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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 11 March 08 11:50 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone and welcome to Patrishs' Scavenger Hunt. We've got an interesting one this week but I'm sure you'll work it all out and the information will come pouring in.
Here you go.
Good luck and Good Hunting.
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This is my Jewish Phillips family, a lot of records are closed, not available unless you pay for a search which I have done it the past.
1851 HO107/1545/301/32
16 Swan Court, Whitechapel, Middx.
Catherine Phillips widow 50 General Dealer b Whitechapel
John Phillips un 31 General Dealer b Whitechapel
Emmanuel Phillips un 24 General Dealer b Whitechapel
Emmanuel is my direct descendant. I have found what I beleive to be is a younger brother Samuel he married in the January 1851 address at time of marriage, 2 Swan Court. His occupation and subsequent childrens name tie in.
On his marriage father is given as Philip Phillips deceased. It was a jewish custom to name the first born son after the grandfather if deceased which is the case here.
What I would like to find is
1. A marriage for Catherine and Philip Phillips circa 1820
2. Any baptisms for the 3 brothers
3. The death of Philip Phillips
4. Them on the 41 census
I know that Emmanuel "married"( but no legal one found )a Susanna Palmer.
I have thier first childs birth also Philip Phillips in Whitechapel , Spitalfields June 1854.
I have Samuel and Hannah in 1871 and 1881 only
And Emmanuel and Susanah in 1871 and 1881 only
I also have Emmanuels son Philip on the 1881 with his widowed mother Susan, and some siblings I also have Emmanuels death..
So there are a few census's to stab at.
Is that enough info
Pat x
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hey Pat(rish) ;D
bookmarking ..... woohoo another hunt :D
deb
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:)Hi Patrish
Are these yours?
1861 census 2 Kings head Court Spitalfields London
Samuel Phillips born Not Known ( Hawker) 32
Hannah 32 (Hawker)
Phillip 10
Abraham 9
Emanuel 6
Kate 4
Angel 2
Hannah and Children are listed as being born in Spitalfields
Regards Colleen
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Hi Patrish,
I'm glad you finally got round to letting us have a go at your ancestors ;D
I'll give this a go.
Genie
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Hi Colleen
SNAP! ..I just found samuel and family ... he's a hawker ...pob NK ...eekkkk
deb ;D
added ... Emmanuel was in the Cigar business ... :-\
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hi
1891
101 Ernest street, MEOT
Samuel Phillips 66 hawker b London city
Hannah wife 68 b LC
Sarah dau 20 cigar maker b LC
Martha dau 18 " " "
Joseph 16 son shipper cigars b St georges
deb
hi Genie ;D
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wow,i have just done my scavenger hunt on my husbands family but i am goin be looking and helping if i can with yours as my own family are jewish(not practising apart from circumsizing all their boys)my lot seem to be fairly wealthy although from bethnall green as far back as i have gone so far.thorpe and godfrey but they had obviously taken english names at some point.i am married to a romany and we are quite sure that the roms orinally came from the jews 4,000 years ago.we think they are the lost tribe of dan!!!who according to the bible appear again around now in history.who else but the jews and the gypsies were scattered around the world with no country to call their own.i will keep an eye on this one.my family were cabinet makers and lithographers and musicians and actresses by the way.i will look for a philips/thorpe/gofrey marriage somewhere.who knows?cathayb
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bookmarking
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Hi Deb :) :) :)
Where is Emanuel I cant find him??? ??? ???
Hi Cathay :)
Colleen
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I can't find Emmanuel either ? If samuel is his brother then maybe he also has a 'not known' POB.
Samuel and Hannah had a lot of kids ... the 1891 I posted is def. them as the kids match up from the 1881, also their Occupations.
I think that maybe the Phillips brothers were not born in the London area as they state ...maybe that is the reason for not finding their baptisms ....
deb
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how about this :
IGI
Philip James Phillips = CATHERINE ALMIRA VICKERY
11 MAY 1818 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster
:-\
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Just curious....... but would baptisms be found for a Jewish family?
Nanny Jan
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very unlikely.they have bar mitvahs when they are about 13.if you can look in synagogue registrars the boys are cicumsized at 8 days old.they wouldnt have their babies baptised unless they were trying to pull thw wool over someones eyes for cover up that they were jews or possibly in a mixed marriage.there are about 8 baptisms in jewish religion but none of them relate to christian baptisms.remember jews are not christians un less they are messianic jews. you be better off looking at inscriptions in jewish cemtaries.some are listed on the web.cathayb
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::) ::) Just a thought, but could Phillip Phillips have been an Immigrant and changed his surname,
I have just done a search and Spitalfield had thousands of Jewish Immigrant's.
As I said just a thought?
Colleen
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Hi cathay
thanks for the info .... :D
deb ...
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Bookmarking... :)
I wondered that too, Nanny Jan, but I also wondered if maybe there might be two weddings if one parther were Jewish & the other not, to appease both families?
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because of english law they would registrar their babies.as for marriages look in synagoues once again.good article on jewish ancestry in one of the geneaologaly mags this month.i will look and see which one.cathayb.definately changed their name when they emigrated.phillips is not a jewish name. jewish names unless they are cohen or levi always come in as son of ???eg., ben judah, ben jonannan (son of john)so would be ben ???,see what i mean?jewish gen is very difficult.however they often congregated in certain areas.if your in spitafields now a another good place to look is bethnal green and tower hamlets area.there were a number of jewish emigrations over the centuries in blocks so to speak,some from russia,some from spain that i know of.my own family lost a lot of their jewish ways as they became more westernised and they ended up in the late 1800s getting married in anglican churchs.so you may be lucky.i think they had to have a regitrar present or the rabbi had to inform the registrar of births marriages and deaths after 1837.not sure about that though cathay b
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There are a number of Phillipp's in the Whitechapel area, in 1841 some give pob as Foreign.
This is not surprising as it was the "Melting Pot".
Can't find a Sam or Emanuel that fits yet :-X
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This looks promising...
1841 Tower Hamlets, No. 2 Frying Pan Alley
Caroline Phillips 45 Dealer F
Reusel 20 Dealer F
Sarah 15 F
Emanuel 10 Y
Simon 8 Y
and at same address, separate household:
Rebecca Phillips 40 Fruiterer Y
Mary 80 Y
HO/107/710/13/45/18
Added: is Caroline an error for Catherine, and husband away on business etc? or is she already widowed?
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i am surprised you are making so much headway,well done.i was and still am really stuck on my jews.if you come across any godgrey/willey/thorpe while looking for philips please preety please let me know.i am just glad at the moment that jewish/gypsies have been mentioned.i am off to see what other search helps i can find. menotti street,bethnal green was a very large road and housed alot of jews. cathay b
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oooooo Guys ...
on the 1871 census for Emanuel and Susan their surname is Philips but there is a surname under it that has been crossed out ...looks like Susan PHILYM??, Emmanuel on previous page looks like Philyss ..but can see it is also PHILIYM??
is this how they pronounced it or is it their name?
RG10/412 59 18
deb :-\
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Hi Deb,
I see it...both look like Philym - their "real" name maybe, Anglicised to Phillips...?
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Wow guys so much interest and help already thank you where do I begin :-\
You definitely have the correct Samuel and Hannah (Levy) with a son Angel, what an unusual name for a boy.
Cathayb you are much more kn owedgable about the Jewish religion that me . :)
I had no idea of any Jewish connection until I started my FH with my Gt. Grandfather Jacob Phillips who on his marriage is given as John, I spent years looking for the wrong person. ::)
As to the "marriage" of Emmanuel and Sarah (Palmer) I have had the registers of all the Ashkenazic Orthodox synagogues serving London searched and nothing..
I haven't seen the actual image for 1871 as it was found by a chatte light years ago and I never had the reference Debs USA , so I will now take a look at the surname.
The name as far as I know has always been spelt Phillips and pronounced that way and still is.
Patrish :-*
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As to the 1861 looking for Emmanuel and Susan (Palmer)
I have the London CD set and have systematically gone completely through the entire disk for Whitechapel and Gt. Georges in the East and cant find them ::)
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;D
off to the dentist ...bbs
deb :)
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right a little bit more.if they were here before 1830 and came from spain or porugal they were not ashkenzim jews but sephardim jews!!!they could also hace come from portugal or netherlands or even a british colony like gibralter.later jews 1n the 1800s are ashkenzim and came from eastern europe,russia,poland,belarus etc.,you can try looking for naturalization records.if you dont know their jewish name it is almost impossible to trace them unless you have naturalization papers to look at.naturaliziation records available on line at www.nationalachives.gov.uk. the index only covers 1844 to 1934 though.you may also find them on the alien files in the home office records.as yours are early immigrants it will be difficult.look for a cencus where birth is given not in this country and start there!!good luck on a more hopeful note later phillips which is quite an unusual name for a rom you can find some female phillips marrying turners around hampshire/dorset/sherwood.theres also some tomb stones there but not buried in the jewish part but they are not churchyards but cival buriel yards. most jewish young men when they came to england packed a napsack and became pedlers at least for a time to find fame or fortune.many took enlish wives and may even have adopted the womens english surname and customs.jewish kosher and romany custom are very very simialar apart from me and roms who love a bacon sandwich!!!how good were your phillips about staying kosher?that might give you another clue. cathay b. end of book for now!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Looked at the 1871 and I see what you mean about Susan surname that is crossed out a real puzzler there, I wonder if because they were not legally married
I also notice that the surname has been spelt with one L I have tried all variants of Phillips on the 41 .
They are living in Aldersgate, think this comes under East London, so perhaps I should trawl through that CD :P
Patrish.
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when your out and about look in jewish parts of cival graveyards.not all were buried in fully jewish graveyards. i still am not really sure how you came to decide the family are of jewish extract.what acctually does it say on jacobs marriage cert and where was the marriage held?cathay
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dont worry about spellings on cencus.only as good as the enumerator,most jews unlike roms could read and write but english was their 2nd language not their 1st and proably only learnt here outside of their immediate family,so there was plenty of room for error!!they proably spoke the language of the country they came from and/or maybe yiddish or perhaps even hebrew,aramaiac, who knows.depends when they came here and what generation here you are looking at.
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end of book for now!!!
Oh no Cathay I am really pleased, it is all so new and interesting to me.
