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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: tmm1975 on Friday 04 April 08 13:41 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for information on the Roser family. William and Dianah Roser married in 1830 and had Lucy (1831), Elizabeth (1835), Mary Anne (1836), Dianah (1842), William John (1844), Caroline (1847) and James (1852). I am looking in this county as Lucy's Death record is listed as her being born in Gravesend. I realise that as romani they probably moved aroung alot, but figured I had to start somewhere!!!
Thanks
Tanya
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Hi Tanya,
Is this any use?
1841
HO107/1115/1 32 4
East Grinstead, Sussex
Grinstead Common
William Roser, 35, Ag lab, no
Diana, 30, no
John, 12, no
Lucy, 10, yes
Elizabeth, 8, yes
Franciss (female), 6, yes
Mary Ann, 3, yes
:)
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Hi Tati,
So sorry I should have made note that the family arrived in the swan river colony in August 1842. I haven't heard of John or Francis before and after looking at the dates I am not sure that we are on the same page. I am going to have a squiz on the IGI and see if there are any other listings for the family. I guess I need to gain access to the earlier cencuses. Thanks for your help, but please don't be put off I need all the help I can get!!!
Thanks
Tanya
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Hi Tanya
That family that Tati posted looks good to me :)
I guess I need to gain access to the earlier cencuses
There are very few earlier census and those that do survive are merely lists of heads of households only.
There appear to be a number of submitted (by persons like you or me) entries on the IGI for this family but I could only see two quite likely possible parish register entries:
Lucy (dau of William & Diana) baptised East Grinstead, Sussex 1832 and John (son of William & Diana) baptised Mereworth, Kent 1829.
Would Swan River Colony be Australia?
Do you know where William & Diana married in 1830?
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi & Tati,
I have just checked my notes and a book written about the Roser family (written prior to the internet) and given the fact that the author has never found a registration for the marriage or birth of any of their children I would have to expect that she has absolutely no records and is going on verbal family history. Therefore it is quite likely that John and Francis belonged to William and Dianah. As for a date for their marriage, the author claims that she has gone right through the mormon genealogial library records and found nothing. It appears though they spent alot of time in Kent, as Lucy death cert states that she was born in Gravesend, Kent. Could someone explain how far gravesend is from East Grinstead where she was baptised?
Thanks
Tanya
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Hi Tanya
Could someone explain how far gravesend is from East Grinstead where she was baptised?
Just under 40 miles on todays roads according to the RAC routeplanner
http://www.rac.co.uk/web/routeplanner/
Although the census aren't always accurate, the 1841 census does indicate that Lucy was born in Sussex ie. "yes" for whether born in county of residence. Could Grinstead have been mistaken for Gravesend at some point - they begin and end with the same letters and old handwriting can be difficult to deciper at times and/or did they sail from Gravesend? Adding to that, it is an added difficulty pinpointing exactly where travellers were born and/or baptised as they were on the move all the time and many weren't absolutely sure.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi,
Quite possibly they were mixed up. It is interesting that her death cert and the census read differently, I wonder if the census is more likely to be correct though, would you need proff of birth location to aquire a death cert in aust? will have to ring tomorrow and find out! I guess you would assume that the head of the house would have given the info. Maybe I need to look in Sussex a little more.
Also interesting is that the family is said to have sailed from London in 1842, do you have any idea of where is london they would have sailed from?
Thanks
Tanya
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I think many people sailed from Gravesend.
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Hi Tanya
I see the ship was the "Simon Taylor" http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/shipping/simon-t.htm
"The Times" of Tuesday 3 May 1842 reports "Ships sailing from Gravesend (Kent) April 29/30 May 1/2"
The "Simon Taylor" for "Swan River".
The passenger list (link posted above) shows the children as in the 1841 census of East Grinstead with the exception of John. Do you know what became of him?
Some ships loaded up with cargo in the London docks and then picked passengers up in Gravesend a day or so later.
would you need proff of birth location to aquire a death cert in aust?
I doubt it very much and in any case birth certificates didn't come into being here in England until 1837 and even then the rules for registering births weren't tightened until the 1870s.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/037q/ gives dates of birth for both William & Diana - would these have come from death certificates would you know and, if so, would there be any places of birth or names of parents for either of them?
Casalguidi :)
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i am desperate for any news of this family.iam romany myself and some of the wilsons and rosers married into my gess/and saunders family here in england.i too would love to know more about what happened to john.and i would love to find the perants of william and diana.cathayb
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Hi Cathayb
What info did you want to know about the rosers... I only know what happened to the family when they arrived in australia. I am still searching for info on them in England, this is probably quite fruitless though as they were Romany. Let me know.
