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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Oxfordshire => Topic started by: 243rose on Saturday 05 April 08 22:26 BST (UK)
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what parish is this from a Surrey will ??
Any ideas welcome.
I'm baffled.
Iain.
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Looks like "Assen Senr" ???
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There are two Assendens (Lower and Upper) in Oxfordshire - could it be one of those?
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I've been searching the Oxfordshire parishes, Prue - Think that second word could certainly be Lower - Lowr .
Good one :D
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
The Assendens are in South Oxfordshire, There is a Lower and a Middle Assedon, but I have not heard of Upper Assendon at all, though there might have been at one tiime.
It is a very beautiful area! http://www.bixandassendon.org.uk/
Rabbit B ;) :D ;D
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Hi Rabbit :)
It was Prue that found it - not me. I just interpreted the Lowr bit.
Yes - it does look a lovely area :D
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I have just googled Upper Assendon, because I was curious, it looks as if at one time it might have been the land round Christmas Common that was referred to as Upper Assendon. That is the top end of the now Stonor valley.
No disrespect to Prue [sorry Pru] but I am a local you see!
Rabbit B ;) :D ;D
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No, Rabbit, you're correct - I had a temporary lapse and wrote "Upper" but it is actually "Middle" :)
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Hi Prue,
Actually it is you who is correct, sort of! My OH tells me that there is a hamlet of only a few houses, called Higher Assendon.
I was telling him about this last night, he used to deliver cars for a while after he retired, for the local garage. One chap had an address at Higher Assendon, turn right out of the Stonor Valley up a steep hill toward Christmas Common I am told.
So I was wrong I did not know that! But you learn something new every day don't you.
Rabbit B :-[
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So, getting back to the writing ;D
Do we think it's Assenden Lower or what ???
Gadget
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Hi.
only me again.
thanks for all yr help.
i don't think the writing says 'lower'.
looking again it says simply assen don.......... the person who wrote it was probably unfamiliar with the place name.
cheers
iain.
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Sorry, Iain
I don't agree. The other d in Oxfordshire is different and there is definitely an r written as superscript at the end.
Gadget
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Are you saying that the first word just says 'Assen' ?? and the whole Assen Low(r) ??
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That's what I'm thinking, Iain, not sure about the others. I'd hazard a guess that Assenden was abbreviated to Assen in this instance. The superscript 'r' is very pronounced in the second word.
Gadget :)
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I see what you mean.
Would thaey have abbreviated on a will ??.
i know it's not helpfull for all my helpers not to have sight of the entire document.
The writer of the will perhaps thought that Assen Don were two words instead of one and that the L is a capital D.
The author's lower case L's are not the same as the possible L in lower although i cannot find an example of an upper case L to compare.
But in general you have all agreed that it is most likely Assendon in one form or another whether it be upper, lower, middle or slightly left of centre and for that i thank you.
Iain.
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Gadget,
I am absolutely stumped! I have been looking at all the old maps of Oxfordshire, all morning, especially South Oxfordshire which I think it is.
I can find nothing that remotely resembles that word! I think that it begins with O, if you look and I have blown it up to 250% the O of Oxfordshire has a dot in the middle as well. That is a deffinate F because the s is so clearly written. Have you a date for this? I have some very old maps of the area, it might be a village long gone!
Rabbit B :-\
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Hi Rabbit :)
The 'f' is the way they used to write the first 's'
I'm going with Assen(den) Low(e)r
Gadget
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the will is 1818
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http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/gazplace?GR=SU740840,PLACE=LOWER%20ASSENDON,CCC=OXF
Hopefully this link will work...should show you where Lower Assendon is located.
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thanks.
the deceased was james BAGG of Wootton in Surrey.
THe Assendon link was a Joseph BAGG who would inherit if everyone else died.
He wasn't a son so must havebeen another relative.
Thanks
iain
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Well I've fiddled with it, diddled with it, changed me glasses and traced over it, and it still looks the same...
There is a Lower Assendon near Henley on Thames...
I'm plumping for that.
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in years gone by perhaps the place name was two words Assen Don ?? is it ever referred to by just Assen which would then make the Lower part easier on the eye ??
