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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: acookey on Thursday 13 March 08 21:28 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
This is a follow on to my other thread on Edward Cullen (Intruiging Puzzle etc). I have a copy of a marriage certificate that was issued to other researchers in 1988. Edward Cullen was 20 years old, based on his death certificate which stated he was married at 20, and his supposed d of b, and his wife Jane was probably about 16.
The certificate that I have does not show who gave permission for the marriage. I am trying to find his parentage and this may be important.
The details are: Edward Cullen m Jane Harrision, St. Mathews Roman Catholic Church, 8 August 1853. Witnesses James Harrison and Bridget Bullock.
Does anyone have access to church records that might show the names of those who gave permission.
With thanks
ACookey
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The marriage ceretificate should give name and occupation of the father of the bride and groom.
As this couple were minors a marriage license would have been required. These usually said "with the consent of" a named parent or guardian.
You could try looking for a license at the county record office .
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Hi
I missed out on saying that they were married in Windsor, NSW. The certificate I have does not give any of that information as mentioned by Bearkat. Which is why I would like to be able to see the original church record as I think it was just before civil registration in NSW.
Annette
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Sorry about that. I did have a quick look at your other post, saw Windsor and presumed it was in England. :-\
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Hi acookey
The following is a link to the Hawkesbury on the net. They are transcribing registers and placing them online. Unfortunately, they don't have St Matthew's marriages online.
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/church/
Regards
Genni
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Looks like a tough one.
Is the church still there? Perhaps you could contact the local minister and find out where the Archived records might be?
The parent's might have been "witnesses' for the marriage.
Barb
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Hi All
Thanks for that link Genni. They may not have St. Mathews RC marriages but I found two deaths that could be significant for me. One was for James Cullen aged 40 buried in 1849 (St Matthews RC Windsor) and Thomas McKenna 1842 (St, Joseph's RC MacDonald River).
I cannot see either of these on NSW BMD, (see my other thread), so I wonder just how many church registers never made it to BMD.
Annette
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Hi,
The Mitchell Library in Sydney have St Matthews RC parish register.
Andcarred
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You might be in luck, then, Annette!
State Libraries will normally do a limited amount of free research for people living in their own States and outside the metropolitan area. However, I am in Queensland like you, and some time ago I contacted the Mitchell Library - who very kindly sent me copies of some papers they held relating to some of my ancestors!!!
So go ahead and contact them, explaining the circumstances of your request. I feel fairly confident that they will look up the registers for you!
Let us know what happens!
MarieC
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O'Brien's Family History - 06-03-2008
by Bruce Eric O'Brien
http://www.gencircles.com/users/f6a1m13i9l12y25/15/data/1040
Hello there have a look at this link it does have some details for Edward and Jane (found it with a little help from friends)
regards Jenn
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Hello Jenn
The birth in 1838 looks rather suspect when he married in 1853 (aged 15?)
Hi Annette
My understanding of all NSW records at the registry pre 1856 (start of civil registration) is that they are copies of church registers. I would think that the certificate from 1988 contains all the information that was available. You could email one of the transcription agents to confirm that the records are copies of the church registers. They charge $9/10 for a transcript of a pre civil record.
From my own research it is rare to find "permission" given for marriage at this time. My ggg grandmother was 16 when she married. The transcription starts as follows
Register: Presbyterian Church Marriages for St Andrew’s Scot’s Church, Sydney in the County of Cumberland for the year 1837
I have the name & usual residence of the groom and bride. The name of 2 witnesses & declarations by the couple that they belonged to the Presbyterian Church. No mention of parents, age or permission. The bride was born in 1821 Paisley, Scotland. The family came to Australia in 1833. Her parents supported the marriage & would no doubt have given permission - but this is not in the register.
As noted by MarieC the only option seems to be to get copies of the Church registers. If you think some are missing from the registry, then you have noted before the options - SAG or the Mitchell library. I emailed my friend about looking for the 1833 birth at SAG - she is on holiday at present, when I hear back I will let you know.
Trish
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Thank you Jenn and Trish.
Jenn, I believe that this is the wrong parentage for Edward. They have certainly attached all the children of Edward and Jane. I know I looked at Thomas Cullen and Mary Ann Alcorn, but after a while definitely rejected them as being my Edwards parents.I have to look amongst my papers and find out why I did that.
Cetainly the birth/marriage dates are not very believable. Edward would also have known who his mother was if it was Mary Ann Alcorn. There were some other things that didn't fit, will let you know when I search them out.
I had a big day out yesterday, and am exhausted today.