The information about the wedding and the connection to the Ashkenazim came from a Mr. Charles Tucker at the research unit of the London Beth Din in Finchley.
I have Emmanuel's Permission for Interment 24.7.1876, it says on his grave
Mendele son of Uri would that help me at all do you think. :-\
It is also recorded as Stranger (not a paid up synagogue member)
From what I can make out they tried to disguise the fact that they were Jewish.
Jacob (John) also had a son Emmanuel who was my. grandfather, my grandmothers family vehemently opposed the marriage and ostracized her, they in fact went out to France and married in Paris.. Thats what mum told me and I have thier marriage cert.
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I've found a Phillip (40) and Catherine (35) in 1841.
see HO 107/725 book 3, folio 10 page 15.
The boys aren't there but they could be off working.
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Jacob (John) married in St Thomas's Bethnal Green father Emmanuel Phillips General Dealer. thats all, of course he was deceased by then in 1882.
I will take a look Genie, thanks
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well you have the surname there ben uri,son of uri. jews did not have surmames till they came here so that ones grandad likely to be ben menedele. try looking for uri phillips in a cencus.if that was found with ashkenzim jews thats the right sort for them anyway.you are really go to need now to find those in england around that time and then look at either nationalization papers or alien papers.they might have been joining family already here in which case you may find some earlier ones.cathayb dont you wish you had a simple english family like smith!!!i did at times but then there are an awful lot of smiths about to....... ::) ::) :o
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Hi Genie,
They are possibles, :-\ but what appear to be their children's names do not run with any of mine with the exception of John but he was 31 in 1841 .
So I should look for nationalization or alien papers for Emmanuel , which years , should I search . ???
My husband has Smith's and they have been a nightmare ;D ;D ;D
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on my hunt i had alot of trouble with a hungary husband,i hope you got plenty of food in the freezer.you will find your self glued to the computer.its great isnt it?love cathayb
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look for the earlist cencus or birth registration you can find and then search 10 years previous to that.well start with 10 years,if no joy go further back if you can.i have never had any joy but you may be lucky.i hope so.let us all know if you are wont you.we can still carry on looking for their offspring here now though.has anyone checked out the hampshire/dorset/sherwood connections to turners?
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Just to say I'm trying to help, as Patrish was so helpful in my Hunt, but so far nothing... :-\
meles
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Can I chuck what might be a spanner in the works, and ask why you think Samuel from 2 Swan court is a brother of Emanuel? and is this the only reason for thinking Emanuels father was Philip? I have found records of various Phillips at various numbers Swan court and although they are probably related they are not all the same imeadiate family.
I have just found this
Name Solomon PHILLIPS237
Birth abt 1796, Christ Church, Spitalfields, Whitechapel, London1107
Birth Memo Age given as 61 on death certificate implying a birth of about 1796.
Death 25 Oct 1857, 15 Swan Court, Middlesex St., London240,1108
Death Memo informant: L. Isaacs in attendance, 13 Swan Court, Whitechapel
Burial 26 Oct 1857, Great Synagogue Burial Ground240
Occupation general dealer (1857)1108
Residence 1857, 15 Swan Court, Middlesex St., London240
Religious Name Pinchas Zelig ben R[ev] or Haver Menahem HaLevi238
Father Nathan ? PHILLIPS
:)
Debbie
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This looks promising...
1841 Tower Hamlets, No. 2 Frying Pan Alley
Caroline Phillips 45 Dealer F
Reusel 20 Dealer F
Sarah 15 F
Emanuel 10 Y
Simon 8 Y
and at same address, separate household:
Rebecca Phillips 40 Fruiterer Y
Mary 80 Y
HO/107/710/13/45/18
Added: is Caroline an error for Catherine, and husband away on business etc? or is she already widowed?
I tried this Caroline and family on 1851 and 1861 - no joy yet , which is making me suspicious...but if this is Catherine, what happened to Reusel (enumerator's error for Reuben?) and Simon? could have died - but Sarah's a problem, could have married.
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juts a quick question are Samuel & Emmanuel the same person, there names sound similar and as they dont appear on any census together the enumarator could have quite easily misheard Emmanuel for Samuel espically if Emaunnal wasn't as common as name as Samuel.
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i geuss you've used JewishGen & Jewishfamilyhistory.org & Jgsgb.org.uk
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hi guys
back from the dentist...I must say this is all very interesting ....These hunt's are giving me an education ....
deb on the scavenge again LOL
;D
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Had a crack at FreeBMD, found this in marriages:
June Q. 1854, City of London 1c 264
Three men and two women, hmm...
Men: Jacob Michaels; Michael Phillips; Emanuel Phillips
Women: Rachel Jacobs, Abigail Martin
Tried the 1861, looks like Abigail m. Michael Phillips - but I can't yet find Rachel m. to either Jacob or Emanuel in '61.
Did you ever get this Emanuel's cert., Patrish? I don't know how long this entry has been on FreeBMD, so I can't tell if it's old news or not...but we're a bride missing here. I tried for a Palmer or anything like it, but no joy :(
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re tower hamlets.reuben for boy,simon could be simeon,racking my brain for caroline.could be he took an english wife.look for her pre the cencus date you have got her with her husband as still phillips.maybe a clue to how they got their english name.he may have intermarried.there was a marriage in st jacobs an anglican church so they werent adverse to christian ways.cathay.to recap.jews did not have surnames they adopted surnames here.always before son of or daughter of ?1st son generally named after fathers father.wheras we follow fathers line and rightly so jews follow mothers line.dont know what use that is.just filling in background i suppose.cathay
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look carfully at debs info.i think shes onto something.you got my idea of menedele and debs cert of menehem si think mene is significant. levi,cohen and isaacs are all names for jewish priesthood so the informant was probably used in whatever service they had and then informed the registry as they had to do. some of the surnames could be english equilvants of jewish 1st names. philip in the old tesament,solomon,michael,jacob,etc.,so if they married these jewish women mentioned just now it looks as if they werte still kosher.phillips though i am suspect on,i think that was only new tesament which of course jews dont use.cathay ::) :-\
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hay debs where did you get that birth and death info and all the gen on.it is really helpful.i have never seen anything so good to do with jews.it may help me in my own search. the last bit haver ......levi again points to the rabbis.and i notice pinchas zeileg ben hal.take note of the ben.zeileg looks german.i wonder if they came from germany originally.cathay
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Hi Cathay, just read your last few posts - do you reckon Philip Phillips only called himself that because he needed an English name and just made it so he had forename matching surname?
I'm fumbling about in the dark here, no experience of Jewish names, but having seen a few called Jacob Jacobs, Isaac Isaacs, etc., I'm wondering if that's how it went...
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I agree with cathay ..DebbieG has got a winner I think ...Look at the address...
well done Debbie ;D
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oooooo Guys ...
on the 1871 census for Emanuel and Susan their surname is Philips but there is a surname under it that has been crossed out ...looks like Susan PHILYM??, Emmanuel on previous page looks like Philyss ..but can see it is also PHILIYM??
is this how they pronounced it or is it their name?
RG10/412 59 18
deb :-\
I had another look at this, it looks as the crossed out part could have been Phibym.
Could the "bym" bit be an enumerator's misheard Ben something? with a later substitution if he had to go back and check?
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sorry to put a dampner but phibum or what ever i dont think is jewish even with a bad accent.i would stick with philips.jacob jacobs isaac isaac yes sure could be there attempts for a surname.rockerfella took his from the name of the chalet he was staying in.how they came by there surnames has no rules.it would make it easier if they had rules.you could have ben phillips but not phillipben.oh i dont know if i make sense.being a jew married to a romany with m,y romany kids is hard enough to uinderstand at the best of times.back then though jews had had it hard in the eastern bloc thats why they came here.they didnt suffer the persecution here until much much later.oh i made a mistake isaac is jewish of course but its not a priestly name.the other thing to remeber like roms jews are very tribal and what line you come from is quite important.cathayb
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the great synagogue london has there rrecords with family search,if you cant get them on line you can order them to your library and have alook.another good place is london beth din. beth means house by the way.dont ask me what din means.i dont know.cathay.where does catherine/caroline come from?place of birth?
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I have just found this
Name Solomon PHILLIPS237
Birth abt 1796, Christ Church, Spitalfields, Whitechapel, London1107
Birth Memo Age given as 61 on death certificate implying a birth of about 1796.
Death 25 Oct 1857, 15 Swan Court, Middlesex St., London240,1108
Death Memo informant: L. Isaacs in attendance, 13 Swan Court, Whitechapel
Burial 26 Oct 1857, Great Synagogue Burial Ground240
Occupation general dealer (1857)1108
Residence 1857, 15 Swan Court, Middlesex St., London240
Religious Name Pinchas Zelig ben R[ev] or Haver Menahem HaLevi238
Father Nathan ? PHILLIPS
:)
Debbie
in 1851; Catherine Phillips is 50 and b Whitechapel.
just had a look through Swan court in 1851 and there is a ZELIG PHILLIPS at no. 10 swan Cort
Zelig PHILLIPS 53 porter in general b Christ Church
Ann wife 51
Nathan 20 watchmaker
Bar?? son 17 cap maker
Esther 17
Kitty 10
Joel son 6
everyone else born whitechapel
Do you think PINCHAS could be their 'real'name?
deb
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Yes they are in Swan court in 1841 as well
swan court 1841
Ann Phillips 40
Barnett Phillips 8
Catherine Phillips 1
Eliza Phillips 14
Esther Phillips 6
Neam Phillips 10
Phillips Phillips 4
Zealig Phillips 40
Zeadock Phillips 12
I have been checking into the availability of the great synagog records and it does not seem that they are available on-line so it would probably mean a trip to a LDS centre, but it may well be worthwhile.
Debbie G
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I have Emmanuel's Permission for Interment 24.7.1876, it says on his grave
Mendele son of Uri would that help me at all do you think. :-\
It is also recorded as Stranger (not a paid up synagogue member)
So it seems that whatever he called himself in english Emmanueals fathers jewish name was Uri - is that right Cathay?
Coo - we don't half learn doing these hunts - last week I was reading up of Romanys - this week its 19th century jews!
