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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cornwall => England => Cornwall Lookup Requests => Topic started by: kilmartin on Monday 25 February 08 23:15 GMT (UK)
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I wonder whether anyone would be able to check the Baptism record for Lavinia Trewartha baptised 13 Oct 1833 in St Hilary. Her parents were William Trewartha and Elizabeth Hitchens. What I'm hoping to discover is William's profession at the time as this may help to explain why the family left Cornwall.
Also looking for Elizabeth Ann Trewartha born c1831 Penzance and Mary Jane Trewartha born c1827 Falmouth area - possibly St Blazey.
Hoping someone can help me with this.
Kilmartin
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Can't help with your query but I was at college in the '60s with a chap called Rick Trewartha from Perranporth. :)
Bill
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Hi kilmartin,
If noone is able to view the register for you, you may find that, since you have an exact date and parish for the event, that by emailing the CRO with the information you have, they may lookup the additional information from the entry for you at no charge. ;)
They can certainly provide printouts of any entries required for a small charge. The same hangling fee applies regardless of the number of printouts requested, so if you would like printouts for your records it may pay to order multiple enties at the same time.
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=38210
Perhaps this is Mary's baptism
TREWARTHA Mary Jane baptised 20 Apr 1825 St Gluvias parents William and Elizabeth (St Gluvias is in the Falmouth District, where St Blazey is in the St Austell District)
Cheers Kris :D
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Thanks Kris that is a helpful suggestion, I hadn't realise that the CRO would have the resources to do such a check. I'll give it a go.
Regards
Kilmartin
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Hi all
I have been looking around for this family . I see they are in Wales in 1851. Their son William was b c 1839 in Cardiff, Glamorgan. I was thinking that if we could find them in the 1841, Wales , William snr. may state his occupation as something other than a Policeman .
I have trawled through the 1841 ,Wales to no avail ....
Another thought ...If we could find his, William Snr.'s , family in Cornwall we may find everyone having the same occupation.
deb
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Hi Deb,
Thanks for your interest.
This branch of Trewartha's were in Wales by 1841. William has been found to have been either a Turnkey, Policeman or Postmaster throughout his time in Cardiff and Monmouthshire. I was just hoping that his occupation might have been recorded on the christening record of one of his daughters (Lavinia in St Hilary seems definately correct) - this profession may then help to confirm possibly the St Gluvias christening of Mary Jane (assuming he wasn't a miner!).
One of the problems with William Trewartha is attaching him to the correct Trewartha family in Cornwall. At his marriage in St Clement in 1823 he was described as being of Kenwyn. There is a possible christening for him in Gwennap in 1799. But there was also another William Trewartha who married Elizabeth Barratt in 1822 in Gwennap who may have been this William Trewartha.
So there were at least two William and Elizabeth Trewartha's producing children at around the same time in Cornwall. I was hoping that by finding my William's profession it might help to confirm the family groupings - and possibly other clues to his family (a long shot, I know). Incidentally ancestry.com gives William born c1800 Truro in 1851 and c1799 Cranbash(!?) in 1861. As he was living in Wales I was trying to imagine what place might have sounded like Cranbash to the Welsh!
Kilmartin
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Hi kilmartin,
Looking at that 61 entry it looks like Crantask to me. I do believe that is in fact a t and not a b. the next 2 letters look to be a and s. Now to me the last letter is a k not a h. I realise that gives me Crantask which does not exist either - but it is horribly like Crantock which is what hit me when I first looked at it before analyzing the letters - and Crantock, I do hold the microfiche for ;)
Now examining the fiche I see ;D
William the son of William and Jane TREWARTHA was baptised Crantock 9 Dec 1798
Mary Ann 25 Nov 1800
Now I believe that marriage took place in St Clement
William TREWARTHA of Fowey = Jane MARTYN by Licence 30 Jul 1794
Jane was a Crantock girl baptised 6 Oct 1770 Crantock the daughter of Thomas and Anne
The Martyn family were a well respected family among the Gentry of Crantock and St Columb Minor. (probably explains why the marriage was by licence, common among The Gentry) This family would certainly not be marrying miners. ;)
29 Jul 1766.....MARTYN Thomas Bachelor of Crantock = KING Anne Spinster OTP by Licence dated May 27 1766 St Columb Minor Both Signed. Witnesses: Samuel Martyn and John Martyn.
Most of the Martyn's were Farmers and Merchants (even the odd Doctor or two)
Do you have the full entry for the 1823 marriage? I am curious as to witnesses - also could William read and write? (Policeman, Post Master - I am betting he could, particularly if he was Jane Martyn's son) As you say, curious about his occupation at the time of Lavinia's birth. I do see this Gwennap Miner married to an Elizabeth. (They seem to stay around Gwennap) If your man is who I think he might be, there is no way I can see his occupation would be a miner.
Cheers Kris :D
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Wow, what can I say. At long last it looks like William Trewartha fits into Cornwall.
William Trewartha died age 70 Jun q 1869 in Newport, Monmouthshire district. This is consistent with a christening date of 9 Dec 1798.
Unfortunately, I do not have the witness names for the 1823 marriage. But I do have some circumstantial evidence which makes this link seem good. Another descendent of William Trewartha has a photo of a Joseph Martyn in the Yeomanry (formerly Captain 7th (The Queens Own) Hussars from Victorian times) - he was supposidly some sort of relative. It was recalled that on visits to Cornwall in the early c20th, a grand house behind a high wall was pointed out as a former family residence - the location of which has been lost in time. Your information regarding the Martyn's and their connections makes this seem a reliable memory.
I had thought that Elizabeth Hitchens (wife of William) was christened in Redruth (26 Dec 1797) to William and Mary. Any idea whether this Hitchens family are likely to have married the Trewatha/Martyns?
Thank you very much Kris for your input - it is very much appreciated.
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Hi kilmartin,
Thomas Martyn (a yeoman) died when Jane was only a child 1780 so his will will not help with Trewartha but will certainly list his holdings. ;)
http://crocat.cornwall.gov.uk/dserve/DServe.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Index.tcl
I know some of the properties in the hands of members of the Martyn family in Crantock were Tregunnel (Jane's Brother's family) Penpol, Trevemper and I am sure many, many more. A grand house behind a high wall certainly sounds likely.
