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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: caroline hammill on Thursday 13 January 05 10:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi, im trying to find Cornelius George Lawrence b1848, Cheltenham.
I have found his Birth and his Marraige details.......but thats as far as my searching has got for him. I cannot find him on the 1851 census.
Thank you, CAZ
;DSEE FURTHER DOWN THREAD FOR THE UPDATE :)
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Hi Caz
This is a case of names being changed and proved quite tricky! It sounds as though you have access to Ancestry, so should be able to follow these up:
Cornelius George LAWRENCE birth Sep 1847 Cheltenham 11 194
Marriage 1869 Cheltenham 6a 678 to Sarah Ann COMPTON
1871 RG10/2668 Cheltenham
LAWRENCE Cornelius George 23 born Cheltenham
Sarah Ann wife 23 born ditto
George Harry son 1 born ditto
1881 not found (yet!)
1891 RG12/2045
LAURANCE George 43 born Cheltenham
Sarah Ann 43
and Harry, Lottie, Louisa, Ernest, Lizzie, Edward
1901 RG13/2460 ED 2 F24 P3
LAWRENCE Harry born Cheltenham
Emma born Coleford
Ernest brother 20
Lizzie sister 17
& Harry's children
Possible death of Sarah Ann in 1899 (Cheltenham Sep 6a 292 aged 53) might help explain the siblings being with Harry.
Have done this in a bit of a ruch and apologise for incomplete references. Let me know if you have trouble finding them again!
Arranroots
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Hi, thanx again Arranroots, Most of that info i already had, apart from the 1901 census, that is the death for sarah and i think i have another marraige for Cornelius a few years after sarah died, cant remember her first name but the surname was Pearce.
I have trawled through the 40 place entries for Gloucestershire on the "rootsweb.com~cots", needless to say it took me a few days to go through the couple of thousand names. I did however, come acros a Cornelius George Lawrence, right age but with a family called DERRETT, mother was put down as widow on this census, and she was also born Charlton Kings, where Cornelius was from.
This was the only Cornelius George Lawrence on this entire census, i am however waiting for his Birth Certificate to turn up, Dispatch date was given as 12 Jan.
But even with the fathers name (when i get the cert) it dont explain why he's not on the 1851 census (with LAWRENCE as his surname).
Any ideas on how to solve this one. Im new to all of this so not too clever on knowing how to solve certain family mysteries.
Thanx, Caz
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Here's Cornelius in 1881 (note spelling)
RG11/2572 ED22 F79 P12
2 Baker Street, Cheltenham
Cornelias G LAWRENCE 33 Stoker in gas works
Sarah Ann 33
George H 11
Sarah L 6
Louisa A 3
Edwin F 1
I wonder if Sarah L is the Lottie from 1891? I also wonder what happened to Edward (1891 census) by 1901?
Having trouble with this posting, so stopping to refuel with lunch!!
Arranroots
Have just seen your posting and sorry I was confused about what you were looking for. Have you tried changes of name and spellings, as that seems to be a common factor in all this?? Incidentally Charlton Kings is not quite the same as Cheltenham, even though they are now merged - searches on one won't necessarily produce the other.
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Hi Arranroots, Edward for the 1901 census was with a sister and her husband " Louisa Anna Lawrence + Joseph Millard.
I checked every name on the other website (rootsweb.com~cots), You dont have no choice but to, unfortunately, the only explanation i could come with was : Cornelius's dad died before the 1851 census was taken and for some reason the mother may have gone to her maiden name DERRETT, long shot i know but cant think of any other option.
Im from Cheltenham and so is most of my family, and they still live there,(im now in Bedworth, Warwickshire), so i understand what you say about Charlton Kings, on Freebmd it just says place of birth CHELTENHAM, but my nan + grandad's families lived and came from Charlton Kings (well most of them) and this is why on the 1851 census i wondered if i had the right Cornelius , just the surname is a bit confusing.
Hope all the above makes sense, i know what im trying to say, it's just putting it down in text form and making sense.
CAZ
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Just had a look through all of my notes and i couldnt find them on the 1881 census either, in fact , checking census years for the one's i have found, there is'nt a 1881 census for none of the Lawrence families i have, my nan's maiden name was also Lawrence before she married a Lawrence, (not related before marraige either, i did ask)
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Hi, im trying to find Cornelius George Lawrence b1848, Cheltenham.