Thanks all the same for your interest and efforts. I have had some things discovered that I would not have known about had it not been for the great people on RootsChat.
Annette
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Hi All
Waiting for answers to my request to NSW State Library, and also Hawkesbury Library.
However, I am looking at a book self published in 1995, re another branch of the family. The author undertook meticulous research, that I can see, and on the subject of BMD certificates, and Church registers, this appears in his list of sources:
"Cobar, Wesleyan Church, Marriage register - marriage of Samuel William Smith and Sarah Costello (Buckley). Additional information on the register not shown on the certificate shows the groom's birthplace, parentage, and father's occupationh, plus the bride's birthplace, parentage and father's name and occupation".
So it seems that certainly in some cases, not all the information appears on BMD certificates.
Annette
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Hi all
Jen, Just checked back to find out why I rejected the Thomas Cullen/Mary Ann Alcorn link. I contacted a descendant of Thomas Cullen who told me that he had not been able to find evidence of an Edward being born to this couple. He directed me onto another family, who were descended from Edward, and they knew of the existence of the baptismal record from St. Mary's Cathedral, and that it stated his father was James Cullen, stonemason.
Hence my search.
Thanks for your interest and the time you took to check it out. It is appreciated.
Annette
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Good to hear where you are up to, Annette! Looking forward to hearing the results of your further searching....
MarieC
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Hi All
Waiting for answers to my request to NSW State Library, and also Hawkesbury Library.
However, I am looking at a book self published in 1995, re another branch of the family. The author undertook meticulous research, that I can see, and on the subject of BMD certificates, and Church registers, this appears in his list of sources:
"Cobar, Wesleyan Church, Marriage register - marriage of Samuel William Smith and Sarah Costello (Buckley). Additional information on the register not shown on the certificate shows the groom's birthplace, parentage, and father's occupationh, plus the bride's birthplace, parentage and father's name and occupation".
So it seems that certainly in some cases, not all the information appears on BMD certificates.
Annette
That is certainly the case for many certificates post civil registration (after 1855 until c. 1918 I believe) as the churches apparently did not submit all the information to the registry. I was of the impression that the registry information pre 1855 was the church registers. If this is not the case I would be most interested as I would love more information from a couple of my early marriages. What year was the marriage you mentioned above?
Trish
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Trish,
As I have found to my amazement - church records can have much more info than what was submitted. Start with the religion & try their websites for their own archives. I paid for (not expensive) records from the Catholic Church - Goulburn diocese some years ago. Definitely worth investigating
Shaz ;)
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Trish,
As I have found to my amazement - church records can have much more info than what was submitted. Start with the religion & try their websites for their own archives. I paid for (not expensive) records from the Catholic Church - Goulburn diocese some years ago. Definitely worth investigating
Shaz ;)
Hi Shaz - I agree post 1855/6 - but is this the same for the earlier records?
thanks
Trish
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Trish,
The one I got was 1863, so am not sure about the early records. As the Archive microfilms were of the registers, you would expect to have all the details - however it might be worth a try if you have a brick wall.
Shaz
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Hi All
Trish, that marriage was 1895. The marriage that I am waiting on was 1853, so from what you say, it will be interesting to see if there is further information on the church record.
Annette
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Hi All
Trish, that marriage was 1895. The marriage that I am waiting on was 1853, so from what you say, it will be interesting to see if there is further information on the church record.
Annette
Do let us know Annette - tis interesting - and sometimes frustrating that the registry doesn't have a precise answer. They have never told me that more may be available from Church records for the later marriages - that came from another rootschatter some time ago. I find the Victorian and Queensland certificates (post civil) virtually compete from day 1
Trish
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Hi All
Not good news on all fronts. Someone very kindly did a look up for me of the St Matthews RC records in the Hawkesbury City Council Library, and there was no further information on the Register than was on the Marriage Certificate for Edward Cullen and Jane Harrison.
I also heard from NSW State Library today, and they have searched all records that they hold for Edward Cullen's baptismal record and were not able to find anything. What they have is the same as SAGS and included some records from the Mitchell Library.
The State Library person did say that St Mary's Cathedral still holds some records that have not released.
So I am very disappointed, but will keep hoping. I will also put a post on my other thread.
:'( Annette
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Bad luck, Annette! So sorry you have found nothing to further your enquiries. But I'm glad you had a good response from the NSW State Library! :)
Am not sure what you can do about St Mary's Cathedral. You can't discover that you are a distant relation of Cardinal Pell, perchance??
MarieC