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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: piestains on Thursday 21 February 08 22:50 GMT (UK)
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I've been having some help with the date and uniform of this photo for some time but what I'm desperate for is a better quality. I'm hoping the poster/book on the floor can be readable or atleast a little more so. My scanner is useless - this was the best I could get out of it
All help greatly appreciated
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Hi piestains :D
Welcome to Rootschat!!
I think if you post a message on the Armed Forces board here on Rootschat, with a link back to your picture here on this thread, you will get expert help with the uniforms which will tie down the date for you.
For now, all I can say is it looks like WW1 or thereabouts, and the book on the ground seems to say "Meteorological Stores"...the sign on the building says "Meteorological office". Are those two fellows holding slide rules?
Prue
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a quick clean
Irene
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That's a photo with a story behind it, I'm sure.
Looks like a book on the floor... Meteorological Stores, and G * R
There is an oval stamp below it and more writing.
Oh I do hope you can get more information.
I would love to know what it was all about.
Good luck.
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I would guess , the man in the middle came up with a 'bright idea' and he's going to receive something for his troubles. ;D Jim ;D
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Really interesting photograph. I was intrigued by the man in the middle with the helmet with the light bulb on top and did a bit of investigating. There is a useful website which tells about the beginnings of the meteorological office - started in 1915 as a section of the Royal Engineers. The website is here http://nigelef.tripod.com/fc_meteor.htm#World%20War%201
I wonder if the helmet and the box between his feet are some kind of communications device for getting the weather information out to the troops - could be a field telephone. Haven't a clue what the light bulb is for. Someone who is expert on these things will, I am sure, tell you.
Also a couple of the men have wings on their uniforms and according to the above website, the Royal Flying Corps used to take the readings, send them down to the team on the ground, the information would then be telegraphed to the front. Again, there will be someone on Rootschat who will be able to tell you better than I can.
Good luck with your search - please let us know how it turns out.
Could the G R on the sign be for King George V.
Ruby
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Would the G * R stand for George Rex and the crest be the Royal crest.
Can't decipher the small print, there is no definition that I can find.
Caz
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Just read your reply Ruby..great minds ;D
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I wonder if his name is Wally? I know a Wally who was with the DoM in England, and still is in Aus. That looks like the sort of thing he would do ;D
Maybe it's a meteorologist trait.
One of his pleasures was moving the hydrogen gas bottles around, so that the mud wasps that built nests on them would get lost when they came back with their next lot of mud. ::)
They all look like they're enjoying the joke, whatever it is.
Leonie.
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Hi
Brilliant photo, I am most intrigued. Definitely serving with the RAF and I would think WW2. I wonder if their uniforms are specific to their occupation. They look foreign to me, Polish or a Russian maybe, under an English command.
MY OH says that the chap, in the middle has a DFC ribbon so he must have been in the war, this medal was given to members of the army who served with the air force as well, I looked that up for there have never had any awarded in our family, despite all the RAF connections.
Rabbit B ;D
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piestain, did you post a message on the ARmed Forces board about this photo? :D
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Doesn't look like it, yet, Prue.
I keep coming back in hope.
I do think the chap in the middle looks the centre of attention, as though they are saluting him or something.
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He's got alot of medal ribbons...wonder whether he was being transferred somewhere else or something? And they took a commemorative photo?
If the Armed Forces people could tell us more about where, when and who, we might be able to work out the 'what'...maybe there are records somewhere, like a unit diary or log?
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I'm intrigued by this photo :D
I just stuck a link in at the AF board...that should bring someone over :D
Cheers,
China
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is it possible to scan just the clipboard on the left at say 1200dpi with no compression, and perhaps we will be able to make out the rest of the writing. It looks like its an award certificate to the Met Stores.... but maybe just awarded to the one man or something.
Certainly an interesting photo, and they do look like they are saluting him or something.
