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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: SS from The Rhondda on Wednesday 27 February 08 22:11 GMT (UK)
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Plans have been re-submitted to destroy 16th Century Graveyard for a developer to build houses.
The Church in Wales can't afford to maintain the grounds, so have decided to sell.
http://www.tonyrefail.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1109
There is plenty of other land available for housing in the area.
From July 2000:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/843126.stm
What action can be taken to prevent such a diabolical act from going ahead ? Has anyone had any success in opposing such developments ?
Planning reference: 07/2195/13
Planning department e-mail: PlanningServices[---at---]rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [AT] with @
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Hi
I have not yet read through all your links , but I find it astounding that anyone would want to disturb these graves ...even more disturbing is that there is land available for the new housing development ...
This is so sad ...I do not have any ties with Wales ...all my ancestors come from Cornwall and Devon, Uk ... I would be willing to contribute to saving of these very old graves ...
deb
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What action can be taken to prevent such a diabolical act from going ahead ? Has anyone had any success in opposing such developments ?
Planning reference: 07/2195/13
Planning department e-mail: PlanningServices@rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk
I think it is disgusting that they could be allowed to even attempt to build on a grave yard and what will they do with all the head stones?
I do now that they don't know were all the graves are as the records goto destroyed, I will definitely be sending an email to the plan office to object, the thing is thought we have only got till the March 3rd to do it.
I also think that the more that email the plan office the more change of it not happening.
Please if you think its wrong then email.
Vicky.
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It might be worth while to try and get local geneaologists to take the information from the stones. May as well preserve the information if we can't save the graveyard.
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Petitions are no good - e.mail or write! and get everyone you know to do the same.
It's a fact of life today that nothingis sacred any longer...everyone's just chasing the money
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Hi everyone i live opposite the graveyard and have for over 10 years along with other residents and ones who have family buried there tried to have the graveyard tidied up. The Church say this is the best way as they have no money despite being told there are grants and lottery funding available for such schemes. In 2000 the council refused planning but on appeal they overturned the decision the reason being that the graveyard was included in the Local Plan as a site for future development for housing the council feared being hit with a massive claim for compensation, none of us had ever heard of this local plan otherwise there would have been objections. Only 2 months ago the local vicar said they had no plans to develop the site and that they would clean it up grass it over and lay the gravestones flat or move them to the local Church St Davids this is for health and safety reasons, we now know this to be a lie. If you have property next to the graveyard you have until 3/3/2008 to object, yesterday 28/2/2008 a poster was put up saying if you had objections you have 21 days from this date why the different time scale i do not know. In 1989 39 graves were removed and the road widened after people who have children attending the local primary school campained for a pavement as none existed this for their safety if this plan goes ahead this pavement will partly be removed for access thus making the children cross 3 busy road junctions and a busy access lane
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Rather late to campaign on this. As someone who has successfully helped with local campaigns before (not about cemetries, but the same sort of thing), I have a few suggestions.
Email your local MP and Welsh AM if you live in the area. They do take notice, but generally only respond to their own constituents. Try and get EVERYONE you can to do this. They (or their researchers) do take notice of volumes of mail on a topic.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItOnline/DG_4018047?CID=DG_FEB_08&TYPE=sponsoredsearch
http://www.writetothem.com/
I have used both these sites and they work and are safe. Write a short, pithy letter in your own words, add contact details even if it is an email.
Contact the local papers and/or radio and TV. They are usually desperate for news and just love stories like this. Best to phone the newsdesk (they will be there tonight and tomorrow am) or second best email them. Get as many people to do this too.
Contact your local councillors. Their phone numbers will be on the internet on the local council site. Call them tonight or tomorrow morning. That is what they are for.
Stress the late appearance of the notices, there may be mileage in this.
One or two people usually end up doing the donkeywork. We did it to get a 30mph limit - and we got it!! Also re broadband and to oppose a phone mast. Luckily for the latter we had a lawyer on board, she was brilliant.
I feel strongly that we have to stick up for what is right. A few local Mums proved that it CAN work. And it is fun.
I will email the MP to say I might have a relative there - I have not done my Welsh tree yet....
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This disgusts me and I shall be writing to the MP.
How do we expect to teach the generations that follow about respect, when there are adults now who are more interested in making money than respecting the dead and their families.
Very sad.
