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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: jeenie on Thursday 10 April 08 02:43 BST (UK)
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To be practical, if there are people who don't know anything about WWI, then it is reasonable there are some who have never heard of Capability Brown, the English Landscape Gardener. If so, it is probably a waste to read on. ??? 8)
It has been passed down in the extended family that great grandfather, who went under the name of Robert, always said that he was descended from Capability Brown.
I have spent literally 100s of hours trying, from here in SA, to prove this by tracing Capability's descendants and their lives, and a Contender is Rev George Brown, Rector of Pucklechurch (and of Sidney College Cambridge - which he attended in 1810). (tracing Robert's origins, where he came from and how he arrived here by the 1850s is completely without success.)
The Rev George in his adult life claimed to be the son of Lancelot Brown MP, who was Capability's eldest son, and there is (are) corroborating evidence that this is so; and George was possibly or probably raised as George Hall. He died 19 Jul 1819.
(Our robert died Jul Jul 1893 recorded age 72, but it is proven that our grandfather, his son, put his age down all his adult married life by 4 years - and went by only one of his Christian names; and Robert was well educated.)
So can anyone tell, or find out, if George ever married, and regardless, if he ever had any children ?
Another Contender if the Rev Thomas Charles Brown (son of Capability's youngest son Thomas) who, if not Robert's father, possibly was his guardian, or in loco parentis. [names of TC's children included Augusta and Charles, and his brother was Lancelot Robert; our Robert's children included Augusta, Robert, Charles, and possibly Thomas as 1st born.]
And the bon viveur Rev Lancelot Robert Brown is a 3rd Contender. (Not to mention Capability's other grandsons, Lancelot Holland, or George or James Rust.)
If anyone can shed light on any of the above hypotheticals, should love to hear from you; otherwise :
if anyone can help, or make suggestions, or tell me where to go . . . - for a while now I have been all worked, being all gene'd, out.
This is Jeenie's husband here seeking assistance. (South Australia) JOH.
[Thomas Charles was Chaplain to the Duke of Manchester, Curate of Somersham, Isle of Ely and St Peter's, Pimlico Middlesex; and Lancelot Robert was Rector of St Mary and St Peter, Kelsale cum Carlton, Thornton and Saxmundham.
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The above has been Modified today - refer the top 2 (new) sentences ie, the 1st Paragraph. Thank you. :) :)
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Have you accessed the details of Lancelot Brown's Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for information on his descendents?
Will of Lancelot Brown of Buckden, Huntingdonshire 06 May 1802 PROB 11/1374
It can be obtained immediately from The National Archives cost £3.50
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
If you have what information does it give?
Did George Brown die in Pucklechurch or elsewhere?
Regards
Valda
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Have you accessed the details of Lancelot Brown's Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for information on his descendents?
Yes, thank you, Valda. Thank you very much. :)
I do have the Will of Lancelot Brown, which with Codicils runs to 29 Pages, and took me at the time 40 hours to decypher. The Total of Beneficiaries included therein is >2 dozen, principally relatives, but not grand children - but including "my brother George Brown . . ." I also have his wife's Will, the Will of his son "John Brown Esquire an Admiral in his Majesty's Navy", the Beneficiaries of "Mary Brown wife of the late Admiral John" (obtained from http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp), The Wills of Thomas Brown his youngest son, James Rust son-in-Law, and Henry Holland nephew; and also (bachelor) John Fuller brother-in-Law of Lancelot Jnr, which runs to 18 pages of small handwriting and makes no mention of any of the Brown family. I could, briefly, detail these contents but when I did this for my family it took 7 pages of my handwriting. However, it was interesting to note that in a Codicil made the day before he died, Capability reduced the legacy to his eldest son Lancelot (Lance, the MP) by £1,000; and to be brief, in a Will made the day he died, Lance directed all his possessions were to be converted to cash for the benefit of George Hall - but later added a Codicil that certain family heirlooms were to go to named family individuals etc, and the remainder in cash to George.
To answer your other question, Valda, I believer the Rev George Brown died in Bath. :)
[I am also aware of the entry in the Gentleman's Magazine Jan 1830 P89. - which is reputed to record that the Rev George was the son of Lance, but which detail disagrees with other detail I have found. After much searching, and several elapsed months, I found a copy of this Publication here in the Adelaide Library, in the rare books section - and this made no mention of George. However, after even more investigation, it comes about that apparently in a later Edition, there appears a marginalized note On the 9th Inst. Died at bath the Rev. George Brown, late of Pucklechurch, Gloucester, and of Sydney College, Cambridge, son of the late Lancelot Brown Esq., M.P. for Huntingdon.-Ipswich Journal, July 24 1819.]
According to the present Archivist of Sidney Sussex College, Cambrige, "from Venn's Alumni Cantobrigienses George Brown, the son of Lancelot Brown of Hirtloe (sic - Stirtloe ?) House, Hunts., was born there on 27 September 1785 . . . He was admitted as Fellow-commoner at Sidney on 27 September 1810 . . ."
Whew . . . :) :)
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Have you checked Buckden parish registers for the baptism of either a George Hall or a George Brown? The registers are neither on the IGI or the BVRI but I believe there is a transcript at Huntingdon Archives Office.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HUN/Buckden/index.html
Have you had the death duty registers checked at The National Archives for Lancelot's will? TNA research guide
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=107
'The registers in IR 26 between 1796 and 1903 include information not found elsewhere. They show what happened to someone's personal estate (not freehold) after death; and what it was actually worth, excluding debts and expenses. They can give the name of the deceased, with address and last occupation, the date of the will, the place and date of probate, the names, addresses and occupations of the executors, and details of estates, legacies, trustees, legatees, annuities and the duty paid. They can also give the date of death, and information about the people who received bequests (beneficiaries), or who were the next-of-kin, such as exact relationship to the deceased. Tax was not payable on bequests to people within a closely defined family circle, and as a result the family relationship was often noted in the registers. In 1796, tax was not payable on bequests to offspring, spouse, parents and grandparents. In 1805, the exemption was restricted to spouse and parents. From 1815, only bequests to the spouse were exempt from paying tax. Because the registers could be annotated for many years after the first entry, they can include information such as dates of death of spouse; dates of death or marriage of beneficiaries; births of posthumous children and grandchildren; change of address; references to law suits, cross references to other entries, etc..........'
Regards
Valda
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PCC wills and wills proved locally for Somerset and Gloucestershire are indexed online but not administrations. It might be worth checking with Somerset RO or even TNA to check whether George Brown's estate had an adminsitration, if a will can't be found. Administrations are also covered by the Death Duty registers.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you very much for this information, Valda. It is all new to me, what i did not know about, have never heard of before.