Joseph in 7th Hussars, I can't put my finger on but Joseph is certainly a family name. Jane's Grandfather was Joseph. Her brother William had a son Joseph King Martyn in 1807. Certainly sounds like we are onto something here, doesn't it.
Checking for William Trewartha Wills seems mainly Gwennap. Any likely baptisms on IGI were Gwennap. So we see there were William Trewartha's who were Yeomen in Gwennap previously. (The Redruth one isn't him, I wondered - 1826 but found that burial - he was 21)
Interesting as far as Burials there is a Jane buried Kenwyn 1830, the problem is her age. Lists her as 54 where she should be 60. I find these educated members of the gentry are usually very accurate with ages, just had to wonder with your William listing Kenwyn at marriage.
Now I realised I mucked up the name yesterday. With only the two baptisms listed I looked for burials and I did notice that buried on the same day as Mary Ann's baptism was Mary TREWATHA (No R) I looked back at the two baptisms and there is no r in those either. (Williams a little indecisive, but Mary Ann's clearly no r) Another point of interest is baptised on the same day directly under Mary Ann's baptism I note
Mary Trewatha BRAY daughter of William and Ann Bray (Or I think that is the surname)
No idea if or what the connection may be there - and with this burial being on the same day, unfortunately nothing else is mentioned. We do often see in these pre-form burials that it will be stated with a child as son/dau of. This fellow did not do it as I see none listed as children and some of the burials during this era must have been. The baptism lists Mary Ann, the burial lists just Mary so looks like it was probably not the same person. An earlier daughter named Mary is a possibility I guess (or some other connection) Just thought it was worth mentioning.
I think printouts of those two St Clement marriages should be the next step here. Do you know what the Hitchins family did?
Kris :D
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Hi Kris ;D
can you see them anywhere on the 1841 ... i am thinking that it would give us an idea of what his occupation was upon leaving Cornwall. His youngest son , in 1851 was b c 1837 ... he must have moved his family just prior to that as the second to last child was born in Cornwall . Also , because of the family 'connections' it seems as though he did not have to move because of a mine closing and there being no work for him .
I cannot find them ...you would think that with a daughter named Lavinia, they would be easy to spot :-\ ::)
was something going on that he had to whisk his wife and kids off to Wales?!
deb
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Hi Deb,
As kilmartin mentioned he is a turnkey. (prison warder) ;)
Police Officer in 1851 and Post Master in 1861
HO107/1425/1 Folio 37 Page 23
Hill Terrace
St John and St Mary, Cardiff
Hopefully the 1831 baptism will tell us what he was doing in Cornwall. He doesn't really sound terribly upper class here. His daughter was a straw bonnet maker. I feel that the baptism I have must be him, but if I am right, there doesn't appear to be a lot of money about by this time. The one thing I feel looking at this is that a certain degree of literacy would have been required to be a police officer and post master. If he was from a poor mining or labouring family chances would be he wouldn't have been able to read and write.............Kris :D
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Thanks again Kris - the Martyn family do look interesting - the link is a real breakthrough - that side of the family have been quite challenging to trace with names such as Thomas and Lewis in Wales. I really thought the Trewarthas would have been more straightforward - apparently not!
There was a story from Mary Trewartha's side of the family about the Trewartha's having come upon hard times - which I guess must hold true with the Straw Bonnet making and turnkey occupations. Apparently William was listed as a Gaolor at the County Gaol on his Son William's birth certificate in 1839. It is intreaging what William did in Cornwall as he must have moved around a bit as his children were christened in different parishes.
Unfortunately I don't know much about the Hitchens side either - not a great help - sorry.
I will look at the other bits in the morning.
Kilmartin
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Kilmartin,
I see talk on IGI of births listing the Trewartha Christian name to William BRAY and Ann TREWARTHA in Kea. (mainly submitted but some extracted records)
I found that marriage
William BRAY = Ann TREWARTHA 27 Jan 1794 Kea
(No mention of either being from elsewhere at time of marriage)
Just wondering if she may be Williams sister?
Kris :D
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Still looking and and the only thing I can turn up, where siblings may match is in Gwennap
William TREWARTHA 1 Sep 1771 Parents James and Mary
Ann TREWARTHA 31 Jul 1774 Parents James and Mary
Only likely marriage I can see
James TREWARTHA = Mary GOLDSWORTHY 27 Aug 1769 Feock
Kris :D
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I wonder if you could be right, Feock is not that far from St Gluvias, St Clement or Kea. Most Trewarthas seem to connect back to the Gwennap area eventually from previous research into the name. Naturally, there are a few Trewarthas which are not obvious where they connect - such as my William Trewartha and his descendents.
No one seems to have accounted for William (1771) son of William Trewartha and Mary Goldsworthy - so he possibly could have been the William to marry Jane Martyn. William (1768) appears to have married a Sarah Oxford and had a son William later than my William (1798) Crantock - this rules him out.
James Trewartha and Mary Goldsworthy had 3 children christened in Gwennap - Mary (1770), William (1771) and Ann (1774) - I wonder whether they had more elsewhere.
I do not know about William Trewartha Bray but being in the same part of Cornwall (South of Truro), possibly his mother Ann Trewartha was William Trewartha's sister. Again I can not spot her being linked into another family.
One thing that puzzles me is would a Martyn marry a miner? Probably not. I don't know what James Trewartha did but his Grandfather, yet another William Trewartha, married at St. Gluvias in 1703 to Catherine King and was a Yeoman. Maybe this branch of Trewarthas were still yeoman when William married Jane Martyn. That would make more sense.
Incidentally the father of James Trewartha, yet another William Trewartha married Mary Bishop in 1729 in Gwennap - her father was the vicar there apparently.
It seems like we may have cracked this line. Any opinions?