Su
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I tried to register to that site but no e-mail as yet. ???
Just a few things i can think of at the moment.
I suspect, that due to permission already been given in 1985. you may have hit a stumbling block. The best way to stop this, would be to find a 'point of law'.
You'll need to go through all the paper work from previous applications.
If anyone could go through archives of the church and land, area, deeds, titles, etc., to see if there's a covenant or other documents which prohibits building on the land.
People to get in touch with:
Cadw.
"Cadw is the historic environment service of the Welsh Assembly Government. 'Cadw' (pronounced cad-oo) is a Welsh word meaning 'to keep'."
"We aim to protect the historic environment of Wales by working with partners and private owners."
http://www.cadw.wales.gov.uk/
Prince Charles (for all, some people don't like him) he does keep banging on about protecting your heritage. Get a letter off to him, (recorded delivery) you might get his support or he might put you in touch with the 'correct people' to help.
Write to and try to get as many celebrities behind the campaign as possible, Tom Jones, Griff Reece Jones, Huw Edwards etc., You'll also get more media coverage this way.
I don't know if the welsh local elections are due, but if they are, get someone to stand as the "St Johns Church, Llantrisant Road Heritage Party" or something like that :P and get people to vote with their feet to show the council you mean business.
Regards
Rewcastle
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Hi all
I have just emailed CADW - you never know!
Decisions can be overturned if enough public opinion against the building on the graveyard can be raised - spread the word.
Su
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I tried to register to that site but no e-mail as yet. ???
hi rewcastle, im the owner of the forum. it seems my webpspace providers settings arnt 100% compatible with the new forum upgrade ive applied, as such emails arnt being sent correctly... i am doing something about it, in the mean time ive activated your membership manually so you can now post on there
i can also confirm that cadw have been contacted, and a formal aplication submitted to have the whole site listed
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Just an update on whats happening we contacted our local paper Pontypridd & Llantrisant Observer and made front page also Channel 4 news are coming Monday the 10th. The comments made by the Church have got to be seen to be believed first they say they have applied to exhume the graves and to sell the land for housing they then say that no decision has been taken on the future of the site well its sounds to me that they have, they then say they welcome ideas from family members they have been telling them for years A MEMORIAL GARDEN buts its fallen on deaf ears. Then say The Church in Wales would welcome any approach from Local Authority or any other group that would be willing to take over the graveyard for the community as a memorial garden or open space. Now they have not said if they would give the land or if they would still own it but after treating the knotweed cutting it down having plans made and submitted and applied to exhume they will want the money spent back plus interest that means selling the land for housing. In England when a churchyard becomes full the council take over the upkeep in Wales they do not they do not see why the taxpayer should foot the bill for what is still Church land. Councils in England are now looking to change the law as they want to do the same as in Wales. So if you live next to a graveyard and you think the same would not happen there you have been warned.
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were doing our best to get the church in wales to let us (that is tonyrefail.org and the tonyrefail history & folklore society) take over the graveyards care, after only recently discovering that it isnt st davids church i have to deal with, i formally applied to the church in wales on friday.
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Thanks for the update Greg 18 - and will keep eyes open for Channel 4
Su
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channel 4 news are now coming tomorrow afternoon to film due to the weather conditions they cancelled todays
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Hope the weather will be a little kinder tomorrow then - but good news all the same :)
Su
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This is a quote from a paragraph in a letter sent by the Church in Wales in 2000, This seems to be their stance on their buildings and churchyards.
The closure of church buildings and cemeteries is often a deeply upsetting issue However, as the Bishop of Swansea and Brecon, the Rt Rev Anthony Pierce, said recently, "Our ancient churches were built to be signposts of the Gospel and not chapters in an architectural handbook. They are meant to be spiritual powerhouses and not historial theme parks". This is equally true of graveyards.
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Wow! That's going to cause offence! :o
meles
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I have only just read this post on the demolishing of ST Johns Church & graveyard-I am shocked & sadden but not surprised the way of the world today finance & greed are all that seems to matter,in times gone by it would have been though of as being so immoral to build on the site of a graveyard.I know it is such a shame & shameful thing,I feel a graveyard especially an old graveyard is such a part of our history,our ancestors resting place.
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Re: Rev Anthony Pierces quote, I always thought graveyards were there as final resting places for the people buried there, where relatives could go to mourn and remember their loved ones, not as cashcows for the greedy, to be disposed of as and when they need a bit of money...... :(
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Hmmmm... bites tongue and thinks of words carefully.
