RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Danuella on Friday 29 February 08 20:26 GMT (UK)
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Hiya,i'm trying to help my cousin trace her romany roots and althugh i've been doing it for nearly a year i have barely anything and just dont know where else to look!!
Heres what ihave
Vira Smith father Amos smith married Thomas Smith father Thomas smith in 1912 ashbourne
I also have a found Vira and Thomas childrens birth
I cant find anything else on Vira anywhere all i know is what her grandaughter remembers which isnt much and no else knows anything!!
oh and she was 22 at the time of her marriage,all were hawkers.
I can find no trace of vira or her fatehr amos on any census and no birth record for her.
Any advice on where to go from here wold be fantastic
Thanks
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Hi and welcome to roots
Can you tell us where Vira was actually born, as I would hope she may be on the 1901 census, and there is a few with same name.
Any more information would be great
Jane
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Hiya Jane thanks so much for the reply,unfortunatly i havent got a clue where she was born,all i have is what i've posted which isnt much at all.I have looked at 1901 and 1891 census but none of them seem to fit,apparantly she had a sister and some brothers but there seems to have been some split in the family as no one seems to know anything at all,even viras daughter in law,which i found surprising but apparantly she never mentioned her family.
Sorry i havent got anything else.
Warmes wishes
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Hmmm a puzzle, you say married in Ashford, is that the one in Kent?? Do you have the marriage certificate, it may give a clue with the witnesses of the marriage maybe a brother or sister ;D well you can hope eh!!! Maybe you could a wild card and look for them without using the surname, I will keep looking - maybe tomorrow before I can post again
Jane
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hi Jane yes i do have the marriage cert
they married jun 24 1912 in ashbourne derby,sorry she was 24 thomas was 28 and the witnesses were isaac holland and another holland looks like barnet? holland
,they lived old hill ashbourne
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Argh sorry Ashford dear me find my specs lol will look again
J
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lol,oh also apparnatly one of their daughters married a henry holland who was her cousin??
Danni
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How about this marriage, possibly the parents of said cousin ?
Henry Holland sept qtr 1885 Rotherham vol 9c pg 717 with Vira Smith on the same page
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Hi everyone
i Have just found these families..
1901
Hartington, Ashbourne Derby
TENTS
Amos SMITH head mar 29 travelling cutlery grinder b Leics, morning??
Annie Jane wive 19 b newcastle , Tyne
Amos son 9 b Staffs, Barleston
Micheal son 1 b Derby Mercaston
next to them in Tents;
MacKenzie HOLLAND head mar 50 cutlery grinder b Leics. Shasfold?
Annie Maria wife 46 b Leics, melton Mowbray
Thomas 13 son b derby.
Spizella 9 dau b warwick, Coventry
John 6 b Notts
they seem to be in the right place ...
will look for more
deb
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it looks most likely that Annie Jane , Amos' wife , is his second marriage ...There is this reg;
Belper, Derbyshire
Amos Smith= Annie Jane Freeman
mar q 1900
vol 7b p 779
deb
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Well spotted, Deb, they've been driving me mad. Think that birthplace is Mount Sorrel.
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They are driving me a little nuts too ;D
Where is Vira ? :-\ :-\
deb
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just realised I found this entry earlier which could fit as you've found the younger Amos
1881 Caravan, Millington RG11/3508 folio 16 pg 26
Amos Smith head mar 37 horse dealer & hawker b. Burton-on-Trent
Alice wife 30 b. Norfolk
Amos son 13 b. Staffordshire
Joseph son 3 b. Cheshire
Horace son 10 b. Warwickshire
Mary dau 7 b. Warwickshire
Luill(?) son 11 months b. Cheshire
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hi again
just found this ;
1901
Bradley all saints, Ashbourne , Derby
The Park
Thomas SMITH head 63 licensed hawker b leics, banow?
Sarah Ann wife 60 b Leics, Melton Mowbray
THOMAS son 19 Licensed hawker assist b Derby, Bretby
Sabrina dau 17 " " " b Staffs, Stapenhill
Woodfine son 14 b Staffs, Cheadle
Celty dau 12 b Staffs, Ulloxeter ?
I wonder if the above Thomas is who married Vira?
The Park
Peter Smith head 22 Licensed hawker b Staffs, stapenhill
Phyllis wife 26 b Derby, Brailsfield
Dufrus? son 3 B Derby, Sudbury
Emily dau 2 b Staffs, Uttoxeter?