I have found his Birth and his Marraige details.......but thats as far as my searching has got for him. I cannot find him on the 1851 census.
Thank you, CAZ
I have trawled through the 40 place entries for Gloucestershire on the "rootsweb.com~cots", needless to say it took me a few days to go through the couple of thousand names. I did however, come acros a Cornelius George , right age but with a family called DERRETT, mother CHARLOTTE DERRETT was put down as widow on this census, and she was also born Charlton Kings, where Cornelius was from. Also on the same family was MATILDA 22 Laundress Charlton Kings, Ann 14 Laundress Uckington, Elizabeth 12 Uckington, Charlotte 9 Cheltenham.
This was the only Cornelius George Lawrence on this entire census, i am however waiting for his Birth Certificate to turn up, Dispatch date was given as 12 Jan.
But even with the fathers name (when i get the cert) it dont explain why he's not on the 1851 census (with LAWRENCE as his surname).
BIRTH CERT TURNED UP TODAY !!!! NONE THE WISER
The names on the birth cert tie in on the 1851 census, but not surname :'(
Cornelius George LAWRENCE
ErrorSPAM
REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.
][/color]4//8/1847........MOTHER..MATLIDA LAWRENCE......
ErrorSPAM
REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.
][/color]no father noted......BUT..name of informant....CHARLOTTE DERRETT.
ErrorSPAM
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][/color]
Any ideas on how to solve this one. Im new to all of this so not too clever on knowing how to solve certain family mysteries.
Thanx, Caz.
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Dear Caroline, was browsing as you do, and have found your Cornelius George Lawrence aged 3 years on 1851 census living with Charlotte Derrett in Gloucestershire No. 8 Wood Parade Cheltenham Gloucester, it seems he is listed at the house under HER surname and she is aged 41 years and widowed also with her are Matilda 22 Ann 14 Elizabeth 12 and Charlotte 9. Things can get so confusing but my guess is that Matilda could possibly be the mother of an (illegitimate Cornelius) and perhaps Lawrence is possibly the name of the father, not registered but referred to in common-law. Quite often the Grandmother (in this case Charlotte may have taken the child on as her own - to save face - or, the enumerator has put them all down as the same surname, these things do happen. I hope after all this, this message works.
Best regards
Tiffy
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1861 census RG9 1801 folio 49
Alstone Cheltenham Gloucestershire
Matilda Derrett 32 Charlton, Gloucestershire, Head Unmarried Laundress
Ann Derrett 24 Charlton, Gloucestershire, Sister Unmarried Laundress
Charlotte Derrett 17 Alstone, Gloucestershire, Daughter Unmarried Laundress
Cornelius G Derrett 14 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, Grandson Blacksmith
On the 1851 census Cornelius' relationship is given as son to Charlotte. The four females are given as her daughters. Charlotte was a widow.
On the 1861 census the grandson relationship maybe a confusion, as Charlotte senior was absent - a pike keeper in Elmstone Hardwicke! In 1871 Charlotte is back in Cheltenham with her unmarried daughter Charlotte and granddaughter aged 7 Clara Herbert born Cheltenham.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you both for your replies. However, since last January i have found that Charlotte Derrett was a Lawrence before she married, so......am i right in thinking that Charlotte said that Cornelius was her son....like you say, to save face...AND... Matilda (the real mother of Cornelius) was another child born out of wedlock to Charlotte and thats why she has the surname Lawrence on Cornelius Birth cert......
Does the above make any sense !!!! LoL
CAZ :(
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Dear Caz
Some things recorded by or to enumerators of these censuses can be confusing. In my case, my grandfather Arthur was born 1893. His parents and siblings show on 1891 census. By 1901 his father was dead, but whilst most of his siblings were still residing with his own mother he, in fact, showed up on the 1901 living with a family by the name of Hooton and registered as "grandson". To my knowledge we have no Hootons in the family tree. This was either informant or enumerator error. Another research I did for someone, showed that his grandmother was illegitimate herself, and was bought up in the same household as her own mother with both daughter and illegitimate grandchild being classed as daughter to head!!! The only chance now I think is to trace when Charlotte Derrett became widowed and compare HER husband's date of death to the birth of Cornelius and I think that will clinch the deal. I will have a go, but can't promise anything.
