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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Hanan on Tuesday 25 March 08 13:01 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if you Roots-chatters could advise me on a search, I am doing for a family member who died during the First World War. If anyone has any helpful suggestions as to how we may be able to progress our search, or advice on what the most common regiments were for people living in Ayrshire area to sign up for would be wonderful.
I am looking for James (Jimmy) Holmes who was taken in (possibly adopted) by my g grandmother Wilhelmina McIntyre early 1900. He worked in the shipyards at Ardrossan before signing up and going to war. Here is what else I have on him.
BORN: the Glasgow area. (Date unknown)
ADDRESS AT THE TIME OF ENLISTMENT: care of Mrs McIntyre, Harbour Place, Ardrossan.
AGE AT DEATH: 19
NOTIFICATION OF DEATH WAS SENT TO: John & Wilhelmina McIntyre in Ardrossan
As you can see, we do not have a lot to go on. With this little information, am I ever likely to find out where he was killed and buried? I know many soldiers died unknown but when a telegram is sent, doesn’t that mean he was known to be dead?
Thank you
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The telegram would have been sent to person he listed to be notified in case of injury, death, etc. Does it actually say killed or is it missing presumed killed?
CWGC website lists 207 'J. Holmes' kiled in WWI (www.cwgc.org).
Any more information like service number, regiment, date (even date of telegram)? If he was killed the date of telegram and date of death would be helpful.
The more information you post the quicker someone will be able to look in places like Soldiers Died in the Great War.
Local newspapers often had articles (sometimes a special column) for service people- visiting home, wounded, missing, etc.
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Hi aghadowey,
I do not have a date or anything for the telegram, it was destroyed. I know my g-grandmother was offered a monetary compensation because of his death (she refused it, so no paperwork for that either).
I have no idea of his service number, regiment or date of death this is what is making my search so difficult. I am wondering if anyone could advise me as to what the most common regiments were for people living in Ayrshire. Was it the done thing that all the people in the one area signed up to the same regiments?
I've tried the CWGC who were very helpful but they couldn’t find any J Holmes with McIntyre’s listed as next of kin.
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http://www.snwm.org/cgi-bin/db_w1.pl
This may help get the number down...From SNWM.
Theres also a Scottish War Memorials Discussion Forum that may be able to help.
Ady
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http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot.html
Heres the other link.
Ady
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Thanks for those websites. I've registered with War Memorials, waiting for them to get back to me.
The SNWM website does seem to give me more info on some of the soldiers that CWGC doesn't, so that's useful - thanks :). It will help get the number down, I'll compare them.
In you Rootchatters expert opinions do you all think I'll find Jimmy with the little information I have? Should I keep at my search?
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It may take a wee while but local papers have been my best source as well as the help from forums like this...stick with it. ;)
Ady
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Hi H
Have you considered, he may have used the name McIntyre?
Howard
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Hi :)
I've been pondering over your James. Assuming he went under the name of Holmes there seemed to be 3 possibiles on SDGW, with one discounted as his parent's address was Barrhead on CWGC.
The other two that I could see are:
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Hi again
Perhaps the first one Regimental number 9043 is more likely as the second James claims to reside in Townhead, Glasgow. :-\
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Hi all,
We have considered the possibility of him enlisting as a McIntyre. Also the possibility he lied about his age as I know a large number of boy’s did so in WW1.
I’ve checked the local Ardrossan paper listings on ayrshire-roots (it was a few months back) there wasn’t any Holmes or McItyres that seemed to match, only William’s. I’ll have a look again in case there have been more added.
I checked the Ardrossan War Memorial and strangely he isn’t listed on it. I’m thinking he might have been listed on one in Glasgow, where he was born. Annoyingly I don’t know exactly where in Glasgow he came from.
There are a few J Holmes I find myself drawn to and funnily one of them is the one you mentioned atom. I also find lots of these James Holmes from the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), maybe it’s a sign ha-ha. I’ll see if I can find an age for 9043.