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Whoops I just stuck this on the link by mistake so here it is again
Hi All
The two guys with open neck tunics are RAF officers, Flight Lieutenant with two rings on his sleeve and Pilot Officer with one ring, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_officer_ranks
The other guys have tunics buttoned up to the neck but they are not the battledress that the army wore in WW2. So are they RAF Regiment or some other RAF body?
Good luck
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Yes it has bought someone over!!!
Now then...This is an RAF picture, the other ranks in the pic (not the officers) are wearing the 1922 pattern of service dress tunic...
I would go again for a meteorological section, of the RAF in fact the GR thing says "stores".
The two chaps at the back have W/T headphones on and have wireless operators trade badges on...
None of them have puttees on, but they do have turn ups on their trousers...
The civvy chap in the homburg looks to be late 1920s early 1930s.
All the NCOs and officers have WW1 medal ribbons on, so deffo post WW1, and deffo post 1922...
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It is between 1922 and 1937 as in that year the battledress of WW2 started to come in.
The RAF wore such uniforms up until WW2...
I do not think that there are any foreign troops there....They would wear their own cap badges and not that of the RAF
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Also the RAF went for open necked tunics for all ranks in the 1930s....
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I want to know what those two guys are holding...I don't think they are slide rules, they are way too big and don't seems to have a cursor....
C
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Playing with the brightness/contrast...they are rules of some sort...Set squares for the maps and stuff....
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Please tell me the light bulb on the helmet is a joke..... ???
Rambler
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Rambler,
There is a long cable coming down and he has a ball of cable in his hands, I believe...
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The British forces have always been known for their sense of humour....Hence all the smiles...
I would also say that either he has a bright idea, or has just seen sense on something, or knowing the forces as I do...he may have done something REALLY dense...Ergo he is about to be clobbered by the rulers....!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Sounds more likely Scrimnet!
Does anyone know what the instrument on the box is?
Su
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Well, it's not a rain guage ;)
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From one who knows nothing what so ever about what they are talking about...
Could it be one of those dit dit dit morse code things...
What ever, as it is with the chap with the light bulb and cable, perhaps the two go together, and it was his job.
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The headgear with the light bulb brings up a dim memory of a black and white film shown at a children's morning, perhaps one of the 1930s "Flash Gordon" serials.
The equipment at the man's feet looks like a scientific instrument standing on its carrying box. The instrument stands on a fairly typical tripod mount fitted with levelling screws so the round thing at the top has to be level to function correctly. It looks like a laboratory instrument rather than something that would be operated from an aircraft - there is no vibration damping and the setting the thing level using screws would not be practical in a moving aircraft. Any ex-meteorologists out there who can guess what it is?
Good luck
Gobbo
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HI all
Well this has certainly got us all wondering.
Perhaps if Piestains was to send the photo to the Met Office they would be able to help us. They have a Library and Archive so there may be someone who will recognise the equipment and put us out of our misery!
Regards
Ruby
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Hi everyone,
I have spent ages looking for that instrument, tried all the sites I can think of http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Online%20Museum/Museum%20Docs/Onlinemuseumhomepage.html
This is quite a good one for their museum and so one why not e-mail them a copy of this picture and see what they make of it! Their museum is worth a look anyway!
I think that that those white things are either large slide rules, or a weather measuring device of some kind!
Rabbit B ;D
PS Quite why this website has put it all in is a mystery!
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Well, what ever it is, Rabbit, I reckon it lived in that box, and they have brought it out to display it in connection with...what ever is going on.
Chap with the light bulb and the cable coming down to his hands.
I thought it was a ball of cable he was holding, but looking closer it seems to be the bit of the radio you speak into, while the other two chaps have got the listening bits...
out of my depths and doggy paddling fast in the hope that you can understand what I am seeing.... ???
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I think it is a joke.
They are all having far too good a time. They knew that in 80 years time everyone would be wondering what it was about.
Rog
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The little devils! ;D
They certainly look as though they are taking the micky out of chap in the middle, would love to know what was going on.
And that chap in the background, his face looks so familiar, and I'm sure it's not just because he's 'trying to look like Ronald Coleman.'
