RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: genjen on Sunday 30 March 08 18:11 BST (UK)
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Hi,
This is a bit of a long shot but always worth a try.
I had a great-uncle, Robert Howe, born 1892, Nairn, Scotland, parents Clarence Samuel Howe and Catherine Shaw. He emigrated to Australia, not sure when but the story goes that he fought in WW1 in the Australian armed forces - don't know whether it was army or navy though the rest of the family was very much a seafaring one. I believe he lost an arm and that when he was invalided out of the forces, he stayed in Australia - N.S.W. I think, where he became secretary to the Governor of the state.
This story came from an elderly cousin of my father so I'm not sure of how accurate it is but would be extremely grateful if anyone can come up with any information on Robert. The only other thing I "know" is that his wife and one daughter were named Betty ( presumably Elizabeth).
If he was a fairly high ranking civil servant, I imagine there will be some mention of him in some state archives.
With so little to go on, I'm not sure what to expect but I always have high hopes of Rootschatters.
Cheers,
Jen
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Well, he did serve in WWI:
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch.aspx
(I searched for Robert Howe Nairn and one record came up).
His next of kin is originally given as mother Mrs C. Howe, address in Aberdeen but a bit hard to read as at some point it has been crossed over and replaced with 'widow, L. E. Howe, 3 Story St, Parkville, Vic'. He gave his occupation as seaman. There are some notes on page 4 of his records about hospital stays - in 1917, listed as, Genl Hosp. S.W.C/F Rt. Arm.
There is also a letter to him indicating that some belongings of F. A. Howe, his brother, also of the A.I.F. were being forwarded to him (after some delay in locating R. Howe as next of kin).
There seems to be another possible brother - James Shaw Howe, b. Nairn, mother Catherine Howe of Aberdeen - in the WWI records. He died in 1917 due to wounds received in action. There are a series of letters in his file to/from a Mrs W. Tulloch/Tullock, who had been writing to him and not receiving any response, throughout 1915. Later on she describes him as a great friend of hers, and asks if he's left any money for her sister, Miss Madden... ???
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Oh wow, that's wonderful. In a minute I am going to have good look at the link you have given me but I wanted to say thank you first.
Frederick Arthur was Robert's brother and I knew that he had also gone to Australia and died there. James Shaw Howe's death record, I do have but didn't know about the letters so now I want to find out what that was about. Who, I wonder, were Mrs Tulloch and Miss Madden?
Many thanks,
Jen
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I have just spent two hours going through the records of all the men mentioned above. What an amazing resource.
I now know that Robert Howe was barely taller than I am, at 5'3" and weighing in at only nine stones. Very like my grandfather, his younger brother, who was tiny and slightly built. Frederick Arthur Howe was a bit of a rebel and was court martialled and sentenced to one hundred days confinement. His brother, Robert, in a letter, said that he considered Frederick to be "mentally not all there" after the war. Hardly surprising, though he did live for many years after his discharge in 1919.
As for James Shaw Howe, the description of him makes me think he looked like his father, my great grandfather, being 5'6" and over eleven stones, with a florid complexion. He proved to be an elusive character as far as Mrs Tulloch and her sister were concerned. She was persistent in her attempts to find him and I can only think that the authorities must have been heartily fed up with her letters!
On the last page of documents refering to James Shaw Howe, it says that a memorial plaque was sent to his mother, Mrs C Howe, in Aberdeen. That same plaque, treasured and highly polished, is in my mother's fireplace, along with a load of rather ordinary horse brasses. There are not many of her possessions which I covet but...............!
I should still like to find out more about Robert and Frederick's post war lives so if anyone out there knows anything, please get in touch. It seems my father's cousin was not right about Robert's occupation but I have discovered that he was actually in Melbourne in 1934.
Jen
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Hi
Death
HOWE Robert
Father Howe Clarence
Mother Cathr SHAW
Death Place PARKVILLE Age 47 1939
Reg # 12152
You can purchase death registration online and download immediately from
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/servlet/bdm_home
Will give you marriage details, cause of death, names of chn, where buried etc.