It has been so terribly difficult researching from this far away, and so much, not the least the geography I have found out, social administration(s) etc I have now realized I just don't understand. I will need to get my head around what you have provided, and investigate - it sounds very interesting.
And, if you will bear with me, please, to show ignorance, or mental block, what is BVRI; and PCC Wills ?
I have checked the 2 names on LDS Family Search IGI site.
Thanks again.
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PCC wills = Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills
TNA research guide
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=220
The National Archives research guides are very useful
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp
After 1858 all wills were proved by the state.
BVRI = British Isles Vital Record Index - 2nd Ed.
http://genoot.com/downloads/BVRI2/
Regards
Valda
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Thanks again, Valda. Sorry I haven't responded before, re your last.
There is only the 1 computer between two of us. And now its not working properly, [now fixed].
But I shall look into what you have sent.
I guess you won't mind if I have any questions. :)
Ta again.
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Why if he was born as George Brown did he become George Hall?
Sorry if I missed comething, but I can't get my head around that bit.
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The other way around George Hall to George Brown. Lancelot Brown junior died (1805) without issue or at least legitimate issue. Which is why the Death Duty registers would be useful because they give the relationship (if any) of the beneficaries and so would state whether George Hall who was the main beneficary of Lancelot Brown juniors will was in fact his illegitmate son. The Rev George Brown of Pucklechurch who died in 1819, baptism either as Hall or Brown may be found though Buckden parish registers since the date and place of his birth are known - 1785 (from Cambridge University registers where he is first mentioned as Brown in 1810). However George' Browns parentage may have been wrongly ascribed in the Gentleman Magazine and he might be instead a legitimate son of Thomas Brown, the youngest son of Capability Brown, who died in 1830 with two sons and a daughter still living. His eldest living son (at the time of his death in 1830) died in 1868 aged 81, so birthdate circa 1787. Thomas is thought to be the only son to have had children.
Regards
Valda
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Hi, Siamese Girl, and Valda, and everyone. The following is a little of what I have :
To quote from some of my source info (and in an attempt to be brief) :
George Hall “clerk to Mr Brown Merchant Mark Lane London” not yet 21 was the Principal Beneficiary of the 27 Feb 1802 Will of Lancelot Brown Jnr (aka Lance, the eldest son of Lancelot Brown Snr, aka Capability) when he obviously knew he was about to die “being ill in body but of sound mind and recollection”. On this same day that he died he made a Codicil in which he referred to “the said George the person mentioned in my Will”, in which he mentions “my House and Premises at Stirtloe”.
The record in Sidney College of “George Brown, the son of Lancelot Brown of Stirtloe” was presumably supplied by George himself, (and “He went to school for almost 3 years at Mapledurham Oxon and for 2 years at Oakham” enquiries for which by a local contact have been fruitless, eg Oakham records not going back that far – so it is not known what name he was enrolled therein). And Ipswich Journal Jul 24 1819 refers to Rev George Brown died at Bath, son of the late Lancelot Brown Esq. M.P.
I was to post the original entry in the Gentleman’s Magazine Jan 1830, but worried about ©. It must be correct that Rev Thomas, the 3rd youngest son of Capability to survive infancy, was the only son to have legitimate children. Eg, he inherited Capablity’s large estate “after his 2 elder brothers had enjoyed it in succession, and had died without issue viz. Lancelot, a Barrister, and sometime M.P. . . .” [This estate then passed to Thomas’ elder son Lancelot Robert, and then to his eldest daughter .] And Thomas’ sons are recorded herein as Lancelot and Thomas-Charles.
Throughout his 29 Pages of Will and Codicils, Capablility makes repeated mention to named Beneficiary relatives “and behoof of the sons of his [or her] body lawfully to be begotten and the Heirs Male of their Bodies lawfully Issuing”. CB increased legacies to all, but reduced Lance’ by £1,000; Lance married 17 Nov 1788 (in Switzerland) Frances the sister of John (Madjack) Fuller, and they weren’t mentioned in his Will; Lance named another brother-in-Law James Rust as Joint Executor, but he reneged; and also intriguing James in his 1822 Will made absolutely no mention of daughter Mary, but her cousin (Bachelor) Henry Holland (and also both cousins of Thomas Charles and Lancelot Robert) according to his 1838 Will had been paying her an Annuity “for many years past” which was to continue. She was still unmarried.
Thomas Charles was married by his brother to Frances Page, 17 Sep no later than 1825, and in 1841 were living with children Frances, Augusta Marcia and Lancelot Charles in Somersham, in 1851 with the younger 2 in St Georges Westminster, and in 1861 he was living with his brother Lancelot Robert and etc in Kelsale.
Lancelot Robert is recorded as only ever had daughters. Mary Rust (above) had a brother George. And Mary Holland, aunt of Henry above, married a William Brown – of Mark Lane top above, perhaps ?? (So where does Robert fit in, if at all ?)
So you can see I have tried . . .
(Also my local Gloucester contact above [a private person] has received confirmation that George was not baptised in Buckden Parish Church.)
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As a stab in the dark I wonder if there might be something in the will of Bridget Holland, Widow of Richmond , Surrey 03 October 1823 PROB 11/1676 who I guess was Lancelot Brown's daughter Bridget and who married the architect Henry Holland (although I believe they had children).
Death Duties usually do give relationships, although having said that I can think of one I've seen that doesn't.
Obviously it would be good to know exactly who Mr Brown of Mark's Lane was and if he was related. Assuming George Hall was Lancelot II's illegitimate son he presumably was responsible to articling him to this unknown Mr Brown.
It's all very complicated.
Carole
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Looking for possible Browns there's a will for a Thomas Brown, Sack Manufacturer of No 64 Mark Lane, City of London 23 June 1813 PROB 11/1545
Carole
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There was a well established and accepted procedure where the illegitimate son of a Gentleman (or Gentlelady, for that matter) was placed with another family, with all expense paid for, upbringing and education (eg, Tom Jones; Breaker Morant).
I can not help wondering if (say) great grandpa Robert (recorded as born c1821, and James Rust making his Will in 1822 disinheriting his daughter Mary), if Robert was a son of Mary Rust and Henry Holland, and was brought up with the name of Brown, or changed it to Brown later – after all, both Mary and (this) Henry were grand children of Capability Brown. [And changing surname was common in those days – refer the Sparrow-Bence case of Lancelot Robert’s father-in-Law. Also Capability made mention of the practice in his Will.]
And following the line of hypotheticals, Frances Fuller was the daughter of a very rich, influential family (amongst many other things her brother John was a MP), and her Wedding would have been the social event of the year. Yet she went away (was she sent ?) on an extended holiday to Lausanne Switzerland where she married Lancelot Brown, who was desperately in need of such connections. (And I have found no mention of a Marriage Settlement. Incidentally, Lausanne is where the regicide Cornelius Holland, ancestor of our Holland family, went, lived and died, to escape the long arm of Charles II.)