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Hi Paula Roger et al,
Wartime boffins were so very inventive, it might have been anything from a prop for a camp show, to a scientific instrument!
I still want to know what the RAF museum would make of it, I am sure that they would be as interested as we are!
They might even be able to name the man in the middle! There can't have been many black men in the RAF at that time, although there were a lot of Afro-Americans in the US forces stationed here later in the war.
Rabbit B ;D
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Splendid photo! ;D A real pleasure to see such an informal group.
Scrimnet has it right.
I have posted the link on the RAF Commands forum and I hope their members will be moved to comment.
Any other photos with this one?
Regards
Dave
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Son was telling me a lot of pilots came over from Jamaica for WW2...I had a look and found this.
It tells a bit about one of them.
http://www.mgtrust.org/car2.htm
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I want to thank everyone for their input, and thanks to Irene and Caz for their restoration.
I had a feeling this photo might receive a bit of attention! I'd posted it on another site a few months ago and it received quite a few posts but nothing as much and as quick as here, so I apologise for not responding sooner.
I found this photograph behind an old family portrait taken around 1915. My grandfather had the family photo for years, (and his father before him) but he didnt even know this one existed.
I've had a lot of help with the date and the uniforms and instruments. The royal met society and RAF Hendon are interested in having a copy thats why I posted it here to see if i could get a better version.
Someone has kindly started to put together a web site for me where people can leave comments and suggestions etc. Once thats up and running I've post it here.
I think its great to see such an attraction to it. It's a real mystery. No one in the photo looks familiar, and as far as I know, no one in the family was in the RAF during the war either! It would be nice if someone saw the photo and said that one of the men was their ancestor!
I'll post a bit of what info I have next....
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The instrument on the floor in the centre could be a Nephoscope!
Someone suggestion balloon slide rules for the two white rulers?
The chap in the middle definitely looks dark skinned! I've been trying to work out his nationality for like ever!
The uniforms are alien to me unfortunitely - There's a lot of talk about the badges etc but I dont know- I'm hopeless at remembering such things. There's talk about canadian badges?
On the original photo the board on the floor looks more like a book - I can just about make out the binder part!!
But whats the most baffling is whether its sand or snow on the ground??!! I personally think its sand but what about the fine powdery snow from very cold and dry places and if its sand then shouldnt the weather be warm and the civilian would be a little uncomfortable in a suit?
Thanks for all your thoughts on this guys
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And that chap in the background, his face looks so familiar, and I'm sure it's not just because he's 'trying to look like Ronald Coleman.'
It's funny you should say that, because someone else said the exact same thing!
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Hi Paula Roger et al,
Wartime boffins were so very inventive, it might have been anything from a prop for a camp show, to a scientific instrument!
I still want to know what the RAF museum would make of it, I am sure that they would be as interested as we are!
They might even be able to name the man in the middle! There can't have been many black men in the RAF at that time, although there were a lot of Afro-Americans in the US forces stationed here later in the war.
Rabbit B ;D
I really don't think the chap in question is black....And I still don't think this is wartime!!!!! :o ;D ;D
If you look at the shadows you can see the light is coming from above, and he is wearing a "hat"...He may also be what was known at the time as "swarthy" in his complextion
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Splendid photo! ;D A real pleasure to see such an informal group.
Scrimnet has it right.
I have posted the link on the RAF Commands forum and I hope their members will be moved to comment.
Any other photos with this one?
Regards
Dave
Cheers mukker!!!!
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Swarthy yes - but black??? No. A tall lad. I can just visualize his legs sticking out of an RE8 or an SE5.
Is there any possibility of a scan of the book by the chap sitting left. There seems to be an oval rubber stamp below the letters GR, this could be the unit, or office, stamp and would be the key to unravelling the jersey.
Cheers
Dave
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I agree Dave, he's dark maybe but not black.