Cando
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Cando,
Thanks for the death record. Is this a site where I can pay for a one off certificate or do I have to buy a fixed number of units - which I may never need again!
Jen
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The following marriage reg is the only one for a Robert with no 2nd given name
HOWE Robert
SMITH Lily Ellen 1921 Reg# 8917
The birth records for Victoria only extend to 1920 on disk, so I am unable to help you with any possible births to this marriage.
Death for Lily
HOWE Lily Ellen
Father Smith Edward J
Mother Mary Jane PUCKETT
Death Place Heidelberg 71 years 1972
Re purchase of certificates - you pay for the actual registration which is $17.50. Follow instructions on site - Purchase and download.
Cando
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Do you have the following
HOWE Fredk Arth
Father Howe Clarence Saml Mother Catherine SHAW
Death Place DFORD [Could be Daylesford] Aged 36 1932 Reg# 1260
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks again! It would seem that this must be him, I wonder why my father's cousin thought she was called Betty. The name on the archive enlistment form is Mrs L. S. Howe, or at least that's what it looks like to me - I suppose it could be L. E. Or maybe she called herself Lily Smith Howe.
I find this faintly spooky, as a Howe by birth, with a mother who was a Smith!
I didn't have the official rcord for Frederick Arthur's death, so am very grateful for that too.
Jen
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From Australian Electoral Rolls
1924
HOWE Robert Taradale, Balcombe Road, Sandringham Occ Civil Servant
HOWE Lily Ellen Taradale, Balcombe Road, Sandringham Occ Home Duties
1931
HOWE Robert 93 Leopold Street, South Yarra Occ Civil Servant
HOWE Lily Ellen 93 Leopold Street, South Yarra Occ Home duties
1936
HOWE Robert 47 Park Street, Parkville Occ Civil Servant
HOWE Lily Ellen 47 Park Street, Parkville Home duties
Will see what else I can find.
Oh I read the service record - it is Mrs L E HOWE Widow and under you will see 3rd MT list and the date 1940 or 46.
May I ask where was Robert buried?
Cando
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The only electoral roll entry I could find for a Frederick Arthur HOWE was in 1931 living at 217 a'Beckett Street, West Melbourne, Occupation - Labourer.
cando
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This just gets better. I really didn't think I'd have any joy with these people so am absolutely delighted with what you have found. I haven't a clue where Robert was buried - haven't downloaded the death certificate yet as I am having to control my spending at the moment - genealogy can empty a purse pretty quickly, I find.
Robert seems to have moved about quite a bit. Are the addresses on the Electral Rolls very far apart or was he moving within a small area?
Jen
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The addresses are certainly some distance apart. The suburb of Parkville is north of the city centre, South Yarra, South East and Sandringham is a beach side suburb about 20 kms south east of the city.
Agree about genealogy can empty the purse quickly ;D
Cheers
Cando
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What an interesting thread. When looking at the naa record for James Shaw Howe, there were many letters from Mrs Tulloch & one letter from a Mrs Thomas, who lived next door to Mrs Tulloch. Perhaps my romantic mind got carried away, but I was wondering if James was a boarder with Mrs Thomas & met the sister of Mrs Tulloch etc etc. I found this marriage on the Vic BDMs
Wfred Louise MADDEN born Brisbane married Jno Wm Tulloch (B Oakney Island) 1910 5309
so perhaps Mrs W Madden is Winifred - but I have searched the Queensland BDMs and cannot find a birth record for her - so cannot at the minute track the sister.
Trish
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Just for you Trish -from the Electoral Rolls
1914
TULLOCH John William 144 Heath Street, Port Melbourne Occ Labourer
[Perhaps Winifred was too young to vote or hadn't enrolled]
1914
THOMAS Alexander 143 Heath Street, Port Melbourne Occ Labourer
THOMAS Louisa Elizabeth 143 Heath Street, Port Melbourne
1919
TULLOCH Winifred 144 Heath Street, Port Melbourne Occ Labourer [No husband enrolled at this address and no death for Jn Wm between 1914 and 1920 and no WW1 service record]
and
Birth
TULLOCH Robert
Father John Wm Mother Winifred Louise MADDEN
Birth Place PT MELB 1915
Reg#33305
Later Electoral Rolls records for Winifred show two more enrolments for Port Melbourne and then she moved to Mitcham in 1936 - no other Tullochs with her at any of the addresses.
