Francis dau of John
21.1.1720 James Francis son of Richard
8.9.1721 Elizabeth Francis dau of John
28.3.1722 Jacob Francis son of Jacob
20.11.1724 Katherine Francis dau of Jacob
28.8.1727 Thomas Francis son of Jacob
From other sources I know that my Catherine was born circa 1724, and so I think they are one and the same just replacing a "C" with a "K". Catherine died in St Enoder in 1804, as did her husband, Richard.
Question: are Richard, John and Jacob, as noted in the Baptismal Records siblings? Is it at all possible to learn anything about them and/or their parentage? ??? How do I establish a connection, if indeed there is one?
From a bleary-eyed Elsie
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Hi Elsie,
They could be siblings or possibly cousins; try to find their baptisms.
If there are any Wills (often references to family members) then you might be able to establish links.
Nanny Jan
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Hi Elsie,
Have you searched on the on-line parish clerk site? www.cornwall-opc.org
A variety of info there.
Nanny Jan
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Another option is WILLS
If you search at http://crocat.cornwall.gov.uk/DServe/searchpage.htm
enter FRANCIS in First box and St ENODER in title
you will see lots of wills for people with chritian names you mention that could give you all family connections
Bye
Althea
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Hi Elsie,
John FRANCIS = Eliz VIGORS 12 Feb 1708
John TONKIN = Grace FRANCIS 12 Jun 1714
Jacob FRANCIS = Cicilly PETERS 27 Nov 1715
Richard FRANCIS = Elizabeth BAWDEN 29 Dec 1719
Too early for any further information I am afraid. :'(
I can't see any earlier marriages between one in 1640 until 1708. The records are very hard to read to try to locate baptisms. I took a look at Cornwall baptism index and there is no Jacob Francis listed as born in Cornwall 1660 - 1700.
By what I can see there are no baptisms for Jacob 1715-1718 either so with first in 1722 perhaps they lived elsewhere for a while. As I said these records are terribly hard to read but I don't see any. The OPC has done a great job on those 1718 - 1728 ones also because even knowing where to look for these I am having a hard time with the fiche. Sorry I couldn't be more help...............Kris :D
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Good morning! :) :)
Althea, Nanny Jan and Kris...thank you for both your help and suggestions.
The OPC for St Enoder has been an excellent help in my search. Her wonderful webpage has been the source of all the information I have so far. BD&Ms from over a couple of centuries I have transcribed for this name, and then I have spent countless hours trying to match and line up the families ... with some successes.
It's these really early family members who have me really stumped.
I have found a Cecelia Francis who died in 1772, aged 80. Do you think it is reasonable to assume she would be Cicilly Peters?
Grace Francis...hadn't noted her so will try to follow that further later today. That makes potentially four siblings/cousins.
I'll also search the Wills webpage this afternoon.
Thanks again.
Elsie
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There are alot of Francis from St Enoder at this tree
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=kt23457984&recno=13761
which may be worth looking at
Bye
Althea :o
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Hi Elsie,
The burial looks pretty good to me especially as we have the baptism:
The 20 Sep 1695 was baptised Sycily the daughter of Francis Peters and Sycily his wife.
Sycily, Cicilly, and Cecilia all sound pretty similar to me. (The Burial Record actually says Cicilia Francis from St Dennis was buried 20 Sep 1772 aged 80)
Francis PETERS = Cicily BENALLACK 8 Sep 1678 St Enoder..........Kris ;)
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Hi Kris and Althea!
Althea...I had a look at those trees and they follow the line of John Francis and Elizabeth Vigors. However, that is good too, as it places some of the people more definitely from the extracts I have copied. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. Much appreciated. ;D
Kris...this is awesome. ;D I went to the St Dennis OPC page to try to glean any more information about the Peters family, but unfortunately she is unavailable at the moment. The earliest of the their children's births as I have at hand was 1722. Jacob and Cicely married in 1715. Are their records accessible Kris that might indicate if they had more children in the intervening years - perhaps in St Dennis? ???
With a smile in appreciation :D
Elsie
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Hi Elsie,
Still looking I found this one
8 Sep 1716 St Enoder Jane dau of Jacob FRANCIS
Kris :D
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Good morning Kris! :)
A sister!
I await your postings in anticipation! Ever hopeful.
Thanks Kris.
Elsie
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Hi again Elsie,
I can't spot any more baptisms to Jacob but a lot of it is just so faded there is basically nothing left there. Even with a magnifying glass I just can't read it.
I thought I had found Jacobs burial
Jacob FRANCIS was buried Sep 23 1748 St Enoder.
Now I see CRO do hold the will of Jacob Francis the younger of St Enoder 1748 so looks like this is his son. Listing him as "the younger" I suspect dad was still living and probably in St Enoder at this time to need to differentiate between father and son.
also note his possible marriage just weeks earlier
Jacob FRANCIS = Elizabeth HENWOOD 28 Aug 1748 St Enoder
Alas I see no burial for another Jacob listed but there is listed the will of Jacob Francis of St Enoder 1762 (The burials for this period are very clear so I am certain he is not listed as buried in St Enoder)
Richard and Catherine's marriage is the 21st of July - not the 27th. I would give the name as Morlen. There is not much in it - it could be Morten. definately an O - lovely clear entry just not a lot between his L's and his T's. :-\
Kris :D
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Kris...saying thank you seems so inadequate for all the time and effort you have put into finding and interpreting this information for me. :) :)
You are a "genie" treasure!!! ;) I always appreciate your kind help.