Tanya
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no its not fruitless.i am a romamy researcher myself as my husband and i are still 100%romany and live on a romany site in england and keep the ways.the wonderful thing about roms is they liked to christen their kids so i am sure we will find out more and i need to search the parish registers.i really need to know who william and dinanas perants were as then i can try and tie them to the english roser and wilson roms.i also would like to know what happened to john as he didnt go to aussie and i cant find a death record for him.if your interested i will post a personal message with my email address and we can keep in touch.are you related to them?i want to stay on this board aswell in case anyone else comes up with something.i have quite a bit on wilson/roser families in england after 1851.romany hugs cathay
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Hi Tanya,
I think you might be referring to my great-great-great-great-grandparents, William Roser & Dianah Wilson, who immigrated to Australia about 1842? They bore 8 children in total; Lucy, Elizabeth, Fanny, Mary Ann, Diana, William John, Caroline, & James.
Their daughter Lucy, is my great-great-great-grandmother. She married a John Charles Playle 28th Dec 1849 in Northam, Western Australia. She died 13th Sep 1913 in Northam, Western Australia.
Most of the Rosers/Playles settled in Northam & Toodyay in Western Australia. I have a few photos of headstones from the Northam Cemetery I'm happy to share with you, but I've attached a photo of Lucy Roser & John Charles Playle for you.
I've only just started branching out more on the Rosers/Playles, so I don't have alot of info, but I would be glad to help in any way that I can.
Regards,
Rachael
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Hi Rachael,
Nice to hear from you. Do you live in WA firstly?
I too come from this line. Lucy and John Charles' son William married Rosanna Ann Greenacre. Their daughter Eileen Maude married Ivo Herbert Harrold and their son Norman George married Thelma Irene Henningsen. So that would make Lucy and Charles my GGG grandparents also.
Do you have the book 'In search of Elizabeth'? I recognize the photo that you posted, I also have a copy of this. William and Dianah had another son, his name was John and he was born in 1829 and christened in Mereworth Kent. Don't know what happened to him yet, but as we both know he didn't come to Aust.
I have also found William Rosers' parents name too. Would love to see the headstone photo's haven't been out to Northam yet. Planning to go to Toodjay over the next few weeks. I live in Perth (High Wycombe) so it is only about an hour a way. Will be going to the cemetary to see what I can find.
Anyhow my email address is email address removed by moderator - please use the secure Rootschat personal message system to exchange personal email addresses thankyou
Hope to hear from you soon.
Cheers
Tanya
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Hi Tanya,
Yes, I'm in Busselton, 250kms south of Perth.
I've been reading "In search of Elizabeth", but according to my grand-uncle, Donald Johnson (great-grandson of Lucy Roser), the Rosers are not Romany gypsies, but were in fact simple farmers, who moved to where the work was, which might explain why they never stayed in one spot for too long. So, right now I'm completely confused and not sure which is the correct story! :-S
Where on earth did you find William Roser's parents names?! I've been searching high and low on findmypast.co.uk and other bdm sites, but to no avail!
Regards,
Rachael
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A couple of additions in case anybody doesn't have them:
Elizabeth bp East Grinstead 2 Mar 1834 dau of William & Diana ROSA
William ROSE married Diana WILSON 13 Apr 1828 Otford Kent
http://www.familysearch.org
Casalguidi :)
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you will find their family before they went to australia in the 1841 cencus on ancestry.co.uk in kent and also in the baptismal records on the county of kents(england).i will try and find the http for you but its such a long time ago i looked into them.you will also find them under showman where thery called themselves rosaires and their is quite a good trree of them on the rosaires circus folk aswell.thats where i found my connection to them as one of them married into my gess family and they are definately gypsies in their england roots.romany roser is a good perdon to contact.she lives in perth.she also has a good website on gypsies.shes the lady who wrote in search of elizabeth.where did you get your copy from?i have been trying for years to get a copy.
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Hi cathayb, the author was Janice Young; Jan James her name is now. She lives in Northam, where most of the Rosers resided.
Sadly, I'm only borrowing the State Library of WA's copy of "In Search Of Elizabeth"; they are now out of production and Jan tells me that they can retail up to $80 in a second hand shop if you're lucky enough to find one.
Thanks casalguidi, I didn't think of using Family Search :-)
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Hi Rachael, Casalguidi and Cathay,
I would have to agree with you Cathay, they are definately gypsies/travelling folk. I believe that a lot of the time they were farmed during the off season. would that be correct? I don't think you will ever get a copy of 'In Search of Elizabeth' I think I asked Jan for a copy when I saw her last and she said that there were no more. Luckily our family has one and my mum and let me use it.