Debbie
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bar might be bartholmew, pichas will not be their real name.remeber no jewish surnames.always son of:so zeileg looks promising for fathers name.not even christian name.you have to think like a jew.they were in no way christian at that time.so no christian names as we think.so zeileg could be son of zeileg phillips.zeliig phillips 1851 oldest son?maybe nathan so zeileg might be grandson of nathan.wait a minute i think i am in a muddle,someone who is still clear thinking work it out.rule is,1st son always called after grandad.all names will be son of?or daughter of??and .if my dad was john,and his dad was bert and i am 1st son. i would be called bert son of john and in england where you need a surname i would be phillips in this case.so john phillips but than think jewish again for naming patterns and finding alein or naturalisation records. am i making sense. just read latest post.yes thats right uri.is that what i said a few pages back? i will have a look or you will find me under table in debs usual spot if i am wrong.cathayb
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out from under the table Cathay ;D ;D You are helping a whole LOT!!!
okay ...so Solomon Phillips aka Zeilig Phillips , his dad was Nathan (according to the death info debbie found) ... so Zeilig's oldest son is nathan according to 1851 census! ...have I got that right ..eg; my eldest son called after my dad ....so Nathan > Zeilig > Nathan
deb ;D
added looked around Swan court in 1841 ..No Catherine, Emmanuel or John :-\ :-\
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thats right.thank God someone is clear thinking.would you all like a few jewish jokes?perhaps not i might be done for racism even though i am one.if romanys turn out to be jewish i will be 100%pure bred!!!sorry the thought just came to me ::)
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okay another thought ...Catherine was 50 in 1841, she is in the same generation as Zeilig.... maybe catherine's husband was Zeilig's brother ... ie; Philip Phillips is b/o Zeilig/Solomon Phillips ...
arrghhhhh...if only we could find them in 1841.
deb
Cathay .... ;D ;D ;D 8)
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they might not have been here in 1841!!!i think russia or round there somewhere would be a good place to begin looking for aliens frm::what are you on about debs?explain a bit clearer you know i am a din lo or divvy depending on which brand of rom you speak, oh and how about kitty.is she english cause her mums english or is she keziah reall?
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Yes they are in Swan court in 1841 as well
swan court 1841
Ann Phillips 40
Barnett Phillips 8
Catherine Phillips 1
Eliza Phillips 14
Esther Phillips 6
Neam Phillips 10
Phillips Phillips 4
Zealig Phillips 40
Zeadock Phillips 12
I have been checking into the availability of the great synagog records and it does not seem that they are available on-line so it would probably mean a trip to a LDS centre, but it may well be worthwhile.
Debbie G
isn't this Zelig in 1841 then?
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would someone please tell me where debs got her information from.you know the bit everyone keeps quoting about death with jewish details.its in english too.all the ones i ever found were in hebrew,and my hebrew is very very very bad.i only know a few odd words.i got enough trouble with english and romany well just read latest post. Zeadock right spelling is Zedoc catherinbarnett and neam??all ponit to him marrying english girl.i bet its her surname they took(phillips)
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hee hee ....
okay ...Emmanuel Phillips ...his mum is Catherine, she is b c 1801 Whitechapel. Patrish said that she thinks emmanuel's dad could be called Philip Phillips as she has a marriage cert of a Samuel Phillips (dad >>Philip)...arrghhh ...I have no idea why I think Solomon/Zeilig is related ... I am going nutso!
deb
Toni ....yep that's Zeilig in 1841 ...we have to find Catherine (b 1801)and Emmanuel (1827) in 1841 ... they were in Swan court in 1851 ... not there in 1841
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i am off for cup of tea.see ya later.i expect to see problem solved when i get back.wheres patrish by the way?oh and no talking or throwing chalk while i am out the room
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so Samuel & Emmanuel are not the same person then???
they dont appear on any census together
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Had a crack at FreeBMD, found this in marriages:
June Q. 1854, City of London 1c 264
Three men and two women, hmm...
Men: Jacob Michaels; Michael Phillips; Emanuel Phillips
Women: Rachel Jacobs, Abigail Martin
Tried the 1861, looks like Abigail m. Michael Phillips - but I can't yet find Rachel m. to either Jacob or Emanuel in '61.
Did you ever get this Emanuel's cert., Patrish? I don't know how long this entry has been on FreeBMD, so I can't tell if it's old news or not...but we're a bride missing here. I tried for a Palmer or anything like it, but no joy :(
Hi just did a cross reference on this marriage using the name Susan* ... it came up with a Susanna Plowman..... :-\
deb
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Hi Toni
No don't think Samuel=Emmanuel ... we have Samuel married to a Hannah in the 1861/71/81... samuel was a hawker but the family seems toi have gone into the cigar business.
Emmauel married a susanna Palmer ... he is on the 1871 and 1881 with family ...also in cigar business .
deb
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the national archives has:~
Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register: boys LMA/4046/C/01/001/0130
Date of Birth: 08/08/1870 Isaac Park, Date of Birth: 14/03/1869 Solomon Park, Date of Birth: 15/02/1869 Phillip Polack, Date of Birth: 28/03/1871 Isaac Phillips, Date of Birth: 04/07/1870 Abraham Phillips, Date of Birth: 15/12/1864 Goodman Phillips, Date
Date range: 1869 - 1893.
Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register: boys LMA/4046/C/01/001/0135
of Birth: 31/03/1882 Marcus Pampel, Date of Birth: 19/12/1879 Gabriel Pampel, Date of Birth: 22/02/1882 Phillip Phillips, Date of Birth: 13/11/1878 Nathaniel Panig, Date of Birth: # /03/1882 Jacob Pearlman, Date of Birth: # /01/1883 Simon Pellman, Date
Date range: 1869 - 1893.
Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register: boys LMA/4046/C/01/001/0128
Pepper, Date of Birth: 04/06/1867 Mark Phillip, Date of Birth: 19/10/1866 Benjamin #, Date of Birth: 23/03/1866 Jacob Phillips, Date of Birth: 02/04/1868
Date range: 1869 - 1893.
Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register: boys LMA/4046/C/01/001/0129
Park, Date of Birth: 16/05/1864 Phillip Phillips, Date of Birth: 27/12/1868 Reuben Phillips, Date of Birth: 31/07/1863 Henry Phillips, Date of Birth: 01/02/1867 Eleazar Proups, Date of Birth: 09/08/1868 Zaseman Phillips, Date of Birth: 14/05/1867 Nathan
Date range: 1869 - 1893.
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http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/records.asp?cat=2006-cobb_2-2&cid=1-1-14-2-1499
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wow.thats great info.now were getting somewhere.i am just going to look at the site myself back in a minute
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Hi Toni ...thanks for those :D :D ... I had seen them earlier this morning ...I didn't recognise the forenames at that stage ...makes sense now ;D
I wonder if all the Phillips' in Spitalfields are related ...i have just found a David Phillips , unm 60 Hawker b Whitechapel . living in Spitalfields. Samuel Phillips who married hannah was also a hawker ...
deb :-\ Time for glass of wine , I think ;D ;D
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here another ...
Angel was Samuels' son or was it Emmanuels' son
Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register: boys LMA/4046/C/01/001/0131
LMA 4046 C 01 001 0131 Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register: boys English Loan By written permission 1 page from volume, 49 x 59 cms LMA jewish Jewish Community settling Jews' Free School London: Whitechapel District Angel Phillips, Date
Date range: 1869 - 1893
Could this be Patrish's Philip Phillips ?
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/485/980038
Insured: Philip Phillips 53 Whitechapel Road dealer in marine stores
Date: 1821.
ooo Look at this one ...
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/534/1168272
Insured: Nathan Phillips and Barnet Cohen, 18 Gulston Street, Whitechapel, cap peak manufacturers and dealers in clothes
Date: 1833.
remember this : Zeiligs dad was called Nathan
Zelig PHILLIPS 53 porter in general b Christ Church
Ann wife 51
Nathan 20 watchmaker
Bar?? son 17 cap maker
Esther 17
Kitty 10
Joel son 6
everyone else born whitechapel
deb
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i expect these are hers.shes goin be real pleased when she sees all you have got.only the 1st day too.
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Sorry guys had to go to the gym tonight, just got back
So many questions I dint know where to begin. but I will try.
Emmanuel and Samuel are different people.
I have no concrete evidence that Samuel was Emmanuel's brother, only the hunch of address, occupation and connection with his children's names.
John is aged 31 in 1851 and Emmanuel 24 so there must be further siblings. I would suspect from Catherine's age that John is the first born, I do have a possible marriage for John but there is no way I can be sure, he may not have married.
Angel was Samuel and Hannah's son.
I dint think Zelig or Nathan are mine, I have seen them before on the census.
I have the marriage cert for Michael Phillips and Abigail Martin, it had Emmanuel crossed out and then Michael written above.
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IF they are hers ... big IF ...LOL ....
don't know how we can connect Zeilig with Emmanuel's dad ... except that they appear in the same street/court during certain censuses ....
deb
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John is aged 31 in 1851 and Emmanuel 24 so there must be further siblings. I would suspect from Catherine's age that John is the first born, I do have a possible marriage for John but there is no way I can be sure, he may not have married.
Angel was Samuel and Hannah's son.
according to the Jewish tradition then ...If John is the eldest son then his granddad would have been John too...... we have to find them in 1841 ...
another question ... re; the naming of children ... would both John (b 1820) and Emmanuel (b 1827) , children of Catherine , have name their eldest son after their dad ... if this is true then Emmanuel's dad would have been a PHILIP as Emmanuels eldest son was Philip ...am I making sense
deb
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I have the marriage cert for Michael Phillips and Abigail Martin, it had Emmanuel crossed out and then Michael written above.
That infers that Emmanuel called himself Michael,
Is that what you think Pat ?
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No Genie, this one has his father as Abraham, a different family altogether.
Yes Debs usa you have that right both Samuel and Emmanuel called their first born sons Philip.
You now see why I need to find them in 1841 also a marriage for Emmanuel and Susan.
Samuel and Hannah Levy married in the Synagogue it gives both their addresses as 2 Swan court which I suspect was actually hers. He was a Glass Dealer, they were both minors.
Fathers name as Philip Phillip deceased and Samuel Levy Traveller.
No family names as witnesses.
I am totally amazed at where some of you have found all this information.
Its possible Debs that Philip that you found could be mine.
