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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: colliersbairn on Sunday 09 March 08 15:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I've been doing my family tree for some twelve years or so. I've been lucky to visit New Registry House once to get started but now I am reliant on Scotland's People and any help I can get. My dad was born in Falkirk but his family, the Penmans, have lived around the area since at least the mid-1600's.
I'm looking to get past two brick walls. My first one is Janet Iset who married William Penman. I've been happily subscribing to the notion that her parents were James Izat and Bessie Crocket and that she was born in Aug of 1751 in Tulliallan. I've now discovered there were two Janet Izat's. The other one was born in 1755 to William Izat and Elspet Coult. I suspect they were cousins as the children on both sides have identical names and to make it worse the Izat/Crocket connection had all their children christened in Tulliallan but Izat/Coult only had one, Janet. All the Izat marriages in Culross seem to be from the Izat/Coult couple so I know they had more children. I've looked up the marriages of the two Janets but no indication of who their parents were. They both married Penmans, one William the other Richard. Unless there is a monument inscription out there, or a kirk sessions, I think I'm stuck.
The second brick wall is Alexander Penman who married Jean Strang or Strong on 15 Oct 1748. He called his first born Duncan and his second daughter Marrion which would indicate the parents were Duncan Penman and Marion Cowen. However, I cannot find a christening for Alexander to that couple. I suspect Jean Strong's parents were Abram Strong and Helen Cowan. Were they possibly cousins?
Any help or suggestions are appreciated at this point.
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Hello "Colliersbairn",
It may seem strange to you that an elderly man living on the Mornington Peninsula south of Melbourne in Australia would have any interest in the Izatt's, Crockett's, Penman's, Coult's and Strangs in Scotland. How wrong you would be! Every one of those names forms part of my Family Tree.
If you go on to the Fife Board of RootsChat you will see that I have written extensively on these families and still continue to do so - every day. What you need is a helping hand, and perhaps the first step would be to read the postings that I have made, recognise the individuals that I write about, make a note of them, and then join a team that is truly dedicated to helping people like yourself.
Let me give you an example:
William Izatt married Margaret Simpson on 21st August, 1778 at Culross in Perth.
His father, William Izatt married Elspeth Couts on 8th February, 1755 at Tulliallan, Perthshire. His Grandfather John Izatt married Agnes Allan at Tulliallan, Perthshire, on 21st November, 1718. His Great-Grandfather, Thomas Izatt married Bessie Smith about 1680 at Torryburn in Fife.
Elspeth Couts father was Thomas Couts who married Isabel Stewart (Stuart) on 25th November, 1726 at Tulliallan in Perthshire. Her Grandfather was James Couts who married Elizabeth Hunter on 28th November, 1687 at Tulliallan in Perthshire.
Elizabeth Strang married Archibald Cook on 30th June, 1837 at Aberdour in Fife. Her father was John Strang who married Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt on 16th November, 1804 at Dunfermline in Fife. Her Great-Grandfather was Charles Strang who married Isabel Cunnan on 27th June, 1776 at Dunfermline in Fife.
I bet you're asking yourself how an Aussie could give you all that information in such a short space of time. Well, I'm not an Aussie, I'm a Scot who was born in Kirkcaldy, Fife and knows the county like the back of my hand. After my birth at Kirkcaldy, I lived at Auchterderran in Fife and at the end of World War II lived not all that far from Falkland Palace, which is nestled at the foot of the Lomond Hills in Fife.
Many of my family on my mother's side, the Livingstone's still live in the Cowdenbeath area of Fife.
So there you are, a brief rundown of who I am and where I came from. You are more than welcome to contact me on RootsChat or send me a message off-line, and I will be delighted to hold out a helping hand. I spend most of my time helping out people from different countries around the world and I derive quite a great deal of pleasure in doing so.
I hope you enjoy my postings on the Fife Board and I look forward to hearing from you.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hi,
I have recently discovered I have the Isabella Izett dob 1774 in my tree. She
married William Simpson a coal miner dob 1773. Isabella's parents were
John Izatt, Tulliallan, Perth dob 1748 and Margaret Rankine, Tulliallan Perth
dob 1749. I also have an Isobel Penman, Auchterderran, Fife further up the
tree.
I was wondering whether you have any of these in your trees?
Tab11 P.S. The names are the same but I can't seem to fit your dates in...