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It may take a wee while but local papers have been my best source as well as the help from forums like this...stick with it. ;)
Ady
Thanks for the advice Ady I will stick with it. I’ll think positive and aim to one day find his grave!
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I checked the Ardrossan War Memorial and strangely he isn’t listed on it. I’m thinking he might have been listed on one in Glasgow, where he was born. Annoyingly I don’t know exactly where in Glasgow he came from.
Have just finished doing research on World War I soldiers on local war memorials and found a surprising number that were killed were not listed as killed or served, some listed as served but died in hospital of wounds, etc.
Another great source to try is a Roll of Honour in local churches and schools he or the McIntyre family had any connection to in Ardrossan. Often they show which soldiers were killed, wounded or missing and also their rank and regiment.
Is this the site you checked already?:
www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sctayr/herald.html
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Hi aghadowey,
I'll try the Ardrossan schools and Churches - thanks for the tip.
The website I'd searched was www.ayrshire-roots.co.uk I've had a look at www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sctayr/herald.html no James Holmes or James McIntyres :'( lots from Harbour Place though - very sad.
Gives me an idea of what regiments people in that area signed up for.
Thanks
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I concur with the first choice posted by atom12. You can discount the other - he was 34 when he died.
On findmypast 'Soldiers died in the Great War' I did a search of all Holmes born Glasgow/Lanarkshire and this James leapt out. No residence is given for him. It's quite feasible that your Jimmy may have gone to Glasgow to enlist.
Hope you are able to establish the age of James who died at Gallipoli 28/6/1915 (noted Helles Memorial). Good Luck.
Annette
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Hi
Looks like Annette and myself are getting similar instincts on this one, though I have not checked out the McIntyre name.
It would be good if you could establish some more proof of your soldier. Or, as Annette suggests have some idea of his age, or, for you to see something that might spark a bit of recall that you are on the right track.
Here's 9043 James Holmes medal card at TNA, which I could not find on Ancestry:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0332/
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I have contacted CWGC regarding our Gallipoli soldier and they do not have any details on this. I'll see if the Cameronians themselves can help me with this.
One other area I am wondering might help is; I know James was 14 when my granny took him in. He got a job in the shipyards at Ardrossan. Does anyone know of a website or somewhere I could contact to see if they have any records on him that might help me establish a place or date of birth or any other info for James.
Thanks again for all the help.
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So many men worked in Glasgow area shipyards that it probably won't be possible to trace him that way.
Waht about 1901 census? If you can find him there it will narrow down his age.
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I've tried the 1901 census, can't narrow it down to him.
James worked in the Ardrossan Shipyard prior to signing up, not sure how many people they employed but I'm hoping not too many Holmes.
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I am still trying to find Jimmy, a search I began 30 years ago on behalf of my aunt (his adoptive sister) who is sadly no longer here.
Thankfully I feel i am getting closer.
I have found him living with my family on the 1911 census age 16 living in Springburn working for North British Railway as an apprentice boilermaker.
Through this information I found him listed as private J Holmes app boilermaker on waverley Station war memorial - a very emotional day. Particularly as I know my aunt traveled through waverly station regularly.
Using this information I have been able to discount many 'Holmes' from CWGC site... too old or wrong rank.
Can anyone suggest where I go from here?
Was there a particular regiment people from Springburn or boilermakers signed up to?
There is one Private J Holmes who seems to keep popping up 9043, Cameronians but I haven’t found anything that ties him to my Jimmy Holmes – yet.
Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated.
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Did James have a Sister Barbara?
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I have no details on the Holmes family. He was taken in and (according to family legend) adopted by my g-grandparents.
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Thought so
So you can rule out 9043
His Army Pay Arrrears was paid to his Sister Mrs Barbara Logan on 22 May 1917
Followed by a War Gratuity to her on 7 August 1919
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hmm that wouldn't really fit my James. Shame
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So you have No Proof/Evidence that he Ever Served in the Forces in WW1 or Died in Service
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Hi aghadowey,
I do not have a date or anything for the telegram, it was destroyed. I know my g-grandmother was offered a monetary compensation because of his death (she refused it, so no paperwork for that either).