Regards
Tiffy (not my real name 'cos when you register they say don't it's the name of my dog!!!) But I'm 55 with 3 kids and feel silly using the name, but there you go
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Hi Tiffy....like your dogs name by the way...LoL..
I have Cornelius George lawrence Birth Cert, on it it says that Matilda Lawrence is the Mother, no father was listed and Charlotte Derrett was the informant.
Charles Derrett and Charlotte Lawrence married 6-6-1832, now Matilda Lawrence (Charlottes Daughter) was born c1829....so obviously she was born with father unknown for what ever reason...
So as far as i know i have sorted that little problem........except who does Clara Herbert aged 7 on the 1871 census belong to, cant seem to find her on any other census returns....could she be Charlottes Daughter...Charlotte, she's down as Grandchild.
I've not found a single marraige for any of Charlotte c1809 Daughters :'(
Dont you just love these family brick walls.
I've ordered Cornelius George Lawrence Marraige cert today.....hopefully that might shed some light on who his father might be...........who am i kidding.. :o
CAZ
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Hi Caz, have been GLAZED at the pc since my last message looking for you. Your Herbert girlie is shown as a servant on one of the censuses, but I'll have to go back through them again, I know that she was living with Charlotte Derrett (unmarried) and her sister Elizabeth (unmarried) from memory their ages were 39yrs and 43 yrs (ish) and still single. This Herbert is shown as their niece but will have further look at them again, to try and trace here.
According to the approx birth dates on the earliest census 1851 they go:-
Charlotte Senior about 1810
Matilda 1829
Ann 1837 (Big gap between her and Matilda)
Elizabeth 1839
Charlotte junior 1842
The elusive Cornelius 1848.
It is very possible that Matilda's real surname was Lawrence (illegit) but commonly called Derrett. I think that the father may not be showing because both parents had to be present to register, for father to agree to child having his name out of wedlock OR Cornelius was given Matilda's real surname as a single mum. It is looking more like he is a real Lawrence with the father being kept completely out of the frame, and if this is the case, you will never find Cornelius' father.
You can only hope now, that due to his planning to marry Sarah Compton, that he received the TRUTH from Matilda as to his real surname and that he gave this information on his wedding certificate. How long will it be before you get the certificate?
Best regards
Tiffy
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Me again Caz,
Have looked Familysearch.org and Ancestry bdm etc but can only find Clara (Clarah) living with Charlotte right up to 1901 census aged 36 and still referred to as niece. Surely, this can't be another illeg in the family but this time to Charlotte junior!! Clara's dob appears to be 1865. As Charlotte and her sister Elizabeth remained single through to 1901 I looked for a marriage for the only other sister Ann Derrett who I cannot find under Derret to see but cannot find her or a marriage, but no luck. Looks like another brick in your wall!! However Clara's birth must be registered and the nearest I got to on Ancestry is
Clara Matilda Herbert 1864 March Quarter Vol 6a if that is any help. There was another Clara but she was 1861 and that is too far a gap, even for the approx birth dates given for her on the census records and I thought the middle name of Matilda a bit of a coincidence, and maybe it is, but still not beyond the bounds of possibility that it could be another one of Matilda's, but not good with maths so will let you work out how old Matilda would have been if she had given birth to Clara. All suggestions but it might help. By the way, how much are you paying for copy birth certificates these days.??
Regards again
Tiffy (Lynne)
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Hi Lynne, thank you ever so much for your time and effort in trying to sort out this family......which are becoming quite clear to most of them having "Father Unknown" !!!!!
I agree with you about Clara MATILDA Herbert, it does seem too much of a coincidence for this not to be her, i'll order her birth cert tomorrow...they're £7 online.
I'll probably find that this Clara is another one of Matilda's kids......LoL
Hopefully Cornelius's wedding cert will turn up by the end of next week....i'll keep you posted.