Kilmartin
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Hi kilmartin,
I kept looking about for Trewartha's yesterday and noted the area we were talking about is around Gwennap where there appears to be a large gathering of Trewarthas in the area. Do you know for sure that this William of 1771 was a miner, because if he was I have serious doubts that Jane Martyn of Crantock would have married him. Mention Miner and Martyn in the same sentence and I will tune out. ::)
I saw the marriage earlier to the Vicar's daughter and quite liked that as I liked Yeoman (sounds rather more like it to me)
The marriage was by Licence, which to me is a sign that it may have been an upper class union. - a sign of their status and the fact that they could afford a licence (though of course there are others reason for a marriage to be by licence) We normally see gentry marrying their own kind and though I am sure that even then people were known to marry below there station, I guess I just find it impossible to see the Martyn Family giving Jane the price of a licence and telling her to go off and marry her miner. I am presuming the marriage was not some sort of family disgrace with Jane's Children being baptised in Crantock (unfortunately baptisms too early to tell us anything about William). We generally see a lot of cousin marriages etc within the gentry. These were desirable unions as it kept the property within the families hands. The upper class were fearful of losing their lands through poor unions. To my mind anybody marrying Jane would have held lands. I guess it is only supposition until you can get hold of these parish entries and we can see just what they say. Can't wait for an update there. ;D
I did find yesterday there is a William in Kenwyn in 1851 - guess you have seen him (Can't see him in 1841) He is a 78 year old ag lab so I tuned out a little there too. I didn't spot a baptism to give me a 78 year old. The nearest two showing are 1768 and 1771. I just have a gut feeling that Jane Martyn of Crantock would not have been likely to have married a miner or an ag lab.
Kris :D
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Hi Kris,
I do not have any evidence that William Trewartha was a miner - I only mentioned it as there are a lot of copper miners around Gwennap. It would seem highly improbable that he was a miner. I looked at the Gwennap marriage transcriptions from the OPC and saw that the William Trewartha who married the vicars daughter, Mary Bishop, in 1729 was refered to as Mr - few others were - so I take that as an indication of his standing in the community. There is no obvious evidence to suggest his grandson who we presume married Jane Martyn had any less standing.
I don't see the William Trewartha in Kenwyn in 1851 as the one who married Jane Martyn unless he had come upon very hard times indeed! The age is a bit out too especially if we think the Martyns would have been accurate about such matters.
I have not spotted a death for Jane Trewartha (Martyn) to see where she might have ended up. Her husband may well have been buried with her - would give a date. They did not seem to have beeen particularly attached to one place. I wonder if they had died before 1841, so there may have been little family to hold William and Elizabeth from moving away from Cornwall.
Kilmartin
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Hi kilmartin,
I don't have the full ref for Jane's Brothers marriage (It was in Devon) but he was certainly a land holder. His sons and grandsons were very substantial land holders, his daughter married a substantial land holder. I did notice something with Jane's sisters marriage, who did marry in the parish. Her husband could not sign his name. Perhaps the girls marriages were not quite so good as their brother.
Thomas Trenerry of St Clements Bachelor = Margaret Martyn OTP spinster by Licence 6 Jan 1793 Crantock Thomas signed with his mark, Margaret signed witnesses Mary Martyn and Margaret Martyn (Both Signed)
The witnesses were cousins. To my knowledge there were only the three Children and parents died when Jane would have been barely 10 so guess they were brought up by other family members.
I don't see Thomas and Margaret Trennery in 1841 (Thomas was buried St Clement 28 Oct 1834 aged 69, unfortunately no sign of Margaret 1813-1837 to just see how accurate her age was) Thomas was possibly a Butcher - Sons appear to be butchers. (Of course nothing to say a Butcher would not have owned some land) I also note some of the children have the middle name Martin - Spelled wrong. Interesting, I would never expect to see it spelled with an i around St Columb Minor, Crantock but this family were in St Clement. :-\
Guess we just hope your records will tell us a little more about the Trewarthas. As you say re those earlier marriages these men certainly appear to have some standing in the community. They left wills too which is a good sign...........Kris :D
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Hi Kris,
What was the name of Jane Martyn's brother who married in Devon?
Do you know if the Crantock Martyn family is documented elsewhere as they sound interesting?
There was another story about William being an officer in the army - I wonder whether this could have been likely - could Jane Martyn have married an army officer?
kilmartin
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Hi Kilmartin,
William b May 1767 Crantock (Date Unreadable) He married Mary HISCUTT 18 Apr 1793 Stoke Damerol. He can be found at Lagorra Cottage Crantock in 1841 and died in 1848. IGI has good coverage. His family are well known and I believe quite well researched. Williams son Silas Hiscutt Martyn farmed at Tregunnel. There is a tree on Ancestry World Trees and probably others just beware when taking information from other peoples trees. I have the microfiche and have done a lot of work on the family so give me a hoy if you need anything verified as you progress and I will try to help.
Margaret 25 Jun 1769 and Jane 6 Oct 1770
I think if William Trewartha was in the army at the time of marriage the entry would probably indicate this. If there is any information as to a residence other than otp or occupation the index generally would indicate this. :'(
Kris :D
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Many Thanks again Kris for all your invaluable help - I have found a tree to look through so I shall delve further.
I will update when I have updates on William's profession.
Kilmartin
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Hi,
I hope people don't mind me jumping in on this discussion, and please let me know if I'm violating board process/etiquette but I've seen quite a few names that might tie in with a brickwall that I've hit in my research.
Person in question: Ellen BRAY b. 1829 in Cornwall, she emigrated to Australia 1847 on board the Cressy. Died 26 Sep 1888 Sandhurst, Vic, Australia.
The problem is her parents information. I currently have two different sets of information.
1. Family record, no idea where the info came from which has her as the daughter of James Trewartha Bray, born in Kea, Cornwall around 1796. Married to a Joanna.
2. Information from a distant relative doing research, somewhat more reliable as their information is at least sourced. Gives her parents as William Bray, b. 17 Aug 1796 Helston, Cornwall, England d. 25 May 1868 married to Ann BARRET b. 1796 Gwennap, Cornwall, England.
Parents of Ellen Bray.- IGI Individual Record - Batch No M023563 1754-1875 Source Call No 0255477 Type Film
2nd source:- Cornwall County Council - Marriages in the Parish of Lanivet William Bray bachelor Ann Barrett spinster 23/05/1819 - Their marks - Witnesses Wm Barrett and John Mannell.
I've tried to verify the marriage and birth information via the Online COPC but I haven't been able to find the records.
Now the thing that is interesting is that the parents given to James Trewartha Bray in theory 1. are William Bray and Ann Trewartha, two people put together in one of the posts in this discussion. I am wondering if I have the right family but somewhere along the track, the individuals have gotten mixed up?
Unfortunately, her death certificate only lists her fathers surname of Bray, no information at all about her mother.
There was an Eliza BRAY on the Cressy with her, possibly a sister, as well as two William BRAYS, again, no positive idea of relationship.