I have no idea of his service number, regiment or date of death this is what is making my search so difficult. I am wondering if anyone could advise me as to what the most common regiments were for people living in Ayrshire. Was it the done thing that all the people in the one area signed up to the same regiments?
I've tried the CWGC who were very helpful but they couldn’t find any J Holmes with McIntyre’s listed as next of kin.
Although the Family Story was the Army Dependents Pension was Refused -
However the FACT is :-
There would be Army Pay Arrears Unpaid and Unclaimed on Soldiers Effects Record
I have been through all the 56 Holmes in WW1
and they were All Paid
mostly to Widows and Mother's
- None Unclaimed for James Holmes
Further Evidence that he Ever Enlisted
or Died in Service
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The first World War had Battalions known as PALS. the intention being that men and boys would sign up to serve their country with their Pals (friends/mates).
It could be that your man could have been recruited into one of the three Glasgow Pals regiments.
https://www.firstworldwarglasgow.co.uk/index.aspx?articleid=11921
Any money/wages owed to a deceased soldier was sent to his family
BTW I found that due to losses in the army, some regiments were disbanded and the remnants were often amalgamated with other regiments which meant that soldiers numbers changed.
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My aunt (his adoptive sister) told me he lived with her family in Glasgow and moved with them to Ardrossan before going off to war and died aged 19. She recalled her mother getting a telegram but never knew where he died or was commemorated.
As I say I have been searching for him since she asked to look on her behalf. I have listed everything I have.
Could it be that his money was in fact passed to his sister after my g-grandmother refused?
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http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic742-0-asc-0.html
Anything on this site that can help ?
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To assist with your consideration/elimination of James Holmes 9043 Scots Rifles. His pension card gives his dependant i.e sister, Barbara Logan at 187 Castle Street, Townhead, Glasgow.
What is the 1911 census address that you have for your Jimmy Holmes please? And your great grandmother name [the relative who refused the payment.
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If 9043 is the Brother of Mrs Barbara Logan she would have stated Step Sister not Declared Sister
We were informed he was taken in your Relative and Not his Sister
So unlikely that's him.
360585 James Holmes of the Labour Corps was previously 290998 of the Cameroonians Scottish Rifles
He was Killed in Egypt 15 September 1918
But his Army Pay and War Gratuity went to his Widow Frances
So that's another to Rule Out
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Although no Enlistment under James Holmes can be found.
You presumably have his Records on 1911 and 1901 Census with your Relative?
What was his Occupation and Age shown ?
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James is on the 1911 Census living with my g-grandparents John and Williamina McIntyre
9 Craigton Terrace, Springburn
Occupation was Apprentice Boilermaker for North British Railway
age 16
born Lanarkshire, Glasgow
Not far from Townhead, Glasgow
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The North British Railway war memorial at Waverly Station lists James as
Holmes, J Boilermaker PTE.
He was also remembered at St Paul's Cathedral Service 1919
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http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic742-0-asc-0.html
Anything on this site that can help ?
Thanks mmm45 it was through that site I found James at Waverley Station, it HAS to be the same James who lived with my g-grandparents.
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I wonder if his apprenticeship records may have survived. This link to NRM gives some advice that may help.
https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/research-and-archivefurther-resources/family-history
It mentions rolls of honour for those employees lost in WW1, I wonder whether James appears on these perhaps with additional information.
Pinetree
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I wonder if his apprenticeship records may have survived. This link to NRM gives some advice that may help.
https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/research-and-archivefurther-resources/family-history
Pinetree
Thanks. Good idea.
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http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic742-0-asc-0.html
Anything on this site that can help ?
Thanks mmm45 it was through that site I found James at Waverley Station, it HAS to be the same James who lived with my g-grandparents.
