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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: wren on Sunday 02 March 08 07:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
Am in a quandary My ggggg grandparents, Amelia Sophia Hawar and Joseph Henry Williams were married in Islington in the March quarter of 1843. They then had three children baptised at St Clement Danes, Westminster, London on 21st July 1848. Children were Amelia, Joseph Thomas and Mary Jane. Amelia and Mary Jane came to Australia where they married and had families. However, no family groups appear to neatly fit the arrival of Amelia and Mary Jane and no single passengers seem to fit the age and time, particularly for Amelia. One ship The Herald of the Morning fits the age of the two girls, but the other names listed have no relation to my current information. Whilst I haven't discounted this I need further information.
From this arises two other issues, firstly where does the surname Hawar come from? I've been searching for quite some time and seem to be getting nowhere fast for an answer to this question, and secondly could someone suggest where I might go to find some information on Joseph Thomas if he remained in England?
Regards
Wren
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Do you have census information?
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Hi Sue
I did a search of the census and couldn't find anything, but thats not to say it isn't there.
I'm mainly wondering where the surname Hawar originated. I though maybe the middle east as there is a Hawar resort in Bahrain. Just not sure.
Thanks Wren
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1841
HO107/686/17 - Finsbury, Liberty of the Rolls
Folio 11, Page 16
Serles Place
HARWAR
Thomas - 40 - law writer
Amelia - 15
Jeffrey - 15
Thomas - 6
John - 30 - law writer - not born in county
William Maclaine - 15 - law writer app.
On studying the 1841, the name seems concentrated in Middlesex and Cheshire.
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Pallots marriage index has the following
Thomas Hawar = bachelor
Sarah Arundell - spinster
St. Martin Vintry, London = 1825
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Hi,
I hope you don't mind that I am linking this to your earlier thread so people can see what's already been found,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,287091.msg1701176.html#msg1701176
As to Amelia Sophia HAWAR, I wonder if this could be her on the IGI :-\
Amelia Sophia HARWAR
Christening: 31 MAR 1822 Christ Church, Southwark, London
Father: Thomas HARWAR
Mother: Sarah
and a brother,
Jeffery HARWAR
Birth: 22 MAR 1824
Christening: 18 JUL 1824 Saint Dunstan In The West, London
Father: Thomas HARWAR
Mother: Sarah
and in 1841,
1841 HO107/686/19 f.11 p.16 St Clement Danes, Middlesex
Serles Place
Thomas HARWAR 40 Law Writer
Amelia 15
Jeffery 15
Thomas 6
John 30 Law Writer All born in County except John
Oops, Sue got there first :)
Regards
Daisy
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;D ;D
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The above family lost some children young. :'( :'(
Charles Lees HARWAR
Date of burial: 13 March 1831
Place of burial: St Dunstan In The West
Age at death: 1 Year 4 Months
Address at death: Serle's Place (In Fetter Lane)
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Henrietta Augusta HARWAR
Date of burial: 29 April 1838
Place of burial: St Dunstan In The West
Age at death: 1 Year
Address at death: Serle's Place (In Fetter Lane)
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Jane Eliza HARWAR
Date of burial: 31 October 1834
Place of burial: St Dunstan In The West
Age at death: 2 Years 1 Month
Address at death: Serle's Place (In Fetter Lane)
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Susannah HARWAR
Date of burial: 28 May 1826
Place of burial: St Dunstan In The West
Age at death: 1 Year 4 Months
Address at death: Searle's Place
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Hi Sue and Daisy,
Wow! Thank you for your kindness. I'll follow this lot up now. Boy if they lost all of these children it must have been devastating. I know infant mortality was huge but they look like they spent a great deal of time at the cemetery.
Just one last question was a law writer someone who recorded the law.
Sorry I'm just an Aussie who has little understanding of English occupation terminology.
Thanks again Wren.
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This looks like Thomas,
Thomas HARWAR
Birth: 26 JUL 1799
Christening: 18 AUG 1799 Saint Mary The Virgin Aldermanbury, London Father: Henry HARWAR
Mother: Ann
Thomas HARWAR
Spouse: Mary Jane BETTS
Marriage: 28 DEC 1844 Brenchley, Kent
Thomas HARWAR Dec Q 1844 Tonbridge v.5 p.679
Mary Jane BETTS with same details
1851 HO107/1512 f.480 p.3 Liberty of The Rolls
4 Searles Place
Thomas HARWAR Head mar 51 Law Stationer Middx St Mary Aldermanbury
Mary Jane Wife mar 35 Kent Bersted?
Mary Jane Daur U 3 Middx Liberty of the Rolls
Walter HARWAR Son U 1 " " " "
Chas Wm DOWDESWELL Ap U 19 Apprentice Middlx Hammersmith
Thomas John HARD Ap U 17 " " " " St Sepulchre
Edward HARRIS Ap U 14 " " Surrey St Mary Lambeth
Sarah FLETCHER Servant W 42 Domestic Servant Isle of Wight Cowes
Daisy
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There is also a marriage on Pallots
Henry Harwar of Liberty of the Rolls = bach.
Sus. Arundell = spin.