An 1841 Census record has this:
Enumeration District 13 Civil Parish of Gwennap Book 11 Folio 13 Page 23
Tolcarne,1,Ann Bray,,55,Widow (Crossed Out),In county,
,,Josiah Bray,22,,Miner,In county,
,,William Bray,19,,,In county,
,,James Bray,12,,,In county,
,,Ellen Bray,10,,,In county,
,,Ambrose Bray,,7,,In county,
The issues are, how do I get a solid birth date for Ellen? How do I confirm her parents? Being on the other side of the world means I am limited in the leg work I can do myself. Is there anyway I can get this information online? My biggest problem is I am not really that familiar with how these various records were kept and what some of them mean.
Can anyone give me some ideas? Or should I be posting this as a separate request and not hi-jack this thread?
Cheers,
Michelle
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Hi Michelle,
A big Welcome to RootsChat and the thread. ;D
Starting to take a look about and I note:
James Trewartha Bray was baptised in Kea 7 Aug 1896 the Son of William.
Given the names Trewartha in the name it sounds like this is probably a son to the couple who had the one child baptised in Crantock, I provided earlier.
possibly a double Bray union, but Trewartha is not mentioned to be sure it is this man. Unfortunately there do not appear to be any baptisms for any of these children listed in 1841 :'(
James BRAY = Ann BRAY 11 Feb 1818 Gwennap
James BRAY was buried 16 Dec 1835 Gwennap aged 45 Years
If only the name Trewartha was mentioned it would provide a clue as to whether this was in fact James Trewartha Bray.
Gwennap records have not made it to the OPC Database at this stage. It will take time to go through these. It appears there are some baptisms listed to James and Ann in Gwennap
http://gwennap-opc.com/
Pity the death certificate is not helpful, but unformation information provided for death certs was provided by other family members and was not verified - sadly a lot of times they just did not know. What about Ellen's Australian marriage cert for which she would have provided the information herself. What does she say about her father?
Update: I see the Cressy arrived in SA so am just checking my SA records ;)
I will leave this discussion here for the time being, to alert kilmartin to the fact that you may have a connection, but should we stray too much from his family I will later split it and make it a separate request ;)
Kris :D
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Oh blast: Too early for a father to be recorded at marriage in SA :'(
Looks like Eliza no help either born 1834 and no Ellen and Eliza in same household in 1841 :'(
If she is who the IGI says she is then the full baptism entry lists her father as a shoemaker from Falmouth. The only William and Mary in 1841 Falmouth with a daughter Eliza is a boatman......doesn't sound very likely ::)
As a South Ozzie myself I know just how frustrating it can be.........Kris ;)
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Hi Michelle,
I wonder whether the name Trewartha was familiar to older members of your family - it was one name that has been passed down in our branch so maybe in your line the name Trewartha could jog an odd memory.
I had a quick look at the IGI and found a submitted record for Ellen Bray 1829 in Cornwall. It lists her parents as James Trewartha Bray and Ann. A date of death is given as 26 Sep 1888 Sandhurst, Victoria, Australia - fitting in with your Ellen Bray. Unfortunately it is not obvious who submitted this information but it appears someone had reason to connect this Ellen with James Trewartha Bray and Ann. Therefore, I think this line would well be worth checking out closely. It would be nice if it connects.
I also found an extracted marriage record for James Bray and Ann Pengelly at St Martin on Looe Bay 4 May 1823 - which may fit this couple.
There is another James and Ann marriage but in Crowan 6 Dec 1834 between James Bray and Ann Waters - I wonder whether this was for the family you found in 1841. It looks a little like my problem in that while Cornwall is very fortunate in having a good coverage of baptism records on-line there are still quite a few areas that are not covered which could well be where your Ellen Bray is to be found. Frustrating!
Kilmartin
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Dear Kilmartin,
Unfortunately, there isn't anyone left to ask. And as I don't know where the initial information came from, I wouldn't know where to start!
I suspect that the info I have (written in one of those generic "Family History" fill in the blanks books) may have come from the IGI. And while it is somewhere to get leads, unless I can back it up with some solid evidence, I don't want to include it.
Makes you wish for the odd Buffy or Tiffany rather than an endless supply of Williams, Georges, Jmaes, Thomas, Elizabeth, Marys and Anns'!!
I will keep plugging away, you never know when you are going to turn up that one crucial bit of info.
Cheers,
Michelle
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Hi
Sorry to butt in but new to this forum.
found when i googled thomas martin trenerry born 1801.
Thomas was a butcher,i was searching for his parents when i came across your reference to the marriage between thomas trenerry and margaret martyn 1793,in which u mentioned that the children from this marriage were butchers and wondered if this could be the couple i am looking for.
also another post mentions a captain joseph martyn ( some kind of relation) who was in the 7th hussars
iam in possession of a cup presented to a captain Joseph trenerry 7th hussars in 1856 after 32 years service and wondered if this could actually be the same man.
any help you could give would be greatly appreciated
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Hi Bonsaitron,
It is interesting to now have a connection to the Trenerry line of Margaret Martyn. It seems quite a remarkable co-incidence that you should possess a cup presented to Captain Joseph Trenerry of the 7th Hussars. I too am beginning to wonder whether it could be the same man. I have identified that there would only be one likely Joseph Martyn (son of William Martyn and Mary Hiscutt) who would be a close enough relative of approximately the right age. At the moment I have no evidence that he was even in the army.
Joseph Martin Trenerry was christened in St Clements, Cornwall 6 Jul 1806 - son of Thomas and Margaret Trenerry. In 1861 he is married to Elizabeth and living in Hawkesbury and Upton, Gloucestershire. He is described as army retired, adjt yeomanry. He died in 1867. As he had a middle name of Martin then perhaps the inscription on the back of the photo just referred to his christian names.
Details given on a Martyn chart for the children of Thomas and Margaret Trenerry are :-
1) William who married Mary Eastmead
2) Ann who married William Dunstan
3) Margaret who married W Williams
4) Edward who married Elizabeth Martyn
5) Thomas who married Hannah Sutton
6) Peggy
7) Joseph
This might help identify if this is your Trenerry family but it would be a remarkable co-incidence if it is not. Unfortunately there are no dates but the names do tally with the IGI.