Caz ;D ;D
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Morning Lynn, just to let you know i have ordered Clara Matilda Herbert's Birth cert this morning, dispatch date is 12th Jan.......we wait and see who this one belongs to !!!! Just hope it does'nt open up another problem for me to solve, seem to be having plenty of them lately....with both sides of my tree. :o
Cornelius George Lawrence & Sarah Ann Compton Marraige cert dispatch date was 11th Jan.
CAZ
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Hi Caz,
Been thinking. As you say, cannot find marriages for any of Charlotte seniors daughters and its Ann and Matilda that seem to have disappeared. Leaving Charlotte jnr and Elizabeth remaining together, at least to 1901, with Clara having lived with them since 1871. Although at this stage, everything is supposition, but all 'input' helps doesn't it. How about, unless Clara was the daughter of the missing Matilda (who I doubt) or of Ann (which again I doubt) the, she could be Elizabeth's (due to Charlotte junior, the head of house informing this to the enumerators through each census) she would be Charlotte's niece. Either Charlotte and Elizabeth were very benevolent or, the real mother was incapable of bringing up a child (imbecile or backward or something) every little helps. Money was short in those days, and I would have thought that even if Ann or Matilda had married, the child would have been bought up in a household, at least, as stepson/daughter, if you see what I mean.
Anyway, am now so intrigued myself, can't wait to hear results of your certificates, please don't forget to let me know.
Regards
Tiffy
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Morning Tiffy, i sure will let you know. Cant wait for the certs to turn up and see what they throw at me........
With both sides of my family i have mothers giving birth to kids with fathers unknown, me and a contact last year found that a rellie had 2 boys and sent them to Barnados Children Home, 1 of the boys was sent to Australia and is still alive today, we have made contact with a Grand daughter of his, and then another one of her sisters had another 2 kids and packed them off, so i wont be shocked by anything !!!!!
At least not now anyway....LoL ;D
CAZ
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ONLY ME!!!!
Dont' know what info you would get from death cert but have found a Clara Herbert's death aged 39 years in 1903 and your Clara was 36 on 1901 census. Don't want to exhaust your family tree funds but it is a Cheltenham death September Quarter Vol 6a - just a thought
Tiffy
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Dear Caz, only a couple of days to go for your certificate and I'm still intrigued - have still been trawling through the census looking for Matilda or Ann but thought I would have a friendly bet with you on Clara. Hopefully the certificate you get is HER and if it is, will bet that she is Elizabeth's daughter, how about that then!!!!
regs
Tiffylynne
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Morning Lynne, hopefully Cornelius George Lawrence marraige cert will turn up tomorrow or friday, then when that turns up i know Clara's birth cert will (should) be the next day....as for bets...im staying out of this one... LoL, i reckon she could be ANYONES daughter, nothing amazes me with my tree anymore, i've hardly got any straight forward families....my poor old Gt Gt Grandad Cornelius George Lawrence being put down as SON to his Grandmother on 1 census...GRANDSON to his mother on another census.....and his mother disappears off the face of the earth after (i think) 1861 and a couple of Aunties cant be found.
Cornelius even marries his neighbours wife after his 1st wife sarah dies.
I just hope that Clara's birth cert has a mothers name that i know on it...ie: Anne or Matilda.....or Elizabeth or Charlottes.
We wait and see !!!!!!! :o
CAZ
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Certainly seems that the girls were not the marrying kind. With no records findable for Ann or Matilda getting married and Charlotte and Elizabeth and also Clara all remaining single. Have only checked a few Ann Derrett deaths on Ancestry, but the few I have looked at give her age at time of death far far too old, but possibilities Ann and Matilda could have died between the two censuses. Anyway if I come across any more news will write and wait to hear results of your cert. I suppose my last message re Clara's death certificate won't put further light on her parentage will it.
Tiffylynne
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Hi Lynne, i would'nt have thought that Clara's death cert would shed any further light on her, see what her birth cert throws at us...LoL...i've not ordered her death cert for now.
CAZ
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Morning Lynne..............well what can i say :o , i've got Cornelius George Lawrence marraige cert and Clara Matilda Herbert birth cert this morning.
Clara Matilda Herbert was born 25-1-1864, the address looks like 13 White Hart? Street, Cheltenham...Father : William Herbert...Mother : ANN Herbert, formerly Derrett.