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Iain
You keep ignoring the superscript 'r' It's the best sign there is.
Gadget :)
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i'm not ignoring it... i just am not sold on it.
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it would be easier if the L looked like an L which it doesn't.
It is a definate D.
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Recall how the L in LDS was written - it's very similar.
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i could email you the whole document and then you could compare with other letters on it.
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Have a look at the Ls on here, particularly the right hand one :
http://www.genealogia.fi/faq/faq031ce.htm
also:
http://www.genealogia.fi/faq/faq031fe.htm
I'll PM you my e-mail :)
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At first glance, I would have said the middle word was South. It looks like "Sou", superscript "th", to me.
I also though that the first letter could be an "O" perhaps followed by an "l" but the equally it could be an "A". Several letters in the adjoining words are more open than the same letter elsewhere. The long letter is definitely an "s" (the ascender is before the descending stroke on the lower part, rather than after it).
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Iain - what was the name of the person who lived in the parish?
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the will is of james BAGG.
The person living in Oxfordshire is Joseph BAGG.
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Entering the fray very belatedly....I initially thought there was a superscript 'r' at the end of the second word. However, the writer has also added a vaguely similar curlicue to the 'e' of Oxfordshire, so I'm now wondering if this might be some sort of affectation in his handwriting rather than a superscript.
The more I look at it the more I see Assen Don.
Jennifer
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However, it clearly says "parish of" so shouldn't it refer to a parish rather than a village or hamlet?
If the writer was not local could it be "Asson" for Aston? There are several parishes called Aston ... in Oxfordshire.
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i did initially think it may be aston as there are a few parishes that start this way.
however is does look like assen Don.
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According to IGI there was a Robert Baggs christened in Aston Rowant in 1771 whose parents were Joseph and Ann.
How old would you expect your Joseph to be at the time of the will?
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No clue, James who is the subject of the will was born in 1730ish where is unknown.
his 4 children john ann louisa and harriett were born 1783, 1785, 1787 and 1790 all baptised in Abinger, Surrey. Joseph BAGG must be a relative of sorts........ brother ??, son by a 1st mariage as ann his named wife was 23 years his junior.
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As I said, I've searched everywhere for this Joseph. Only ones that look possible on census and IGI nearly all are Dorset.
I can't find a Parish that looks anything like this in Oxfordshire or Berkshire. Assenden (Lower, Middle or Upper) is the only one that comes anywhere close to it but it wasn't a parish in it's own right.
I think it might be worth waiting for Rabbit to come up with something - she's the local :)
Gadget
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It certainly felt like an L when I traced over it...
I would have been happier if it had carried on through to the next letter, but perhaps the pen was sticking in the paper...
Assen. Lowr. is about the only place I can find that resembles the writing, though I am not completely sold on the long s idea.
To me long s is like a printed f this is a written f and if doesn't seem so convincing.
But I can't find anywhere that would fit !!!!!!!!!
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Hi Gadget,
This 'she' rabbit is stumped! However, think about this! That O in Oxfordshire has a dot in and so does the first letter of the village. Also in the days when they used F instead of S they did not mix the two!
One of my hobbies is reading old tombstones, which reminds me. I have a Vicar Friend who might be able to read this. May I send it to him? He has worked in all the parishes here about. he might be able to answer this!
I really wish I could be more help!
Rabbit B :(
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Hi Mrs Rabbit :)
Iain sent me the full will.
The A is consistent with all the other As in the text. The 'f' is unlike the other fs and is, to my mind, definitely the old s. The L could be an S but I'm still going with L and the superscript is definitely an r. I'm still voting for Assen/Asson Lower!
My eyes are not in a good state now :'(
I think you'll have to as Iain for permission :)
Gadget
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Assen. Lowr. is about the only place I can find that resembles the writing, though I am not completely sold on the long s idea.
To me long s is like a printed f this is a written f and if doesn't seem so convincing.
I'm sure the 'f' is a long s.
I'm sticking with Assen Don
Jennifer
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Free downloadable parish map of Oxfordshire available here;
http://www.ofhs.org.uk/web/parmapCounty/index.html
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had a look at that last night.
nothing took my eye. there is an Aston Rowant which is remote i suppose.
