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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: gaynor50 on Friday 28 March 08 11:22 GMT (UK)
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Lookup marriage of James Longman Gawler to Ann ?
Lookup if James L Gawler and Ann ? had any children
James Longman Gawler was a parish clerk that often witnessed marriages so he does appear a lot on the parish records online. He was married twice.
James was born Abt 1788 in Tooting,Surrey,England and was parish clerk in Lambeth,Gr London,Surrey and he died at the age of 78 years in Sep 1866. He married his second wife when he was about 61 years of age and had 5 children!! :o
1st wife - Ann Keen who died in I think in 1847. (They are listed in a Census for 1841)
2nd wife - Caroline C L Miller
In a census for 1851 it has a mother in law living with James L Gawler and wife Caroline C L
Martha C M Kiven born abt 1801 in Hoke Mington Middlesex England - Mother in law
In a census for 1871 it has Martha C name as Rovere? and is listed as Caroline's mother so I am totally confused with the correct surname.
I was thinking it was perhaps Ann Kiven not Keen or vise versa (with a naming error)
OR was Caroline C L Miller nee Kiven?
HELP ??? ::)
Gaynor50
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Hi Gaynor,
I've looked on the Surrey Marriage Index & the dates you need for his first marriage are not covered in Lambeth & it doesn't appear anywhere else in Surrey either.
Checked Pallot's Marriage Index 1780-1837 & no Gawler marriage there either.
Just a thought but Caroline might have been a widow when she married James so her mothers name would not be the same as hers.
jane
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Just looked at the IGI & there are two baptisms attributed to a James & Ann Gawler;
Ann 13/5/1819 St. Mary Lambeth. Extracted
Maria 8/1/1830 ditto. Batch no. 1016582
A marriage would have taken place prior to 1819 which narrows it down a bit. As James was a Parish Clerk it would make sense that family events took place in the same church, most likely St. Mary's?
FreeBMD gives a death for Ann Gawler 1844 in Lambeth
FreeBMD has the marriage of Caroline Catherine Lydia Miller to James Gawler, Lambeth (4 393) Q3 1849
Another thought might be that her mother, Martha, remarried. I had a look at the 1861, 1871 & 1881 censuses & it's very difficult to read. I tried to find them (Martha & Caroline ) in 1841 but no luck :( Tried to find the death of Martha but proves difficult as we can't decipher her surname. Caroline & the family are in West Ham, Essex in 1881 so I presume that's where Martha dies.
:o Saw that there's a 36 year age gap between James & Caroline :o
jane
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Was your James Longman Gawler a herbalist on the side? Found this reference;
http://herbariaunited.org/collector/10878/
jane
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Hi Jane
Thank you for your work. All the possibilies with that surname are endless because of it's spelling twice - different on both census's.
If Caroline Miller was a previous marriage it's a bit unusual to name her children's middle names after her other husband surname.
If her mother was married to a Miller and then remarried to one of the surnames placed in the census what is the right spelling?
I know this is going to drive me nuts.
I will put down that he was involved as a herbalist at some stage. His father William Gawler wrote organ music for the Lambeth Church.
Love your new little twiglet - reminds me I need a hug. Wish my my big twiglets made me some grandchildren.
This is not an easy one - even if the Gawlers were quite prominent back then.
Thank you
Gaynor50 ;)
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If Caroline Miller was a previous marriage it's a bit unusual to name her children's middle names after her other husband surname.
You've lost me on this one, Gaynor...please elaborate :-\
Her mothers name on the census looks like Roven/Raven. Could it possibly be a foreign name?
I'll try to spend a bit more time on this today but it definately looks as if her mother remarried.
Grandchildren are the best ;D Hope you have lots of them ;D
jane
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Deaths Sep 1890
DE KOVEN Martha Caroline 89 W. Ham 4a 59
The surname given on the 1881 census
Martha Caroline Miller widow
Kenneth Alex? de Koven
1829
St Luke Chelsea
by licence
Regards
Valda
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Ohhh nice one Valda...go to the top of the class ;D I was convinced that first letter was an 'R'
jane
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Only other early instance of the surname in the GRO
Deaths Dec 1843
DE KOVEN Joan Elizabeth Marylebone 1 167
Regards
Valda
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I'm just checking the 1851 census. Couldn't find a marriage for Martha on FreeBMD but perhaps that occurred pre-1837 :-\
jane
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Sorry Jane I added the de Koven marriage to my first post. I didn't think anyone on the thread was online so I just slipped it into the post rather than put another message on. I thought that was probably all I was going to be able find and then I turned up the Marylebone death afterwards.
Regards
Valda
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Hey you are both so great!!!
I'll say good one - to you both. It's much appreciated I can tell you.