1819 = St. Clement Danes.
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So could this be two brothers marrying two sisters. ;D ;D ;D
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Also on Pallots
Henry Harwar = bach.
Ann Braddock = wid.
1797 = Southwark
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Hi Sue and Daisy.
I don't see why we shouldn't keep up the tradition. I already have three Gardner siblings marrying three Gilroy siblings. So why not keep up the tradition. All this infomration is just fantstic. I'm going to have to really sit down and absorb all this. Just another question, What is Pallots?
I've done a fair bit of Australian reserch but very little British.
Thanks Wren
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Do you have access to Ancestry.com as Pallots marriage index is on there.
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Hi Sue
Ah, yes I shall visit my local library tomorrow.
I've just been google earthing and map searching for st clement danes and st dunstans, they certainly appear to be in fairly close proximity.
Neither of them seem to be buiit in the traditional style. Its all very interesting.
Daisy the link you made, certainly streamlined the process.
Thanks again for your help.
Wren
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Hmmm...
Thomas HARWAR married Sarah ARUNDELL in 1825 so who is the mother Sarah for the earlier baptisms of Amelia 1822 and Jeffery 1824, a previous different Sarah or could they have been christened to the couple before their marriage :-\
Daisy
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Hi Daisy
I'm pleased that you posed that question because they were my thoughts. I'm really going to have to sit down and take a good look at the info and analyse what its saying.
Some of the dates seem a little baffling.
Thanks for your hard work. :D :D
Wren
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Hi Sue and Daisy
Just thought I'd give you a little update. Thanks to your wonderful help I' ve been to the library and discovered a host of information on Jeffery Harwar and family. They certainly were prominent in the area of Law Writing. Will assimilate this info and then make the next group of connections.
Thanks again ;) ;)
Wren
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Hi Sue and Daisy
Have had time to sit down and juggle the numbers tonight. To answer your earlier question Daisy it seems to me that Amelia and Jeffery were born prior to the marriage of Sarah and Thomas. Thomas and Mary then went on to have another four or five children, the last being born in 1837.
Sarah does not appear on the 1841 census so she is obviously dead by that time. Whether she died in childbirth or of some other misfortune is open to conjecture.
Thomas then goes on to marry Mary Jane in 1844. Mary being sixteen years his junior gives him another two children.
Amelia by this stage is married to Joseph/John Williams and starting a family of her own.
These dates seem to neatly fit. I hope I'm on the right track.
Boy what a saga.
Thanks again for your help
Wren :P
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Found one other burial, so don't know who this little chap belongs to. :'(
Charles HARWAR
Date of burial: 11 May 1853
Place of burial: Golden Lane
Age at death: 9 Months
Address at death: 22 Carey Street, Lincoln's Inn
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Did you find Henry Harwar and Susannah (Arundell) on the 1841.
If not they are here.
HO107/724/3 - Holborn St. Andrew
Folio 31, Pages 54 and 55
Tooks Court
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Hi sue
I'll have a look at the census to see where Charles fits in. Henry, I haven't quite tackled yet but I will have a look for them after work today.
I also need to further research the origins of the Harwar name. Perhaps Welsh, not sure.
A surname almanac may provide some answers. I can see a visit to the state library coming up.
Came across an interesting entry for the 1600s which said that a Samuel Harwar merchant of London had originally owned a sixteenth share in the Mayflower and had sold it.
Will salt this piece of information away until I can either prove or disprove any relationship.
Regards
Wren
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Marriage Licence Allegations Index - Vicar-General 1694-1850
29 Mar 1819 /HARWAR / ARUNDELL
24 Dec 1844 / HARWAR / BETTS
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This is great thanks Sue
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Hi Sue and Daisy,
Wow! Thank you for your kindness. I'll follow this lot up now. Boy if they lost all of these children it must have been devastating. I know infant mortality was huge but they look like they spent a great deal of time at the cemetery.
Just one last question was a law writer someone who recorded the law.
Sorry I'm just an Aussie who has little understanding of English occupation terminology.
Thanks again Wren.
I have a law writer amongst my ancestors - in the days before typewriters, they were attached to lawyer's offices and wrote out legal documents, contracts etc for signature. Many were freelance/self employed.
Jez
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Hi Jezz
Thanks I had done some research and looked up various books and had found no definition, so thats great. Now I know exactly what they did.
Regards
Wren
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Hi wren
I am researching family history for an elderly relative, and her great grandfather on her father's side was Jeffery Harwar, whose sister was - as far as I can make out - your Amelia :) I came upon this thread by chance when googling the name Harwar together with Williams (Jeffery's son Samuel married a Sarah Williams). I am connected to this relative on her mother's side. I hope you get this message, as I realise the thread is 3 years old, and I'm new to Rootschat so not quite sure how it works! If so, would love to hear back from you and share any info.
Here's hoping to hear back
Carole
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Hi Carole
This is very exciting. The Harwars and their law writing and their law writing have been somewhat elusive to me. There is certainly some further mystery concerning Amelia and Joseph. The wonderful rootschats ladies have helped me uncover much concerning this family. I am only too happy to share with you what I have.
Regards
Wren.