Ezzie son 5 months b Derby, ??plow
deb
just seen your post Osprey ...will read
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I'm wondering if this is Amos in 1871?
Travelling Van, Marton, Cheshire RG10/3678 folio 71 pg 6
Silvester Smith head mar 26 travelling hawker b. Northants, Southgate
Alice wife 23 b. Northampton
Amos son 5 b. Staffordshire
Horace son 3 b. Staffordshire
Laura dau 1 b. Staffordshire
There's an Amos & a Horace anyway?
???
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eeekkk ...I am getting confused with all these Amoses ...hee hee
deb ::)
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it might have just got worse! In 1891, there's a Sylvester Smith aged 44, born Burton on Trent in Parkside County Asylum, Macclesfield, Cheshire RG12/2816 folio 114 pg 10, occupation - gipsy with van.
Could Amos senior also have been known as Sylvester?
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think this might be the brother Horace in 1901
Caravan, Crews Rd, Sandbach, Cheshire RG13/3352 folio 64 pg 13
Horace Smith head mar 32 horse dealer b. Stafford
Martha wife 30 b. Lancs, Rochdale
Lena dau 11 b. Cheshire, Altrincham
Vestar son 8 b. Cheshire, Wilmslow
Horace son 5 b. Altrincham
Alice dau 2 b. Northwich
next to, and also in a caravan,
Job Smith head mar 25 hawker hardware b. Wilmslow
Sarah wife 21 b. Staffs, Newcastle
Harry son 3 b. Altrincham
Clara dau 6 b. Cheshire, Crewe
Clara Griffiths 13 domestic servant b. Staffs, Hanley
Wonder if Job is the one enumerated as Joseph in 1881 in Millington, Cheshire.
I can't spot them in 1891, so don't know if they have a sister Vira. It could well be that they are the sons of a different Amos Smith (aka Silvester) as there are several Amos Smiths around.
:-\
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Wow what can i say apart from thankyou all so much,I did find thomas and thomas in ashbourne 1901 and suspect that is possibly him,and also i thought there may be a link with vira and henry holland too but cant find it!!
I did find the marriage record for viras daughter and her cousin henry and also his birth record and yup mmn is smith,but which one,lol!!
I have been trying so hard to find this lot and just havent got anywhere(apart from banging my head against the wall,lol)
Just found out apparntly Vira was turfed out of her home approx age 9 and sent on the road?she was taken in by her sister sophie or a name similar but dont know how true that is?I ahve to say you lot are pretty skilled at all this gypsy lark you've found out more then i've been able to
Also just found Viras death after 6 months of searching,sheslisted as Venus Smith and the age is out by a couple of years do you think this is likely?
Warmest wishes
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Hi
back again ...had to go out fot a bit ....
So the 1901 below could be vira's family, especially if she was b c 1888 and was 'tossed' out. Wish we could find her in 1891. Will have a look for a Sophia Smith.
another thought . maybe Vira left the family when her dad married Annie Janie ... :-\
1901
Hartington, Ashbourne Derby
TENTS
Amos SMITH head mar 29 travelling cutlery grinder b Leics, morning??
Annie Jane wive 19 b newcastle , Tyne
Amos son 9 b Staffs, Barleston
Micheal son 1 b Derby Mercaston
hey good job ..Opsrey ;D I also had thoughts of Slyvester = Amos especially with wife Alice ...although Alice has different POB in the census ... But with travellers that sometimes happens, :-\
deb
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Thats a really good possibility as no one knows why vira was tossed out,her grandaughter says her sisters name was something along the lines of sophie/sophia/zafara?
unfortunatly she cant remember exactly!!
I am so stumped as to why she just doesnt seem to be on the 2 censues she should be on!!
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Hi Danuella
i come from a very large Gypsy Family ...the Penfolds who married into the Holland family. Sometimes we just have to face the fact that they will not be found in all the censuses ...mine are missing in quite a few. they travelled a lot and so it was very easy for the enumerators to miss them on census night.
This is another thought.
Amos who is 9 with amos snr and Annie Jane in the 1901 most probably is the child of Amos' first wife and a sibling of Vira . I wonder if we could find Amos' birth reg ... which would reveal his mothers maiden name . He was b c 1892, staffs.
