RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Fue on Saturday 22 March 08 21:54 GMT (UK)
-
I am trying to find the Marriage of my ggrandfather Williams Charles WILLIAMS
to Norah (late FORD nee HEARN). John FORD (his best friend) died 1872 in Cardiff and 1st
child was born in Rumney 1873 so I am presuming a marriage took place locally, 1872-3.
The marriage is not recorded on Free BMD or LDS websites.
The only info I have found on my ggrandfather is on the 1881 Welsh census.
As I live too far to research locally, if anyone could help or give advice where to look
next, I would be most grateful.
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat
My first thought was - could the child b 1873 have been John Ford's. I don't know when John died in in 1872 relation to when that child was born. Could Norah have been pregnant at the time John died?
That would then put the marriage to your great grandfather later than 1873
Could you post the full 1881 entry please so we can have a look at birthyears/places etc and perhaps work things out from that info for you
-
Hi again
According to freebmd - John Ford was 33 when he died in the June qtr of 1872 so his birth year was approx 1838/39
The 1871 for Glamorgan only has one John Ford b 1839 and his wife was Mary Ann aged 35 not Norah
John Ford 32
Mary Ann 35
John William 8
Mary Ann 6
Catherine 5
Sarah Jane 3
Henry 11 months
-
There is an 1867 marriage of HONORAH Hearn but not to John Ford
-
Hi Carole
Many thanks for your interest;
John Ford died 19.06.1872 and 1st child - Harry was born 13.10.1883 so the child was
William Charles Williams's.
Details of 1881 Census are as follows:-
Civil Parish Rumney born
add: Greenway Fach William Williams Head 56 Market Gardener Worcester
Norah " Wife 46 Gardeners Wife Devon Torrington
John Ford Stepson 12 Scholar " "
Harry F Son 8 " Glamorgan Cardiff
David F Son 6 " " "
Eliz F Dau 4 " Monmouth Rumney
Frances F Dau 2 " "
Norah F Dau 3 months " "
As you can see, there is a John Ford Junior.
All children of William and Norah were given the middle name 'Ford' I am assuming in honour of the deceased John Ford. John Ford
died when he was crushed in a railway accident.
William (C) Williams's age is suspect as I have his death certificate in 1894 at age 74 which
makes his birth date to be around 1820.
William Charles Williams has proved to be extremely elusive, as I say, the only info I
have apart from the childrens birth certs is the 1881 census. I have spent 2 years and
many visits to the Worcester Records Office, to no avail. I think the only thing that keeps
me looking is an old family story which is that his father was a Judge (I think Justice of
the Peace) and that he died after choking on a cigar whilst jumping a 5 bar gate! How
interesting is that???
I really hope you can help because I am sort of pulling my hair out with this.
Thanks
-
Hi again
Sorry its a bit late, after reading my last post, it may not be clear what I am trying to find.
The 1881 census is the first bit of info I have on my GGrandfather William Charles Williams. Before this date and for the first 60 years of his life, I have absolutely nothing. So I thought if I could find his marriage to Norah, I could find the name of his father and maybe then be able to work backwards.
Thanks for your time
Sue
-
Hi Sue - most of this you may already have and unfortunately - it doesn't help find their marriage (at the moment)
In 1891 the children are alone
Harry Williams 17 b Cardiff - market gardner
Frances 13 sister b Rumney
George 7 brother b Rumney
John Ford jnr is in lodgings in Rumney
With a surname like Williams, birthyears are important and I reckon William's is suspect. His death reg gives approx 1820 but looking at the 1881 image - William is 50 and Norah is 40.
The 1871 shows Norah b 1848 so she should only have been 33 in 1881. Women tended to knock years off their age - not add them on.
John Ford and Nora (no H) Hearn were married Sept qtr 1867 in Torrington
I wonder if the middle name of Ford was given because the parents never married rather than as a token of respect to John Ford
I have checked the full GRO index between the June qtr 1872 when John Ford died - up to the end of 1873 and there is no Nora Ford marriage in Wales
-
Hi Carole,
Many thanks for that info, I had some of it but not all.
As to Norah's age, I did read somewhere that if the husband was a lot older then the wife's age was adjusted so as not to show such a great age difference. As to them not being married, that is very interesting, did this sort of thing happen a lot then - do you know?
I agree that the birth year is important and I cannot even trust 100% the age on the death certificate because I understand it is sometimes best guess.
A bit of a 'brick wall' don't you think?
-
Hi
There were a number of people shown as married who weren't.
William may have been married and left his wife to live with Nora after she was widowed - just a theory
Whilst doing my friends FH - we found that her grandparents only married 26 years after their first child was born. Both were single and free to marry but there were religious differences
Because of the uncertainty re: his true birthyear, it's difficult to pinpoint William on earlier censuses as there are a lot of William Williams b Worcester. We also don't know when he moved to Wales. I have downloaded the 1871 Welsh images for all William Williams b Worcester but there are none with an occupation of gardener
Unfortunately - it is proving to be a bit of the proverbial BW
-
Hi Carole
Yes it is going to be very difficult, but many thanks for your help and interest, I have certainly learned something anyway.
All the best
Sue :)
-
Hi, I have stumbled across your old requests looking for information about William Charles Williams and norah hearn/Ford/Williams/tugwell. They are my G G G grandparents and I have struggled for many years to find any information about them. I do have a few bits maybe we can swap stories and see where that leads us
-
Hi Emrah
Excited to read your post! I am away from my research notes at the moment but will contact you as soon as I get back.
WCW has been a definate brick wall so it would be good to exchange any info.
Sue
-
Hi Emmrah
Back again on line so ready to exchange info....
I have re-read this thread (as it has been at least 5 years since I put my research to one side) and it does give most of the info I have on WCW. Although I have been unable to break the brick wall, I have since found the baptism records of WCW's children (one of which - George Ford Williams was my grandfather) which were all recorded without the 'Ford' middle name. So I think this agrees with Carol W's posts that William and Norah were not married and kept this a secret. Maybe they never did get married.
Where do you come into the tree?
I do have lots of paperwork on the family which I am happy to compare/share but I do believe that you need at least 3 posts before I can pm you.
-
Hi Sue, I have been chasing the trail of WCW and his descendants on and off for many years so its great to find you. My family line comes down from Norah and William's second son David Ford Williams(1875). I am also in touch with decendants of their youngest son Thomas Williams(1892) and have heard from the family of Norah Ford Williams(1881). I actually stumbled across a newspaper report about the death of WCW this nudged me to pick up my research again which was when i found you. I'm not sure what I have that you might not. I have a few different certificates relating to the Williams including the death certificates of WCW and Norah Tugwell but the same as you no trace of the marriage certificate.
-
Hi Emmrah
I do not have the newspaper report of WCW's death so that would be good to see :) I think I too am in contact with Thomas Williams' descendant who has been very helpful.
I'm afraid it won't take too long to compare notes because apart from the 1881 Census, various birth certificates and bits of info, I don't have much. However, you never know ::)
Do you have WCW on any censuses other than 1881?
On this census his place of birth was given as Worcester. I have made quite a few trips to Worcester Family History Center and have found no links at all. There were thankfully not many Williams families but I could not make the connection. Maybe clutching at straws (as you do with a brick wall)
if you look at the transcriber's handwriting on the 1881 census, the place name 'Worcester' under 'Where born' is larger than all the other handwriting, so I think it was entered later and I think could have been 'Gloucester'! I did find a WCW born Gloucester but dont' have the details and I cannot remember it being a breakthrough so maybe the dates were not any good.