Now Trish what do you think?
Cando
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And for Jen -
I received this response from the Melbourne General Cemetery
After a search of our records I was only able to locate Lily Ellen Howe our records show she was cremated on 03.03.1972 and her remains were scattered.
Have no record for Robert Howe
Cheers
cando
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Looks like he is at Fawkner but there are no details one has to enquire further?
http://www.fcmp.com.au/
Jenn
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Jenn I don't think either of the Robert HOWE's listed are this Robert HOWE. He died in 1939 aged 47 and the two listed are
HOWE Robert 21/05/1934 Aged 12
HOWE Robert 14/05/1930 Aged 64
Cando
Edit I see it he is not listed in the advanced search database. How do they expect us to find records :(
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by the standerd search he is the first in the lineup :D
HOWE Robert - 19/12/1939
Jenn
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So he was cremated and if you wish to know more you have to pay a fee - why not put it in the database if there is more info such as ashes removed or whatever. They have done this for other cremations.
From the website
Fawkner Crematorium & Memorial Park wishes to advise that the location of the cremated remains of the late Robert Howe aged 47 are not listed in the database.
More information may be available from a manual search of our archives (fee applies). Email enquiry[at]fcmp.com.au for further information.
cando
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yes Cando what more is there? a fee involved I wonder how much??
what do you think email needed?
Jenn
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I guess it wouldn't hurt but you will probably get a reply along the lines of a manual search is required and then probably to be told [after a fee is paid] his ashes were scattered or removed from the cemetery.
I have emailed the Daylesford Historical Society to see if Frederick Arthur is buried in the Daylesford Cemetery.
James and Robert's shipping record
HOWE James Age 22 MAR1911 THEMISTOCLES Port B Fiche 821 Page 019
HOWE Robert Aged 20 MAR 1911 THEMISTOCLES Port B Fiche 821 Page 019
and Frederick
HOWE F Aged 24 OCT 1910 ULIMAROA Port N Fiche 345 Pge 003
The Port B indicates British Port and Port N New Zealand
Cheers
Cando
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Just for you Trish -from the Electoral Rolls
1914
TULLOCH John William 144 Heath Street, Port Melbourne Occ Labourer
[Perhaps Winifred was too young to vote or hadn't enrolled]
1914
THOMAS Alexander 143 Heath Street, Port Melbourne Occ Labourer
THOMAS Louisa Elizabeth 143 Heath Street, Port Melbourne
1919
TULLOCH Winifred 144 Heath Street, Port Melbourne Occ Labourer [No husband enrolled at this address and no death for Jn Wm between 1914 and 1920 and no WW1 service record]
and
Birth
TULLOCH Robert
Father John Wm Mother Winifred Louise MADDEN
Birth Place PT MELB 1915
Reg#33305
Later Electoral Rolls records for Winifred show two more enrolments for Port Melbourne and then she moved to Mitcham in 1936 - no other Tullochs with her at any of the addresses.
Now Trish what do you think?
Cando
Hi Cando
Sorry, I had to go out - my next task was going to be to check the electoral roles ;D It seems quite likely that the Howes may not have enrolled to vote - being British they could enrol in those days - no citizenship required. I'm thinking if Mrs Thomas had a package for him - it may have been from his mother?
Now I will have to check if the Tullock family were divorced - probably not relevant, but it would be nice to find the sister. The war records are amazing - I have a letter written by my grandmother on my grandfather's record for WWI & researched one family where the sisters wrote for information because they didn't talk to the wife, who received all the "next of kin" information. ::) Watching WDYTYA last night, it was mentioned about the English WWI records being lost in the blitz - we are so very lucky to have this cotact with the past
Trish
Edit: The only possible death I see is for a Laura Isabel Winifred Tulloch, died 1981 aged 86 - no parents given (of course)
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This is an interesting birth in 1893 in Queensland
1893/B53645 MADDEN Laura Isabella
Father Unknown Mother Mary Alice MADDEN
Same person??