So therefore is he saying that the church & grounds are no longer spiritual?
Would this be because the church has sold them?
The Rt Rev Anthony Pearce has an awful lot to learn about people, and the preservation of spirituality. About the people that are proud of their heritage, their ancestors and their spirituality; these people go on to promote such things in their own children and their children's children.
The people who want this Graveyard preserved are not asking for a pub or supermarket or themepark to be built there, they are simply asking for it to remain as or as close to a Graveyard as possible - for the bodies intered there to be treated with the respect and spirituality they deserved from the day they entered the hallowed ground.
I see no commercialism or money making in that!
It is little wonder that the 'Church' is losing its congregation - thank goodness God is not.
Su
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I objected to the planning authority last week, and got a reply, just to acknowledge it,really. It COULD be my relatives there.
With these things, the more fuss made, the better. Good luck with the filming.
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Hi all just a quick update Channel 4 news phoned me today to say it would be shown on Saturday evening may i also thank you all for the support it is very much appreciated
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And well done to you Greg18,shall be watching with interest on Saturday,fingers crossed all go's well ,GOOD LUCK.
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Hi Greg18
Fantastic News - shall be watching Sat - Good Luck
Su
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This is a quote from a paragraph in a letter sent by the Church in Wales in 2000, This seems to be their stance on their buildings and churchyards.
The closure of church buildings and cemeteries is often a deeply upsetting issue However, as the Bishop of Swansea and Brecon, the Rt Rev Anthony Pierce, said recently, "Our ancient churches were built to be signposts of the Gospel and not chapters in an architectural handbook. They are meant to be spiritual powerhouses and not historial theme parks". This is equally true of graveyards.
If he shows no respect, how can we expect the youth of today to show respect!?
I'm guessing some would be more respectful than he is.
This sort of thing is really terrible.
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Hi Tricia 2
It is a terrible thing to hear isn't it!
I am glad to hear I was not the only one to be saddened and angered by the comment.
Hopefully the village with support can save their graveyard and treat it with the respect it deserves.
Su
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http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/religion/digging+up+new+grievances/1993952
Plans to build houses on the site of a graveyard in the Rhondda valley provoke local anger.
Relatives of people buried in a graveyard in the Rhondda valley in Wales are furious at plans to build housing on the land.
The Church In Wales has applied for planning permission for the graveyard of St John's church in Tonyrefail.
If the plans go ahead it will be the first time that exhumations have taken place to facilitate a housing development in the UK.
The Welsh Anglican body says the closed graveyard is an eyesore and a drain on resources.
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Yes, it is sad that this is happening - I do wonder if the compensation culture we now live in has a bearing on this. In many areas churchyards attract (not sure what word to use) loiterers, especially after dark and I'm sure many worry that, with damaged and unsafe stones, accidents will happen. In days gone by the person would be told off for messing around in the churchyard, but today they may well turn round and sue the church.
Also I suppose now that congregations are smaller, and people have less spare time to offer to help upkeep the churchyard it makes it more difficult and costly to maintain them.
Now, I'm not saying that I agree with what's happening, as I would love to see this churchyard saved, but I can see that it must be difficult for the church to know what to do - if it spends all its' money on appearance and upkeep of the grounds, etc and not on things like helping those in need, etc it will get criticised, too. It's a no win situation, I think. Pity some group can't step in to either contribute, or help maintain the churchyard.
Let's hope that the church and community can come together on this.
Kind regards,
Paulene :)
Just trying to see it from both sides.
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http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/religion/digging+up+new+grievances/1993952
Plans to build houses on the site of a graveyard in the Rhondda valley provoke local anger.
Relatives of people buried in a graveyard in the Rhondda valley in Wales are furious at plans to build housing on the land.
The Church In Wales has applied for planning permission for the graveyard of St John's church in Tonyrefail.
If the plans go ahead it will be the first time that exhumations have taken place to facilitate a housing development in the UK.
The Welsh Anglican body says the closed graveyard is an eyesore and a drain on resources.
This should be stopped - it's going to open the floodgates for other property developers to buy graveyards and destroy them.
Does anyone know what they plan to do with the gravestones?