I have just opened my emails after being away for approx 10 days, hence no response earlier.
Cheers
Elsie
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hi elsie i have in my family tree re Genes Reunited a CATHERINE FRANCIES 1724 st enoder married to a RICHARD MORLEN 1724 also from st enoder there daughter catherine 1745 married to JOSEPH OSBORNE 1745 st colomn major becoming my g g g g grandparents on my fathers side ,any help ?
dennis osborne penzance
ps i have her siblings if needed
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Hi Elsie
I'm also researching FRANCIS in the same area. My greatgrandfather was Jacob FRANCIS, gggrandfather was Esau FRANCIS, ggggrandfather was Isaac FRANCIS, gggggrandfather was Thomas FRANCIS; possibly ggggggrandfather was John FRANCIS of St Enoder - he married Grace Liddicoat in 1760. Beyond that it's just guess work, but I believe I probably go back to the Richard FRANCISes of the 1500s and 1600s.
Judy
John FRANCIS was born 1738 and christened on 26 Dec 1738, in St Columban’s Major. He married Grace LIDDICOAT on 5 March 1760 at St Columban’s Major in Cornwall. Grace was born in 1741 in St Columban’s Major, probably to Anne LIDDICOAT and George STRONGMAN. She was christened there on 16 July 1741.
They had the following children
• Mary FRANCIS, christened 15 April 1760, in St Columban’s Major
• Thomas FRANCIS, christened 10 August 1763 in Bodmin, Cornwall, married Frances RICKARD. (###my line)
• Francis FRANCIS (male), christened 25 July 1766 in Bodmin, Cornwall; probably married Elizabeth PETERS then Grace BROAD
• John FRANCIS, christened 13 November 1768 in Bodmin, Cornwall
• Ann FRANCIS, christened 2 April 1771 in Bodmin, Cornwall; probably married Richard HOPGOOD
• Philippa FRANCIS, christened 9 September 1778 in Bodmin, Cornwall; married John PEARSE/PEARCE
• Elizabeth FRANCIS, christened 17 April 1781 in Bodmin, Cornwall; married Walter HOOPER
.......
### *Thomas FRANCIS b abt 1775 Lanivet Bodmin; married 9 April 1793 at Withiel, CON, ENG to Frances RICKARD/RICHARD b Withiel
Children:
1. Ann chr 11 Apr 1794: St Gomonda - the Parish Church of Roche Parish 2. Mary chr 8 Dec 1795 St Gomonda - the Parish Church of Roche Parish 3. John chr 22 Oct 1797 Withiel (1851 census Bodieve Egloshayle (50) Lab) marr ??? Mary PARKINS 4. Thomas chr 21 July 1799 Withiel ?? marr Eliz RUNNALS 30 Dec 1824 Bodmin 5. Francis (Fanny) chr 22 July 1804 Withiel 6. Isaac (twin) chr 23 Nov 1806 Withiel mar Elizabeth ROACH (***my line) 7. Rebecca (twin) chr 23 Nov 1806 Withiel 8. Mary Ann chr 27 Nov 1809 Withiel 9. Philippa chr 19 July 1812 Bodmin; mar 8 Feb 1835 to Samuel HICKS 10. Elizabeth chr 9 Feb 1815 Bodmin; mar Walter HOOPER 25 Mar 1848 .................