[In 1841 the Rev Thomas Brown was living with Frances Page (his mother-in-Law), and 3 x Frances Brown – one was his wife, another his daughter, but of the 3rd, age 47 (a precise age was unusual in the English 1841 census), I have no such person on my Files. But the age matches exactly the 26 Jun 1793 baptism (in Huntingdon) of Frances Rust, a sister of Mary.]
It can all be confusing, (with the constantly recycled 1st names), and Brown not easy to research, or lookup, particularly when with Rust, nor is Holland. But over time . . .
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Thank you very much for the reference to Thomas Brown of Mark Lane, Carole ! I shall follow it up !
And thank you ever so much for the information on Bridget ! Lancelot Brown Snr’s daughter Bridget married Henry Holland 11 Feb 1773 and they had at least 7 children, including (yet another) Henry born 1775, the one who provided for Mary Rust.
In Henry Holland: His Life and Architecture by Dorothy Stroud, Henry Holland died 17 Jun 1806 and his wife Bridget outlived her husband by 17 years (sic), died 14 Sep 1828 (sic) and they were buried in the family vault in the churchyard of All Saints Fulham. Confusing. And this same date appears in another book. I have her DoB as 1874. Thank you ever so much for clearing that up, and for the reference to her Will.
** Amendment - I have her Dob as 1746 ! ! (not 1874)
Again, very seriously it is very good of you to do this. I had previously run to a stop and given up, until I thought of this Forum.
[James Rust married Bridget’s sister, so Bridget was also the Aunt of Mary Rust. And possibly there was a rift in the Rust family, and Henry, a bachelor, with money to spare, was just helping out. But maybe Bridget’s Will will help me out.]
* Apart from other matters, hopefully all this posting will be interesting to Capability Brown devotees. *
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Well I assume that must be THE Bridget Holland - it's a very long shot but occasionally people mention things in their wills, which, as they wouldn't be made known until after their deaths they would have otherwise kept quiet about.
Carole
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Bridget Holland’s DoD (Date of Death) of 1828 in at least 2 Books must be a typing transposition error, and 1823 is definitely correct ! Also, I have Bridget’s DoB as 1746 – not 1874 as entered – this is an extreme such error !
I now have the Will of Thomas Brown of Mark Lane, and the “Will” of Bridget Holland, which initially was difficult to understand (cf. decipher), being apparently an Attestation of the wishes and intentions of her mother’s handwritten testament (with 2 Codicils) by Bridget’s daughter Mary Frances Crauford (Widow of Major General Sir Robert Crauford, the famous Cavalry Officer, under Wellington, KIA in Spain 1812).
Without going into greater detail, at 1st quick perusal neither seems to have any additional relatives. But still have to be more fully deciphered and digested, and it was well worth it, obtaining them.
Thank you again for this information, Carole.
[NB – Peggy (Margaret) Rust nee Brown, Capability’s youngest daughter died some time between her father’s last Codicil of 1802 and her husband’s Will of 1822, so presumably without a Will. Bridget’s is the only one obtained which refers to a grand child (but just one), even though one son (another) Lancelot provided her with 16.]
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Talking to others is a good way to clarify one’s thoughts eg, but not exhaustively :
- The Will of James Rust disinherited daughter Mary in which she was not mentioned
- Capability Brown’s daughter Bridget married Henry Holland
- Henry Holland, Bridget’s son, never married
- Capability Brown’s daughter Peggy married James Rust
- Mary Rust, Peggy’s daughter, never married
- Henry in his Will provided an Annuity for Mary, which he had been paying “these many years past”
- Great grandpa Robert was supposedly born c1821
- James Rust’s Will was made 1822
Also
- George Hall, presumed the illegitimate son of Lancelot Brown Jnr changed his name to Brown on reaching his majority
- To my knowledge, (well educated but very impecunious) great grandpa Robert never spoke of his parents etc, except he was descended from Capability Brown
I have difficulty finding my way and mind around the National Repositories, and so far still can not find :
- Death Duty Register Entry for George Brown died 1819
- Death Duty Register Entry for Lancelot died 1802 – having died between 1796 and 1805, could this be proof that George was his son ?
In 1796, tax was not payable on bequests to offspring, spouse, parents and grandparents. In 1805, the exemption was restricted to spouse and parents.
- Anything for Thomas Charles Brown – I would really like his Will, or particularly Estate Distribution, but do not even have his date of death, except he was still alive in 1861 (census)
- I can’t imagine where any record may exist or be found of any possible union of Henry and Mary, if such ever occurred
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I'm not entirely sure if the death duty register would help anyway - if George was Lancelot II's illegitimate son he wouldn't have had any legal rights concerning his father's estate, so if his name was mentioned in it I don't think the relationship would have been recorded.
I think it's going to be nearly impossible to prove the link :(
Carole
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To clarify (I hope) all the points/questions raised in jeenie’s and Carole’s last posts
1. The online Death Duty index on TNA website only covers the period 1796-1811 so George Brown if he left a will or administration 1819 or afterwards (did he?) will not be included – no will or administration = no Death Duty record
2. From TNA guide 'How to interpret Death Duty Registers'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=245
'What do the Headings and Abbreviations Mean?
6. Abbreviations Used in Column 6 of the 2nd Headings: Consanguinity
Str or Stra or Strag stranger in blood
Stra BL stranger, brother-in-law
Stra DL stranger, daughter-in-law
Stra NC stranger, natural child (i.e. illegitimate)
Stra ND stranger, natural daughter (i.e. illegitimate)
Stra NS stranger, natural son (i.e. illegitimate)
Stra NC (of a daughter) stranger, illegitimate child of a daughter
Stra NC (of a son) stranger, illegitimate child of a son
Stra (sent) stranger, servant of deceased
Stra SL stranger, sister-in-law or stranger, son-in-law
Stra or 'son' stranger, natural son (i.e. illegitimate)
Stra or 'daughter' stranger, natural daughter (i.e. illegitimate)'
Illegal children had no legal rights to their father's estates unless of course they were beneficiaries of their wills. I have several examples of Death Duty records where the illegitimate relationship of the beneficiary was recorded (but it doesn't necessarily mean all such relationships would be admitted by beneficiaries if they were not already publically acknowledged and stated in the will).
3. The church proved wills up to 1858. The National Archives holds only the Prerogative Court of Canterbury church wills and administrations (though only the wills are indexed online so a vast number of administrations are not). All other church court wills are mostly held in county record offices since they were proved in local/lower church courts. The PCC was the highest church court and covered the whole country - England and Wales as well as some people outside of the country at their time of death e.g. those on board ships. Hence the PCC wills and administrations were deposited with the only national repository TNA.
