RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: The Engineer on Saturday 15 March 08 09:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
researching my wife's ancestors shows that her 2nd great-grandmother was Mary Ann WHELAN born 21.4.1860 in Barracks at Aldershot to John Whelan (1827 Rathvilla, County Offally, Ireland) and Frances (or Fanny) BEEBY (13.5.1839 Castle Donington, Leicestershire). They can be seen there in 1861 - 5th Royal Irish Dragoons (Lancers) & East Calvary (sic) Barracks, Aldershot, Hants.
First mystery is I cannot find a marriage for John Whelan and Frances (or Fanny) BEEBY. It's probably in the UK, but not certain. Any suggestions?
From the regimental history I know that in 1863 the new regiments first overseas posting saw them leave Portsmouth harbour for Cawnpore Station in India where they remained for the next 10 years.
Whilst in India:
1. One or two more children (at least) were born - Ellen E Whelan (1863 Lucknow, India) is a "possible" and Sarah J Whelan (1868 Lucknow, India) is a definate. Trying to find proof of these births....
2. John WHELAN must have died (about 1868) - trying to find death record.....
3. His widow Frances (Fanny) WHELAN then married Joseph DONALD (1839 Hulme, Manchester, Lancashire) in India, circa 1870 - he was a Troop Sergeant Major, Denbighshire Yeomanry. Trying to find marriage record.....
4. At least one child Joseph DONALD was born in India, in 1871. Trying to find birth record.....
5. The daughter Mary Ann WHELAN met Francis William (Frank) HAWKINS (wife's great-grandparents) out in India - I cannot find a marriage (circa 1884) for this couple, so again I think it was in India...... (note, they settled in Stinchcombe, Gloucestershire from 1885 onwards where their children were all born).
Joseph & Fanny Donald then settled in Wrexham, Denbighshire, where they can be seen in 1881 and 1891 with their children plus step-daughter Sarah J WHELAN. Joseph is still with the army, it appears he died at St Asaph in 1892. Fanny and some of her children then appear at St Helen's in 1901.
Sorry it's such a saga but I do not know how to get Indian records which would be great to prove the relationships and births, and any help and pointers would be really appreciated. I only found the Joseph & Fanny Donald story last night with a bit of lateral searching on Ancestry.com!!
Many thanks,
Garry
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There are one or two things on the IGI (International Genealogical Index of the Latter Day Saints/LDS)
Ellen Whelan
b 2 Jan 1867 Rawal Pindee, West Bengal
chr 2 Mar 1867
father John Whelan mother Anne
batch number C750207
Sarah Jane Whelan
b 2 Oct 1868 Lucknow, West Bengal
ch 20 Oct 1868
father John Whelan mother Fanny
batch number C750215
Joseph Donald Lucknow West Bengal
b 21 Aug 1871
chr 21 Sept 1871
father Joseph Donald mother Fanny
batch number C750225
These are extracted entries (with the batch number) so more reliable than submitted entries.
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deleted - duplicate posting
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Hi Garry,
I've collected some "India Links" here:
Topic: INDIA: Resources for Ancestors in British India
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,30580.0.html
Hope this helps,
Bob
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Hi Silvery,
thank you very much for looking up those names on the IGI for me. I never thought of looking there! Well, it does prove that the "possible" Ellen is probably not another child of John WHELAN, neither have I been able to find any more children of John & Fanny.
But - thanks to you - I have now corroborated what I've found in the 1881 & 1891 census returns with birth records. Thank you very much indeed!!
Cheers,
Garry
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Hi Berlin Bob!!
thank you very much for that collection of links, I shall start to look through them this afternoon. I have been busy shopping and cooking this morning!! Silvery has given me some good information and - added with your links - I hope to find a bit more.
I'm rather pleased at finding Fanny remarried again, it now means there are half brothers and sisters for my wife's great-grandmother. Plus a new sister born in India. It could mean a whole new branch of the family tree!!
Sincere thanks,
Garry
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Hi,
researching my wife's ancestors shows that her 2nd great-grandmother was Mary Ann WHELAN born 21.4.1860 in Barracks at Aldershot to John Whelan (1827 Rathvilla, County Offally, Ireland) and Frances (or Fanny) BEEBY (13.5.1839 Castle Donington, Leicestershire). They can be seen there in 1861 - 5th Royal Irish Dragoons (Lancers) & East Calvary (sic) Barracks, Aldershot, Hants.
First mystery is I cannot find a marriage for John Whelan and Frances (or Fanny) BEEBY. It's probably in the UK, but not certain. Any suggestions?
From the regimental history I know that in 1863 the new regiments first overseas posting saw them leave Portsmouth harbour for Cawnpore Station in India where they remained for the next 10 years.
Whilst in India:
1. One or two more children (at least) were born - Ellen E Whelan (1863 Lucknow, India) is a "possible" and Sarah J Whelan (1868 Lucknow, India) is a definate. Trying to find proof of these births....
2. John WHELAN must have died (about 1868) - trying to find death record.....
3. His widow Frances (Fanny) WHELAN then married Joseph DONALD (1839 Hulme, Manchester, Lancashire) in India, circa 1870 - he was a Troop Sergeant Major, Denbighshire Yeomanry. Trying to find marriage record.....
4. At least one child Joseph DONALD was born in India, in 1871. Trying to find birth record.....
5. The daughter Mary Ann WHELAN met Francis William (Frank) HAWKINS (wife's great-grandparents) out in India - I cannot find a marriage (circa 1884) for this couple, so again I think it was in India...... (note, they settled in Stinchcombe, Gloucestershire from 1885 onwards where their children were all born).