NOW for the twist in Cornelius George Lawrence marraige cert...on his birth cert there was no father listed.
Cornelius George Lawrence & Sarah Ann Compton married 19-7-1869, Cheltenham. His father is listed as being William Lawrence a Labourer, witnesses were Alfred James Arundell (dont know the name) & Charlotte Derrett (his Auntie OR Grandmother)
SO, why was'nt his father down on his Birth Cert but on his Marraige Cert......his grandmother "Charlotte" was a "Lawrence" before she married George Derrett and she had Cornelius's mum Matilda Lawrence before she married George........................
You dont think there was some "interbreeding" going on here and thats why on the 1851 census Cornelius is down as Brother to his Mother, and on the 1861 (i think) census he's down as Grandson to his mother !!! :o
Im more confused now than i was before, i think i would have preferred it if his father was'nt put down on his marraige cert.
What's your thoughts on this now then !!!!
CAZ :-\
ps, hope the above made sense, i know what i was trying to say but putting it down and making sense was somethng else
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Hi, i still cant find the marraige between Ann derrett and William Herbert, and yet i can find them from 1871 census to 1901 with other children.
CAZ
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Cornelius would certainly on his marriage, not wish to show he was illegitimate if he could help it, so he would need a father with the same surname as himself. Then it would be up to him what name he might give his 'father' as a first name, or that might in fact be his father's first name.
Have you looked for Ann Derrett's marriage on 1837online. FreeBMD has poorish coverage for marriages in the early 1860s.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressM.shtml
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, no i've not looked on 1837 for their marraige, im afraid i dont have any credits for that site. I'll just keep checking freebmd everytime its updated.
As for Cornelius George Lawrence's father being on his marraige cert and not his birth cert....are you saying that he could have made a father up for his marraige cert....i did'nt think that was possible or allowed....or am i having a thick moment and reading that bit wrong...LoL
CAZ ;D
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Marriage certificates are the most fabricated or at least embellished documents we rely on for our information. People in the past have adjusted their ages for various reasons. They often don't chose to use all their first names or in a different order, maybe not even the surname they had at birth. They might elevate their occupation slightly and if they don't do that then if their father is no longer around his might get the elevation. Their address in towns, might very well be one of convenience for the marriage - for instance the same address even though one of them lives in a different place - saves on the cost of banns being called twice. If they are illegitimate father's names may be made up. You have a choice if you are illegitimate telling everyone (they might not know) or hiding it and giving a father's name on marriage for propriety's sake - which would you chose?
Amongst my records I have an illegitimate man who married four times - each time he gave different names and occupations for his father, as he got older, moved up in the world and moved away from his home. Who was to know? At the last wedding I attended the groom put his stepfather as his father on the certificate. This was the man who had brought him up and whose surname he shared. It wasn't his genetic father.
Liam Gallagher on his marriage refused to even have his father's name put on his certificate.
There was/is no question asked on the certificate about whether father's were deceased. If they were not asked the non-existant question then there is no reason for it to be put on the certificate. They might have said 'oh but by father's dead' in which case the 'scribe' may or may not have entered the information. Even if deceased is written on the certificate it might not mean the father is dead. Again I have instances of that on certificates. The father ran away with another woman, so as far as his children were concerned it was more face saving to say he was deceased.
Of course whoever is writing the information on the certificate could get it wrong. If a couple married in church a duplicate copy was made of the certificate for the local registrar. Once the certificate arrived at the local registrar a copy was made and this was sent to the GRO where a clerk copied some of the details into the index (no check was made that the clerk copied the details into the index correctly and when the handwritten indexes got too old the GRO brought in temps to type the handwritten indexes - nobody proof read their typing and the old indexes were thrown out). A lot of copying involved here before you get to see your 'original' GRO marriage certificate or find the reference in the index - an index which obviously has mistakes in it.
Birth certificates can also be embellished. I have several where I know the child was illegitimate but the mother bluffed it out, borrowed a ring and arrived at the registrar as Mrs...... The last certificate I know like that was in the 1930s. I know the gentleman whose birth certificate it is. His parents were living together at the time but never married.
You should really take all historical documents with a pinch of salt until you can prove them with other records. They are only as good as the information supplied and as good as the person writing it down and/or copying the written information (this very much includes censuses to).