I'm afraid I cant get a better scan than this, and at the moment I cant scan anything at all, which is so frustrating because I'm dying to see more of the book. It is an oval stamp but what it reads is a mystery.
Can anyone help out here? This is the most likely route to solving it.
And thanks for posting it on RAF commands Dave ;D ...
And no other photos with it
I like Rog's thought on it! :D They certainly achieved it
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I am not convinced that the pic is all that it initially appears to be. The mix of uniforms is one thing that leads me to that conclusion amongst others. The two individuals at left rear appear too be remarkably young, the one second left is wearing the rank of LAC or leading aircraftsman and the signalers emblem, as well as the RAF eagle on his shoulder flashes, they are not so evident on any of the other uniforms although officers uniforms did not have them. They have brass buttons were as there colleague in the rear rank and the one sitting down in the front rank do not, the headphones are definitely WWII vintage and possibly earlier, the style and the woven cabling is a giveaway there.
The third guy on the rear rank looks very Eastern European to me and also seems to have an uncomfortable look on his face as if he doesn’t quite share the joke, the same goes for the civvy on the right. His dress would indicate WWII era.
The guy front left is adopting the traditional “official “ service photo pose, IE hands on knees and legs slightly apart, he has a chevron on his left sleeve which I believe was a service award and was not used I believe in the RAF during or at least not after the war during my time (1955-67).
The next one second left with the mustache looks from his rank emblems to be a Warrant Officer however certainly from my time the badge was a lot different than that and it looks more like an army rank badge, it could be the Warrant Officer 2nd class badge which was discontinued in 1939 also the cap badge is wrong it should be a cloth badge in similar design to that of the officer second right.
The two officers are FLt Lt and Plt Off, both with a variety of medal ribbons which I am not qualified to identify. The uniforms look right for the era with the correct shirts with cufflinks and the black tie of the time which later came to be Airforce Blue. They look to be the only ones with a uniform that actually fits, but as they are officers that was usually the case. The helmet it rather intriguing and the light bulb on the top is I believe actually a radio valve I believe he is of coloured extraction rather than “swarthy” as a previous poster has suggested. His facial features indicate that. I am at a loss to explain the significance of the “Slide rules”
The final candidate far right front is again wearing a uniform different to the rest, similar in a way to those at rear left but as he has his arms across his waist it is not possible to identify if a belt is present but I suspect it is. He appears to have shoulder flashes as do all the others but certainly not as prominent as 2nd left, rear. He is wearing Cpls rank and a few medal ribbons, it is also noted that he is wearing white socks!
If what we see is genuine and it is in fact WWII I would plump for Iceland as the location.
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B'dy 'ell fire! That's a turn up!
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Badges etc certainly look like Army ones...but...The RAF came out of an Army Regiment, the RFC, so rank badges amongst the ORs were at that time the same...The WO has the same rank badge as some RSM photos I have from WW1.
I really must beg to differ that this is a WW2 photo. Not only are the uniforms all wrong, the chap in civvies must have fallen through a time portal or is some sort of re enactor who likes to dress some 20yrs behind the times... ;D ;D ;D
The types of shirt collar worn on the pics are also earlier than WW2...I am aware of "make do and mend" but that would be taking it too far....
Back to our swarthy friend...I can discern no facial features that would indicate an ethnicity other than North European Caucasian...nose, ears, bone structure all indicate this....
I would also suggest that the pic is "genuine" and that it is one of those "joke" pics that servicemen have a habit in taking...I have loads...
As you suggest that..
"the headphones are definitely WWII vintage and possibly earlier, the style and the woven cabling is a giveaway there..."
This would fit in with the earlier comments from myself and flakdodger where it is proposed that this pic is from 20s/30s
The RAF at this time was a fledgling organisation and of course variants existed between squadrons as local tribal distinctions were still evident.
If the story is unknown to people...The reason why the RAF went into blue is that when the Russian Revolution took place, an awful lot of orders were canceled with various suppliers...one of these was for uniform material...Russian blue!! This was then given to the junior service!!!