Kilmartin
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Hi Bonsaitron,
A big Welcome to RootsChat and the Cornwall Board. :D
How lovely you have found us. - You certainly appear to have a connection here. ;D
And Hello again kilmartin :D
I have things a little different to what kilmartin has posted here re your line Bonsaitron ::)
Thomas TRENNERY of St Clements Bachelor = Margaret MARTYN OTP spinster by Licence 6 Jan 1793 Crantock Thomas signed with his mark, Margaret signed witnesses Mary Martyn and Margaret Martyn
Children of Thomas and Margaret
Anne was baptised 14 Jun 1795 St Clement = Samuel DUNSTAN of Truro 2 Nov 1817 by licence St Clement NEK but of possible interest a William Fenerry Dunstan was baptised in 1822 Perranarworthal
William was baptised 12 Feb 1797 St Clement = Sukey/Suky (Even Susan) EASTMEAD 25 Feb 1822 St Clement. 8 Children. William was a butcher
Peggy was baptised 6 May 1798 St Clement and was buried 25 Jan 1799 St Clement
Edward was baptised 6 Oct 1799 St Clement = Grace MARTYN 3 Mar 1831 Clewer Berkshire (1851 Budock - Barrack Sergeant) There is a 14 year old dau Ann in 1851 b Berkshire - cant see them in 1841. There is an IGI exctracted record for the baptism of an earlier daughter Ann in 1832 in London (Father is listed as Edward Martyn Trenerry) also Emily in 1834 London
Thomas Martin was baptised 11 Oct 1801 St Clement = 1. Ursula WARREN 19 Sep 1829 St Kerverne who died 23 Jul 1836 Buckshead and was buried 26 Jul 1836 St Clement - No Known Issue = 2. Elizabeth SUTTON 11 Aug 1839 Kenwyn At the time of his second marriage he was described as a butcher (Son of Thomas a butcher) 5 children. Thomas was a butcher
Peggy Martin was baptised 30 dec 1804 St Clement = Robert HARPUR of Kenwyn 1 Nov 1822 St Clement NEK
Joseph Martin was baptised 6 Jul 1806 St Clement He was certainly in the 7th Hussars
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0348/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0349/
Joseph = Elizabeth (Durrant or Ward) 1856 in York. Elizabeth was from Suffolk (1861 Hawkesbury And Upton Gloucestershire - Army Retired Adj Yeomanry) Joseph died 1867 - there was an inquest (Accidental Death - pistol possible Suicide :o ) 1871 Elizabeth is on pension - widowed with an adopted daughter Laura Conse Sprigge from Suffolk aged 10. - 1861 Laura is wiith her family in Suffolk NEK
I don't have a Margaret = Williams :-\
I have found no reference to Joseph MARTYN of the 7th Hussars so as you say kilmartin perhaps your photo is if Joseph Martin TRENERRY. Do you have a Photo by any chance Bonsaitron?
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi Kilmartin and all
I can't help feeling that there might be a link to William (Billy) Trewartha Bray (1794 - 1868) here somewhere?
He was an ex-miner who became a celebrated Methodist Preacher responsible for building several chapels. Buried at Baldhu Church. Famously known as Billy Bray in Cornwall.
Possible?
Su
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Hi ,
and thanks to you both for the extremely quick responses :D
my Thomas Martin Trenerry was definately married to Elizabeth Sutton so it appears that this is right family !!
My husbands family are descended from their son Thomas born in 1840.
with regards to Joseph Martin Trenerry the cup in my possession is the only reference i have to him .The inscription actually says" to Captain Trenerry,after 32 years service in the 7th Hussars,from his brother officers,1856"
to find out that this was Joseph i then searched Harts, as per the link which you also provided.
I had assumed that Joseph and Thomas were probably brothers or cousins but had not been able to prove the link before your invaluable help.
my Trenerry family tree is a public tree on Ancestry and has mostly been garnered from the census,being a complete beginner i am afraid i am unfamiliar with many of the references and abbreviation that you have used.
i really am most grateful for your help
Allison
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Hi Bonsaitron,
It is great that this confirms your line and that it seems we now have the right "Joseph Martyn" so that has helped me greatly.
It is also interesting that the information on the Martyn chart is partially correct (first names appear wrong) - the same was true for my William Trewartha as it gave his marriage to Jane Hitchens and not Elizabeth as it should have been. I guess that the Margaret that couldn't be found was Peggy Martin.
Interestingly it has also given additional children born to William Trewartha and Jane Martyn - Mary, James, Mary Ann, Elizabeth and Jane. I tracked a christening for James son of William and Jane Trewartha in Fowey 7 Jun 1797 but have not found any of the others. Mary Ann is supposed to have married John Cornet but again I have not further evidence. Names given to the children of William Trewartha and 'Jane' Hitchens were Mary. Joe.Thomas and William. This list we know is incomplete.
Kilmartin
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Hi Allison,
Anything you need help understanding - please ask. We were all newbies once, and are happy to help. ;D
On looking at my post, I am guessing my OPC may be of concern
Here is a post which will explain that ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,223577.0.html
By using our Lexican you will be able to find explanations of most things which you may come across in your research and not fully understand.
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/lex-index.php
To learn how things work on RootsChat you will find information on how to do just about anything here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,207046.0.html
Did you ever get those printouts kilmartin?
Kris :D
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Hi Kris,
Just arrived in the post - various bits of information.
Lavinia dau of William and Elizabeth Trewartha 13th October 1833 St Hilary - occupation - Servant.
Mary Jane dau of William and Elizabeth Trewartha 20th April 1825 St Gluvias - occupation - Mariner.
Mary Ann, Susannah and Martha daughters of William and Elizabeth Trewartha 7th September St Blazey - occupation - miner, therefore this seems a totally different William and Elizabeth Trewartha.
Witnesses to the marriage of William Trewartha and Elizabeth Hitchens St Clement 2nd December 1823 were Jos. Philp and Mary Rundle.
Witnesses to the marriage of Wiliam Trewartha and Jane Martyn St Clements 30th July 1794 were Eliza ? and Wm Wills.
James Trewartha, yeoman, of Gwennap's will dated 1783 made provision for his wife Mary, son William and daughters Mary and Ann, the children being under the age of twenty one and unmarried at the time. Therefore it would be reasonable to assume that William Trewartha son of James Trewartha and Mary Goldsworthy was the William Trewartha who married Jane Martyn at St Clement in 1794 as you suggested, Kris, as he inherited the residue of the estate (on a quick read through).