Regards
Valda
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Morning Valda,
Thank you so much for explaining this to me, i never thought that they could just put down a name to suit them.
So i shall have to take Cornelius George lawrence father on his marraige cert to be most likely made up....unless his mother told him at some point that this was his father.
I think another way to see what he says about his father is that George had a second marraige after his first wife died, i think next month ...if i can find the details...i'll order that marraige cert and see what he puts for his father then.
Thank you
CAZ
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Hello Caz, well much of what Valda says is what I have been thinking. I too found William and Ann Herbert in Queen Street Cheltenham 1871 and again, I think in 1881 with further children. However, if Clara was first born, followed by two boys 1866 and 1868, then why was Clara shunted off to live with their Aunts?? At one stage I thought that Clara might just have been visiting on the day of the 1871 census, but this is not the case because she seems to be living with them up to 1901 and probably by 1903 where I think I found her death.
It seems so strange to give the first born child (of a legal marriage) away to family to bring up, doesn't it?
There is also the senario that Ann just took William's surname without ever marrying, that used to happen then and all children were legally registered by both parents under Herbert surname.
With Cornelius, as I mentioned a few messages back, Charlotte (or someone) may have come clean in order for his marriage details, or fictitious to save face at time of marriage. Was the Charlotte witness to marriage Senior or Junior. If by Charlotte junior suspect this might be a true father name, if Mother was dead at time of marriage and no further embarrassment to her.
As there seems to be no sons produced by Charlotte Senior and you suspect incest, then perhaps an Uncle or Cousin were involved!!!
One could keep going.
Tiffy
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Hi Tiffy, i have no idea which Charlotte was a witness at Cornelius George Lawrence wedding, His Grandmother was still alive at the time, so it could have been her or his Aunt.
Think i'll wait till next month to see if i can get what looks like his 2nd marraige to an Eliza Pearce (his neighbours wife on one census !!!!!) see if he has a father down on that and who the witnesses are.
Thank you all for helping with this.
CAZ ;D
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Caz, just typed a load of stuff and lost it!!! briefly, you stated Charlotte and James Arundell as witnesses to Cornelious marriage.
Matilda, who does not seem to be around whatever I do - if she was not at wedding, then Charlotte Jnr or Snr, whichever witnessed might have come clean for this purpose, as there was no embarrassment to Matilda! If Cornelius married in his own parish, it might have been risky to name somebody who was NOT his father. It looks very suspicious that he is registered LAWRENCE the same surname as Matilda and YET his father is stated as LAWRENCE although Matilda is still a single Lawrence. However, I don't know if people had to produce their birth certificates as proof of age in those days, and if they did, they would have seen that his father was not on the certificate, but how you could check as to what the procedure was before banns I don't know
Look forward to hearing when you get 2nd marriage cert
regards
Almost exhausted
Tiffy
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I have plenty examples of marriages later and earlier where people are giving incorrect information on their marriages about all the things I have stated. I even have an example of a woman who married bigamously in 1910. Deserted by her husband who had run off and with no hope of affording a divorce she married in the name of her younger sister - (who married later the same year). The woman married out of area, to a man who knew she was marrying bigamously, but because of his job they had to marry, they couldn't just live together as man and wife (this was all known by the family and remembered today, but I also have the certificate with the evidence). In the man's job it would have been necessary at the time for him to lead a decent and upstanding life and be seen to be 'legally' married. His job - he was a Metropolitan police office!!
I think it exceedingly unlikely that Cornelius would dream of naming a father who anyone could construe as being his father through an incestuous relationship - who would admit to that in front of their in laws to be?! You would surely go for the most face saving option on the day - hiding your illegitimacy.
A marriage ususally took place in the woman's parish not the man's. Even if it was Cornelius's parish at the time it wasn't necessarily the same parish in Cheltenham he was born in, or if it was, even the same vicar. A large town is not the same as a village were the vicar knew everyone's business whether they attended his church or not and this was 21 years later.