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The two individuals at left rear appear too be remarkably young, the one second left is wearing the rank of LAC or leading aircraftsman and the signalers emblem, as well as the RAF eagle on his shoulder flashes, they are not so evident on any of the other uniforms although officers uniforms did not have them.
I was always led to believe that it was an albatross... not an eagle...Certainly was at (what was) RAF Strike Command when I was stationed there some weeks ago...Even if the "official" title is an "eagle volant and affronte, the head lowered to the sinister"
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WOW!!!
Too much information to absorb! You lot lost me along time ago.
The original I have, is of a really good quality. The 'dark' chap does appear to have caucasian features.
Some one did suggest the man with the moustache was a warrant officer as you did Percy so maybe we're on to something.
I've had it provisionally dated as between 1919 and 1923.
Iceland? Thats intriguing? What made you think Iceland?
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As I said... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post 1922 as they are wearing 1922 ptn jackets :D :D
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I agree...... West Indies type picture..very dry sandy soil....Very Nice
The guy in the center looks like a well tanned seasoned Tenant of the sandy soil Meteorological Stores or wherever this photo is taken........Maybe its possibly Belize....Maybe post 1922 his old buddies from England came to visit his place of residence in the service....
Helmet and Light bulb could be for his idea to take the orders that help decorate his attire and tan....
I love this pic.....Its Nice to see people smile
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There has been some discussion on the ethnic origin of a couple of the erks...and that maybe they are not Brits...
Well...They are wearing RAF cap badges, and the cut of the jacket is IDENTICAL to all of the other ORs, even if the buttons and one of the belts differs...
No metal = no sparks...ummm Balloons???
At the time balloons were filled with highly flammable gas, and any spark would ignite the stuff....
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Weather balloons?
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Quite possible...It is a met section one ;D
Or up in Balloons to observe...
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Yes Piestains - the instrument is a mirror nephoscope. It is identical with the drawing shown on
http://app.nea.gov.sg/cms/htdocs/article.asp?pid=1242#nephoscope
This means that the unit were involved in the observation and measurement of the velocity of clouds and the large rules may have been part of a "grid nephoscope". So which RAF units were using nephoscopes in the 1920s?
Good luck
Gobbo
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I think some of our questions could be answered by getting high res scans of certain bits of the photo, such as the book (probably a ledger book if it's from the stores), the medal ribbons, cap badges etc.
For now, I've been looking at the chap front and centre, and whilst I am in no way an expert in these things, is he wearing a ribbon for the Air Force Cross? It has diagonal red and white stripes. Have attached small clip from the photo, to illustrate (hopefully!)
Prue
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Well folks,
My eyes are not as good as yours, but I still think that a couple of these men are of Russian/Polish/Ukraine appearance. I wish we could get a blow up of the badges, they look different to me!
I still think that the RAF would be glad to see this or perhaps the Imperial War Museum, how about them!
Prue my OH says that it is a DFC.
Rabbit B ;D
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Imp. War Mus. most certainly, Rabbit.
People are so nice and helpful, I found that with the V&A and Portsmouth Naval Mus. when I sent them my mystery sailor.
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Well, not that I can see much but i reckon the first one is an MC...
The DFC was instituted in June 1918 the same as for the AFC...The only difference is in the colour of the stripes...Blue for DFC and red for AFC...
The others are too indistinct...These are in order of precedence, and the marks are distinct, so fairly easy to ID...
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Hi Scrimnet,
I know, I looked that up this morning, but as this is a Sepia/B/W picture so I cannot see the colours.
That's what OH did for a living, newpaper pictures, so I am not going to argue with him. He was looking at the stripes on the medal ribbon. His own medal ribbon matches the one on his medal.
I only know what I looked up, I have not been in the services whereas he has. One of you is right no doubting that!
The only way to find out for certain, is to consult the Imperial War museum or the RAF
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi Scrimnet,
I know, I looked that up this morning, but as this is a Sepia/B/W picture so I cannot see the colours.