So we are not too far away from each other, Rachael. Do you come up here very often? Would love to compare notes. Either in Perth or Busso. What do you think?
Thanks again Casalguidi for the info.
Cheers
Tanya
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Hi Tanya,
After searching for William & Dianah Roser on the Welcome Walls website, I think you guys are right, as it states that their usual occupation in England was Romany Gypsy! I think my great-uncle will be shocked to see the proof, as he's always maintained they were not Gypsies!!!
I'd love to catch up Tanya, and compare notes, although your notes will be significantly greater than mine! I'm going up to Perth in the next month or so to see my great uncle, as he has a lot of family photos and death certificates he won't send down in the post for me (sigh), so maybe we can catch up when I'm up there.
In regards to Williams parents, I was trolling through Familysearch.org the other day and came across a birth record for a William Roser, born 22 Feb 1802, to a Thomas & Sarah Roser in Appeldore, Kent....am I on the right track???
Rachael
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Ok, I'm a little confused....
Had another look at the Rosers arrival in Fremantle on the Welcome Walls website...but there's 2 separate listings with key differences....
Links are as follows:
1. http://welcomewalls.museum.wa.gov.au/search_viewlisting.asp?PID=12292&PN=1&SearchKey=roser&SearchType=1
2. http://welcomewalls.museum.wa.gov.au/search_viewlisting.asp?PID=16713&PN=1&SearchKey=roser&SearchType=1
Which one is correct???
Rachael
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Hi Rachael,
Don't take too much notice of the Welcome Walls. They are done by family members. For example; my great aunt gave the Fremantle Maritime Museum all the information for my Nonna's families plaque. They then sent her a certificate stating there was a plaque on the welcome walls. If you look up the names, Green and Beacham you will find that Jane daughter of the William and Mary Beacham appears in two separate plaques and that she is also mentioned in George Green's plaque as she married him.
For sure on the catch up. I got most of my info from Jan James the lady who wrote 'In search of Elizabeth'. There is not much more to find that she hasn't. I was speaking to Jan the other night about the possibility of the William Roser (b 1902 - Appledore Kent) being our William Roser. We both determined that we will need to get their marriage certificate. I have a friend in England that I may be able to ask for help.
Jan has been searching for over 30 years for his parents/birth. It was only when Ancestry released the bmds that it surfaced. She is now also a little unsure as to whether William really was romany, so would be very interested to hear what your great uncle has to say. Can I ask who he is? She is positive that Diana was definately Romany because she can be traced to other romany families, (although I do not have this information) but as for William she is wondering whether he only married into the Romany. Really need that marriage certificate.
What part of Perth are you heading to... I am in High Wycombe, which is off Roe Highway.
Tanya
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Tanya,
I really don't know which listing is correct, my gut tells me the arrival on the 20 August 1842 is, as the Dictionary of West Australians lists them as arriving Oct 1842....
Is it possible to obtain William's marriage certificate? Ukbmd.co.uk only has records from 1837 onwards.
My grand-uncle maintains that the Rosers were itinerant workers/farmers, and has been researching for about 30+yrs, never finding any connection to Gypsies, so I'm not sure what to believe!!!
I'm looking at coming to Perth around mid-Feb, staying with my sister in Ballajura, should be easy to get to High Wycombe from there.
Rachael
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You could try contacting Sevenoaks Library to see whether they have film of the original registers
http://www.kent.gov.uk/KCC.Libraries.Web.Sites.Public/LibraryDetails.aspx?aid=0&lid=62
Otherwise using http://www.familysearch.org search the library catalogue for Otford and, for a small fee, order the relevant film for viewing at your local LDS centre (details will be on the site).
The original marriage may be no help at all, as is often the case pre 1837, but should be checked out just in case to see whether there is any useful information ie. maritual status, names of witnesses.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Rachael and Casalguidi,
Just copied this from the Perth DPS site.
"The emigrant ship Simon Taylor sailed from London on April 30, 1842. She was under the command of Thomas Brown and arrived off Fremantle in the Swan River Colony 111 days later on August 20, 1842.
There were 242 passengers in all - 5 traveled in the cabins and the rest in steerage. Of those, 219 were assisted migrants and 18 were Parkhurst boys.
The 18 Parkhurst lads were convicted children from the Isle of Wight and by 1852 a further 316 had been sent to the Swan River and apprenticed to local settlers. Other boys were sent to Tasmania, New Zealand, Victoria and even Norfolk Island.
[Top] Name Age Family/Single Occupation Quarantine Comments
ROSER William 39 F Ag. Lab. 27 days ROSER on Quarantine List & ROSE on Ship List.
ROSER Diana 33 F ... 27 days ROSER on Quarantine List & ROSE on Ship List.