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you are debs.you are correct.i am afraid i am not doing any looking up as i am helping out with a number of trees at the moment and my head will boggle,but as long as you think it is helpful i will help with the jewish way of thinbking.okjay?
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levy or levi is def a different tribe to the ones philips are in but thats quite okay.tyhe levi are the exception to the rule as they are the priestly line of judah so always keep the name of ??? son of levi no matter who the grandad is.they are the only part of the tribe entitled to the highest respect as the levi served God.i am not getting all religeus on you.its just the way it is.there are 12 tribes all of course with different names now although the levys only seem to have gone as far as adding cohen to theiur names.most jews will know which tribe they belong too even after all these years.most romany jews are from the tribe of dan. love cathay
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And once again Cathay you are a font of information on the Romany/Jewish side of history.
I'm totally fascinated reading this thread.
Barbara
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Cathay ...you are invaluable here ... I have not had to hunt for Jewish people before so your info is of great help . It seems that they are just as hard to find/decypher as the Romanies ...
Patrish ... the fact that samuel's first son was Philip seems to make it possible that he was related to Emmanuel ...also the fact that they and the families were in the cigar business.....Samuel however does state in the 1861 that he is a hawker and POB = NK... If we could find them in 1841 and Emmanuel in 1861 it would help .... a LOT!
maybe we should try to find a John with a older son called Philip .... you said you had a possible for John the older brother ... who do you think he married and have you followed him.
BTW ...does this naming tradition still happen today/
deb
hiya Barabara ...err I mean Barbara LOL
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Patrish ...
Where did you get the info that Emmanuel's wife was a Palmer ?
it's so funny ...my Gr grandad William Penfold (gypsy) married bessie PALMER ... ;D
deb
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thanks for praise i love it.just trying get my head through the door,ah thats it.yes naming tradition still goes on today in kosher families.dont expext your jewish roms to stay poor or hawking.jews are very good at sniifing out the vonger and when they get it they are very mean and become very rich!!!all that is except me111exception to every rule!!!! :'( :'( :'( :P :Dyour cigar business jews proably own half of havana by now,half each that is!!!iam off to bed now but will look in again tomorrow.love cathayb here we go again.palmer with you marries penfold who so many of us are related to.i think and heres a big clue one of them penfolds dad stole a apple from his dads garden and got us all into trouble.the dads name was adam by the way,married a women called eve!!!!!!
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heres a big clue one of them penfolds dad stole a apple from his dads garden and got us all into trouble.the dads name was adam by the way,married a women called eve!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
yep That's my family .... i have traced them all back to gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg granny Eve and grandad Adam ;D ;D 8)
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; ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;Dwe re related.lets share trees. this is getting daft.night all.
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wait til you my brother.wow.see the things he can do.night
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Night Cathay...........sleep well
Barbara
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You will have to bear with me folks I am swimming in paper notes here and its getting on for midnight so I will have to call it a day soon.
Where did you get the info that Emmanuel's wife was a Palmer ?
I have Philips birth cert b 1854 Father Emmanuel Mother Susannah Phillips formerly Palmer and Jacobs (John) in 1859 saying the same.
On Phillips it says father was a General Dealer on Jacobs it says Greengrocer.
These ages both tie up with them on the 1871 Census. where there is also a Catherine, obviously named after the grandmother.
.
The marriage that I thought might be John is on th IGI John Phillips to Mary Ann Lamond 16.8.1852 St. Dunstans, Stepney.
Found what might be them in 1881 RG11/0411/122/73 he is a General Dealer
b Whitechapel
If I could find his marriage it would also help.
I will have to go now, thank you so much everyone for all you help, your amazing.
Thank you Patrish.
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this is john's marriage info
John Phillips Sept q 1852 Stepney
Mary Ann Lamond Sept q 1852 Stepney
vol 1c p 968
added is John's eldest son called philip? that is if he had a son ::) ;D
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In 1881 he is 59 and she 49 with one daughter Mary A aged 22 b London, Middx.
Think I need to find these two on earlier census.
I can take a look at thier marriage if it turns out to be correct at the Met Archives.
I also have the death of a Catherine Phillips Dec 1856 Whitechapel, I might take a punt and send for that, see what it turns up.
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This is them in 1871:
Shoreditch, 97 Willow Walk
John is aged 49, a Grocer; Mary Ann is 40 and dau. Mary Ann is 12.
All given as born Bethnall Green
RG10/442/116/25
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Hi Brambeltye
I was just about to post that I couldent pick them up on Ancestry in 1871 and you have found them , brilliant :).
Whats your opinion of the death, do you think its worth a punt. ???
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Ah - in 1861, we have:
John aged 39, Coffee Roaster, wife Mary Ann 29 Silk weaver, dau. Mary Ann age 2.
Address prob. 10 East Street Bethnal Green, but it looks as though they are sharing that with William Phillips age 75 Copper Master b. Norfolk, and his wife Charlotte age 72, same birthplace. No.s 8 & 9 are all Phillips family as well, all b. Bethnal Green,: Henry & Ann, with children Ann, Henry, John, Mary Ann, Caroline, Edward, Frederick; then Harriet & her dau. Harriett - mostly silk weavers.
Not certain now this is the right John... :(
...but re the death of a Catherine 1856 Whitechapel, might be worth giving that a go, as yours was in Whitechapel on the 1851 (and we can't find her on the 1861...not that anyone has turned up on that yet...!) the Death cert. would give the Informant, and that might be family, with luck...
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It does not sound like them with those family names, :-\ only John which every second boy was ;D
I am very tempted to send for the death. .
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Good Morning All
Sorry Cathay - I wasn't ignoreing you - I had to go last night, the site I found with the info on idividuals and their proper jewish names etc, is a very good personal family tree one done by a Jocelyn Keene - it is here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jbkeene/KeenePhillips/INDEX.HTML
it was the fact that they all lived in the same Swan court at about the same time and had the same surname that caught my eye
I have just found another marriage entry on Free BMD with only 5 names - one of which is Susanna Palmer - what do you think
Marriages Jun 1852
Gibbs George London City 1c 167
Palmer Susannah London City 1c 167
SMITH George London 1c 167
Williams Ann London City 1c 167
Williams Morris London 1c 167
I have to get some work done today - will be back later
:)
Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
Yes it does look a possibility, the London City marriages I believe are held at the Guildhall Library, so not that easy for me to go and see.
But something rings a bells here in previous searches but cant remember what ::)
Like you I have to get on, have my breakfast and go out later for a blow ;D ;D ;D
(shopping) .
I will take a look at that site, later. :) thanks.
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Book-marking this Patrish.
Gosh, this is an interesting one. Such a lot one never knows about Jewish customs and family records ...
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While I am waiting for my cab. thought this info may be of assitance.
Found on the IGI a birth of Susannah Sarah Palmer 25..4.1927 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England. father John mother Susannah ::)
The actual entry said. Living High St, Whitechapel, Father John Palmer a Cheesemonger.
After exhaustive searching I found this on the 1851 which could well be her, as their first child Philip was born in 1853.
HO107/1769/264/24
94 Wood St, St Walthamstow
Susan Palmer wid. 50 Grocer and C b Middx, shoreditch
Susan Sarah dau 24 un b Whitechapel
John son son 20 un Grocer b Middx Sahdwell
George son 10 b Essex, West Ham .
Any thoughts ???.
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Possible in 1841 HO107/701/9/19/30
Occupations are different though. ??? ??? ???
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Just noticed in 1881, Samuel's son Angel is also a Cigar Maker - working with the family of the late Emmanuel, perhaps? both families are in Tower Hamlets in 1881. It's a tenuous link maybe, but it's a little something to go on...
...just seen your last two posts Patrish, I'll also try the 1841 for any other Palmers while I'm trying for the Phillipses...
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good morning everyone :)
I have been on the hunt for an hour looking for John Phillips b c 1820 ...
the only one I can see at the moment is a John Phillips 20 with a John Phillips 60 ( maybe the grandad) in 1841 . They are both born in county and living on Dock Street, The Town Hamlets , Whitechapel ...both labourers ...
Still no catherine or Emmanuel in 1841 , except the Emmanuel Brambletye say yesterday with a Caroline and other siblings....
coffee time
deb ;D
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good morning everyone :)
Still no catherine or Emmanuel in 1841 , except the Emmanuel Brambletye say yesterday with a Caroline and other siblings....
coffee time
deb ;D
Hi Deb :D,
I've been trying to find these on the 1851 to see if I could eliminate them, and struck out...I'm after seeing where they give as birthplace, because three of them are down as born in Foreign Parts in 1841 (Caroline age 45, Reusel age 20, Sarah age 15 - the other two were Emanuel 10 and Simon 8).
If Caroline is a mistranscription for Catherine, there's a problem though, because in 1851 Catherine says b. Whitechapel (and that was still in the UK last time I looked ;D)
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Hi Brambletye
I am still going through 1841 ... aaarrrgghhhhh ..
another thought ; Samuel Phillips (father of Angel), in 1861 he staes POB is not known and he was a hawker ...by 1871 and 1881 he is saying he was born in Middlesex. So Maybe they did come from FP... and just adopted Whitechapel as their POB ...
deb
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Hi Deb,
I'm caning the 1841 as well - what search parameters are you using? as I'll try something else, so we might cover the ground faster...
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I have been using this, eg:
ema* or emm* , b 1827, +/- 5years, Middlesex
Phi* , Middlesex, Spitalfields or Whitechurch
Cat*/Kat* b 1801 +/- 5 , Middlesex (and there are hundreds of Irish Catherines LOL )
these are Emanuel and Susan/nah children in 1871;
Philip 17 b c 1854 cigar maker
Abraham 15 1856 cigar maker
Jacob 12 1859
Isaac 10 1861
Catherine 6
all kids except Philip born City of London
where are they in 1861? ....they are driving me bonkers
deb :)
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I have been using this, eg:
ema* or emm* , b 1827, +/- 5years, Middlesex
Phi* , Middlesex, Spitalfields or Whitechurch
Cat*/Kat* b 1801 +/- 5 , Middlesex (and there are hundreds of Irish Catherines LOL )
deb :)
I'll try phe* for the surname in case the enumerator didn't dot his i's (or cross his t's...;D)
...and here's an idea for the 1861 - how about we try it the other way around, in case the enumerator put surname first, and they've all gone down as the Emanuel family... ??? :(
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good idea Brabletye ...will give it a go...so we should look for Philip Emmanuel, or Abraham Emmanuel .... good idea!