That's what OH did for a living, newpaper pictures, so I am not going to argue with him. He was looking at the stripes on the medal ribbon. His own medal ribbon matches the one on his medal.
I only know what I looked up, I have not been in the services whereas he has. One of you is right no doubting that!
The only way to find out for certain, is to consult the Imperial War museum or the RAF
Rabbit B ;D
His own medal????
oooh err....
Something you should tell us??? ;) ;)
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Looks like I left Scrimnet fighting a rearguard action yesterday evening. (Steady The Buffs).
WW2 No
Faroes Gap No
Gentleman of colour No No
(Sounds like a re-run of Margaret Thatcher at the dispatch box).
Things are bubbling nicely on the RAF Commands forum and I thought I should back.
Well done Gobbo - loads of house points....
The instrument by the CO's legs is identified as a Finemann nephoscope, used for determining wind speeds from cloud movement.
The white objects are slide rules used to calculate upper wind speeds from balloons followed by theodolite.
The two chaps with headphones are thought to be the wireless telegraphy (W/T) operators who received data in those far off days before teleprinters.
No doubt the book is the unit's data ledger.
A tentative ident has been suggested for the CO (those medal ribbons are distinctive) and efforts are underway to contact living family to see if they can eyeball their relative.
Watch this space!
Cheers
Dave
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Buffs sir?
No sir!!!
Steelback sir!!!
(Well Poacher and now Grey Mafia...)
So my balloon bit was a good educated guess then eh?? Bonus! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A tentative ident has been suggested for the CO (those medal ribbons are distinctive) and efforts are underway to contact living family to see if they can eyeball their relative.
fingers crossed!
I'm not making any comments as I'm well out of my depth on this one ;D
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Fingers crossed as well,
Morning Scrimnet, of course you get a bonus, Dave has it all in hand by the look of it!
The rest of us now wait with bated breath for the true story!
Rabbit B ;D
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Living relatives Dave? Now that would be something, wouldnt it.
What an amazing find you guys are!
I'm :'( tears of joy
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Everytime I go to this pic I get annoyed that I missed the scratches down the bottom, so here it is again. I've also lightened it a bit.
Incredible stuff by the military gurus..just another example of the amazing talents and knowledge of the Rootschat familia.
Caz
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OK so I'm a Fantasy fanatic, ::) but try this for what's happening....
The guy in the middle is a bit famous, look at his decorations, and he is on a prestige visit along with the guy in the suit. They are having a photograph taken to celebrate the visit.
Only the two with the slide rules knew he was coming, so they are the only ones prepared. That is why the others, a motley bunch, look a bit, oo er, should we be doing this....
Think Ill go away before you shoot my socks from under me. ;)
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I don't know anything about RAF traditions/habits only RN ;)
but do you think he could be getting a send off to
a) his next draft /posting
b) his wedding ;D ;D
My first thought on looking at the chap in the centre was Malta!!! No real reason for it,
Just a thought???
Jo
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If it does turn out to be the chap Flakdodger and his oppos are leaning towards, (quite credibly given the unique medals and decorations configurment) and if it is borne out by the family....
He is as English as the day is long....
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Hi All
PaulaToo may be pushing imagination too far and I would go with Josee. We are looking at the staff of a small meteorological office. The chap in the middle (with the strange headgear) is the unit commander, the chap on his left is the 2ic and the chap on his right is the senior other rank. The civilian at the back probably plays a junior role in the unit such as clerk (if he were more important he would be sitting in the front row). The tradition of such funny goings on was not unknown in the army in my day although ORs and officers did not tend to mix in such an informal manner as this photograph suggests. Probably the F/Lieut has just been promoted/posted/ given an award or is indeed about to get married.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Got you thinking, though, haven't it. :D
I keep throwing ideas in, perhaps one will be right in time :D
It's just that this is such a wonderful photo, I'm longing to know what it's all about.
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Has anybody got any fingernails left. I haven't!