There is this one;
Amos Smith June q 1891, Walsall Staffordshire
deb
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Thanks Deb definatlt sounds like a possibility to me and now i come to think about it viras grandaugter thinks she came from where the potteries are around staffs!!she also thinks vira may have had brothers but shes not sure!!
I have to say the birth f amos 1892 does seem to fit in quite well doesnt it
Hugs
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probably completely wrong but could vira be abicavena d/o amos & hannah smith? i cannot find abicavena anywhere other than her baptism. her brother, napthali, was my gggrandfather; his son, napthali had a daughter, laura, with amadine booth (my ggrandparents). if you think this is possible, please contact me to swap info. best wishes, lino.
ps. napthali senior married boyrementa holland. aka wymenty, ryerdunty et al
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Births Sep 1895
Smith Vira W. Derby 8b 436
I think this could be your birth. A few years out but we all know that a lot of our gypsy rellies were a bit vague about ages!
Viramenta/ Viraminta as a name crops up a few times in the Smiths and Hollands. In fact, Lino, certain researchers suggest that Byrawenly was in fact Viramenta Holland.
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c6m/
I have just found this news story re Vira and Thomas Smith in the Staffordshire Sentinel.15th May 1915.
You have to drag it around a bit and the headline is Van dwellers Quarrel. It mentions an assault on Vira's brother Nathan by Vira.
Cheryl
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hi cheryl, thanks for your reply. vira cannot be my gggrandma then because i have several pieces of evidence to show that she was born 1825 in waltham on the wolds and birth cerificates of several of her children. never mind though; it was just a thought especially when you are clutching at straws. i can only conclude that amos/hannah smith's daughter, abicavena, died before the 1841 census. ( she was born13/5/1833). i would be interested in hearing from you if ever you should come across her name in your research.
best wishes, lino
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hi again
just found this ;
1901
Bradley all saints, Ashbourne , Derby
The Park
Thomas SMITH head 63 licensed hawker b leics, banow?
Sarah Ann wife 60 b Leics, Melton Mowbray
THOMAS son 19 Licensed hawker assist b Derby, Bretby
Sabrina dau 17 " " " b Staffs, Stapenhill
Woodfine son 14 b Staffs, Cheadle
Celty dau 12 b Staffs, Ulloxeter ?
I wonder if the above Thomas is who married Vira?
The Park
Peter Smith head 22 Licensed hawker b Staffs, stapenhill
Phyllis wife 26 b Derby, Brailsfield
Dufrus? son 3 B Derby, Sudbury
Emily dau 2 b Staffs, Uttoxeter?
Ezzie son 5 months b Derby, ??plow
deb
just seen your post Osprey ...will read
Hi, the smith family @ The Park are my Gt Grandparents, they had a Thomas.....
regards Julie
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Hi Danuella
I know this is a fairly old forum chat but I am hoping that you are still an active user and will be notified of this post. I did try to private message you but I’m a new user so can’t do that until I have posted 3 times. I have been researching my family on and off for a while but also hit a brick wall for a long time when it came to the Smiths and can find no trace of them on the census. I only found this forum after a longshot of just typing names into Google.
I was wondering if you managed to find out anything else after this. I must be related to your cousin because Vira is my Great Grandmother so the granddaughter you are talking about is my dad’s first cousin. Up until recently all I knew about Vira is that she had an older sister who was called Sophia, who is also my Great Grandmother - my grandparents are the cousins you mentioned. I only found out that their father’s name was Amos recently because I finally found Vira’s husband Thomas’ service records which gave me their marriage date so I ordered the marriage certificates of both ladies. This is as far as I have got really apart from what I have now learned from reading this forum topic - the web link to the newspaper saying her brother’s name is Nathan/Nathaniel is news to everyone I’ve spoken to in my family. (Unfortunately I started researching after my nana had passed.)
I am willing to bet you have not found all of their children though as Vira changed her surname to Davies and the death you have is incorrect as she was known as Vera Davies when she died so this how it got registered.
Anything further you may be able to tell me would be greatly appreciated because I too have been banging my head against a brick wall!! And if you don’t mind telling me, who is the granddaughter and daughter-in-law you mentioned - I have a feeling I know who they are and it would be great to share any info.
Many thanks.
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My cousin is tracing her Smiths and we have the information you might be looking for..
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Thanks for replying, I am a new user and can't use the message facility until I have made 3 posts so I'll post again after this and hopefully then it will be available.
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I am new to this too