I am getting a little confused ... :-\
Found Abraham Phillips 28 cigar maker living in West ham Essex in 1881. he is with Abigail (wife) and children Samuel 6, Rosetta 4, Philip 2, isabella 1. From the name of the first son ... we have to assume that this is Samuel (brother of Emmanuel), son's family. If the above Abraham was Emmanuel's son , his first son would be named Emmanuel ...do I have this correct ? ::) :-\
need more coffee
deb ;D
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nothing I can see using surname Emmanuel :-\ :-\ :-\ >:(
even more coffee needed
deb
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how about Immanuel?
i looked last night and couldn't see anything interesting or relevant :-\
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This looks interesting, a poss. for Susan Palmer on the 1841:
HO107/710/11/31/14
Susan Palmer 15 FS b. in county
living Tilley Street Spitalfields Tower Hamlets
in household of Israel Frankford age 25, Segar Maker [sic]
and his wife Rosetta age 25 - children Isiah 5, Morriss 3, Isaac 1 - all b. in county
I'll have a go for her parents now...
p.s. Oh Toni, brilliant! I hadn't thought of Immanuel...
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Hi Folks,
all kids except Philip born City of London
Another mis lead there ::) birth cert of Phillip 1854 Whitechapel , Spitalfields Middx.
Jacob b 1859 East London, St Boltops. County of London, which I suppose is city of London on reflection.
There is no sign of even a second for Emmanuel on any census, death cert or his Interment notice. ???
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I spotted that one earlier, but havent had much time the think about it . ;D
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Patrish - did you say you had the 1859 birth certificate for John/Jacob ? what address did it give?
Debbie
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the naming pattern may stop once they became westernized which they definately did as patrish ems diect descendant didnt even know she was a jew until researching family tree.they are like the roms.they can break the rules when it suits them cathayb
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Had a look again on 1841 and found HO107/725/1/12/18
St Botolph Aldersgate, George Court
Abrm. Phillips 42 G Dealer
wife Anna 40
children (or others...?)
Henry 22, Emanuel 17, Michael 14, Woolf 10, Sarah 6, Rosetta 5, Elizabeth 2, Priscilla 1.
If I remember rightly, it's prob. this Michael who m. Abigail Martin? where the name Emmanuel had been crossed out and his put instead?
Just wondering if we're certain that this Emanuel age 17 is son of Abraham, as the 1841 gives no relationships - maybe a nephew, farmed out to other family by his mother, to learn a trade?
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Patrish - did you say you had the 1859 birth certificate for John/Jacob ? what address did it give?
Yep 19 Hutchisons's Avenue, Aldgate
I think you are dead right there Cathayb. I am so grateful for all your knowledge and in put about the Jews.
I couldent find a Uri anything on the 1841, it may be his father never made it to England. eh.
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Yes that correct Brambletye, the marriage cert gives father as Abraham, also it was signed Michael Phillips by the official not X witnesses D.Levy and Moses Levy.
I only wish this was him, this couple were married according to the rites of the German/Polish Jews.
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Found Abraham and family on the 1851:
HO107/1543/212/2
12 Bell Lane Christchurch Spitalfields
Abraham Phillips 51 General Dealer
wife Hana 48
children Woolf 25 Cigar Maker (ah... :)),
Sarah 17 Tailoress, Rosetta 15 Tailoress, Elizabeth 14, Priscilla 12 Scholar, Isaac 10.
All b. Aldgate.
No Henry, Emanuel or Michael at home - I'll have a punt round and see if anything useful turns up.
Just seen this again too...
Found Abraham Phillips 28 cigar maker living in West ham Essex in 1881. he is with Abigail (wife) and children Samuel 6, Rosetta 4, Philip 2, isabella 1. From the name of the first son ... we have to assume that this is Samuel (brother of Emmanuel), son's family. If the above Abraham was Emmanuel's son , his first son would be named Emmanuel ...do I have this correct ? ::) :-\
deb ;D
Both these families have a Rosetta, and both Samuel and Emanuel called their second son Abraham - just thinking out loud here...
Added ...that Abraham might be uncle to the Emanuel in his household in 1841, and not father?
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Hi Brambletye
I think that Abraham age 28 in 1881 ...is the son of samuel , samuel being the brother of Emmanuel ...I think errr ::) :-\
my anc****y is on the blink
deb 8)
this Abraham looks like he married abigail Martin in sept q 1874
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Am I getting confused here :-\
That cannot be Emmanuels brother Abraham the mother was only 50 on the 51 census. also he is on the 1881 as unmarried aged 23
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pat ... just amended my last post to read Samuel was the brother of Emmanuel. Abraham is the son of Samuel
deb
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Am I getting confused here :-\
That cannot be Emmanuels brother Abraham the mother was only 50 on the 51 census. also he is on the 1881 as unmarried aged 23
The Abraham Phillips age 28 in 1881 = b. c1852/3, making him son of Samuel & Hannah
The other Abraham b. 1856 was son of Emanuel & Susan
The Abraham age 42 in 1841 and 51 in 1851 is b. c1799/1800, making him a good age to be brother to your Emmanuel's father Phillip Phillips (with luck...!)
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there you are.i thought they were from the eastern bloc. another point not all the perants may have emigrated here.often one family would bring alot of nephews with them so that the sons of those left in their native country could build a new life with better prospects for themselves.they are likely to be the first to marry out or drop jewish tradition unless uncle could keep a close eye on them.i would look fot any missing now in hampshire/dorset/sherwood as they the phillips def married into turners/birds and proberly others.cathayb
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Another thought - Samuel Phillips & Hannah m. c 1850, had a son Michael in 1869.
Hannah was a Levy; and Michael Phillips son of Abraham m. Abigail Martin in 1854, witnesses D. Levy and Moses Levy.
I know Levy is not an uncommon name, but it could connect Samuel to Michael if Michael's witnesses are connected to Hannah? and Samuel named a son Michael...
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is it a coincidence that Michael Phillips (s/o Abraham) married Abigail Martin in 1854 and Abraham Phillips , s/o Samuel Phillips married an Abigail Martin in 1874!
deb
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Could this be Samuel in 1841, possibly also not son of the head of household, but a nephew or some such?
HO107/706/3/31/2
1061/2 (no, really ;D) Curtain Road, Shoreditch
Solomon Philips 40 Fruiterer
Mary 30
Susan 15
Samuel 11
Mary 15
Clara 7
Joseph 11/2
....
is it a coincidence that Michael Phillips (s/o Abraham) married Abigail Martin in 1854 and Abraham Phillips , s/o Samuel Phillips married an Abigail Martin in 1874!
deb
Good grief! well spotted, Deb...
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Reply 94#
Palmer Susannah London City 1c 167
Checked this on complete index's no cross reference for an Emmanuel Phillips.
Right
so we know that Abraham b 1856 is Emmanuels brother.
Abraham b 1799/1800 could be the brother of Philip Philips Emmanuels father.
he Abraham Phillips age 28 in 1881 = b. c1852/3, making him son of Samuel & Hannah
Got it now. ;D
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Right
so we know that Abraham b 1856 is Emmanuels brother.
I'm lost now! I thought Abraham b. 1856 was Emanuel's son - did Emanuel also have an Emanuel?
Added: Samuel & Hannah had an Abraham 1852 and an Emanuel 1855, but I've only got an Abraham 1856 for Emanuel & Susan
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I have found a Philip & Catherine in 1841 - I was dubious cos all the kids are wrong, but if you think they are passing their children round I will put it here so you can see it
1841 ST BOTOLPH WITHOUT ALDGATE
Phillip Phillips 40 tailor - foriegn
Catherine Phillips 35
Elizabeth Phillips 16
Godfrey Phillips 13
John Phillips 6
Nancy Phillips 4
Rose Phillips 2
Ann Phillips inft
Lewis Raphael 23
Catherine Calow 55
Abraham Lee 25
Jane Lee 65
Joseph Lee 65
Maria Lee 15
Debbie
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Oh boy this is the problem with so many same named generations.
1881 Census which I am sure is the right family.
Phillip Phillip head un 26 b Spitalfields, Middx. Cigar Maker
Susan mother widow 56 B Whitechapel
Abraham brother un 23 b Middx City Cigar Maker
Jacob brother un 21 b Middx City Cigar Maker
Isaac brother un 19 b Middx City, Tobacco Operator
Catherine sister un 17 b Middx City Tailoress.
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I'm lost now! I thought Abraham b. 1856 was Emanuel's son - did Emanuel also have an Emanuel?
As of the 1871 no.
It was his son Jacob/John who had another Emmanuel my grandfather.
Dont think I have made this very clear.
There are as far as I now just 3 Emmanuels in total.
Emmanue lb 1828 who married Susan Palmer
Emmanuel b 1854 son of Samuel and Hannah Levy
Emmanuel b 1889 (my grandfather) son of Jacob/John and Emma Louisa Ayrton (My Gt. Grand parents.)
Is that somewhat clearer
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I am not convinced :-\ if it is them where are thier own children. ???
And those seem nicely spaced out at 2/3 year intervals as was the norm.
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oh lovely i wish i had more time to study it.need to run this hunt again sometime,there at last is a coonection to my jews.dear godfrey phillips.rember your naming pattern.try and write out 3 generations or 4 in rough.how many brothers called their sons after the grandad?then their granchildren were called after themselves.you should see quite a few names repeating themselves through every other generation.impossible to work out sensibly with out seeing it written.there was 1 marriage to a levy mentioned. the other levy witnesses may just be rabbis maembers of the synogue.just a pooibility.didnt a phillips male marry the levy woman?no name cahange there to be expected cause they named after male grandad.the children of the woman would not become part of the priestly line of levy even though jewish peranthood is traced through the women.heriditory is through the male..just to confuse you further if man dies his brother or one of them is expected to marry if possible the widow or at least take her and the kids into his home and care for her as is own. cathay b
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Got a visitor coming soon, I'll try and get back later - just to finish off with for now, remember the Caroline Phillips 1841 & her children, sharing a household with a Rebecca Phillips age 40 b. county and a Mary age 80 b. county? (HO107/710/3/45/18).