I now have the answer to my original query but so much more as well - this has been a very interesting post indeed! I'm not quite sure how the servant fits in and William Trewartha ending up in Cardiff - not an obvious army connection after all!
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Hi Kilmartin and all
I can't help feeling that there might be a link to William (Billy) Trewartha Bray (1794 - 1868) here somewhere?
He was an ex-miner who became a celebrated Methodist Preacher responsible for building several chapels. Buried at Baldhu Church. Famously known as Billy Bray in Cornwall.
Possible?
Su
Does this fit in anywhere?
Su
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Hi Su,
I have not really looked at the Brays but Kris found an Ann Trewartha marriage to William Bray in Jan 1794 at Kea - this Ann could have been the daughter of James Trewartha and Mary Goldsworthy especially as they had a daughter christened at Crantock the same day as William and Jane Trewartha in 1800.
Do you know if Billy Brays parents were William and Ann?
Kilmartin
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Hi Kilmartin
Billy Bray's parents were William Bray and Ann Trewartha married
27 Jan 1794.
http://www.familytreecircles.com/journal_12246.html
might provide a few other points of reference.
Su
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Sounds like you have some great paperwork there kilmartin ;D
You must have thought all your Christmases had come at once when it all arrived. The will is wonderful to clarify who William was for you. You couldn't ask for more.
The witnesses don't help but we are convinced of who they are now anyway. Occ of servant I certainly wouldn't have expected - you just never know do you. (Since it is Lavinia we know it must be right) Was he literate? Mariner sounds OK. Guess the girls didn't marry as well as their brother did. He must have got the bulk of his fathers estate.
I was quite convinced it was Billy Bray's line the moment I spotted that Crantock baptism Su. Another interesting character there. ;)
We also have a SA Artist who is a part of the Trenerry Butcher family - Horace Hurtle TRENERRY b 5 Dec 1899 Adelaide
We have come a long way with this thread. Certainly a memorable one ;D
Kris :D
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Hi Kris,
Certainly a great thread. All were literate - William trewartha senior and Jane Martyn had very neat precise writing - the witness I could not work out yesterday was Eliza Hiscutt. The other thing is that the Trewarthas were resident at Tregembo when Lavinia was christened at St Hilary and living at Penryn when Mary was christened at St Gluvias.
I was not sure of Billy Bray as what I have read emphasises the family were illiterate - I have found that James Trewartha and Mary Goldsworthy were literate. I guess we would expect their daughter Ann Trewartha (who married William Bray) to have been able to write her name at least - but I have not checked this. Certainly a baptism in Crantock on the same day as the Trewartha baptism is persuading though.
I could not see the Trenerry tree so missed Horace Hurtle Trenerry.
Kilmartin
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Hi, kilmartin,
I am new to this forum, but I too am looking to information on William Trewartha who married an Elisabeth Hitchins on 2/12/1823, St. Clements, Cornwall.
My info. so far has them having the following children:
Mary Jane, chr. 20/4/1825, St. Gluvias; Martha chr. 7/9/1828, St. Blazey; Susannah chr. 7/9/1828, St. Blazey; Mary Anne chr. 7/9/1798, St. Blazey; William chr. 19/10/1831, St. Blazey; James chr. 22/7/1832, Tynardreath; Lavinia chr. 13/10/1833, St. Hilary. My info. also has Mary Jane (1825) having one child, William T. b. 9/9/1846, Cornwall, d. 24/12/1918, Moonta, South Australia, m. 25/12/1873, Moonta, Sarah Quintrell, b. 17/1/1853, Cornwall,d. 19/7/1910, Moonta, SA.
I am still in some doubt about this info. being my line, as other historians have my William T. (1846) associated with another line and his birth date being 1849.
However, the info. above might be of some help to you,
Regards JPSmith.
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Hi,
A big welcome to RootsChat and the Cornwall Board ;D
At the time of Williams marriage in SA he was described as
William TREWARTHA single age 36 father William Benbow Henry Trewartha = Sarah QUINTRELL age MI father John Quintrell 25 Dec 1873 Wesleyan Church Yelta Dist Dal 97 866.
I don't have deaths after 1916 to see what his age is listed as. If you don't have it, please ask on the Emigrants to Australia Board. Someone will be able to help.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
This marriage entry suggests he was born about 1836. The birth of his 12 children do not list a middle name for William. There are other Trewartha's in the area at this time who married and had children. All appear to be the children of Elisha Trewartha who married Elizabeth Moyle in Gwennap 12 Apr 1834 (Children born Cornwall and SA) This family arrived in 1847 in case they connect.
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1847Rajah.htm
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi, Kris,
Thanks for your reply.
I have the following info. on William Trewartha - died 24/12/1918, at Moonta, buried in Moonta Cemetery 26/12/1918, Cemetery records show 72years of age, which would bring his birth date back to 1846.
However, it would appear that perhaps his father could have been William Henry Benbow T., but will do more checking before I am convinced.
Thanks again,
JPSmith.
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Hi JP,
Yes I found the burial after I posted. Does the death also state 72? big difference there. One of two things spring to mind - firstly at death, age is provided from someone else and these ages may be horribly incorrect - at marriage he provided the information on the cert himself, so to my mind would most likely be correct, of course one would need to see the cert to be sure his age is listed as 36 and has not been transcribed incorrectly. I cannot find any mention of a William Benbow Henry Trewartha in Cornwall unfortunately. Do you have any other documentation on William such as immigration etc which may provide further clues as to his age and parentage?
I do suggest you have a good read of this thread while you wait for kilmartin, I think you will see all these baptisms you mention were not to the same William and Elizabeth Trewartha.
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi, Kris,
I have been looking at the entries on this site - there is a William Henry Benbow T. b. 1849, Gwennap ( son of John T. and Mary Ann Trestail Benbow), who a lot of historians have connected into and have him marrying Sarah Quintrell. However, my William T. must have given the info. that his father was William Benbow Henry T. on his marriage certificate. Perhaps he was trying to mislead people, I don't know. Have found the above info. on the Paltridge Perry Project (they are researching the Benbow's).
Thanks for the info, so far,
Regards, JPSmith.