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Hello Tab11,
Nice to hear from you and for your continued interest. It would appear that there are quite a few connections.
Sometimes it makes sense to log your findings onto blank charts that you can download from the Internet. These will show not only the paents, but all the children too. I usually end up with quite a neat little pile at the end of a session on the computer, but the object of the session is to gain a clearer understanding of the family!
Don't try to do too much all at once, which was one of my cardinal sins when I first started on my Family Tree. If you were to start off your session today, select one, or maybe two individuals, say, Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt who married John Strang on the 16th November, 1804. Now, on your blank Ancestral Charts you will pencil in William Izatt who married Margaret Simpson. Do a Parent/Children search and that will tell you details of their children. Go back a generation and you will have four names to contend with - William Izatt/Elspeth (Isabel) Couts and William Simpson/Janet Campbell. Back another generation and you will end up with eight names to contend with: John Izatt/Agnes Allan, Thomas Couts/Isabel Stuart, George Simpson, Ann Kerr and James Campbell/Elizabeth Burley. When you do a Parent/Children search on all those couples you certainly will end up with quite a neat little pile of forms.
With all the birthdates, birth places, etc., you will have gained quite a bit of interesting information. As you work with your Search Engine, you will sometimes see on a birth detail, who their spouses eventually were, and so you can pencil that data in, and so on and so forth.
Don't try to force it too much, because you will eventually hit a few snags. Don't worry too much about that at this early stage. All that you're trying to do is paint a pretty broad canvass. The fine details can be added later.
I usually scribble in little queries that I want to take up, and so I do that using a red biro - it stands out and reminds me of what I want to do! I will guarantee that you will be really pleased at the end of your session because, at the end of it, you will learned something that you hadn't noticed before. Honest Injun!
Never forget that you're among friends, (and sometimes family members!) who are only too please to help you out.
Kind Regards,
Tom
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Thanks for the reassurances. I think that's where I am - too many names, too many dates and all whirling about in my head.
I think what you were trying to tell me (after reading all the posts) that I should look not only for people but naming habits. I won't call them patterns as it isn't a pattern but more of a habit. For instance - my grandmother named her middle daughter Minnie and if any of the family actually liked her or her name the name Minnie would be carried on in it's purist form - Minnie. My grandparents never knew or never thought to ask what it was short for - Williamina in this particular case. My grandfather wanted her named after his favourite aunt as he had no sisters.
Now in the case of Bessie, it could be short for Elizabeth/Elspeth/Isobel or Beatrice and the family may have collectively forgotten what it was short for, just that their favourite aunt/sister/sister-in-law etc. was called Bessie and they wanted to honour her by giving her name to the new baby.
Tom, it looks like you and I are related on several different levels - I have Sharps as well. Jane Sharp born about 1815 who married James Rae in Bothkennar - their youngest was Joseph Sharp Rae but that's for another list and another time.
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Hello "Colliersbairn",
Absolutely correct! The naming patterns or habits have come to my rescue many, many times. Sometimes when you're doing a bit of research you will come up with several options as to where to go to next. In those cases, I usually do a Parent/Children search and plonk the printouts down on my desk side-by-side. I then look at the names of the children, and in a lot of cases, it helps enormously.
If you have forgotten how those naming patterns or habits work, you will find them on the Fife Board, and they were put on not so long ago. My own family stuck to those habits through thick and thin until fairly recently. My wife and I didn't go through with it to the tenth degree, by any means, but preferred to have our our own choices. My two daughters were christened Debbie Marie and Andrea Marjorie. To the best of our knowledge there weren't any Debbie's or Andrea's on the Family Tree. However Marie is my wife's name and Marjorie her sister!
In many cases, the records that I look at simply don't show the Middle Name of an individual, more's the pity. However, just look at the difference when the Middle name is shown:
Alexander Burt christened 11th February, 1776 at Falkirk, Stirling.
John Burt christened 1st September, 1787 at Falkirk, Stirling.
George Brown Burt christened 8th February 1784 at Falkirk, Stirling.
Alexander Brown Burt christened 27th January, 1782 at Falkirk.
Andrew Burt christened 21st September, 1794 at Falkirk.
If you were working with two or three options and one of them had the names George Brown or Alexander Brown connected to it, which option would you show a keener interest?