Joseph & Fanny Donald then settled in Wrexham, Denbighshire, where they can be seen in 1881 and 1891 with their children plus step-daughter Sarah J WHELAN. Joseph is still with the army, it appears he died at St Asaph in 1892. Fanny and some of her children then appear at St Helen's in 1901.
Sorry it's such a saga but I do not know how to get Indian records which would be great to prove the relationships and births, and any help and pointers would be really appreciated. I only found the Joseph & Fanny Donald story last night with a bit of lateral searching on Ancestry.com!!
Many thanks,
Garry
I know this is an old post but it is linked to my family.
Is there anyway to find out the name of the ship the family were on from Portsmouth to Cawnpore in 1863 ?
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Hi , My ancestor , Joseph David Sinclair ( trumpeter ) was in the 5th Lancers from 1867 to 1879. I have begun to research the regiments movements. Not sure what boat they left for India on but it was reported in the press that some of the 5th were on passage home on the "Euphrates" from India in Dec 1874 after being stationed in Bengal. Around end of Jan 75 they arrived in Portsmouth and proceeded to Colchester. I am trying to check Joseph's birth details. His father was John Sinclair, a drill instructor in the Scots Greys between Oct 1831 - Aug 55 and married Eliza Sinclair nee Really from Cavan , Ireland sometime during the 1830's. I have been unable to locate their marriage date on line. Also unable to verify when and where Joseph was born but it is likely to be between 1853 and 1855 in Ireland as I have had no luck with England / Scottish records.
Any leads greatly appreciated. Peter.
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Should Garry return, the record for Joseph Donald is on Findmypast - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f1731%2f207%2f001&parentid=gbm%2fwo97%2f1731%2f433963&highlights=%22%22
Peter - Welcome and Denipan
The muster books in the National Archives often give details of the ships used. The musters were also used as paylists, and men got reduced pay when on board a ship as food was provided. So the number of days at sea was recorded.
Ken
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Thanks Ken
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Ken - Many thanks for your info. Will add to my to do list when I make my first visit to the National Archives.
Peter
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John Whelan died in India in 1868. Would he have died in battle? Where would he be buried?
John and Fanny also had a son born on a ship in 1863. Frederick William Whelan.
Where would this birth be recorded?
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There's a burial record for Corporal John Whelan of the 5th R I Lancers at Lucknow, 27 June 1868. Aged 41. No cause of death recorded.
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There's a burial record for Corporal John Whelan of the 5th R I Lancers at Lucknow, 27 June 1868. Aged 41. No cause of death recorded.
Thanks Shaun
He is buried in Lucknow Bengal. Where in Lucknow is what I would like to discover. Also if he is buried there did he die there as well?
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Generally people were buried on the day of their death or the following day so it is probable that he died in Lucknow, and probably of disease.
A Father Ignatius officiated.
The old European RC cemetery at Lucknow has not been well maintained - see http://goo.gl/9KPBjF
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Thanks Shaun. I don't know very much about India
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Hi,
just to say I am back, been a long time since I have been on here. Please reply here or message me with any queries or possible family links......
Many apologies that I did not see the replies until now.
Cheers,
Garry
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Hi Garry and welcome back to Rootschat. Do you need to update your original post from 2008 = or are you still hunting for the same information?
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Hi Shaun,
Thank you for your welcome. I have indeed moved on after my last posting. Illness has prevented me from doing much research but, although still bed bound most of the time, I have a new laptop which enables me to do some research wherever I am if I am well enough.
Progress has been:
1. I now have a marriage for Mary Ann Whelan to William Francis Hawkins in 1884 in Dublin, Ireland. Probably on return from India and before they settled down back in Stinchcombe.
2. Like wise, the marriage of John Whelan to Frances Beeby was registered in 1858 in Naas, Co. Kildare, Ireland. This is a town close to the regiment's barracks at the Curragh.
3. I now have a third child for their marriage, Frederick William Whelan born 21 Aug 1863 born at sea as the regiment and families were en-route to India. I have contact with relatives of this child, he went on to spend 25 years in the army himself and on leaving the army settled in Australia with his wife and some of their younger children. The 1901 census shows him at barracks in Suffolk and shows him as being born on HMS Euphrates.
4. I have seen a record that shows John Whelan died of disease (unspecified) on 27 Jun 1868 at Lucknow, India.
5. I have also seen a record for his widow (Frances, nee Beeby) marrying Joseph Donald 26 Oct 1868 at Lucknow, India. They had five children, the last two being born in Wrexham, Wales, where they settled from about 1880 onwards. I now have records of many descendants from these children, my wife's half cousins!!
I have still to find any parentage for John Whelan, born 1827 in Rathvilla, Co. Offally, Ireland.
I have not researched the parents of Joseph Donald, as they are not direct ancestry to my wife. He was born in 1839 in Hulme, Manchester. He died in 1892 at St Asaph, military camp.
I would like to find a death record for Frances, would be Frances DONALD, to complete her picture. Last seen in 1901 census as a widow at the home of her son Arthur Clement DONALD in St Helens, where he was a glass bottle maker.
If anyone wants to know more about the above, please private message me and I can send files with more details to you.
Thanks again to all who replied to this thread whilst I was absent, and apologies that I was not able to reply earlier.
Garry