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Real tricky one this!
I've looked at numerous things too - been through all the registration district lists, etc.
Even tried looking on ancestry, at parish registers, censuses, freebdm familysearch, etc, etc - they don't leave mcuh in the way of clues. (in the hope of tracking forward and backwards).
I do think there is embellishment in the writing style., which might deceive.
Paulene :)
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i agree.
i still think the original Assendon may be correct.
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Rabbit very kindly sent me this thread to look at, so for my half penn'th, Upper Assenden was certainly being used for the "main road" which runs north through Stonor now and past the Stonor estate in the 1841 Census. The next division as it were was just past Stonor Park where the road rises towards Christmas Common and was /is called Pishill.
I dont know if this helps, but I was confused when I couldn't find Stonor listed on the ( from memory ) 41 Census when I was looking up the house where my sister now lives. Turns out it was listed under Upper Assenden, a name which now is not locally used, and comprised a community with 2/3 farms, post office, forge and school. The parish for the area was/is Pishill with Stonor. The local C of E church being at Pishill, but the majority of the locals would have been "tied" to the Stonor estate with its own Catholic chapel which meant that many of them were christened there instead of the local C of E church. ;D
Jackie
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Well in the meantime, I have sent it all to the local Vicar friend of mine, he is sure that the parish begins with O as well. I have been through all the maps and cannot find anything to match it!
I am well and truly stumped on this one so sorry not to have been more help!
If Jackie cannot read it no one can! She is the expert in this area!
Rabbit B ;D
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I agree with PrueM's original suggestion of Lower Assendon.
To me the writing says:
Assen Lowr
It's surely probable that the testator, James BAGG, had heard Joseph's residence as Assen Lower, and/or that he pronounced/slurred it thus when making his will; and/or that neither he nor the scribe knew that it was really Assendon nor had any idea that it was formally in the parish of Bix.
Rabbit B's early link to the Bix & Assendon page has a good history which indicates that the parish of Bix included the hamlets of Bix, Lower Assendon and Middle Assendon.
Prue linked to a modern map which shows the villages.
Lower Assendon can also be found on the oldmaps site - probably easiest to find Bix and then scroll to the SE.
I don't know much about Oxfordshire (well, virtually nothing!) but I do remember reading on RC that IGI records for Oxfordshire are poor.
Perhaps the Oxfordshire Records Office and/or the Oxfordshire Family History Society might have resources which might include the name of Joseph BAGG?
JAP
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Thanks everyone who contributed to this.
I am happy that it is probably, maybe, could be Assendon/ Assen Lower.
Cheers
Iain
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Thank you JAP :) - I'm glad that Prue and my interpretation of a while back has been thirded.
Gadget
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I usually shy away from making "me too" posts - seconding, thirding or whatever ;)
I came across this thread yesterday when I was checking out 'deciphering' threads. Such queries are always an interesting challenge - and (hoping to 'keep my hand in') I always make a decision/guess on the initial post before reading further i.e. before seeing what others think the writing says (and usually others have arrived at the correct answer long before I've looked at the thread).
This time it immediately seemed to me on initial reading to be " Assen Lowr ".
Then, having read through the thread, it seemed to me that it might perhaps be helpful to endorse the initial interpretation(s) and to add some thoughts. Which I've done.
We none of us can guarantee what it says but I have to admit that I'd be very surprised if it isn't Assen Lower - Assen easily acceptable as a slurred rendering of Assendon. Admittedly Assendon Lower is not the name of an Oxfordshire parish but the testator and the scribe of a Surrey Will would far from necessarily be familiar with the formal details of Oxfordshire parishes.
Let's hope there are some relevant Oxfordshire records re Joseph BAGG - which might serve to place him in Lower Assendon.
JAP
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The Parish Records for Aston Rowant show a burial for a Joseph Baggs on September 27th, 1809. I can find no relevant entries for villages near Assendon i.e. Bix, Pishill, Swyncombe, Nettlebed.
Perhaps the place name is a poor and abbreviated attempt at Aston Rowant?
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thnks for that.
i had wondered about Aston Rowant. i reckon you may have cracked this.
do you have transcriptions for the parishes you mention ???????
iain
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Yes!