I only bother rootschatters when I've come to the end of my guessing and checking and I do appreciate your help.
Your wonderful
Gaynor50
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We're still hot on the trail. Gaynor ;D Of course there's a possibility that Martha C. had multiple marriages :o She's not showing on the 1851 census even when I take out the surname. Her dob & place of birth are pretty consistant throughout the censuses as being 1801, Stoke Newington, Middlesex.
Onwards & upwards,
jane
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Ahh, yes I did miss the marriage Valda...extra brownie points ;D
Now, brownie points for me ;) FreeBMD - death Kenneth Alexander De Kovens Q2 1865, Kensington (1a 82)
Theoretically we should be able to find Kenneth & Martha De Koven (s) on the 1841, 1851 & 1861 censuses..... no luck I'm afraid ::) Even went north of the border to Scotland as I thought Kenneth sounded a bit Scottish :-\
However, although not relevant at the moment, this might be worth putting on the back burner;
The IGI gave the baptism (extracted) of a Martha Carolina WEST born 4/12/1800, baptised 14/1/1801, Stoke Kewington (I'll take that as Newington) d/o John & Elizabeth
Gaynor, I did spot a couple of people on Ancestry researching James Longman Gawler, so if you don't have a sub I'd be willing to contact them & get you together :D (genealogical match making)
jane
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Hi Jane
That would be great to link up. This is my direct line branch by marriage but I have a direct line descendant to him in Australia that I'm helping on this section.
Sorry for the time of reply as I think I'm sleeping in Australia while your working on this. While you have been helping me I have been working and completed some work for some enquiries on Ancestry with my work.
It's nice for me to receive some help and I really appreciate your effort. :)
Gaynor50
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The Times, Thursday Aug 28, 1890 - Deaths
On the 23d, at 26 Knox-road, Forest-gate, MARTHA CAROLINE, widow of MAJOR ALEXDR. KENNETH de KOVEN, and relict of the late William Miller, Esq., aged 89.
Ian C
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The de KOVEN lot may have been American as there are a couple of marriages in London in the 1880s for sons of a Henry de KOVEN of Newport, Rhode Island - from The Times.
Ian C
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From The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, May 26, 1865
Deaths
At London, in Ovington Square, Brompton, on the 20th inst., aged 61, the Baron Kenneth Alexander De Koven.
Ian C
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1851 census HO107 2473 folio 73
Picton Place Carmarthen Carmathenshire Wales
Kenneth A Dekoven 41 Head Married Deputy Chief Constable Lymington Hampshire
Martha C Dekoven 42 Wife Married Stoke Middlesex
plus 1 house servant
1841 census HO107 1209/5c folio 37
Tything Street Worcester
Kenneth Kover 30 Army not born in the county
Martha Kover 30 Ind. not born in the county
It would be worth looking for wills for Kenneth and Martha.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/civil/probate/index.htm
Regards
Valda
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Ahhh, you're brilliant, Valda ;D Gaynor will be so pleased when she see's that!
So, Caroline's father was William Miller.
So, we need to find a 17 year old Caroline in 1841. I had trouble last night finding Caroline in 1891 & 1901 :(
jane
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Hi
Ann Keen is on my hitlist, I'm directly descended from her father Stephen Keen. Have a portrait of him dated 1827, three years before he died.
I think we need to compare notes :-)
Moderator comment: e-mail address removed to prevent spamming and other abuse. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. Thank you!
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Hi Kevin & welcome to Rootschat :)
How wonderful you've made a connection & I'm dead jealous you have a portrait of an ancestor dated 1827!!!
Kevin, for your protection, it's not wise to put your email address on a post. You can remove it by clicking on the 'modify' button, delete the address then click 'save'.
If you want to contact someone just send them a personal message & include your email address if you want...much safer :)
jane
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Hi Guys,
I hope this works, I 've never posted on this, or any other forum before but I was so excited by the thought that there is a photo of Stephen Keen out there somewhere that I just had to register and hopefully get in touch with the fellow relatives.
Stephen Keen I believe is my 5th Great Grandfather, through his son Edward and so on. Have only just started researching this part of the family, having located Edward's will on the National Archives a few weeks ago and then Stephen's last weekend. So much fun reading those and trying to decipher the writing!
Anyway, I hope to get in touch somehow soon.
Wayne & Michelle
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Stephen Keen's will is a nightmare to read. My Aunt has transcribed it, but it's not typed up yet.
So we have a common ancestor, and I do have quite a lot of info to pass on. The Keen's I have no way finished, so we need to compare notes now before duplicating all that effort.
Please contact me via (*), and we can take it from there. If you can send over a GedCom that would help - I could have saved you the price of his wills as well, but never mind !
I do have his portrait painting, dated 1827.
Look forward to hearing from you !
k
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