Rebecca was also a Fruiterer, same as Solomon (he of the weird address).
I wonder if Mary age 80 is the last surviving common link of the 1841 Phillips contingent, if we could find out anything about her?
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Hi Cathyab :D
I dont think Michael Phillips who married Abigail Martin is related to me.
Samuel I believe is. His marriage was in the Great Syngagoue Chamber, St. Lukes Place. according to the rites of the Jewish Religion.
Both used thier marks .
Witnesses :- Aaron Hendricks. Mark Mark, Simeon Oppanheimer for the Gt. Synagogue something which I cannot read.
I am gonna take a break myself, brain is going round in circles.
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reading through i can see no connection to your family and michael pohillips.he may not even be a jew.see ya later.cathayb
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Witnesses :- Aaron Hendricks. Mark Mark, Simeon Oppanheimer for the Gt. Synagogue somthing smothing which I cannot read.
Hi Patrish,
I'm not bad at handwriting - would you like me to give it a go?
my visitor's late, but due any second - see you later :)
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Hi ..have collected some info ..just to have it all in one place so we can refer to the children's DOB...
Emanuel Phillips and Susannah Palmer family:
1851 ... Emanuel with Mother catherine and Brother John (1820)
No trace of them ,as yet , in 1861
these are Emanuel and Susan/nah children in 1871;
Philip 17 b c 1854 cigar maker
Abraham 15 1856 cigar maker
Jacob 12 1859 = Emma Louisa Ayrton
Isaac 10 1861
Catherine 6
all kids except Philip born City of London
1881
Phillip Phillip head un 26 b Spitalfields, Middx. Cigar Maker
Susan mother widow 56 B Whitechapel
Abraham brother un 23 b Middx City Cigar Maker
Jacob brother un 21 b Middx City Cigar Maker
Isaac brother un 19 b Middx City, Tobacco Operator
Catherine sister un 17 b Middx City Tailoress.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Samuel Phillips and Hannah Levy;
no sign of Samuel in 1851
1861 census
2 Kings head Court Spitalfields London
Samuel Phillips born Not Known ( Hawker) 32
Hannah 32 (Hawker)
Phillip 10 b 1851
Abraham 9 b 1852 = Abigail Martin
Emanuel 6
Kate 4
Angel 2
Hannah and Children are listed as being born in Spitalfields
1871
7 Bell Court, Christ Church
Samuel Phillips 39 gen . dealer
Hanah 39
Philip 20
Abraham 18
Emanuel 16
Katey 14
Angel 12
Benjamin 10
Mark 6
(on the same page , a 3 Bell court there is an Abigail Martin LOL )
1881
28 Gloucester st
Samuel Phillips 50 gen dealer
Hannah 49
Angel 21 cigar maker
Benjamin 18 cigar maker
Mark 16 cigar maker
John 14
Michael 12
Sarah 10
Martha 8
Joseph 6
Charles grandson 2
1891
101 Ernest street, MEOT
Samuel Phillips 66 hawker b London city
Hannah wife 68 b LC
Sarah dau 20 cigar maker b LC
Martha dau 18 " " "
Joseph 16 son shipper cigars b St georges
1901
MEOT 44 Grove st, south Grove
Samuel Phillips 72 clothier porter
Hannah 70
Philip son 22 fruit carman?
all born Spitalfields
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Thanks for that Deb usa,
I havent got the 1891 do you have the reference please.
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Pat
I have amended the summary with the 1881 census ...who does the grandson belong to , I wonder.
looking for the 1891 ref ...bbs
deb
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1891 ref for Samuel and hannah
RG12/307 111 43
;D
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On the 1901 I have added to the summary ...Samuel and Hannah have a son Philip , single 22 ...Who is he??...could he be a grandson?
deb
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Hi all,
jumping in with not much idea of what's what...
Emmanuel Phillips marriage to Louisa Fortune 1869,is he ours???
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hi Hepburn ...nice to see you :)
I have no idea if he's ours ... If he's a cigar maker then there's a high probability LOL
deb ... ;D
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I am afraid not. :(
Emmanuel Phillips b 1828 "married" Susan/Susannah Palmer (no legal one found)
Emmanuel Frederick b 1889 married Emma Louisa Ayrton 1882 My grandparents.
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can't seem to find much of Emmanuel and his family in 1891
this is a possible for Abraham b 1856 ( he has changed his age at times )
1891
40 Langdale street
St Georges
Abraham Phillips head mar age transribed as 30? cigar maker b Whitechapel
Emily wife 29 artificial flowe maker
Florence dau 6
possible marriage:
Abraham Phillips = Emily Cox
sept q 1882 Bethnal Green
there is also an Isaac Phillips single 24 Hawker b Whitechapel ...can't remember where he was living ...arrgghhhhh
deb
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can't seem to find much of Emmanuel and his family in 1891
Emmanuel b 1826/27 was deceased in 1876 . I suppose Susan must have died between 1881 and 1891 :-\
Isaac is a tobacco Operator in 1881 .
I think looking forward we must take our leads from the 1881 which I know to be correct. ;)
How do I know that, well Jacob/John has the same address on his marriage in 1882.
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Hi Pat
okay so this is 1881
1881
Phillip Phillip head un 26 b Spitalfields, Middx. Cigar Maker = died 1876
Susan mother widow 56 B Whitechapel = must find her death betw 1881-1891
Abraham brother un 23 b Middx City Cigar Maker = poss. married Emily Cox
Jacob brother un 21 b Middx City Cigar Maker = Pat's direct family
Isaac brother un 19 b Middx City, Tobacco Operator = ??
Catherine sister un 17 b Middx City Tailoress. = ??
did you see the Philip living with samuel and hannah in 1901 ...see summary ...who is he ?
deb
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yes Deb but I have not traced any grandchildren yet only the ones of my direct descendant John and Emma Louisa.
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Hey all, i'm back! Have not had much time for this recently! Shame on me :'(
This may help, unless we already have it?
1851
8 Hutchison Avenue, St Botolph Aldgate, Middlesex
Isaac Abrahams - head - 40 - Logwood cutter - London
Martha Abrahams - wife - 40 - General Dealer - ditto
Maria Abrahams - dau - 13 - house servant - ditto
Israel? Abrahams - son - 9 - ditto
Joseph Abrahams - son - 7 - ditto
Mark Abrahams - son - 2 - ditto
Angel Abrahams - 6mths - ditto
Abraham Levy - lodger - unm - 17 - Porter - ditto
Sarah Martin - lodger - unm - 9 - ditto
Maria Martin - lodger - unm - 7 - ditto
Samuel Phillips - lodger - mar - 18 - General Dealer - ditto
Hannah Phillips - lodger - mar - 19 - Turner? - ditto
Phillip Phillips - lodger son - 1 day ;D - ditto (got to be the best way to find when he was born)
Samuel Joseph - lodger - 40 - Hawker - ditto
Sarah Joseph - lodge - 38 - ditto
+ 3 Joseph children and James Agar aged 41 (born at sea) + wife and 2 kids
HO107/1524 folio 246 pg 56
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Hi David
long time no speak hope you have been keeping well,
i am pretty much stuck on this hunt finding births etc i just can't seem to do it!
am looking though
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does that bring ?? phillips marriage to the martins girl back into play?
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Well done David :D
Thats def Samuel & Hannah Levy, and true to form, first son a Philip.
Hannah's occupation looks like Furrier to me. :-\
It would seem that the Phillips, Levy and Martins are a very close bunch.
I really not sure Cathayb ......... Abigail Martins father was Aaron Martin.
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1891 ref for Samuel and hannah
RG12/307 111 43
I cant pick this up on Ancestry ??? is that where you found it ???
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That ref works ok for me on ancestry didn't enter the page number but Phillips were in the list
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aeron matin eh.good biblical name.probably related somewhere along the lines if not close.i like that theyve gone into furs.is that what a furrier means?my nan went into selling furs aswell and made alot of money.trouble is she lost it on the horses,oh well
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Yes that right Cathayb easily confused with a Farrier ;D
I will try the reference again,
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Ureeka I finally got them in 1891 :)
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yey Pat ! ;D
hiya david ...so great to see you and well done on finding young Philip :D
deb
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Hi!
Could someone post a recap of what we are currently looking for? Sorry, but work has me so slammed I'm not keeping up.
Thanks!
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hey badge ;D ;D
I am just off to bed ... I think Patrish would love to find the marriage between Emmanuel Phillips and Susannah Palmer (patrish has birth certs to confirm susannah Palmer) ... they all lived in and around Whitechapel ...first child Philip born 1854.
Emmanuel with his mum Catherine and brother John in 1851 ...we cannot find Emanuel and Susannah in 1861....pooffff they have gone ;D
refer back to my summary
deb with "Lacrosse/children with attitudes" headache ;D
night night .... 8)
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A quick recap from me :)
I dont think we will ever find the Emmanual/Susan Palmer marriage as I believe they never legally married , her not being of the Jewish faith , I forgot to mention at the start that I have even looked at marriages by licence and non conformist.
I am going to check the death of Catherine Phillips, Whitechapel 1859 and the marriage of John Phillips to Mary Ann Lamond in 1852 at the Met Archives next month. to see if they hold any clues.
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Hi Pat
still early morning here (7;16am) , coffee time ;D
just a thought ... what Emmanuel and Susanna decided to marry later in their relationship ....it just seems strange that they would keep on having kids and not get married. I know it used to happen but somehow I keep on thinking that because he was religious ( an assumption :-\) he would want to make his kids 'legal'.
need more coffee and will resume the hunt .. 8)
deb
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when two persons of different denominations marry one party usually has to give up their faith and become the other persons faith, in which case there shoudl eb a record of them being 'taken in' by that church in this case synagouge,
perhaps Emmanuel / Susanna did legally marry but it wasn't recognised by the respective churches / synagouges etc.
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he def. married Susanna did he :-\
i keep coming back to this marriage
Q3 1869
Pancras 1b 197
ACTON Catherine
FORTUNE Louisa
PHILLIPS Emmanuel
WHATTON Benjamin William
too late for your's isn't it but i thought i would ask
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Hi Toni,
Yes, according to 2 of the childrens birth certificates one being my gt grandfather Jacob/John b 1859
Father Emmanuel Phillps mother Susannah Phillips formerly Palmer
He is on the 71 and 81 census as wife Susan.