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Hi JP,
Yes I did see that a John T had married Mary Ann Trestrail Benbow but could see the son could not have been the father of your John as he was born about the same time as John (or some time later) Though the Trewartha Benbow connection seemed interesting. The plot thickens.
Do you have or have you seen the actual marriage cert? If not I think you do need it to be sure. Maybe the transcript is wrong. Funny he would give his fathers name as William Benbow Henry if it was in fact his own name and his father was John. :-\
What about immigration. Do you have that? Wondering if who he arrived with etc and his age may help..........Cheers Kris :D
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Hi, Kris,
Yes I do have the original Marriage Cert. -
Married in the District of Daly
No. 56
25th December, 1873
William Trewartha, age 36 years, bachelor, Miner, Moonta Mines, William Benbow Henry Trewartha(father) , Yelta Wesleyan Church
Sarah Quintrell, age ?, Spinster, Moonta Mines, John Quintrell ( father).
Witnesses : Stephen Quintrell, surveyor, Moonta Mines and Bessy ? Reynolds, Moonta Mines and Richard Avigbue( not sure of spelling) , Miner, Yelta.
Samuel Knight, offificating Minister.
If he was 72years of age when he died, this would make him 27years old when he married not 36 yrs, which would fit in with his birth date of 1846. Perhaps he gave the wrong age when they married. He arrived in SA on 3/12/1865 on the ship "Lincoln", however, not sure if he was 16 or 19 years years of age. If 16 years of age, then 1849 would be a closer birth date.
I have that right, don't I?
As you say the plot thickens and extremely interesting.
Regards, JPSmith.
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Hi JP,
Did he come with family? I have a horrible feeling he didn't Those witnesses don't seem to help with William - Is his age hard to read in the passenger list? Sorry for all the questions. Certainly a big difference in these ages from either 16 or 19 in 1865 - 36 in 1873. I can't fathom why he would put his age up at marriage. His wife was listed as MI (Minor) which fits with age at death to make her 20. Why would he say he was so much older if he wasn't. The plot certainly thickens, especially if he has given his own name as his father. No Index mistake then. Its all very strange. Do you have much in the way of family stories about him and his origins? .......Kris :-\
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Just looking at the 1851 census JP, trying to get a feel for them and trying to work out just who is who. Mary Ann with the children I presume is Mary Benbow now widowed. Son William 2. If that is him he never knew his father. Perhaps its a reason for fathers name to be wrong, though you would think he would have been told about his father. Who is the 4 year William - the Lodger? Then in 1861 we have a 13 year old servant b Gwennap and a 16 year old William T or J on a ship listing as b Buddock. 1871 we have a 24 year old b Illogan married farm lab. I'm getting dizzy trying to sort them out. I hope you know which one is which...........Kris :-\
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Hi JP,
You seem to have just as much trouble placing your Trewartha as we did. I think it unlikely that your Mary Jane Trewartha was the one born 1825 in St Gluvias as she married Herbert Davies in 1849 and lived in South Wales - apparantly she lived to a 'grand old age' and I don't think there were connections to SA.
Thank you for your suggestions of children born to William Trewartha and Elizabeth Hitchens - we have identified that Martha and Susannah born in St Blazey were born to a different William and Elizabeth. I have not investigated the Tywardreath James T, but suspect he is connected to the St Blazey family.
I have read your Trewartha Quintrell additions with interest. I am surprised as to why your William would give such a long name for his father (William Benbow Henry Trewartha) if he did not think it correct surely if he wasn't sure he is more likely to have stuck with just plain William Trewartha (?). I have spotted a message board entry on the Benbow Trewartha's on ancestry.com which seems to have a lot of detail about the Moonta Trewartha's and where they fit. There is some useful information there which might help. Certainly it would be helpful to know if he travelled with any family on the 'Lincoln'.
As you are looking for a possible birth around 1846 there should be a birth certificate which could be ordered as this is after civil registration.
Back to the photo I mentioned earlier on this thread - this seems confirmed as Joseph Martyn Trennery and not Joseph Martyn as there was not a record of a Joseph Martyn serving with the 7th Hussars but Joseph Trennery did.
Kilmartin
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Hi, Kris and Kilmartin,
Thanks for your helpful hints. Glad some of my info. might be heloful to Kilmartin.
I have spent time looking for passenger list for my William T. and do find him on the list for Lincoln arriving on 3rd December, 1865 - Plymouth to Port Adelaide. List 65/12.
There are other Trewartha's listed - Ellen 65/14 and Joseph 54/14(2), but cannot see any others - don't know if they are relatives- haven't looked as yet.
Will come back to it later, JP
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Hi JP,
Very interesting.
I see in SA births to Joseph TREWARTHA and Ellen Jane POPE from 1867. They lived in the same area as William.
Joseph TREWARTHA = Ellen Jane POPE Sep 1863 Redruth 5c 416
There is even a possibility for him in Cornwall with a brother William John - parents are Joseph and Margaret unfortunately (but I was looking to put them together) I don't see this Josephs death or burial. Surely to arrive together they were connected. I think we need more info on him. A request for the death perhaps is the way to go, if you haven't looked for him. I don't see the deaths to 1916, and burials don't seem to be listed either. Somebody on The Oz board will be able to look for a later death.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
Once we have a little more idea of his age we may be able to work out who he was - perhaps his marriage cert may help :-\ Trewartha is not that common, I really can't see him travelling with a stranger who just happened to have the same name. Even if they were not brothers I feel it would be unlikely they do not connect. Also curious if there are entries in BISA for these boys......Kris
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Hi JP
It looks like there was only one Ellen Jane Pope in Cornwall and she was born St Day c1840 and can be found in Gwennap in 1841, 1851 & 1861. Her father Thomas was a Copper Miner. It seems more than likely Joseph Trewartha was living in Gwennap then too (just a couple of years before their marriage). It would be more of a surprise to find that Joseph Trewartha was not connected to your William Trewartha, so probably he came from Gwennap too - most Trewarthas have been found to have had connections with Gwennap at some point in the past. The brothers born to Joseph and Margaret appear to fit the bill nicely (if only they the parents had the right names!!). Perhaps it might help to see if we could trace these Joseph and William T's to see if they can be ruled out.
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Hi JP and kilmartin.