Cheers
cando
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I can see no further births to Mary Alice MADDEN or a marriage for that matter.
cando
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there is this death in Victoria
Alice Mary Madden died aged 74 in 1949 reg no 7170 at Froy
Father Madden Thos Mother Eliza HOCKING
regards Jenn
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This is an interesting birth in 1893 in Queensland
1893/B53645 MADDEN Laura Isabella
Father Unknown Mother Mary Alice MADDEN
Same person??
Cheers
cando
I didn't go back for another look at Qld after I found the death - I do wish one could put the CDs on the hard drive - going crazy changing CDs!! That looks very interesting Cando - I am intrigued
Trish
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My goodness me,
It was well past midnight here so I turned the computer off and went off to bed. this morning I get up to find that all this has been going on in my absence. It is going to take me a while to get my head round everything you have found on my behalf so may not reply for a while.
Just one thing I need to get clear - the letters were from Mrs W. Tulloch, on behalf of her sister, Miss Madden. So Winifred was a Madden before her marriage to John Tulloch. What we are looking for is an unmarried female Madden who has some connection to my James Howe.
As for the requests for money, I am wondering why James Howe owed money to Miss Madden - is it worth looking for Madden illegitimate births around 1911- 17. I know James's family background remember! His own mother, Catherine Shaw, married Clarence Howe when she was heavily pregnant at the age of sixteen. Did he go off to be killed leaving a disgraced Miss Madden behind him?
Thank you for all your work, I expect you are in bed now!
Jen
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No Jen not bed time here just yet.
found this death which indicates one child at least to Robert Howe
Betty Marjorie HOWE died at TECO in 1958 aged 36 reg no 21986
father Robert mother Lily Ellen SMITH
regards Jenn
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Yey! that explains the Betty mystery. I knew there was one somewhere along the line.
Sorry, I am rubbish at understanding time zones. Are you about twelve hours ahead of where we are here?
Jen
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at the moment it is 9.04 pm in Queensland so it is 10.04 in NSW and Victoria and Tasmanian
Jenn
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One of the letters to Mrs Tulloch, mentions also a S. L. Williams of the 5th Battalion (no 1196)
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=325876 - probably this Sydney Lory Williams? He and James Shaw Howe appear to have been in the same unit and embarked together:
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=144733
So perhaps they did both board in the Tulloch house at some point? Or somehow, at least, were connected and Winifred knew that - perhaps she was hoping that Sydney could give her some info on James...
Sydney was born in NZ but ended up in NSW and was still alive in 1967 (letter from him in WWI file). He may have married Marion E Taylor in NSW in 1921. He was awarded the Military Medal and DCM, and court-martialed but found not-guilty, looks like! There is nothing in his file about the Tullochs or Maddens, though... :(
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As for the requests for money, I am wondering why James Howe owed money to Miss Madden - is it worth looking for Madden illegitimate births around 1911- 17. I know James's family background remember! His own mother, Catherine Shaw, married Clarence Howe when she was heavily pregnant at the age of sixteen. Did he go off to be killed leaving a disgraced Miss Madden behind him?
Jen
Hi Jen
This was what I was thinking as well - but it seems to be near impossible to find a sister for Mrs Tulloch, which is why I kept checking what happened to her - BDM information. It was just that there were quite a few letters, the lady really wanted to get in touch him and kept trying and trying, despite no replies. Perhaps it should remain an unsolved mystery as to why she wanted to contact him
Trish
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I suspect it may well have to remain unsolved but at least I now know something of the fates of Robert, Frederick Arthur and James, so I am more than happy. Now I just have to work on Dora, Harry and Catherine, the rest of the siblings, who stayed in Scotland - or so I believe.
Many thanks,
Jen
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Alice Mary Madden died aged 74 in 1949 reg no 7170 at Froy
Father Madden Thos Mother Eliza HOCKING
This Alice Mary Madden never married or left Victoria. Alice ran a private hospital with her sister Lilian in Victoria.