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i thought as much ::)
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WOW! Google Emmanuel PHILLIPS and this scavenger hunt comes up at least twice! Just a little factoid to make your day....
I'm not finding them marrying any time between Mar 1838 and Dec 1858 ...
Sorry I'm useless....
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The first marriage I find for an Emmanuel PHILLIPS is the same one toni found.
They would have married late enough that it would be a civil registration, if nothing else.
Going the gypsy route, could she have been something other than PALMER at the time of marriage? Could she have previously married and that is the name under which she married Emmanuel?
None of which makes any sense when the earliest marriage (after Mar 1838) for an Emmanuel PHILLIPS is 1869 ... RATS!
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Badger..................google your people and your Scavenger Hunt will come up as well.........great isn't it ;D ;D ;D
Barbara
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Hi ...
back from the dentist...Katie had no cavities ...woohooo ! ;D
found this on national Archives ...wonder if he belongs ...
Online Document PROB 11/1083
Will of John Phillips Grocer Spitalfield , Middlesex . Will of John Phillips Grocer Spitalfield , Middlesex
Date: 1781.
Being that they most probably made money ... I wonder why there are not more wills on NA ?
deb
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PAT ......
Look what I found on NA ....
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/494/1008838
Insured: William Palmer 3 Lamb Street Spitalfields cheesemonger
Date: 1823.
didn't you say Susannah's dad was a cheesemonger ?
deb ;D
added~ arrghhh just seen Susan's dad was John and Not William cr*p! :-\ 8)
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oooo ...found John Palmer the cheesemonger
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/513/1063143
Insured: John Palmer 57 Whitechapel cheesemonger
Date: 1827
.
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/508/1045972
Insured: John Palmer 57 Whitechapel cheesemonger
Date: 1826
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/503/1035145
Insured: John Palmer 57 Whitechapel cheesemonger
Date: 1825.
deb ;D
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Well done Deb.............pat on the back for you ;D ;D ;D
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thanks Barbara :) ...pity I couldn't find a will for him ... will keep looking ...
deb :D
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You'll find it........I have every confidence in you........... ;) ;) ;)
Barbara
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;D ;D
here is a little more ...different date;
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/511/1076896
Insured: John Palmer 42 Shadwell High Street cheesemonger
Date: 1828
this one is a LONG time ago .....seems that John may have had gggrandads/gr grandads/dads/brothers who were all cheesemongers ...maube a family business that started wayyyyyy back ...look at the date of this one ...
Chancery: Extents for Debts, Series I C 131/254/13
Debtor: John Palmer, cheesemonger, William Dixon, tailor, and John Somer, merchant haberdasher, citizens of London. Creditor: Robert Bromsted, citizen and stockfishmonger of London. Amount: £13 5s. Before whom: William Brown, the elder, Mayor of the Staple
Date: 1507.
deb ;D
no will for John yet ..but a wills for other Cheesemonger Palmers; Maybe John Palmer and Susanna Palmer's great grandparents etc ....
Online Document PROB 11/745
Will of Thomas Palmer Cheesemonger Newgate Street , City of London . Will of Thomas Palmer Cheesemonger Newgate Street , City of London
Date: 1746
Online Document PROB 11/716
Will of Christopher Palmer Cheesemonger Thames Street , City of London . Will of Christopher Palmer Cheesemonger Thames Street , City of London
Date: 1742.
Online Document PROB 11/869
Will of William Palmer Cheesemonger Thames Street , City of London . Will of William Palmer Cheesemonger Thames Street , City of London
Date: 1761.
Online Document PROB 11/457
Will of Samuel Palmer Cheesemonger Saint Mary Le Bow, City of London . Will of Samuel Palmer Cheesemonger Saint Mary Le Bow, City of London
Date: 1700.
deb
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Thats a whole lot of info about the Palmer's, why cant the Phillips be like that. ::)
I have already considered the fact that perhaps Susan Palmer had been married before but used her maiden name on the births as they were not married but given her age on the 71 census, she is a little older on the 81 I think this unlikely and I have looked for another marriage but how could I tell if I found one.
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here's some more ....
not sure if our people ...but rather have the info than not ;
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/485/980038
Insured: Philip Phillips 53 Whitechapel Road dealer in marine stores
Date: 1821
this is the same road as John Palmer's cheesemonger...he was at 57 whitechapel Rd.
This is Nathan Phillips' will ...I know Pat said that she doesn't have connections with Solomon Phillips s/o Nathan ..but you never know ...maybe the will would give clues as to who belongs to who ... Amended ... It's not his will arrghhh
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/464/899994
Insured: Nathan Phillips, 49 Petticoat Lane, dealer in clothes Other property or occupiers: butcher
Date: 1814.
I think Petticoat lane was next to Swans Court on the censuses.
ooo ...could this be Catherine Phillips ... remember 1841 Brambletye found a Caroline that could be Catherine ...mother of Emmanuel ... look at occupation...
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/512/1074975
Insured: Caroline Phillips 31 Upper King Street Bloomsbury dealer in tobacco and snuff
Date: 1828.
deb
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do you think this is how the Phillips and Palmers got to know each other ?
Online Document PROB 11/792
Will of Samuel Phillips Cheesemonger Saint Dunstan in the East, City of London . Will of Samuel Phillips Cheesemonger Saint Dunstan in the East, City of London
Date: 1752.
;D...sorry Pat ...still no wills for your Phillips people except the above ...will keep on looking
deb :)
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Well done Deb, :D
I am of the mind that the Philip Phillips at 53 Whitechapel Road could well be mine and John Palmer the Cheesemonger, I have also thought that the two families may have met that way.
If anyone can locate any deaths of Philip Phillips in roughly the right areas, I could check them out at the LMA also if Catherines draws a blank.
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Pat
Is there any naming rule for the 2nd son .... Emmanuel had a son , Abraham b 1852 ...I have found this will ...but don't know if it has relevance ...
thought I would post just in case:
Online Document PROB 11/2156
Will of Abraham Phillips Outfitter Shadwell , Middlesex . Will of Abraham Phillips Outfitter Shadwell , Middlesex
Date: 1852
this is interesting .....
Community: Jewish Community
Maroon leather-bound album containing cuttings from Anglo-Jewish newspapers c 1892 to 1911 relating to distinguished Jewish men and women, institutions, events and buildings in Britain and abroad.....
Page 159, 'Men and Women of Mark' newspaper cuttings album, reference Title : C 1997.1.p159
portrait photograph of and reports on Privates Abraham and Emanuel Phillips
what do you think?
deb
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Dont think there was anything about 2nd son, Cathayb would be able to tell us that. :D
The biggest problem I have is there are so many Phillip's all with the same christian names and occupations. ::)
My lot all seems to have been involved with the tobacco industry
The book sounds very interesting I would love to read it, I wonder where I could ??? :D
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hi Pat
here is the link ...
http://www.movinghere.org.uk/search/catalogue.asp?RecordID=73569
deb :) :)
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Oh thanks Deb, I will look into that. :-*
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Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/485/980038
Insured: Philip Phillips 53 Whitechapel Road dealer in marine stores
Date: 1821
this is the same road as John Palmer's cheesemonger...he was at 57 whitechapel Rd.
deb
So if we think that is the correct Phillip in Whitechaple rd in 1821 this entry from 1846 could well refer to his son Emanuel - its a very specific occupation
PHILLIPS, Emanuel
marine store dealer 15 Little Coram St Brunswick Sq
P O 1846
Debbie
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If only they were more precise on the census's instead of just putting General Dealer ::)
I think its a very strong possibility with both of the names and there are not many Emmanuel's around.
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Hi Debbie
good find .... :D
general dealer is kinda 'general' .... I agree Pat , if only they had put their trade on the censuses.... I have looked on NA for Tobacconists... not many ...only Caroline pops out !
will look further
deb
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sorry to but in again,but how do you get information on wills in that area.you will need to be precise.what site,what i put in to bring it up as i am quite stupid and probably senile aswell by now,thanks a billion cathayb
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Hi Cathay
Go to this link and on the top right hand corner it gives you a place to search ... I usaually put in a name and an area and wait to see what pops up ;D ;D
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/?source=home
deb
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Deb,
I never have any luck with the Nat Archives site, its get me totally confused ::) but that quite easy. ;D
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Hi Pat ..
It's great ... glad you have figured it out! ;D sometimes I use just surmanes and the area ...eg; with the Phillips family ...I would put in ...
* Phillips, Spitalfields
* Phillips, Whitechapel
* Phillips , Middlesex
or
*Phillips , dealer, London
Hope you find a will ... :D
deb
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PAT ..... LOOK... :o
FILE - St Mary, Whitechapel: Philip Philips: Accidental death: Thrown from chaise when horse took fright - ref. MJ/SPC/E/1519 - [n.d.]
deb
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Hi Pat ..
It's great ... glad you have figured it out! ;D sometimes I use just surmanes and the area ...eg; with the Phillips family ...I would put in ...
* Phillips, Spitalfields
* Phillips, Whitechapel
* Phillips , Middlesex
or
*Phillips , dealer, London
Hope you find a will ... :D
deb
If you find a Will and it's in rotten old handwriting, let me know - I do that for a hobby, goodness knows why... ;D ;D ;D
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hey, Deb found my 2 x Gr grandfather was kicked to death by a carthorse ... do you think she has some sort of magical link with deadly horses or something ?
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Lydart ... hee hee .... did you get a laugh out of it ?
I used to think I had a way with horses ... err ,,, now not too sure ...
deb ...not the horse whisperer :P
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Well ... I don't know Deb, you found a horse for Patrish and one for me ...
(Thanks for the PM)
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Now thats very interesting Debs, was there any date given ???
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Hi Pat ...no dates ... but can order from NA ...I will try to find the link for Philip Philips and that spooked horse.... sounds like he had some money if he was in a chaise ... ;D
gosh that's right Lydart ...maybe I am calling them ... wish I could find someone in my family whose death would be on NA ... :-\
deb
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Hi again
here's the link ...
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/records.asp?cat=074-mj_2-18b&cid=1-1-220
deb
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Deb............will you see if there's a horse in there with Ernests name on it's rump??