***Isaac FRANCIS (d 1876) married 22 July 1834 at Bodmin, CON Elizabeth ROACH (b 1816 Luxulyan d 1862 St Columban major)
Children:
1. Esau chr 17th May 1835 Lanivet, CON, ENG - emigrated to Australia marr Elizabeth LORTERTON (my line) 2. Jacob chr 2nd July 1837 Lanivet, CON, ENG (1841 census Mulberry Lanivet (4 yrs); 1851 census High St Padstow (13) cordwainer) 3. Rhoda Jane chr 18th Aug 1839 Lanivet, CON, ENG marr Wm HARRIS in 1862 4. Abigail chr 1842, Lanivet, CON, ENG marr Wm MAY at Egloshayle in 1862 5. Cecilia chr 1844, Lanivet, CON marr Jeremiah BATTERSHELL 4 July 1863 Padstow (b 1842 Egloshayle);master of ‘Pride of the West’
6. Eleanor (Ellen) b 1846 Padstow CON, ENG ; marr in 1865 to Thomas SKINNER
7. ????William b 1850 Padstow, CON
8. Matilda Louisa b 1851 Padstow, CON marr Charles LAWRY (b 1845 Egloshayle)(1872 in St Merryn)
9 William Thomas (Tom) b 1853 Padstow, CON (1861 census Lanadwell St Padstow 8 yrs)
10. Bessey Anne Charlotte b 1855 Padstow, CON (1861 census Lanadwell St Padstow 6 yrs) (1871 census Padstow 14 yrs) (d of TB 1871) 11. Isaac (twin) b 1859 b Padstow, CON; emig to AUS; marr Annie BEVAN 12. Rebekah (twin) b 1859 b Padstow, CON (1861 census Lanadwell St Padstow 2 yrs) (1871 census in Egloshayle 11 yrs with Matilda)( 1881 census Broad St Padstow 21 yrs unmarr dressmaker)
13 Albert b 1862 Padstow, CON (1871 census Padstow 9 yrs); ?? mariner 1881 census
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Hi Judy,
What lovely photos ;D
Here are your Padstow baptisms. It looks like Matilda Louisa and William Thomas may have been baptised twice once privately and later publically
Ellen Frances FRANCIS Nov 8 1846 Padstow father lab of Padstow
Matilda Louisa FRANCIS 11 Feb 1850 Padstow father lab of Padstow
William Thomas FRANCIS 2 Apr 1852 Padstow father lab of Padstow
Betsy Anne Charlotte FRANCIS 29 Nov 1854 Padstow father lab Padstow
Matilda Louisa FRANCIS 29 Nov 1854 Padstow father lab of Padstow
William Thomas FRANCIS 29 Nov 1854 Padstow father lab of Padstow
Isaac FRANCIS 15 Sep 1858 Padstow father lab of Padstow
Rebecca FRANCIS 15 Sep 1858 Padstow father lab of Padstow
Hendor Albert FRANCIS 19 May 1861 (born 12 Apr 1861) Padstow father lab of Padstow
John FRANCIS the younger & Joan PHILLIPS was married Oct 10 1736 St Enoder.
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi, Kris
Glad you enjoyed the photos.
Thanks for the baptisms. The name "Hendor" was a surprise. Maybe that's why I haven't been able to find him.
It's interesting you didn't seem to find William, who, aged 1, was with the family during the 1851 census, but not in any other census. A Wm Thomas was born in 1852, so the earlier William must have died.
Cheers
Judy
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Hi Judy,
I really am a little suspicious of this. Note: we have a William listed in the 1851 census (definitely says William Son 1) yet we have no Matilda with the family or elsewhere that I can see - she was baptised Feb 1850 so was over a year old. You know she married, so she survived, therefore she should be in the census and she is not.
There is no baptism nor a burial for this alleged first William - makes me wonder if a mistake was made and the enumerator wasn't listening or entered the data wrongly from his notes. I do note his M's and W's are horribly alike so I can actually see how it could happen - if he thought he was looking at the name William he may have just written son without taking a lot of notice..........Cheers Kris :D
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Hi again, Kris,
Yes, it's frustrating not knowing for sure, isn't it?
There are a few queries that have kept me busy with this line. I cannot find Jacob after the 1851 census; William Thomas after he was mentioned in a letter of which I have a copy as being 'a baby in long clothes' when Esau left for Australia in 1853; or Albert after what may be him on a boat in 1881 census Seaford, Sussex, England - Albert FRANCIES on vessel “Elizabeth Williams” 19, O S MS, born Portsmouth, Hampshire, England.
The others I have been able to trace down through a couple of generations.
Thanks
Judy
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I just went through the burials again Judy and the only burial in Padstow 1851 - 1861 is that of Rosina Anne aged 5 weeks
Looking at baptisms again
Rosina Anne FRANCIS bap 12 Jul 1857 father Lab of Padstow buried 19 July 1857 aged 5 weeks of Padstow
Something else really strange I just noticed - the twins list their parents as Isaac and Rebecca. Hendor (or I think that is what it says) lists Isaac and Elizabeth as do the rest of the baptisms :-\
Elizabeth FRANCIS was buried 30 Nov 1862 Padstow aged 48 years of Padstow
Isaac FRANCIS was buried Padstow 11 Jun 1876 aged 71 years of Padstow
Cheers Kris :D
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Hello Kris, Judy and Dennis! :)
I have just checked my emails and read all this new information pertaining to the FRANCIS family from St Enoder. Fantastic!
Tonight I can spend some time revisiting the information I have before me, and, working through this additional data. I will be in contact again as soon as possible.
With a smile :)
Elsie
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Hi all,
I don't suppose that any of your Francis family ventured to live in either Kea or Kenwyn?
I have James Francis (hubby's 5x gt grandfather), possibly baptised 3 Jan1748 Kea- father James. Or he was baptised 5 Nov 1750 - father James.
I do know that James (5x gt grandfather) married Catherine Trevivian 4 Nov 1775 in Kea.
Where either of the James Francis snr came from I don't know.
Just wondering if there's a conection?
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I have a direct ancestor, Mary Francis (1748-1825), buried in St Enoder church yard. She married John Clemow (1748-1797). She was born in St Mawgan in Pydar, it's quite close, and I have others in my tree that came from St Mawgan to St Enoder.
St Enoder today is little more than a church in a setting of fields and countryside, with various scattered farm buildings, and quite unpopulated, though in the 18th century it was a really thriving community and a lot of Cornish families have roots there.
I'll be going there later this month if anyone wants any graves photographed.