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The information that a Joseph BAGGS died in 1809 in Aston Rowant, Oxfordshire is obviously interesting. (Incidentally, that might well be the Joseph BAGGS, father of Robert BAGGS, mentioned earlier by DudleyWinchurch in reply #34 - from the IGI, Robert BAGGS, son of Joseph & Ann, bap 1771.)
However, it's surely unlikely that a chap who had died in 1809 would be the person named as the alternate/residual beneficiary in an 1818 Will (unless, of course, James BAGG, Yeoman in Wotton, Surrey wasn't aware that the person named in his Will as Joseph BAGG of what appears to be Assen Lowr, Oxfordshire had died 9 years earlier ...).
I wonder whether anyone has access to Oxfordshire directories ...
JAP
PS: Iain, perhaps you could tell us all you know about James BAGG, and what the Will says (I see that it's only a couple of pages).
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I agree that a chap who died in 1809 doesn't appear at first sight to be the likely beneficiary of an 1818 Will, however I still can't find a relevant BAGGS in the area even when I extend the search to Henley, Watlington and villages further afield. I'm afraid I don't have access to the records of parishes on the Buckinghamshire side of the Stonor valley, but I would have expected someone living in Assendon to have attended the closer churches of Bix, Pishill, Nettlebed or even Swyncombe. I can't find any relevant BAGGS in those parishes.
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hello.
the will was proved in 1818. It is not clear when it was made as there is some crossing out and correction. James Bagg died in 1818 and was born in 1730 according to his age at death in the Abinger, SURREY parish register.
His wife Ann BAGG (nee CARTER) died in 1828 and was born in 1753..............she was some 23 years his junior. They were married in Wotton, Surrey in 1782. James BAGG was not born in Wotton or Abinger.
they had 4 children.
john b.1783 d.1799
ann b.1785
Louisa b.1787
Harriet b. 1790
there is an additional text to the will scrawled in the margin which i cannot read....
i wonder whether i could e-mail the will to anyone interested so they can have a better look. the will is 576KB so i cannot post it on the forum. If you could send me a private message with yr e-mail i would be happy to send the will.
Thanks
Iain.
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Iain, Thanks for emailing the Will to me. I'll email a full transcription (insofar as I can decipher it!) to you in a while.
However, I'll just mention that the Will was actually drawn up in January 1801. This date suggests that the Aston Rowant records of a Joseph BAGGS who was father of a Robert bap in 1771 (found by DudleyWinchurch) and a Joseph BAGGS who died in 1809 (found by rreadings) are probably one and the same person, and very probably the right chap :) It would be interesting to know the age of the Joseph who died in 1809. Perhaps he might have been a brother of James of the Will?
The 1801 Will was proven in 1818 - obviously James hadn't bothered to amend his original Will in the intervening years (and it wouldn't really have been necessary as residual provisions were spelled out in detail at the time the Will was written).
The date when the Will was drawn up is clearly stated as follows:
"Witness my hand this Fifth Day of January One thousand eight hundred & one
James Bagg"
But another clue to the fact that the Will was drawn up considerably earlier than the date (1818) when it was proved is that it has references to the three daughters which indicate that they were under 21.
From the baptismal dates you've given for Ann, Louisa and Harriett, they would have been well over 21 by the date of James's death (1818). They would have been aged 33, 31 and 28 respectively in 1818 but would have been under 21 - 16, 14 and 11 respectively - in 1801.
All the best,
JAP
PS: As far as I can determine, the 1830 entry in the margin doesn't help - it's just passing administration of the Will, following the death of James's wife Ann, to one of the daughters - described as Harriott KNIGHT wife of Thomas KNIGHT.
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Looks like 'Assen South Oxfordshire'. Sorry to muddy the waters. :-\
The South being written with the 'th' to look like when writing dates (i.e. 20th).
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Well here's a compromise: since Aston Rowant is only 11 miles from Assendon it is not inconceivable that Joseph Baggs was living in Assendon at the time the Will was written and moved back to Aston Rowant in late middle age - possibly to be near his son Robert (b. March 24th, 1771).
rreadings
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Hi.