TNA research guides
Wills Before 1858: Where to Start
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=220
Wills and Probate Records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=168
Wills and Death Duty Records After 1858
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=219
The online Death Duty Index on TNA website 1796-1811 only includes
'This collection focuses on the death duty payable on wills and letters of administration proved in the "country courts".'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/about.asp
and therefore excludes any PCC wills or administrations. Lancelot Brown's will proved 1802 was a PCC will (as all are in the TNA online index) so will not show in TNA Death Duty index online. That does not mean there is no Death record for this will.
4. There is a TNA index (not online) for Death Duty Registers in series IR27 (on microfilm). The registers themselves are in IR26. The registers have been microfilmed up to 1858. The real registers are large black (dusty books) and because of space issues at TNA if you need to see the actual registers themselves (which would be the case for post 1858 registers) you have to give TNA 3 days notice before your visit. The registers are stored at TNA repository at Hayes and have to be sent for to allow you to view them at TNA at Kew.
Thomas Charles Brown was still alive on the 1861 census, aged 69, born Conington Cambridgeshire, married, but staying with his brother in Kesale Suffolk. Thomas was the Curate of St Peter's Pimlico (civil registration district St George Hanover Square). Since he cannot be found on the 1871 census then the most likely reason is that he died between the two censuses. There are only two possible death registrations for Thomas Charles Browns in this time period. The first is only a possible because it is pre the date the age was placed on the index – so the age of this Thomas Charles Brown is unknown and could for instance be a child.
Deaths Mar 1865
BROWN Thomas Charles Greenwich 1d 543
Deaths Sep 1868
BROWN Thomas Charles 76 Chelsea 1a 183
The death registration in Chelsea is by far the more likely of the two. It is the correct age for the Thomas Charles Brown you are interested in and the death was registered in an adjacent civil registration district to St George Hanover Square. Greenwich is south of the river Thames.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/StGeorgeHanoverSquare/PimlicoHistory.html
5. From 1858 wills were proved by the state. Large libraries (and at least SAG in Australia) have microfiches of this will index going up to about 1945.TNA also holds the index on microfiche. Copies of wills and administrations proved from 1858 onwards can be ordered from the Probate Service from whom you can request a search but of course it makes it more expensive.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/civil/probate/index.htm
I hope this answers all the points raised
Regards
Valda
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The Death Duty register only repeats what is in the will or admins - so if a relative isn't named in a will or took out admins on the estate they won't be in the register.
I've only looked at one from 1808. As most of the wills for Somerset were lost in WW2 it was all I had to go on - of the four people named no relationship was given for two and the other two were called nephews when in fact they were great nephews, but it did give me a better idea of how much the estate was worth which is often impossible to work out from a will alone.
Carole
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Thank you again Carole. And thank you also Valda for your most detailed and comprehensive response.
I am in the process of following up further.
[sometimes the Brain does not always function as it used to, and can take longer to understand and absorb.]
And I would never have picked up on the association of Pimlico to St George Hanover Square, such geographical associations in England do not come naturally.
Please be assured that I really do most appreciate the effort you have both put in to provide the information, help and assistance.
And I thank you also on behalf of our extended family (here), some of whom had asked that I undertake research on their behalf, their being absolutely convinced of the veracity of what has been passed down from great grandpa through different Lines.
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The detail varies from Death Duty record to Death Duty record and as in all records you always question reliability. However the general rule is the bigger the estate the more likely it will be that the Death Duty record will more detailed, because with more money more tax is being paid. As only beneficaries are mentioned that's why checking the 1802 could be useful since George Hall was the major beneficiary. If there was no relationship then no relationship will be given in the Death Duty register. The other useful details that a Death Duty record might contain
'Because the registers could be annotated for many years after the first entry, they can include information such as dates of death of spouse; dates of death or marriage of beneficiaries;'
So you would be looking for such details about George Hall in the Death Duty register e.g. did he die in 1819 since it is known that is when George Brown died. If he did that would be quite 'coincidental'. Are both surnames given for the man for instance or does he remain George Hall?
Regards
Valda
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Just an update -
I have found the microfiche Index of Eng/Wls Wills from 1858 in the local genealogy Society and have ordered the Wills etc for Thomas Charles d 2 Jul 1868 and his wife Fanny (Frances) d 22 Apr 1870, and Lancelot Robert d 11 Feb 1868 and his wife Anna Maria d 17 Mar 1872 and their (spinster) daughter Anna Maria d 1 Oct 1872. Also writing to The Probate Registry for (any) details of the Administration and Disposition (and etc) of the Estates for Lancelot Jnr MP, and the Rev George.
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The probate registry only have access to wills and adminsitrations proved by the state that is only from 1858 onwards.
Their printed calendar of wills begins in 1858 as you already know and therefore they will know nothing of wills, adminsitrations or Death Duties payable on earlier wills. In the case of Death Duties they won't know anything about those records post 1858 either. What they hold is purely copies of wills and adminstrations.
Earlier wills (and administrations) were proved by church courts and have been deposited in record offices. In the case of Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills and administrations they are deposited with The National Archives, but administrations are not covered by their online index. I don't really know what you mean by 'Disposition (and etc) of the Estates'. If you mean the tax paid on the estate which gives you an indication of the real value of the estate and what actually happened after the death to beneficaries then that is the Death Duty Register. As it was a state (inheritance tax) it is a government record and government records are deposited at The National Archives.
The Probate Service will not be able to help you with anything to do with Lancelot Brown juniors will (PCC) or the Death Duty register (all at TNA) or the possibility of a will or administration for the Rev George Brown circa 1819. He definitely did not leave a PCC will or that would be in the online TNA index. That leaves you with a possibility there was a PCC adminsitration. If there was a will or administration proved locally in doesn't appear in the Gloucestershire or Somerset Record Offices online indexes.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx
http://www.somerset.gov.uk/archives/
(not sure whether these indexes also cover adminstrations as well)
Bath is in Somerset and your issue with Somerset wills is that a large proportion of them were lost in a bombing raid during the Second World War - see 'See our notes about Somerset wills' on the Somerset Record Office website. The Death Duty (Estate Duty) Registers of course do survive for these wills and takes you back to TNA.
Since both Thomas Charles Brown and Lancelot Robert Brown died a long time after the Rev George Brown (50 years) and they had families of their own, they or their children's wills are unlikely to shed much light on George Brown. You really need to access the Death Duty Register at TNA for Lancelot Brown's PCC will and you can only do that by either visiting TNA or engaging a researcher, or request a look up on Rootschat, though many people visiting TNA have little experience or knowledge of the Death Duty registers which is a shame as they can be very helpful.