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hello again, "Colliersbairn",
As well as being connected to my ancestors, it would appear that you are also connected to our good friend, "Beansgram" from Pennsylvania in the good old US of A! Just have a look at her postings to me on the Fife Board!
I thought that you may care to look at the following naming patterns/habits that we have been discussing. As well as that, "Beans" will see another possible connection leap out at her like Dracula from the grave!
Robert Penman married a lady by the name of Isobel Baxter in Auchterderran in Fife.
Their children:
Isobel Penman christened 12th January, 1701 at Auchterderran in Fife
Robert Penman christened 17th January 1703 at Auchterderran in Fife
Jean Penman christened 24th June, 1705 at Auchterderran in Fife
William Penman christened 24th October, 1693 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Henry Penman christened 25th April, 1696 at Auchterderran in Fife.
The Henry Penman mentioned above mentioned a lady named Christian Dryella on the 11th of June, 1737 at Auchterderran in Fife. What's the betting that "Beans" will leap in like a saber-toothed tiger and say, "Tom, I bet that should be be spelled Drylie!"
Henry and Christian had the following children:
David Penman born 12th June, 1741 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Robert Penman born 22nd July, 1744 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Alexander Penman born 11th April, 1747 at Auchterderran in Fife
Jean Penman born 22nd November 1752 at Auchterderran in Fife.Gilbert born 4th June, 1754 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Margaret Penman born 13th January, 1756 at Auchterderran in Fife.
John Penman born 25th May, 1758 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Betty Penman born 22nd August, 1761 in Auchterderran in Fife.
Charles Penman born 15th March, 1763 at Auchterderran in Fife.
Just look at those names that I have highlighted in red. Grandparents, Parents and so on and so forth. Coincidence or naming patterns/habits?
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hello again, "Tab11",
If you look at my latest postings, you will see that I have made mention of what I believe to be "your Isobel Penman, born in Auchterderran in Fife." A person who is shown on the postings as "Colliersbairn" appears to have a great interest in this side of her family too.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention that some of the postings appear on the Perthshire and Clackmannan Boards!
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hi Tom and Colliersbairn,
Thanks for your advice, it is always useful to hear other researchers experiences. It does become confusing when you jump from one line to another.
I was wondering whether either of you have had a look at the
Tulliallan church project restoration? If you google in Tulliallan it will take you
straight there. I mention this because there are graves with many of the
names we are researching. I did find some of my ancestors there and intend
to go to Scotland sometime this year.
Thanks again Tab11
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Hello Tab11,
Many thanks for that, and I'm pleased to see that you are doing a bit of quiet reflection on what can be done and how it can be done. I wasn't aware of the restoration work being carried out - (I don't see things like that in the Australian newspapers!), but, it seems like a damned good idea to me, that some of our friends on RootsChat who live near the church could take a few names from our postings and take a few details from the gravestones.
Just think, if other people, living near other churches or cemeteries did the same thing, it would certainly make a massive dent in that problem of pre-1855 deaths!
As I've said before, I sense a nice fresh wind blowing through RootsChat, one where people are beginning to come forward who are prepared to become involved in various projects. Nobody expects people out there to become "instant experts" on the subject of Family History. What we are seeing is a group of people trying to assist one another - and importantly, doing it with a good heart.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Okay, I've began to compile family group sheets and the first thing that jumped out at me was who was where and I could still be wrong on the Janets but here it goes. I noticed that the family of James Izat and Bessie Crocket (parents of Janet 1) stayed in Tulliallan. Every single child was christened there. However, the family of William Izat and Elspet Coult (Janet 2) travelled. Their second child William was christened on the 5 Feb 1758 in Alloa, Clackmannan and the last one I could find, James was christened 24 Apr 1768 in Clackmannan, Clackmannan. On checking the parish register for Airth, Stirling where William Penman was christened, I found a William Coult and Lilias Malcolm married in 1772. William Penman and Janet Izet were married in 1774. It's possible that Janet visited her Uncle William (William Coult b. Oct 1743 to Thomas Coult and Isobel Stewart) and new wife and met William? There are no other Izats or Crockets associated with Airth. I did the reverse for Penmans in Tulliallan. The Penmans in Tulliallan I don't think are mine. All Richards, Georges, Davids. Not names in my family tree.