Even if it is Him is the Army and in an Occupation Exempted
Doesn't mean he ever Went Overseas
So he wouldn't have been awarded any Medals and therefore no Medal Index Card
However if he Died in the UK therefore there will be a GRO Death Index for him and he'd be Buried in the UK
If he Died in Service he would be entitled to a CWGC Military Headstone
In which case he'd be listed on the CWGC Website
I just entered J Holmes
Got 11 Pages
None Fit
So Doesn't Explain Death you found ?
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See update to my post re rolls of honour.
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He is included in the railway museum roll of honour
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Great find from Pinetree idea
But not alot of Help more not even Date
He should be listed here ::-
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/first-world-war/register-house-roll-of-honour-1914-1918#Roll%20of%20staff%20who%20served
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ALAMO2008
If James didn't serve in the war why would be be on the North British Railway Roll of honour?
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ALAMO2008
If James didn't serve in the war why would be be on the North British Railway Roll of honour?
Where did I say he didn't Serve?
I said it looks like he never went Fighting Overseas
Which is why there is no Medals Index Card for him.
Not All Soldiers in the Army went Fighting Overseas
Which I explained Why he is Listed on the Roll
But it doesn't say he Died Overseas
He would still be entitled to that Honour dying in UK
As my Granddad did second time around dying in a POW Camp in 1943
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Well Hanan, I must say this is an intriguing case. One thing that I am curious about is the likelihood that he did not die overseas.
If he died in the U.K. from a non combat related cause, would he have had a normal funeral? Would there be a death certificate? In such cases I am wondering what the correct military procedure would be.
Could the CWGC, Imperial War Museum or National Army Museum be of any assistance here?
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Well Hanan, I must say this is an intriguing case. One thing that I am curious about is the likelihood that he did not die overseas.
If he died in the U.K. from a non combat related cause, would he have had a normal funeral? Would there be a death certificate? In such cases I am wondering what the correct military procedure would be.
Could the CWGC, Imperial War Museum or National Army Museum be of any assistance here?
How?
Did I not explain above that I reviewed the 11 pages of the CWGC site
How could they explain why his Burial is not Recorded in their Records?
His Cessation of his Army Pay are not shown now on Soldiers Effects page either.
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My question refers to fatality reporting procedures. What were they? For a death in the U.K. would the procedures require some info for families other than he is dead.
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What Family ? He was taken in,
You are Assuming all Soldiers that Signed Up
gave Next of Kin details to the Army (It was not a Condition of Enlistment)
and Enlisted with Permission from the Family to Enlist
and even gave the Right Age
or Right Name
I have Researched Hundreds like that Scenario
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O.K. calm down. Nobody is trying to bruise your ego. The term family by the way can have a very broad meaning.
My approach is that all the usual methods have failed, so I am willing to try looking elsewhere. If nothing else I may learn something. That is primarily why I am here.
Oh and by the way. I assume nothing. Don't jump to silly conclusions.
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Could he have enlisted under McIntyre ?
I've had lads that I've researched enlisting with a different name sometimes a step fathers or Grandparents
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Great Suggestion mmm45 !!
Just went through the 11 pages on CWGC site
Lots of James McIntyre and J McIntyre
But many left No Next of Kin to confirm who they were.
The J - ones could be John as the Medal Card revealed on some
The Unknown James cases will remain Unknown
But doesn't explain how the Army contacted the Relative unless her details were Next of Kin
If he Died after Discharged during the War
And Death could have been Non War Related
in which case he would Not be entitled to a CWGC Headstone hence not on their Records
However if he Died before 31 August 1921 he would qualify to be Listed on any War Memorial
If we consider he Served but didn't go Overseas the Death Indexes 1914 to 1921 might show a James Holmes dying in Scotland though we have no proof he Served in a Scottish Regt or Served only in Scotland
If he joined after 1916 he could be in Any British Regiment and Died Anywhere under any Name
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Hanan, have you looked at all of the Service Returns deaths on SP to cross check them with soldiers that you think can be eliminated? There are six James HOLMES that I can see 1915-1919 - three within his age range, and three that have no age listed.
Debra :)