I don't see any reason why that can't be the case after all, 10 miles is not far even in those days.... did you happen to work out when the will was made, Joseph Bagg apparently dided in 1808 ?
cheers
iain.
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Iain, My reply above reveals that the Will was drawn up in 1801. And according to rreadings, Joseph BAGGS died in 1809.
Jinxy, Could be - but that doesn't really get us further forward I guess.
I've looked at the whole Will and I'd have to say that the scribe is anything but consistent in his upper case 'S's and upper case 'L's - in most of the words, one can pick which letter it is meant to be from the context but just looking at one separately, it could be either.
He's also inconsistent with his lower case 'e's and 'o's. Sometimes the 'o's are circular and closed but at other times they are indistinguishable from his Secretary Hand 'e's. I really can't pick which he means (i.e. 'e' or 'o') in the extract we are looking at ...
And if the second word is South, then is it:
Assen/Asson in South Oxfordshire
or
Assen South/Asson South in Oxfordshire
;)
I guess Assen/Asson could be a slurred version of Aston. And it could be an abbreviated reference to Aston Rowant. But I see from maps that there's also a hamlet called Aston in Oxfordshire ...
However, the Joseph BAGGS of Aston Rowant (whether one person or two different people) does sound most likely. rreadings, is his age at death/burial mentioned by any chance?
Cheers,
JAP
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Looks like 'Assen South Oxfordshire'. Sorry to muddy the waters. :-\
The South being written with the 'th' to look like when writing dates (i.e. 20th).
Now we are back to the beginning and what I said to start with!
However, I have just had a thought, in those days Assendon [came under Henley Rural District Council as an administrative area, the South Oxfordshire bit did not really come in until the 70's when they reorganised eveything]
But of course Assendon is in the south of the County!
Rabbit B :)
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JAP.
I am really sorry :'( i hadn't seen yr reply that told me the will was made in 1801..... for some reason the 'show new replies to yr posts' wasn't working correctly.
thanks for the translation of the margin writing insofar as you were able to pick out Harriets married name and her husbands.
Ann BAGG was 23 years younger than James, i wonder whether she was his 2nd marriage.
i had wondered whether joseph was his son from a first marriage. Mind you he probably would have provided for him in his will directly if this had been the case. James doesn't appear in the parish registers of Abinger, Wotton, or Oakfield prior to his marriage, tracking down joseph may be the key.
James describes himself as a 'Yeoman', i know that his daughter Louisa from whom i am decended married a bricklayer, i'll have to follow up Harriet and Ann who married a john BAxter. perhaps he had large debts, but certainly Louisa did not marry someone of the same status.
Anyway JAP.
Thanks :P
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Hi - can I chip in :)
from the register transcripts of Aston Rowant, these are the only mentions of the surname Baggs
Baptisms
1771 Robert s/o Joseph & Ann
1787 FOXALL William s/o Phineas Foxall & Maria Baggs
Marriage
1787 Thomas Varnon of Sherbourn to Maria Baggs
witnessed by Thomas Hixon & James Crowford
Burials
1809 Joseph Baggs (no age given)
1823 Ann Baggs aged 84
I checked the Oxfordshire marriage index and there is no mention of a Joseph Baggs at all
:-\
Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
The IGI has a few entries for the name (variously spelled) in Oxfordshire - though the IGI seems pretty poor on Oxfordshire records.
However, confusingly (in the light of the entries you found), it has the following baptisms:
William BAGGS, bap 4 Nov 1787, parents Phineas Foxell BAGGS & Maria
Wm BAGGS, bap 14 Nov 1787, parents Phineas Foxall BAGGS & Maria
Both extracted entries, both Aston Rowant, same batch number (C038311) and same film number (0095204).
JAP
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Debbie.
thanks for this.
i suppose we can reasonably assume that the ANN in the burial register is the wife of joseph.
if she was born about 1739 then Joseph maybe 1735ish................ James was born in 1730 so perhaps brother then.
It's funny that the Baggs are not particularly prominent in surrey either...... although looking at the Surrey MArriage index there are only 3. one is a James BAGG though married in 1764 in FRENSHAM Surrey to an Esther Belemey..... could be the first marriage ??
ta
iain