Plenty of info coming out about who we think it is, but two and two can equal five without the family eyeballing, and that will take time.
Please bear with us on this - you can bet that the result WILL be posted.
Too much navel prodding amongst has has gone on to let this one die away.
Frustratingly I have been unable to find another on-line photo of the CO.
By the way, has no-one else noticed the likeness of the chap rear left to celebratory Michael Palin? Now there's a thought ;D
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been in touch with Michael, he say's it's not him ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Buffs sir?
No sir!!!
Steelback sir!!!
They're talking in some kind of secret language....... ;D
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Just a thought piestains,
Do you have a reli in this picture and have you any idea of the date? Is anything written on the back of it?
If you do have a reli, and know which unit he was in could we find out from there what they are up to.
My friend [ex RAF] had a look at this picture this afternoon and he is as intrigued as the rest of us! He is sure that it is a special unit, hence the mix of uniforms, he was actually in the war himself, he fought in Norway!!
Rabbit B ;D
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Always like that when there's a flap on, china :)
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Or even when there isn't....."Snorkers, good-oh" was a stock phrase in our household, it seemed to cover quite a lot ;D
C
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Hi China,
Cracking good saying in our house as well, but you've got the wrong service old boy! 'The Cruel Sea' remember that!
Rabbit B ;)
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Rabbit.. ;D ;D If I may....
A lot of us have been in "a war" (or two)...but unfortunately none of us were in at the correct time for this particular pic... ;)
I will still stand on the earlier comments that this is most assuredly PRE WW2!!
As for the "flap on" May I refer the kind ladies to Kiplings poem "The Young British Soldier" :P :P
The "Steady the Buffs" comment is explained thus...
This famous cry has been rumoured by many to have been uttered on the field of battle, but it was actually born on the parade grounds of a garrison.
It comes from when the 2nd Battalion of The Royal West Kent was stationed at Malta in 1858 and were quartered with the 21st Royal (North British) Fusiliers. Adjutant Cotter of The Buffs, a Scot who had formerly served in the Royal Fusiliers as a Sergeant Major, would not brook any disarray on the parade ground from his raw recruits, shouting "Steady, The Buffs! The Fusiliers are watching you!"
This greatly amused the Fusiliers and they called out “Steady The Buffs!” on the slightest provocation, first in Malta and later whenever the two battalions met from then on. The phrase caught on and was soon shouted whenever The Buffs marched by. It then passed into common usage, even appearing in Rudyard Kipling's novel Soldiers Three (1888) and his play Pity Poor Mama.
The nickname of the Northamptonshire Regt is "The Steelbacks"....This is because of the regiments imperviousness to flogging... My fathers former mob-A name carried on by the One Day Team of the Northamptonshire County Cricket Club...
"The Poachers" are the 2nd bn The Royal Anglian Regt, my former mob...the successors to the Northamptonshire, Lincolnshire and Leicestershire Regts now added to since the absorption of the 3rd bn.
The "Grey Mafia" are Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corp (QARANC) my current mob!
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Hey, steep learning curve here. Always glad of that. Keeps the mind alive.
My old Dad was in the Royal Fusiliers....eh, WW1, of course.
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Hi Scrimnet,
I am a great fan of Kipling, I love all his poetry, have a lot of his books.
I also loved the history lesson on the Regiments, but how could you forget this one, http://www.farmersboys.com/ the music is nice as well! Just lurve military music My OH was in this mob before the amalgamation.
Night night
Rabbit B ;D ;D
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I think I understand every second word ??? ;D that's been posted on this thread...nevertheless...I'm totally absorbed in it and can't wait to see the outcome.
Cheers
Caz
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Hi Scrimnet,
I am a great fan of Kipling, I love all his poetry, have a lot of his books.
I also loved the history lesson on the Regiments, but how could you forget this one, http://www.farmersboys.com/ the music is nice as well! Just lurve military music My OH was in this mob before the amalgamation.
Night night
Rabbit B ;D ;D
Oh dear....
don't get me started on Regimental Marches.... :o :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
I could talk for England on that subject!!!