In the end this particular pathway, to try and find out further information about the major beneficiary of Lancelot Brown's will, can only be resolved by the records held at The National Archives.
Regards
Valda
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I don’t really know what I meant myself, except a faulty understanding of the Probate Records and Family History site.
The following is from http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1183.htm :
“Probate grants for each year are listed alphabetically by surname. The crucial parts of the Probate record are the Grant type, which is usually 'Probate', 'Administration' or 'Administration with Will', the issuing Registry, and the grant issue date. They are normally written in sequence towards the end of the index entry, but the older books give the grant date first and highlight the issuing Registry in the text of the entry. The grant type can be inferred from the text, but note that the indexes prior to 1871 listed the 'Administration' grants in a separate part of the book from the 'Probate' and 'Administration with Will' grants, so be sure to search in both places for years prior to this . . .
"If the grant type is 'Administration', this tells you that the person in question did not leave a valid Will. However, the Probate Registries can still supply a copy of the grant, which is the document naming the person appointed in law as the administrator of the estate. This can provide genealogical information, especially in older grants where the relationship of the applicant to the deceased was stated. . . . Don't expect to find inventories on file for records after 1858, although they sometimes form part of the Probate record prior to this.
“In many cases you can save a lot of time and money by making the search yourself, but there is a postal service by which a search is made on your behalf for a period of four years. There is a fee of £5 for this, but this includes copies of the Will and/or grant if a record is found. It also gives you the benefit of the experience of Probate staff, for instance in knowing when to search and judging under which name the record is likely to be listed.”
So because of my faulty interpretation of the above, I have unfortunately already written to The Probate Registry, with a £10-00 sterling cheque enclosed.
The local Genealogy Society provides a Service where they will obtain “ENG/WLS Wills and Admons” on your behalf, for a fee. I thought it just possible, although very remote, that one of the 5 ie, Thomas Charles etc, just might have mentioned a Robert ie, my great grand father, in one of their Wills. But I have spent so much time and so much money on this investigation that I thought it would be a pity not to tie up this end completely. And for this purpose, probably just the Wills should suffice.
(it is close on 3:00 am, so I shall have to leave this, pro tem)
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The grant of probate looks a bit like the information you get on an adminstration, it is the details of who is being granted the probate i.e. me if I am the one going through all the paperwork to have a will proved. The purpose of the grant is
'The grant is proof that the person or persons named in it are entitled to collect in and distribute the monies or other assets of the deceased and may be produced to those organisations (banks, building societies, etc.) holding such assets.'
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1216.htm
When you order a will you automatically get the grant of probate.
'If you make your own search and order copies by post: £5 for each estate: this fee includes a copy of the Will [if any], regardless of the number of pages, and a copy of the grant.'
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm#details
From the same page but now out of date because The Family Records Centre has gone so the outreach bit in central London they held for TNA is now only with TNA in west London (Kew) so for 'Family Records Centre' read TNA.
'What about Probate Records before 1858?
The Probate Service does not hold any records or documents prior to 1858. If you require information about these, you are recommended to contact:
The Family Records Centre,
1 Myddelton Street,
London EC1R 1UW
Tel. 020 8392 5300
or your local authority archivist for guidance.'
Again I would encourage you to read the TNA research guides e.g. 'Wills before 1858'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=220
Which begins and ends with this information
'Before 1858, over 250 church courts dealt with wills and administrations.
The records of most of these courts are kept in local record offices..........The records of only one court can be seen at The National Archives. This is the Prerogative Court of Canterbury'
All the research guides can be found on the TNA website
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp
so you can scroll down and choose which to read. The ones concerned with wills and administrations are
Wills and Death Duty Records After 1858
Wills and Probate Records
Wills Before 1858: Where to Start
and
Death Duty Records, From 1796
Death Duty Registers, How to Interpret
I understand it is always worth accessing wills. I hold copies of many many wills myself - into the hundreds, since I research a one name study, but very few mention anyone in their wills who is dead. From memory I can only think of one where the single woman involved starts with the phrase 'I am the daughter of ...'. To be frank in legal terms it is irrelevant who she is the daughter of (since she isn't leaving money to herself or her dead father) just that it is clearly stated who she is leaving her money etc to and who those people are. It isn't even strictly speaking necessary to say what relationship they are to her though it helps in clarifying who they are. Therefore by the nature of the legal document we are dealing with its purpose is not to establish genealogical connections. That occurs only when a will is contested by relatives. See the litigation section of TNA research guide 'Wills and probate records' some of which have been indexed in TNA online catalogue - which I searched first of all for Lancelot Brown just in case and found nothing.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
Regards
Valda
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Thank you again, Valda, for your so kind and detailed responses.
I think I have a fair grasp of it now.
Your patience, and effort in all this are very much appreciated.
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http://www.angelfire.com/planet/madjack/pafg14.htm#223
This provides a tree which may help.
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It is the 'Fuller' tree only showing some of what is already known. Frances Fuller married Lancelot Brown junior so it concentrates on the Fuller family and their connections and doesn't delve very far into the Brown family and certainly not as far as a potential 'shadowy' illegitimate son. For that you are back to exploring records at TNA (Death Duty) and/or the parish registers for Stirtloe since there is an exact date of birth known for George Brown.
According to the present Archivist of Sidney Sussex College, Cambrige, "from Venn's Alumni Cantobrigienses George Brown, the son of Lancelot Brown of Hirtloe (sic - Stirtloe ?) House, Hunts., was born there on 27 September 1785 . . . He was admitted as Fellow-commoner at Sidney on 27 September 1810 . . ."
Parish registers for Buckden (which is the parish Stirtloe was in) are not on the IGI or BVRI and only they would show the maternal link. Of course there may not be a baptism to find in these parish registers but you don't know unless you check - searching for Hall or Brown.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HUN/Buckden/index.html
Parish registers for Huntingdon are now held in Cambridgeshire Record Office
http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/visiting/crohuntingdon.htm
Regards
Valda
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I am a newbie intersted in Capability Brown as we think my family are direct descendants. My mother, who refused to talk about family matters, has just died and among her hidden things we found a partial tree written by my grandmother, Mary (Madge) Brown of Winterton, LIncs. She had the following:
Lancelot Brown1715-1783
Thomas Brown died 1820 (I have him born 1861 from a book on Capability Brown.) She had him down as Rector of Fenstanton, Nothamptonshire for 40 years. His son, Thomas Brown, 1857-1925 married Annie Maria Barley in 1879 (registered at Glanford Brigg) and had 13 children (two deceased in early childhood): my grandmother was the ninth live birth: Mary Elizabeth born 11/6/1892.
Does this fit with anyone else's records? We would love to hear.