ROSER Lucy 11 F ... 27 days ROSER on Quarantine List & ROSE on Ship List.
ROSER Elizabeth 9 F ... 27 days ROSER on Quarantine List & ROSE on Ship List.
ROSER Fanny 7 F ... 27 days ROSER on Quarantine List & ROSE on Ship List.
ROSER Mary Ann 6 F ... 27 days ROSER on Quarantine List & ROSE on Ship List."
COURTESY OF PERTH DPS
The Roser's were in quarantine for 27 days so that would make them released to Clarence Quarantine Camp on the 16th September 1842. Does your great uncle know why Mary and Elizabeth died? Wondering if perhaps Mary died in birth, could she have been pregnant? Do you think it is possible that Elizabeth died as she was so young and her mother had passed?
Looking for a list of Gypsy Ships, I always thought that the Simon Taylor left from Gravesend, Kent not London.
Tanya :D
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Hi Tanya,
I guess by the time they were released from quarantine, it times out about right to what was printed in the Dictionary of West Australians Vol. 1. The more I look at it, the more I think that this Welcome Wall listing (http://welcomewalls.museum.wa.gov.au/search_viewlisting.asp?PID=12292&PN=1&SearchKey=roser&SearchType=1) is correct, but there's still that inkling in the back of my mind as to whether they were gypsies or not..... :-S
As for Mary and Elizabeth, Jan James states in her book 'In Search of Elizabeth' that Elizabeth was perhaps taken by natives (although Jan has now found that Elizabeth did live and go on to marry and die in the eastern states), and that Mary Ann died in 1843 of severe burns.
I have to agree with you on the departure location, I always thought the Simon Taylor did sail from Gravesend, however my great-great-great grandmother Lucy Roser's future husband, John Charles Playle, was onboard the same ship, and he was born in Essex, so it kind of makes sense that they would meet in London to board the Simon Taylor.
Rachael
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however my great-great-great grandmother Lucy Roser's future husband, John Charles Playle, was onboard the same ship, and he was born in Essex, so it kind of makes sense that they would meet in London to board the Simon Taylor.
No, that wouldn't necessarily make sense - Gravesend is the other side of the river Thames from Essex. The "Simon Taylor" did sail from Gravesend as noted in "The Times" newspaper shipping columns of the day (see one of my posts above). It was quite common for ships of the day to be loaded with cargo at one of the London docks then pick up their passengers in Gravesend.
Casalguidi :)
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Well I'll be damned, thanks for clearing that up :)
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Hi Rachael,
R u still heading up to perth soon?
Tanya
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Hi Tanya,
Yep, plan at the moment is coming up Thursday 17th Feb, home on the Sunday.
Got a bit to do, have to go to Karrakatta Cemetery, State Library and out to Como to see my great-uncle, but I can fit in a time to see you. What day is good for you?
Rachael
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Hi Rachael,
I work on Friday, but am basically free the rest of the time. Did you want to make it on the Sunday before you head back?
Tanya
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Hi Tanya,
The Sunday sounds fine, I usually take off from Perth to head home about 7:30, which means I'll be at yours by about 8:30.....would you like to send me a pm with your address and phone number and we can organise it over the phone?
Rachael
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Hi Rachael,
That sounds good. How do I PM?
Tanya
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Tanya,
Click on my user name, there will be an option to send me a personal message.
Rachael
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Hey everyone,
I think I just found William & Dianah's first-born son John!!!
According to this death record I found on Familysearch, there was a John Roser buried in East Grinstead, Sussex, on the 18th of August 1841, which may be our John!
He was listed on the 1841 UK Census in East Grinstead, alive and well at age 12, but he never arrived in Australia with the rest of the family....perhaps this explains it?
What do you guys think?
https://www.familysearch.org/s/recordDetails/show?uri=http://pilot.familysearch.org/records/trk:/fsrs/rr_264216038/p1&hash=HloWXpZgU9zB10k5M56iYku8TUc%253D
Rachael
P.S. I've ordered a death certificate from the UK, should get dispatched to me 25th Feb, so I should have my hands on it by early March.... :-)
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Hi Rachael,
Yes you have found John. I forwarded that entry to Jan about 6mths back. We both agreed that it is safe to assume that it is him as it is where the family was living at the time. Still looking for his burial plot though, maybe we can brainstorm when you come over. Be careful about ordering Death Certs from the UK, quite often they don't have parents listed from what I have been told.
Cheers
Tanya
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Hi Rachael and Cathay,
Just a quick check in to say hi and to also let you both know that I have acquired a copy of 'In Search of Elizabeth" in digital form. So... if you still haven't managed to get your hands on a copy I can help!
Tanya
:)