I don't see them in 1871 in Cornwall. I thought I may have had another idea on the possible connection, but I don't see that Joseph in 1861. I will take a look at that immigration when I am in town in a few weeks. I have to go to the library. Looking at William and Joseph's families, I note the only children's names they have in common are Mary, Mary Jane and William. I think Joseph's first son was Joseph Godfrey if that means anything. There is a Joseph Godfrey born the quarter after the marriage in Redruth. At marriage in SA age fits and father is listed as Joseph.......Kris :D
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OK ;)
I am now leaning to the other thought I had as to who these boys were. ;) How about this, though I can't prove it. In 1841 we have a Joseph aged 3 with his parents John and Mary in Gwennap. JP initially mentioned thinking William may not have been truthful at marriage and his mother may have been Mary. We know he lied about his age and we find no sign of a likely father to fit the information on the marriage certificate. Now looking at this 3 year old Joseph, there is an older sister Mary. (she is aged 15 in 1841) In 1851 we have some of the siblings living together including Joseph. There are a couple of possible Mary's working and then we have this 4 year old William out alone - a lodger in the home of Mary Sprague. I am mentioning all this as I believe Joseph's first son was Joseph Godfrey as I mentioned above. In fact at one of Joseph's other sons marriages in SA he even lists his father as Joseph G. I find a submitted entry on the IGI that fits for Joseph listing his parents as John and Mary Godfrey. (1838) I went looking for a marriage and sure enough:-
John TREWARTHA = Mary GODFREY 9 Jun 1823 Gwennap.
Could be a matter of picking the right birth certificate JP, though there are a few at around the right time. Back to trying to find this Joseph in the 1861 census.
Cheers Kris :D
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Well now this Joseph is the brother of John who married Mary Ann Trestrail Benbow, according to this tree.
http://www.miketree.co.uk/trewartha/f104.htm
Seems they don't have anything further on the sister Mary. Perhaps a place for the name he used at marriage to have come from. Mary Ann Trestrail Benbow didn't have a brother William Henry Bewbow did she?
I still don't see Joseph in the 1861.........Kris :D
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Hi, Kris,
I am back again. I have been busy going thro' piles of paper etc. and this is what I have found.
Marriage Certificate of William Trewartha and Sarah Quintrell. It is the original copy and when we look at it closely in the place for William's parents he has actually put both parents names - William Benbow and Mary Trewartha. Some people have obviously read the Mary as Henry, but the writing on the certificate is very good and the "M's" for Moonta Mines and Mary are identical. Also, information received from a book ( not sure which one now) in the Mortlock Library, Adelaide, SA has the marriage entry as William's parents as William and Mary. They also have his birth date as 9.9.1846. Could not remember having this info. until I went thro' the paperwork!!
Passenger List of the Lincoln -
There was a mention of a Joseph Trewartha(2) and Ellen Trewartha with William T. On looking at a detailed sheet from the YP Council offices, I found that a Joseph Godfrey T. is buried at Moonta in 1894, with a daughter, Elizabeth Jane T. (19 years) in 1896 - the leased plot was arranged with a Mrs. Joseph G. Trewartha in 1894. On checking on the net on the listings of Cemeteries, I found most of the remaining Tre. buried in Moonta cemetery are young children of Joseph Godfrey and Ellen. No record of a burial for Ellen, however. I presume on the shipping listings when they listed Joseph Tre. (2) meant that there were 2 Joseph's who came out, which meant they probably had their son, Joseph Godfrey (b. bef. 1/1/1864, Vogue) with them.
As Joseph G. (b.1838) died when he was 56 years perhaps Ellen remarried as I cannot find her on the All State listing for SA.
I noticed that there is a Mary Tre.chr. 19/11/1826, Gwennap who is a younger sister to John Tre.(who married Mary Ann Trestrail Benbow), who is an older sister to Joseph Godfrey Tre. Keep coming back to her as the Mary on William's marriage cert. as his mother - not a lot of detail on miketree.do.uk site. She was in Gwennap in 1841 Census.
Also,on the site Cornish Benbows - they have John Tre. married to Mary Ann Trestrail Benbow, with their 3rd child a William Tre. but he only lived 2 years. (b. 1849, d. 9/4/1851, St. Day), but in their history on the Benbow's I noticed that Mary Ann T/B, had a younger brother William Benbow, b. 1825, Trevethan, chr. 23/1/1826, Gwennap.
There is a William Henry Tre. b. abt. 1836, Trevarth, son of John Tre. and Ann Halse - don't know if there is any significance with this one.
I feel as if I am getting awfully close - just can't confirm anything yet!!
Regards, JP.
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This is all sounding very good JP. We now have a connection to the known Benbow marriage. He travelled with John's brother Joseph - his wife and son - yes the (2) would indicate there were two Joseph's. Now the marriage cert, listing both parents names. - highly unusual for SA cert I must say, but what wonderful news. It does sound as if William was the illegitimate son of Mary Trewartha and William Benbow. Now Mary Benbow who married John, has a brother William who's age fits with Marys very nicely. The date of birth you have fits nicely with this 4 year old lodger also. Mary is away working and he is being cared for by someone else. The birth cert will probably only list Mary as mother. The only William Trewartha in 1846 is William Knight Trewartha. If that is him I wonder why Knight :-\
Kris :D
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Hi, Kris,
I have not found anything more this week, but wanted to thank you for your assistance. Have been looking on the net, but nothing has come up yet.
However, thank you once again,
JP
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Finally found Elizabeth Ann Trewartha!
Elizabeth Ann dau of William and Elizabeth Trewartha was Christened 27 Mar 1831 at Penznace - St Mary (Madron Chapelry). Father's occupation - Police Officer!
This seems a very early time to have been a Police Officer in Cornwall!
Kilmartin
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Elizabeth Trewartha's father, William Trewartha, b 1798 in Truro was a Turnkey (prison officer) in 1841, a police officer in 1851 and a postmaster in 1861 when he still lived with his wife Elizabeth in Castletown. He died in 1869 in the Newport area.
I think William Trewartha was my Great Great Great Grandfather. My uncle, John Trewartha Lewis was born 1st February 1926 (and his twin sister, Mary) in Wales. They are both still alive and 92 years old now. My aunt Mary still lives in the Newport area.
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William Trewartha KNIGHT born 1856 in Canada, was the s/o Joseph and Mary Ann Mitchell KNIGHT. all Canadians
Di