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Thank you for the up date I did wonder how things were going on this subject.It is such a problem & makes you wonder if this is going to be just a starter for what may happen else where (I hope not). Regards Nipy
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So do I - I live opposite one!
Paulene :)
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The Development Committee have been advised to REFUSE planning permission until further information on an Archaeological Restraint is forthcoming...
http://www.rhondda-cynon-taf.gov.uk/stellent/groups/Public/documents/Reports/020281.pdf
CONSULTATION
Transportation Section - no objection subject to conditions.
Land Reclamation and Engineering - no objection subject to conditions.
Public Health and Protection - comments on demolition, hours of construction operations, noise, dust and waste.
Education and Children Services - as this development is relatively small and there is some spare capacity in the nearest school (Trefyrhyg Primary) to the development, no adverse comment offered.
Environment Agency Wales - no objection.
Dwr Cymru/Welsh Water - no reply so assumed no objection.
Economic Development and Regeneration - no objection.
Parks and Countryside - requests a baseline ecological survey and, if necessary, mitigation proposals to inform the planning process.
Glamorgan Gwent Archaeological Trust - the site has an archaeological restraint, and a desk-based archaeological assessment of the site, with appropriate mitigation measures is required in accordance with advice given in Welsh Office Circular 60/96, Section 12.
POLICY CONTEXT
Rhondda Cynon Taf (Taff Ely) Local Plan:
The Proposals Map identifies the site as lying within the settlement limits of Tonyrefail and allocated for residential development (policy ref: h1.48).
Policy en12 states that before an application for development likely to affect a site suspected but unknown nature conservation value is determined, a detailed evaluation of that value is required.
Policy en55 requires an evaluation to be undertaken where an application for development is likely to affect known or suspected sites of archaeological interest prior to determination.
Mid Glamorgan (Rhondda Cynon Taf) Replacement Structure Plan:
Policy H3 permits residential development of land within settlement limits defined in local plans subject to criteria being met.
Planning Policy Wales (March 2002):
Paragraphs 9.3.3 and 9.3.4 state that development should not be allowed to damage an area’s character and amenity.
Paragraph 2.7.1 expresses a preference for development of previously used land over Greenfield sites as a means of promoting sustainability objectives.
Paragraph 6.5.2 states that if important remains are thought to exist at a development site, the planning authority should request the developer to arrange for an archaeological field evaluation to be carried out before any decision on the planning application is taken. The results of any assessment and/or field evaluation should be provided as part of a planning application. If this information is not provided, authorities should consider whether it is appropriate to direct the applicant to supply further information, or whether to refuse permission for inadequately documented proposals.
PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS
A chief consideration is that the application site is allocated for residential development in the Taff Ely Local Plan in order to assist in meeting the projected housing needs of the County Borough. Moreover, the site benefited from outline planning permission for residential development until as recently as May 2005. On this basis there is a clear presumption in favour of the application proposal unless material considerations indicate to the contrary.
Although not identified as an issue at the time of the last application, on this occasion the Glamorgan Gwent Archaeological Trust has advised that the application site has an archaeological restraint that requires further investigation and reporting upon, again with mitigation proposals if appropriate, prior to the determination of the application. Local Plan policy en55 requires an evaluation to be undertaken where a planning application for development is likely to affect known or suspected sites of archaeological interest prior to determination of the application. In accordance with this policy additional information has been requested from the applicant but none has been forthcoming to date.
In conclusion, therefore, it is considered there is insufficient information to allow the archaeological interests of the site to be properly evaluated as part of the consideration of the application as required by Local Plan policy en55. In the absence of this information it is recommended the application be refused for the reason specified below.
RECOMMENDATION:
Refuse
1.
The proposal conflicts with Rhondda Cynon Taf (Taff Ely) Local Plan policy en55 as insufficient information has been submitted in respect of an archaeological restraint on the site to enable the consequences of the development to be properly considered.
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Great stuff, SS! Keep up the pressure, Rootschatters! I'd join in if I was in the country!
MarieC
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Good news, but it is only a desk assessment. Is it worth contacting the Archaeological unit about this?
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Planning application expired, but it has been re-submitted.
http://documents.rctcbc.gov.uk/AniteIM.WebSearch/ExternalEntrypoint.aspx?SEARCH_TYPE=1&DOC_CLASS_CODE=DC&folder1_ref=14/0349/13
http://www.tonyrefail.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1109