So, after all this I'm of the opinion that my Janet Izat is the daughter of William Izat and Elspet Coult not James Izat and Bessie Crocket. However, I'm swimming uphill to the "official" Penman genealogy as written by Eric Edwards who states otherwise. Yes, the naming pattern would suggest that Janet's father was James. The William Penman/Janet Izat family though is atypical. The first child was Alexander b. 1775 in Airth, the second children were twins (1777). If both father and grandfather were named William, the name would have to skip this pair. I think the parents opted for both their brothers' names and the brotherly disciples James and John. There is now an eight year gap in the children. I tried looking up Penmans in Airth - Jeans, Duncans with only William as the father and no luck. Maybe Janet was in ill health after twins. At any rate the fourth child was called William, then Robert. The first girl was called Marrion and the second Elisabeth. I found this surprising. The first daughter should have been Elisabeth, the second daughter Jean unless there were children born in the eight year gap and either not baptized or they died before baptism.
That is as far as I can go at the moment as I'm running out of steam. Any input would be appreciated.
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Hello "Colliersbairn",
I think that most of us on RootsChat can well understand your frustration. However, I'm sure that most would agree that you are going through quite reasonable steps to resolve the problem. I sat down this morning and took out my own family records with the thought that maybe if I set out some details from own personal records, it may help. I'm pretty sure that if other ancestors of thse families did the same, we may arrive at an amicable conclusion.
(1) My Izatt line ended with the marriage of Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt to John Strang at Dunfermline in Fife on 16th November, 1804. I am perfectly happy with their descendants who came down to my Grandmother, Elizabeth Livingstone, Maiden Surname, Hepburn. So, the first step is not a problem to me.
(2) There is little doubt in my mind that Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt's parents were William Izatt and Elspeth (Isabel) Couts. I noted, (and I emphasise this) Elspeth's family, (the Couts), came from the Tulliallan area.
(3) How about the Izatt's? Well, this is where I have similar misgivings to your own! I see the Izatt's being born and marrying at Torryburn, which isn't all that far from Tulliallan in Perthshire, or Culross, which was also in Perthshire.
(4) I went back to Thomas Izatt, born about 1656 at Torryburn in Fife and married Bessie Smith at Torryburn round about 1680. I even checked on Bessie Smith, and she too was a local lass, also being born at Torryburn.
(5) I then looked at their son, John Izatt, and sure enough he was born at Tulliallan and married Agnes Allan on the 21st November, 1718 at Tulliallan. I did a similar check with John's wife, Agnes Allan. Where was she born? A mere couple of miles away in that pretty little town of Culross! That looks pretty sound to me.
(6) Now the piggy in the poke! It is assumed that the William Izatt who married Elpeth (Isabel) Couts was the son of John Izatt and Agnes Allan. The problem for me is, which William Izatt? On my notes, I have very little detail apart from a very brief, "Born about 1730 at ALLOA, CLACKMANNANSHIRE" Of course, it's a possibility, but, as you can see, the chain has been altered from previous generations.
(7) It appears to me that although the marriage of Elspeth and William took place at Tulliallan, the couple went back to William's birthplace, ALLOA, IN CLACKANNANSHIRE because it was there that their son, William Izatt (Junior) was born on the 5th February, 1758.
(8) Now it looks as if William Izatt (Junior) met a young lass from Culross - she had been born there on 31st October, 1745. Her name was Margaret Simpson. Instead of marrying at ALLOA, CLACKMANNANSHIRE, the couple chose to marry at CULROSS on the 21st August, 1778.
(9) Four years later, the couple would appear to have settled at CULROSS, because their daughter, Elizabeth (Betty) Izatt was born there on the 1st January, 1782. She went on to marry John Strang, a young man from Dunfermline. the couple married at Dunfermline but it would appear that they chose to live at coaltown of Fordell, Dalgety to the east of Dunfermline. Possibly because the family were coal miners?
(10) John and Elizabeth's daughter, Elizabeth Strang, was born at coaltown of Fordell, Dalgety about 1817 but married Archibald Cook from a place in Dunfermline called Townhill. Elizabeth eventually died on the 29th of January, 1890 at Fordell, (you can check that fact on the Death Certificate, and whilst about it, check for parent details!) Twenty years previously, her husband Archibald Cook had died in Cowdenbeath. (Again, you can check his Death Certificate and have a look at parent details!) Elizabeth and Archibald had married at the seaside town of Aberdour according to the records, but I often wonder if that is quite correct since some of the locations around Cowdenbeath are sometimes referred to as being in Aberdour!