Val (Todd)
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Hi Val welcome to Rootschat
I'm afraid your information and dates don't match to Capability Brown's family. The tree itself doesn't really make a lot of sense dates wise at the crucial part where it tries to make a link with Capability's son Thomas and Mary Elizabeth's father Thomas.
'Thomas Brown died 1820 (I have him born 1861 from a book on Capability Brown.) She had him down as Rector of Fenstanton, Nothamptonshire for 40 years. His son, Thomas Brown, 1857-1925'
I think you mean Thomas was born 1761 and died 1820 (I think actually 1829) in which case it would be impossible for him to have fathered a son born in 1857 called Thomas. The dates for the Rev Thomas Brown 1761-1829 of Fenstanton, the son of 'Capability' Brown are correct as is a birth year of circa 1857 for Mary Elizabeth's father Thomas.
This looks more like Mary Elizabeth's line of Browns in Lincolnshire.
Winterton is in Glanford Brigg registration district.
1901 census RG13 3103 folio 8
Low Street Winterton Lincolnshire
Thomas Brown 43 Head Married Florist Swaby Lincolnshire
Annie M Brown 45 Wife Married Whitton Lincolnshire
William Brown 20 Son
Charles Brown 18 Son
Mabel Brown 14 Daughter
Henry Brown 12 Son
Christopher A Brown 10 Son
Mary E Brown 9 Daughter
Archbald Brown 8 Son
Ernest Brown 4 Son
Violet Brown 2 Daughter
children all born Winterton
The family was in Winterton in 1891. Thomas was a gardener aged 33 born Swaby. His wife's name was given as Annie Maria. Eldest son was Frederick aged 11 born Winterton.
1881 census RG11 3286 folio 14
Low Street Winterton Lincolnshire
Tom Brown 23 Head Married Gardener and seedsman Swaby Lincolnshire
Annie Maria Brown 25 Wife Married Whitton Lincolnshire
Frederick Brown 1 Son Winterton Lincolnshire
So after his marriage Thomas was very consistent with occupation, age and place of birth.
1861 census RG9 2379 folio 11
Swaby Lincolnshire
Fredrick Brown 28 Head Married Gardener Burwell Lincolnshire
Eliza Brown 30 Wife Married Swaby Lincolnshire
Mary Ann Brown 7 Daughter Swaby Lincolnshire
Tom Brown 3 Son Swaby Lincolnshire
1871 census RG10 3322 folio 6
4 Haines Yard Spalding Lincolnshire
Frederick Brown 35 Head Married Gardener Burwell Lincolnshire
Alice Brown 28 Wife Married Weston Hills Lincolnshire
Thomas Brown 13 Son White Pit Lincolnshire
1851 census HO107 2110 folio 426
South Ormsby, Lincolnshire
Frederick Brown 18 Burwell, Lincolnshire, Servant Labourer
A strong possibility on the 1841 census is this entry, but either of Frederick's two marriages would confirm his father's name and occupation, as would Thomas' marriage for his father's details.
1841 census HO107 641/14 enumeration schedule 5
South Ormsby
Joseph Brown 40 Gardener
Mary Brown 40
George Brown 17 Gardener
John Brown 12
Frederick Brown 10
William Brown 5
Betsey Brown 7
Fanny Brown 2
all born Lincolnshire - adult ages (those over 15) are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
1851 census HO107 2111 folio 484
Kidgate Louth Lincolnshire
Joseph Brown 52 Head Married Gardener North Willingham Lincolnshire
Mary Brown 49 Wife Married Market Raisen Lincolnshire
George Brown 26 Son Tead Dealer North Willingham Lincolnshire
Charles Brown 9 Son South Ormsby Lincolnshire
Joseph Brown 4 Son Swaby Lincolnshire
plus three lodgers
JOSEPH BROWN
Christening: 24 JUN 1798 North Willingham, Lincoln
Father: JOHN BROWN
Mother: ELIZ.
JOSEPH BROWN
MARY LOWNDS
Marriage: 28 AUG 1821 North Willingham, Lincoln
siblings
JOHN BROWN
Christening: 19 MAR 1797 North Willingham, Lincoln
Father: JOHN BROWN
Mother: ELIZ.
WM. BROWN
Christening: 06 DEC 1801 North Willingham, Lincoln
Father: JOHN BROWN
Mother: ELIZ.
ELIZ. BROWN
Christening: 30 SEP 1804 North Willingham, Lincoln
Father: JOHN BROWN
Mother: ELIZ
So the probable (you could prove the census entries through obtaining the necessary marriage certificates) 2 x great grandfather of Mary Elizabeth Brown was John Brown who was having children with his wife Elizabeth in North Willingham Lincolnshire in the late C18th early C19th, and the family background on censuses was one of relatively ordinary villagers.
Information from censuses on Thomas Charles Brown the son of the Rev Thomas Brown of Fenstanton and brother of Lancelot Robert Brown have already been stated in earlier messages
'Thomas Charles Brown was still alive on the 1861 census, aged 69, born Conington Cambridgeshire'
and
Thomas Charles was married by his brother to Frances Page, 17 Sep no later than 1825, and in 1841 were living with children Frances, Augusta Marcia and Lancelot Charles in Somersham, in 1851 with the younger 2 in St Georges Westminster, and in 1861 he was living with his brother Lancelot Robert and etc in Kelsale.
and
'have ordered the Wills etc for Thomas Charles d 2 Jul 1868 and his wife Fanny (Frances) d 22 Apr 1870,'
'Thomas Charles Brown died 1868 in Chelsea registration district.'
Regards
Valda
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oops! meant to say "grandson" not "son" Thomas Brown, 1857-1925 - i was so excited to find this and it was the early hours! Val
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Val
I'm sorry to disappoint but it really doesn't matter whether you mean son or grandson, you don't seem to have a credible match to Capability Brown's wealthy and well connected family.
The Rev Thomas Brown 1761-1829, the son of 'Capability' Brown left a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will, indicating that he was a man of substance.
Will of Reverend Thomas Brown, Clerk of Conington , Cambridgeshire 14 August 1830 PROB 11/1774
You could order this will from The National Archives if you want, but others have done the same so the Rev Thomas Brown's family are well researched.
To become at this time a 'Reverend' Thomas Brown would have to have attended the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge in a time when education would have to be paid for by the families themselves. Only the rich could afford for their sons to attend Oxford or Cambridge University let alone afford the private school education necessary beforehand. These were the only two universities in England at the time.
The Rev Thomas Brown had three children.
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/madjack/pafg14.htm#223
'Rev Thomas Brown was born in 1761 in Hammersmith, London. He died on 20 Dec 1829 in Conington, Cambridgeshire. He was buried in Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire. He married Susan Dickins in 1761.