Barbara
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.
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Pat
;D
deb
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Hi Patrish
Not sure if this any help, there are a few Phillips on this "Jews' Free School Admission and Discharge register"
http://www.movinghere.org.uk/deliveryfiles/LMA/LMA_4046_C_01_004_0153/0/1.pdf
and I think one on this register
http://www.movinghere.org.uk/deliveryfiles/LMA/LMA_4046_C_01_004_0137/0/1.pdf
Julia :)
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The naming convention goes like this, deb (I don't know if Jews adhered to it or not):
1st son: Father's father
2nd son: Mother's father
3rd son: Father
4th son: Father's eldest brother
5th son: Father's second oldest brother or mother's oldest brother
1st dau: Mother's mother
2nd dau: Father's mother
3rd dau: Mother
4th dau: Mother's eldest sister
5th dau: Mother's second oldest sister or father's oldest sister
Lord knows what happened with the sixth son or daughter.... ;D
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Hi Badge doll ;D
Thanks for that ..I must say that would make life easier when searching ...at least you would know the grandparents/ gr grandparents etc names ...
need a refill
deb :D
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Hi everone,
I have just been going over this thread from the beginning and marking what I need to do at the Met Archives. :)
I keep asking myself, as someone lse did, I cant remember who right now ::)
Why did Emmanuel and Susan Palmer never marry :-\ it would seem to buck the trend with his brothers , in as much as we know at the moment.
They were both in the early 20's when Phillips was b in 1854 so I don't see how either could be widowed.
Perhaps we should see if they married later in life, I had not done that .
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Hi Pat
I have looked at 1841 again ...and I cannot see Emmanuel anywhere ...he is driving me nuts .... :( >:(
I think I asked yesterday about them maybe marrying later in their relationship ... It just seems to go against everything that he would not marry her and make his children legal ...
will look for later marriages ...
deb :)
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do you want to know something about jewish courtship?the betrothal is very long,maybe they could nt wait to consumate!!!also they might not have known how to make marriage legal in this country.where did they eventually marry.was there a synagog there in 1841?just a thought.just passing through be back later.cathayb
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Hi Cathayb
Unfortunately I have never found one for Emmanuel and Susan :'(
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Hi Pat
Have gone through marriages ... cannot see any .... The only susannah that pops up is Susanna Plowman (1854 marriage) ... I looked for marriages of a susanna palmer to a mr. Plowman ... nothing ....
deb :-\ :'(
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just a bit og gen.the rabbis didnt have to inform the english registrars of a jewish marriage until 1845 so unlikely to find a marriage befor then.the other thing is you will get a marriage cert previous to that at the beth din london but it will be in hebrew and there is a fee.the only good thing is that though it will have their jewish names on it,it should also have their english names.have you noticed on jewish certs they include the jewish names near the bottom of cert?a jewish marriage is a complicatd affair.they would not only have to produce bith certs but proof of perants marriage aswell and proof that the perants and they were jewish or produce jewish conversion cert.a mixed marriage is not allowed.they would have to prove conversion.there woukld also be a contract set up between the man and woman at the ceremony. cathayb
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bearing all that in mind its quite easy to see why there may not have been a legal marriage particularly if an uncle was not keeping a close eye on his nephews or neices here without their perants.and were they born in this country anyway?both of them?
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Both born in Whitechapel
Cathayb this is an extract from the researcher at the Beth din.
"I am sorry to report that although I searched the registers of all the Ashkenazic Orthodox synagogues serving London in th 1850's whose secretaries had the authority to perform marriages, I did not come across the Phillips-Palmer entry you require"
While is could be that this couple had a "stille huppah" (lit.silent canopy) i.e a ceremony under private religious auspices without civil sanction."
Does that make sense to you ??? and if they did would the be legally married :-\ I read it as not .
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Both born in Whitechapel
Cathayb this is an extract from the researcher at the Beth din.
"I am sorry to report that although I searched the registers of all the Ashkenazic Orthodox synagogues serving London in th 1850's whose secretaries had the authority to perform marriages, I did not come across the Phillips-Palmer entry you require"
While it could be that this couple had a "stille huppah" (lit.silent canopy) i.e a ceremony under private religious auspices without civil sanction."
Does that make sense to you ??? and if they did would the be legally married :-\ I read it as not .
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Sorry but I cant seem delete the above duplicate post ???
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yes they would be legally married under jewish law but not english
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Hi
So Emmanuel (and Susan) would be 'legally' married according to Jewish law but Susannah would be deemed 'living in sin' by her family...
Would the children have been brought up in the Jewish religion if their mother was not a Jew?
deb :-\
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Ah :D ................. so that may be the answer as to why there is no record :-\
No Debs I dont think so :-\
Jacob/John did not marry into the Jewish faith either, niether did his son Emmanuel Frederick my grandfather.
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Hi Girls :)
I think that is your answer Pat. That's when your branch split off from the family faith.
A love match, how romantic ;D
Good detective work there ;D
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no to have any sort of ceremony they must have both been jews at the time or converted jews.it was not registered with the english registrar though for reasons i dont understsand.i doubt whether any english people would understand whether they were married or not!!!i dont think you can have a pretend marriage in any denomination.
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i dont think this family were very devout jews anyway.they proably did nt know any othert way when they came here,but its obvious they lost jewish ways of religion if not naming patterns fairly quickly.to be truly jewish is all sorts of probs back then,kosher cooking equipment,kosher washing equipment not unlike romany customs but kosher meat would have been difficult if they travelled at all,they would have to worship and no work from sundown friday til sundown sat and then with our no work sundays it would be a long time with out selling if your poor already.oh all sorts of probs.i expect they tried to bring their kids up jewish in the ways that mattered to them but i dont think they were particularly holy jews!!!love cathayb
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Fagin was jewish too!
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;D I dont think my Phillips family were particulary "holy" about anything ;D
Hi Genie,
You bear a remarkable resemblance to my aunt in Seattle :D
Pity the love match did not continue, Jacob/John I heard from a descendant was a harsh man and my grandmother kicked Emm Fred out , I never met him :(
I found his death reg 1967 . ::)
I have never boiled the kettle so much as I have done these past few days ;D ;D ;D
Know I know why it is that I love a bargain so much ;D
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I WAS WONDERING IF YOU WOULD GET ROUND TO THAT.I HAVE A BIG NOSE,HAVE YOU?its bacause of the free air my girl free air. we jews love a bargain and we are supposed to be hard bargainers to boot.you rarely meet a poor jew except me.always an exception to the rule and it had to be me!!!! :'( :'( :'( :-[ :-\ :( >:(
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Just a point of interest.....
I grew up in the east end of London (Walthamstow). Up until the 1950, or there abouts, there were many, many Jewish families trading in the markets.
Indeed, one of the most famous markets, Petticoat Lane, the main trading day was Sunday as the Jews didn't work on Saturdays. It was the same in Walthamstow market, in that the shops and stalls run by orthodox Jews were not open on Saturdays. The Jewish bakers were close on Saturday but did a roaring trade on Sundays (fresh bread ;D).
I also had a good knowledge of the fruit & veg wholesale market of Spitalfields and the wholesale meat market of Smithfield where kosher meat was always kept separate and overseen by rabbis to ensure it was not contaminated by contact with non-kosher products.
At the same time, the non-orthodox Jews did trade on Saturdays for as long as I can remember ;D ;D ;D
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Cathayb.
No I dont ;D and I only have one picture of my grandfather so it very hard to tell.
I am definintely no haggler, I wont even visit countries that do, how sad is that :o
I do spend quite freely but I do like to get value for money, so I suppose I am half and half ;D
My grandfather and mother were quite wealthy when they lived in Paris, but grandfather got involved with the commies in the war and had to flee to Romania. When they came back to England they were as poor as church mice.
A pocket edition of my FH on my mothers side ;D
. .
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ah ha,friday night!! all out on the town again i see.same happened to me patrish,not much happens on a fri night.after all the excitment bit of a let down isnt it.never mind they ll proberly be back tomorrow(with hang overs)love cathay
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I am still around :D
After the first flourish I notice its getting leaner, I expect they are all fed up now. ;D
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they ll be back but not quite as keen as before,theyve done their work,have you enjoyed it and have you got any new leads?
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Not any new leads really but they might come to light with the look ups I now need to do at the Met Archives, fingers crossed.
I have really learnt a lot , much more than I ever thought possible :D
I feel as though I am speaking directly to you , sitting there so relaxed with your cuppa ;)
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Hi Patrish
Here are the whole list of school registras
http://www.rootschat.com/links/02zq/
Moderator Comment: Very long link shrunk using http://www.rootschat.com/links/
Oh gosh the link is rather large!
Julia :)
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new post interesting.i wish i was relaxed an d had a cuppa.husband screaming hes a computer widower.dog wants to go out.i am tired and i have had a fruitless evening looking for my roms.i am back to the 1700s so i should not complain but i am a bit fed up as trying to tie up loose ends.stay in touch wont you?its so nice to meet another romany with jewish connections like myself.i thought i was one on me own!!ah well off to bed.its been great helping out on your hunt.let us know if you find anything in your further searches.love cathay
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Hi everyone.
This weeks Scavenger Hunt.............Hepburns 'Second Chance' I know you'll have fun with this one.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,293136.0.html
As usual, this hunt will remain open for any more information which may come in.
Barbara
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i wasn't very much help,
must try harder next time!
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Toni I do believe everybody was brilliant. It was a hard nut to crack, but you all did your very best and I think a sizable chunk was hacked out of this particular nut.
Well done to all of you.
And to Cathay for her superb knowledge of the Jewish faith.
Barbara
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Hi Everyone who searched for me.
I paid £60.00 to have the Jewish records searched which have revealed little :'(
There were no baptisms of the children and no marriage of their parents. ::)
Thanks again for all your help guys it was much appreciated.
Patrish.
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Hi,
Hope I'm butting in the right place here I've been looking for Krakofsky/Bennett b.1912 11 Eenest St. S.W.London, he changed his name to Bennett 9/10/1945 (before his son Brian was born my kids father) his siblings were Sarah, Harry, Jacob, Samuel and Irene.
Joseph's parents were Barnett Krakofsky and Fanny Karpin they were from Poland I think Warsaw.
Cheers
Ladylil