(11) To be quite frank, I am a little unsure about the precise date of my Great-Grandmother's birth date and birthplace. However, I know very well tht she married my Great-Grandfather, David Hepburn who was born at Leslie - not all that far from Cowdenbeath and Fordell!
Well, there you have it. What is needed is input from other descendants of those individuals so that we can all compare notes. I have tried to give an honest and matter of fact run down on events based on my own personal records. If other people out there are happy to help out, then I'm sure that we would be delighted.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hello Colliersbairn,
One cannot help but feel sorry about the confusing data that you're working from. Exactly the same kind of problems were being experienced by a lady living in the United States. I mentioned to her that a visit to her local LDS Family History Centre may help her enormously because there she would be able to access many CD's that contain far more detail than can be found on the Internet. I had a message from her a short time ago, and she tells me that she has purchased some of these CD's, and that I was right - the information on them is terrific. I also mentioned that she may be interested in purchasing a CD of the Fife Death Index.
Now, I know that there are some people who swear by certain Search Engines, and have problems with working with LDS material. I certainly wouldn't want to be drawn into a discussion about the pro's and con's of that. I'm simply stating it as it is. I'm perfectly happy to look at data from many sources, and when necessary, compare what the various sources are saying.
I have no connection whatsoever with the LDS, but, if there are people out there on RootsChat who have discs that are supplying them with far more information than can be obtained on the Internet, then I see no harm in them communicating with you "off-line".
Maybe you would be interested in requesting people on RootsChat to give you a friendly chat about what resources they have and how they may be used. Again, it's only a thought on my part and is in no way intended to push you in any particular direction. I simply like to help people out as much as I can, and so, when people send me a personal message extolling the virtues of certain discs, naturally I'm interested.
As you would know, one of the finest Scottish Genealogy sites around is ScotlandsPeople. One of my very good friends on RootsChat who lives in Lanarkshire has often given me invaluable information obtained from this great site, and I cannot thank him enough for that. Well, here is another thing that may - just may, be of some assistance - discs from the LDS and the Fife Family History Society.
I look forward to seeing the reaction from other researchers out there on RootsChat, but please, remember that I'm only trying to help a fellow researcher.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Thanks so much for your input. I actually think I'm on the right track and I think you've hit the nail on the head. These families were miners and they did move around. It was the only way I could think a young man from Airth would meet a girl from Tulliallan. I don't know if there was a bridge across the Firth at that time or not or whether the bridge went through Alloa instead.
I was using the Family Search site as I've used enough credits on Scotland's People lately. I don't want to go bankrupt. I did find an interesting development and one that should encourage everyone to double check their sources. I originally found the christening of an Elizabeth Crocket on 10 DEC 1721 Tulliallan, Perth, Scotland in the LDS records. It was an extracted record so I thought I was safe. However on cross-checking with Scotland's People, it wasn't there! I printed off all the Crocket females christened in Tulliallan between 1720 and 1731 and she wasn't there. I don't know who slipped up there and whether it was a transcription error or a missed record.
In my travels, I discovered the christening of a William Izzate 27 SEP 1733 to a John Izzate and Agnus Allen in Larbert, Stirlingshire. It was an LDS submission though not an extracted record.
Got to go to work. See you!
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Hello Collersbairn,
I am sure you will have read my recent emails regarding the above family. I
was wondering whether you have any of the following in your tree:-
Isobel Penman dob 1728 - Auchterderran, Fife
John Izatt dob 1748 - Tulliallan, Perth
Isabell Izett dob 1774 - Perth
I have recently discovered them and am anxious to find out more.
Tab11
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Hi there,
I have a few "official" records to share:
For Tom:
William Izzate to John Izzate/Agnus Allan 27 Nov 1733 Larbert, Stirlingshire GROS:485/0010/0057 Frame 35
The only other one that might be of interest was listed as:
William Ozit to Will. Ozit 8 Dec 1731 in Crieff, Perth 464/0010/0035
For TabII
John Izat to James Izat/Bessie Crocket 18 Sept 1748 Tulliallan Fife 397/0010 0178
Isabel Izat to John Izat and Margaret Rankin 27 Nov 1774 Culross, Perth 343/ 0020 0510
I've tried using different fonts and colours here so I hope I didn't make a mess!