Susan Dickins died on 18 Jan 1833 in Saxmundham, Suffolk. She married Rev Thomas Brown in 1761.
They had the following children:
M i Thomas Charles Brown Clergyman. Curate of Somersham, Isle of Ely.
F ii Susan Brown.
M iii Rev Lancelot Robert Brown died on 11 Feb 1868. '
On the 1851 census Thomas Charles Brown was aged 59 (birth circa 1792). His wife was Frances was aged 48 (she died in 1870). Their youngest child on that census was 21 - both were born Huntingdon. With the family on the census in St George Hanover Square in London was a butler, a ladies maid, a cook and a housemaid. On the 1861 census Thomas Charles was Curate of St Peter's Pimlico in Westminster.
Thomas Charles was the younger of the two sons of the Rev Thomas Brown who had married young. Thomas Charles' older brother Lancelot Robert Brown was 65 (birth circa 1786) on the 1851 census living in Kelsale Huntingdon and also born Huntingdon. His daughter Anna Maria was 40 (her mother also Anna Maria was 74 in 1861, but not with the family in 1851). In 1851 the household also consisted of a butler, a coachman, a footman, a housekeeper, a lady's maid, a cook and housemaid. The family was still in Kelsale Suffolk on the 1861 census.
As you might expect of the grandsons of Capability Brown both these men were very wealthy and again like their father must have attended either Oxford or Cambridge Universities to hold their positions in the Church of England having studied theology.
On the 1901 census Mary E Brown your grandmother and her family were in Winterton Lincolnshire. Her father Thomas now a florist, but on previous censuses a gardener was born in Swaby Lincolnshire circa 1857. From censuses his father appears to be Frederick Brown born Burwell Lincolnshire circa 1833. This Brown line would seem to go back in Lincolnshire until at least the late part of the C18th and be firmly placed amongst the rural working classes.
Regards
Valda
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Without wanting to sound daft I wonder if this is one of those handed down family stories - with the link being gardening? Family name Brown + gardening = Capability Brown.
Our family swore they were descended from the Child family who were bankers ....... nope ..... they aren't - although you can't convince some people!
Carole
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As mentioned above, after much searching I eventually found a copy of the Gentleman’s Magazine of Jan 1830, Page 89 of which contains the Obituary [ie, memoir (sic)] for the Rev Thomas Brown :
Rev Thomas Brown
Dec 20 At Conington Campbridgeshire, aged 68, the Rev. Thomas Brown, Rector of that parish for more than 40 years; and a Magistrate for the counties of Cambridge and Hunts. Mr. Brown was third youngest son of Lancelot Brown, esq. Head Gardener to his late Majesty at Hampton Court, who was celebrated in the last century (under the better appelation of Capability Brown) for his skill and taste in laying out parks and ornamental gardening, by which he acquired a large estate of his own, which passed to the subject of the memoir, after his two elder brothers had enjoyed it in succession, and had died without issue viz. Lancelot, a Barrister, and sometime M.P. for Huntingdon; and John, an Admiral of the Royal Navy. The late Mr. Brown was of St. John's-college, Cambridge, B.A. 1784, M.A. 1787; and was presented to the Rectory of Conington in 1789 by the Hon. Dr. Yorke, then Bishop of Ely. He married early in life, Susan, daughter of Mr. Dickins, Rector of Hemingford Gray, near Huntingdon; and by her, who survives him, he has left two sons, Lancelot, Rector of Kelsale in Suffolk, who succeeds to his estate; and Thomas-Charles, Curate of Somersham, in the Isle of Ely, a living attached to the Regius Professorship of Divinity in the University of Cambridge; and one daughter Susan.
The remains of Mr. Brown were deposited by those of his father, under the monument in the chancel of Fenstanton. His character was that of an excellent parish priest; and he will be sincerely lamented by the poor of his neighbourhood, to whose wants, both spiritual and temporal, he never failed to administer. In his family he was warmly beloved; and the open-hearted sincerity of his friendship can be attested by the writer of this; who experienced it for half a century.
"Chave, vale! at tecum, sim modo dignus, ero."
As luck would have it, shortly after finding the above, I made contact with a person in England who owns a copy of “The Register’s of Thorington”, Pp 11 and 12 of which apparently contains this above entry verbatim, except that the following was added in italics after “John, an Admiral of the Royal Navy” –
[On the 9th Inst. Died at bath the Rev. George Brown, late of Pucklechurch, Gloucester, and of Sydney College, Cambridge, son of the late Lancelot Brown Esq., M.P. for Huntingdon.-Ipswich Journal, July 24 1819.]
[ I can’t imagine any © concerns after referring to Article 7 (1) of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html - Similar provisions also most definitely apply in Australia, and USA ]
Although of no direct interest to him, it was the above contact who so kindly made enquiries for me re George’ education, and subsequently re his Baptism in Buckden – for which he has received confirmation there is no record, under Brown or Hall. Also obtaining the actual Ipswich Journal entry.
I have Capability’s youngest son the Rev Thomas born 1761, married Susannah Dickens 22 Jan 1785, died 20 Dec 1829, daughter Susannah, elder son Lancelot Robert b 1786, m Anna Maria Sparrow (Bence) 17 Mar 1809, d 11 Feb 1868 (with 4 daughters, 2 died in infancy, but all well documented), and younger son Thomas Charles b c1791 m Frances (Fanny) Page 17 Sep 1825 (probably), d 2 Jul 1868 (had 3 children mentioned earlier). [Anna Maria's father was Bence Bence, ne Sparrow, one who changed his surname. Susannah, unmarried of Stamford Lincolnshire was left £1,000 by the 1841 Will of her cousin Amelia, spinster daughter of Capability's sister-in-Law Elizabeth and her husband Dr Benjamin Cooke.]
I have been researching Capability’s family for some years, and have most of his descendants down to at least the mid early 1800s, and then some, but it is of no personal benefit to proceed further. It is impossible to reference everything here, but a couple which may be of interest include :
http://books.google.com.au/books?pg=PA521&dq=%22lancelot+robert+brown%22&id=UA4EAAAAQAAJ&output=html
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SLYRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA522&dq=%22rev+george+brown%22+bath
JOH.
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Goodmorning
If you have put together a tree have you any info on the Rust side of the family
ie who was Mary Rust and what relation to Lancelot was she
Lancelot's daughter Margaret Brown marries James Rust and they move to Alconbury where they build the House and their son George inherits it and then his son but it was sold on his death in 1922 the Americans then use it in the war as it is by the Alconbury American airfield.
Do you know more about the rift in the family that My Great Uncle talked of.