In 1869 though it was a legal requirement to register births, there was no punishment for not doing so. That didn't happen until 1875. In 1869 a large proportion of those marrying may not have had a birth certificate, either because they were born before July 1837 or their births had never been registered (or it was well lost and they were not sure in what district it had been registered in the first place). Some may have been born abroad. Others would have to have tried to find where their baptism had taken place as their only proof, if they had all been required to produce some evidence of their birth to marry. How likely would it be that people could all produce this documentation in 1869? Even if they could how could you prove it was their birth certificate or their baptismal record and not somebody else's?
I'm not sure Ann would quite see it the same way as a more modern day interpretation may see it, that of giving her daughter away to others in the family. Extended families didn't quite work like that. Clara slept at her aunts' home (do remember the census only picks up who slept there that night not who lived there day in day out) so it is possible on that first census (1871) that is what she was doing, sleeping there that night, before leaving her own home as a younger woman to get out from under her mother's feet and live permanently with her favourite aunts - possibly as a support for them as they got older. Even if as a young child she was sleeping at her aunt's home for whatever reason, she was likely to be in and out of her parent's home as well.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, thanks for the info, im trying to take on board what you're saying, its not easy when you've got a telly blaring in one ear and a son in the other all whilst the hubby just lies there on the settee !!!!!
Next month i'll order Cornelius's second marraige cert and see what it says on there for father.
CAZ ::)
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Dear Caz,
please don't forget to let me know how you get on with 2nd marr cert for Cornelius
Lynne
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Hi Caz, I'm still breathing, did you get any further with Missing Cornelius
xxLynne
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Hi ya Tiffy,
I've not had the money this month to get hs 2nd marraige certificate, so none the wiser if his dad is unknown (blank on Birth Cert) or William (stated on 1st Marraige Cert).
If i get the money to order his cert i'll definately let you know, im definately going to get it, cant wait to see what it says for Father on this Cert !!!!
CAZ
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Morning Tiffy,
Just to let you know that i have ordered the marraige cert for Cornelius George Lawrence & Eliza Pearce (his 2nd marraige).
Despatch date is 3rd March.
I'll let you know the outcome of his Father/No Father on this cert. ???
CAZ
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Look forward to hearing.
Will try to come up with a "cunning plan" to endear him to your enthusiasm of the Search!!
xxLynne
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Morning Lynne,
just to let you know that im still waiting for the Marraige cert to turn up.
I keep standing in the front window watching for the postie, trying to see if he has a nice large white envelope coming my way......but NO, not yet.
It'd had better shed some light as to who his father could be after this long wait, just my luck its going to have a different fathers name to whats on his 1st marraige cert or blank like his birth cert... :o
CAZ
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Morning Caz, cor the trouble I had trying to get your message to come up, me pc went all wonky on me. Poor you, your gonna have to buy some of those support tights soon to stop the varicose veins. Nice to hear from you again, 'cos would still like to find out about Cornelius. Do you know, having been involved on Genes Reunited and helping out peeps, they did narf like to have kids out of wedlock in those days. They way they go on about single parents these days, you'd think we had invented it. Ooooooh, those naughty victorians!!!!
xxTiffyLynne
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You wana see how many female rellies i have in my tree having kids out of wedlock, 1 woman had 2 and sent them to Barnardos kids home, 1 of the boys was then sent to Australia, he's still alive today.
I've laughed at how people go on about women today having kids before marraige, i often wonder if they've researched their family tree before......they might be in for a shock....ha ha ha
I'll let you know the outcome of George's Marraige Cert when/if it arrives.
CAZ
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Morning Lynne
Well i got the 2nd Marraige cert this morning for George Cornelius Lawrence and the worst thing that i could think off has happened................he has a different name for his Father on this cert !!!!!!!!!!!
On this certificate his fathers name is "George Lawrence" Deceased....Occupation : Miller.
SO...on his Birth cert there is no Father mentioned.
On his 1st Marraige cert his Father is William Lawrence...Occupation : Labourer.
On his 2nd Marraige cert his Father is George Lawrence...Occupation : Miller.
I think i'll go along with what Valda said somewhere in this thread.....he did'nt know his Father and he just mentioned any name for the Marraiges to save face of not knowing who his father was... :-[
Unless i can find a William George...OR...George William Lawrence........but i think its unlikely.
CAZ :'(
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Hi Caz!
Still reading the thread!!