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Hello Tab11,
You may want to take a look at the other Izatt's in the Tulliallan aea of Perthshire for around those dates that you have.
As examples:
John Izatt born 3rd May, 1684 at Tulliallan, Perthshire. He married Agnes Allan on the 21st November, 1718 at Tulliallan and one of their son's was William Izatt born around 1730
The father of John Izatt, who married Agnes Allan, was Thomas Izatt, born about 1656 at neighbouring Torryburn in Fife. Thomas married Bessie Smith about 1680 in Torryburn.
It may pay you to look at the families of those individuals to see whether or not they connect to members of your family.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hey, I'm actually online at the same time...
I did a look-up on the William Coult connection I mentioned a few messages above:
Marriages Airth Parish - "William Coult in Tulliallan parish was married to Lilias Malcolm in this parish "
29 May 1772.
It must have been rather awkward with the bride in one parish and the groom in the other ;D
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Hi there: I have been getting DNA matches to surname PENMAN and I am especially interested in the family of Henry Penman and Christian Dryelly. My problem is that we don't' know the parents of George or David Penman, who ended up living in Prince Edward Island, Canada. Both names were recorded as arriving together in a ship that landed in Boston, USA in 1762. George died in 1804 in Port Hill, PEI, Canada and David settled in Lot 28, Tryon, PEI Canada. Another Penman descendant has thoroughly researched our ancestor, George Penman and it can be found at: https://www.janedyment.ca/ppl/f/4/c48252f63e396b5d8cc9d59d4f.html
My Gedmatch # is EP3933511 and I would love to hear from any Penman researchers. Thank you, Mary Cudmore
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Hi Mary,
It's Elizabeth here. Both my son and I have taken the autosomal DNA test. I can trace my ancestry back to William Penman and Janet Izatt. I checked both our DNA with yours and there isn't a match. It really is determined what autosomal DNA you inherited from your parents. I'm not getting very many Penman matches but I'm getting a lot from my Rae/Ewing line. They married into my Penman line.
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Thank you for your reply, sometimes research is also a process of elimination.
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I just went through the Roll of Edinburgh Burgesses and Guild-Brethren and I read the report your relative wrote. Your relative said that George, a shoemaker in Edinburgh couldn't possibly be your George as she can't imagine a shoemaker being a merchant. I came across the following in the above book - entered as Burgess 27 Oct 1742, George, cordiner (shoemaker), Burgess by right of his father Edward Penman Goldsmith. Edward Penman was an Assay Goldsmith and head of the Guild. Edward's brother James, also a Goldsmith had a son called James who was a chirurgeon and Major in the Gibraltar garrison. He was also entered as a Burgess. So you have a military and a merchant connection in the same family. They had money. Might be worth pouring over the Scottish Record Society books.
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Thanks for your reply. Our elusive George was also a Paymaster under Lord Rollo's British army when they were fighting at Louisbourg, Quebec and most likely PEI, (Acadia at that time period.) His list of effects after his death in 1804 contained many items that he most likely was a store owner. He also had two or three red English military uniforms. He was educated as he could read and write, so he must have been of upper class upbringing to have an education during the mid 1700's
However, we couldn't as of YET found any military record although somebody said the a paymaster wouldn't be classified as being a military person. He also had ships built in PEI and was a ship owner. I keep getting DNA matches to Hunter and some Patterson surnames so was hoping that would lead me back to Penman. A William Hunter was a neighbour to George Penman in Lot 13, PEI. There is an article on record at our University of PEI, which includes our George Penman at: http://vre2.upei.ca/islandmagazine/fedora/repository/vre%3Aislemag-batch2-559/OBJ
We don't know the relationship to George & David Penman but we do know that they both named two of their daughters, Elizabeth and Jane. That is why I was so interested in this post as the naming pattern was so similar. Is that site you mentioned free or a payment one? Thank you for your comments, it is always good to view other people's hints and comments. Take care, Mary Cudmore
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The site is "Internet Archive". It has digital copies of books from all over the world and it is free. They have a lot of the Scottish Folio Society books, family histories etc. It's a bit tricky to work.
https://archive.org/index.php
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Thanks, I am a member but not knowing what part of Scotland George may have come from makes it difficult to zero in on. I spent about an hour earlier this evening going through some of the searches on the archives site. Thanks again.