I would love to here from you or anybody else that has info on the subject
regards mavis
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Good morning, Mavis. We have been away for an extended Queen's Birthday holiday long weekend, which we are told is not celebrated in all Countries. (It is historical that we celebrate the Birthday of the current sovereign at this time of year.)
James Rust married Margaret Brown (ie, Peggy, daughter of Lancelot/Capability) 29 Sep 1788. They appear to have had at least the following children: Mary (presumably the eldest) still alive 1852, Frances baptised 26 Jun 1793 sa 1827, George ba 21 Oct 1795 sa 1866, and James and Elizabeth both ba 29 Oct 1799, this James sa 1827.
In his Will James the father named his son George as his Executor, and made provision of £10,000 for his daughter Frances Rust, and £20,000 to his son James.
My great grandfather Robert was born in the early 18 twenties, or late 18 teens, give or take, so generally I have not researched the extended family very much past the 1820s. I regret I have no knowledge of a rift in the Rust family except by extrapolation ie, putting 2 and 2 together, but you seem to have confirmed the suspicion, if this is the rift that Your Great Uncle talked of.
I also would be very interested to hear from anyone who has any info on the subject.
JOH.
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An Update:-
In her Will, Lancelot Robert Brown's widow Anna Maria Brown named their 3 daughters as her beneficiaries. Her Effects under £10,000.
Lancelot Robert's 1863 Will was similar, including his Wife, plus £1,000 to his Godson Lancelot Charles Brown, and an annuity to his sister Susannah Brown. So Susan was still alive and presumably unmarried. What was unexpected was an 1867 Codicil to the effect he had lent his brother Thomas Charles Brown divers sums amounting with interest to about £907 for the benefit of Lancelot Charles Brown, and that the legacy of £1,000 was to be held by the Executors as security until the £907 etc be well and truly paid. Effects under £9,000 including Leaseholds.
Thomas Charles Brown left everything to his dear wife Fanny Brown, his Effects under £450, and Fanny, otherwise Frances, left everything to their son Lancelot Charles Brown. Her Effects under £1,000.
JOH.
As an aside, Thomas Charles Brown seems to have been about 34 when he married Frances Page, about 23. One could perhaps speculate if he had had a previous marriage.
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Well we have had a great time away and we went to Cambridge records first but they didn't have to much in fact no weddings births or deaths of Rust existed so they cant say where the family came from and then to Build Alconbury Hall
At Huntingdon the same man was there as he was relief duty for that day and so we got out so many books
I found James Rust b 19th august 1798 with his sister Elizabeth b 12th august 1799 both baptized 9th Oct 1799
they had a whole page to themselves not a line and so the man agreed with me they are high ranking
all signed by rob heworth the curate
the parents were James and Margaret (Brown) Rust and they were all from Gransden
Huntingdonshire
I found it very Frustrating that we couldn't find all the 6 children christenings in the Church Record Book and they have not as yet been typed up
We now have Elizabeth/ George (he dies 1876) and his only son George inherits the house/ James he dies 1875/Sarah/William/Frances (she dies 1872)
If anyone else can come up with more info I would be greatfull
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Hi all,
I am not getting into a lot of the previous discussions re. mysteries re. Lancelot Brown, but just to inform you that an article on Lancelot Brown, his association with Fenstanton, Huntingdonshire and his descendants who lived in our county is to be published in the November issue of "The Huntsman", the journal of The Huntingdonshire Family History Society - see www.huntsfhs.org.uk
This is to coincide with the publication by us of the parish registers 1604 - 1920 on a CD, which should be out soon (if I was not typing this message I would be indexing the last few burials!). We already have the MIs available & these will be combined with the registers on one disc + photographs of the church/ village.
Mike Stephenson (Huntingdonshire F.H.S.)
P.S. Has anyone the burial date/ place (Pimlico) for the Rev. Thomas Charles Brown?
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It is interesting reading everyone's correspondence here. My husband's family has said that they think he is one of their ancestors. I've been tracing my husband's tree for him, but have only just got back to 1778. It doesn't help not knowing if he was a direct ancestor or a brother of one of theirs. Looks like I've got a bit of trawling to do!
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Just to let all persons interested in Capability Brown that the article on him in Fenstanton and his descendants in Huntingdonshire will be in the November issue of "The Huntsman". I was able to negotiate a good price for reproducing the Dance portrait of him from the National Portrait Gallery & it will be on the cover.
The Fenstanton parish register transcript has been extended to 1990 & this too should be available on CD in November - see the Huntingdonshire Family History Society website if you wish to order it.
Best wishes,
Mike Stephenson
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Hello
I've been intrigued by your message re the Rev. George Brown and Pucklechurch. I live there and I've been collecting information about local residents from a historical perspective ( I am actually a professional archaeologist rather than a historian) - I'd love to include something on this in our local parish newsletter - can you tell me more about his link with Capability?
Many thanks
Gail
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To any one that might be interested. I was sitting here just messing around online trying to find out some of my family's history. I came accross this site and thought I should shed a little bit of light to the mystery associated with Lance "Capability" Brown.
As hard as it may seem. I happen to be a direct decendant of Capability Brown. My great aunt who is still alive has a great deal of information about the man. She even has a picture of him on the wall. I myself don't have a lot of info. But I may be of some assistance. As I understand. My aunt has done the family history dating back to the mid 1400's. Some of which include Charles Dicken's and his side that goes back to King Edward III. Get back to me if I can help.
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hi my name is anita rice. i was a conning. i was watching tv the other day about big landscape gardens when the name capablity brown came up. i was talking to my son about it i said i think they are talking about one of your great g g grandads. he dident beleave me so he phoned my dad. and he confirmed it. so this got me thinking.about my family tree. my dad is david conning,my grandad is dennis conning who died in2002. his mum was called mable conning but befor she got married she was a brown .i think her name was in the 1901 cences. their was a family rift because i think she married someone beneath her. can anybody else tell me more about my family. thank you anita
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This recent biographical book will be of interest to all researching Lancelot 'Capability' Brown. It includes a very helpful family tree.
Lancelot 'Capability' Brown, 1716-1783: The Omnipotent Magician
Author Jane Brown.
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I know this post was from a while ago, however, just wondering if anyone has any information on Capability Browns parents and beyond? I am one of his Grand daughters from Henry Holland and Bridget Browns side
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Welcome to RootsChat
There is a family tree in the book preview at https://goo.gl/eMKQki
Stan
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This recent biographical book will be of interest to all researching Lancelot 'Capability' Brown. It includes a very helpful family tree.
Lancelot 'Capability' Brown, 1716-1783: The Omnipotent Magician
Author Jane Brown.
Sadly there are a good number of errors in her book, many in relation to LB's wife. A friend of mine wrote (from memory) 4 pages detailing them.
rdgs
Edward
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Thank you :)