Do the other details on this new cert match what you were expecting? And are the witnesses folk that you can identify?
If yes to all the above, then i think a bit of imagination was being used!!
A ;)
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Morning Arranroots
The only details that are on this 2nd Marraige Cert that i was expecting are the names of the married couple...ha ha ha
I was hoping in a way that the Father for Cornelius was left blank....like his Birth cert !! instead it gives a different fathers name on this marraige cert to Cornelius' 1st Marraige cert.
As for the Witnesses, i have no idea who they are : Charles Cooke & Alice Cooke, i dont have those names in my tree.
Cornelius & Eliza married on 13/9/1899 at the Register Office in Cheltenham, Glos.
So this Marraige cert has'nt helped me at all in finding who Cornelius' father was, just baffled me even more.
CAZ
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Morning Caz, Whoopsydoo does this confuse you or what!!!!
What place of residence was given on the marriage certificate?
xxxTiffylynne
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Hi ya Tiffy, i should have known that this Lawrence family would be trouble from the details on the 1851/61 census !!!!
Cornelius George Lawrence was living at Greens Cottage, Tewkesbury Rd, Cheltenham.
Eliza Pearce (Nee Price) was living at 33 Queen Street, Cheltenham.
CAZ
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Me again Caz, so Eliza Pearce was we presume on her second marriage with Cornelius. What ages are given for each on the certificate>
xxTiffylynne
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Hi ya,
Eliza Price was born 1856, Tirley, Glos. She Married a George Pearce...dont know when. On the Marraige cert to Cornelius, Eliza Pearce' age is 45 and she's down as Widow.
Cornelius is down as Widower and his age is 52.
CAZ
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Blimey!
He didn't hang around after Sarah Ann died then, did he? ::) ;D
I don't know if this helps you at all, but I did a little timeline in order to get my head around it all!
~~~~~~~~------------------------------
1829 Matilda LAWRENCE born
1832 Charlotte LAWRENCE = Charles DERRETT
1847 Cornelius b Ch K, s/o Matilda LAWRENCE and ?, informant Charlotte DERRETT (nee LAWRENCE)
1851 Cornelius DERRETT with Charlotte, 41, her daus Matilda etc
1861 Cornelius with Matilda DERRETT unmarr head "grandson" - but Charlotte is absent
1864 Clara Matilda HERBERT born 13 White Hart St, d/o William HERBERT & Ann HERBERT formerly DERRETT
1869 Cornelius = Sarah Ann COMPTON, s/o William LAURENCE
1871 census married to Sarah Ann
1881 census married to Sarah Ann
1891 census married to Sarah Ann
1899 death of Sarah Ann
1899 marries Eliza PEARCE, s/o George LAWRENCE, miller
1901 census (have we got this??)
1903 Clara HERBERT death
~~~~~~~~----------------------------
Have you looked for William and/ or George LAWRENCE on earlier censuses? It could be that he did exist in the background somewhere? Did we ever discover what happened to Matilda? If you have a spare day or so (!) you could try the full marriage/ death indexes which are currently free to view.
Arranroots ;)
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Hi Arranroots
i have the 1901 census info, Cornelius & Eliza are living at 15 Cleveland St, Cheltenham with 3 of Eliza children from her previous marraige.
I have'nt tried looking for a William/George Lawrence, not having a birth year for them etc.
As for Matilda, cant find her after the 1861 census, cant seem to be able to find a marraige for her either.
CAZ
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There is a George LAWRENCE ag lab in Charlton Kings in 1851. By then he is 25 and married to Emma.
No Thomas - but if the daddy was a Thomas he might have run off by then!!
;)
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Hi Arranroots
The George Lawrence on the 1851 census is mine, he married Emma Mustoe, they're my G G G Grandparents, so its not him.
Before i get confused even more.....whose Thomas or do you mean William..
CAZ
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LOL I probably do, don't I??
I will resign again at this point...
;D
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LOL at Arranroots.... ;D
Thank you and Tiffy (Lynne) for your input into this.
Think the best thing i can do is leave well alone, just leave the Father...Unknown.
CAZ
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Cornelius George Lawrence was my grandmothers grandfather ... She was Gertrude Lawrence prior to marrying my grandfather Harry Brooks