The Farmers Boy is a well known English folk tune, a version of which was collected in the Catskill Mountains in America...
Most of the old regiments had old folk tunes as their marches, usually the colonels favourite at the time, with a few exceptions such as La Mandolinata. This was heard by the colonel whilst the Beds and Herts were in Italy and immediately adopted as the Regt Quick March...and Ca Ira a French Revolutionary song, which was played by a French band during the Napoleonic wars whilst attacking the Yorkshires predecessors...The CO called for his own band to play it back at them as they successfully counter attacked....
Or Rule Britannia for the Norfolks...The Britannia device was the Regt cap badge...
cont p94 ad nauseum.....
I warned you!!!!
My previous post was just an explanation of an earlier one which seemed to leave some in its wake! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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At least these diversions are keeping the populace entertained as we wait for more int on...what was it???...oh yes.... a photo, wasn't it??? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes, that's what I was thinking...and all this is very interesting!
But Rabbit, daddy was in the Navy...made 18 North Atlantic crossings on a corvette, so it really isn't the wrong service as far as our household was concerned... ;D....And as a matter of fact, I think it was that very movie that had a wall-sized photo of his ship in the lobby of the movie theater...with him on the Aldis right in the middle.... ;D
Cheers,
China
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Hi China,
Sorry I shouldn't have teased you! Accept apology please!
Hi Scrimnet,
Thought that the music would entertain us while we waited for answers.
I sure you can find an RAF march, which would be better.
I was too tired to look last night! Fun though init!
Rabbit B ;D
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Don't know of any RAF ones, the only one I know is the Rising of the Lark for the Welsh Guards.......
Love that, used to sing it at school...
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Scroll down to the Royal Corps Of Signals Band , Regt Marches 1939-45.... ;)
http://www.tillystips.com/dis/mil_band2.htm
Just to say that the Regt March of the Royal Anglians, Rule Britannia and Speed The Plough were chosen because the Regt Colonels of the Regt at the time of the amalgamations in 1958-60 were from the Norfolks and Sufolks, so they imposed their own marches on the entire Regt!!!! The individual battalions retained their own, but for twhen the Regiment "per se" was about it was these two...
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Sorry I shouldn't have teased you! Accept apology please!
Glad you did Rabbit, because I had been trying to remember which movie it was that had the picture of his ship in the lobby! Huge blowup, took up the entire wall, and there was a lady looking at it and saying, "I don't see Bill..." and my dad walked over and pointed and said, "That's him there"... she asked how he knew and he said, "Because that's me, there!"
;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
C
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Hi China,
Loved the story, don't think I have seen that one.
It reminds me of the time we were in Malta. We went to the war museum, and there was a picture of OH Uncle who had been torpedoed just off the coast during the war. He had served on Lord Mountbatten's ship. It was surprising somehow to see it like that!
Rabbit B ;D
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Hello to all,
no sorry, no family contact yet, but I think I have made contact with an intermediary. These things take time.
In the meanwhile I am enjoying the messages being posted. This has certainly got you all chatting merilly away.
Can I add a twopennyworth on regimental marches?
Although I am aircraft orientated and not well up on Army matters, I occasionally get along to the meetings of a military preservation group in deepest darkest Sussex (UK). One meeting was a talk given by our President who had gone in as a Private at the outbreak of WW2, stayed in, and retired as a Lt Col.
So there was this gent up on the stage of this small village hall reliving years of undetected crimes, when he broke into the regimental song of The Royal Sussex Regiment : Sussex By The Sea. Quite a few blokes in the audience, also ex-regiment joined in.
A wonderful memory. Wish it had been recorded.
Regards to all
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Sounds as if you had a good evening.
Looking forward to hearing the news when you get it!
Rabbit B :D
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Hello to all,
no sorry, no family contact yet, but I think I have made contact with an intermediary. These things take time.
In the meanwhile I am enjoying the messages being posted. This has certainly got you all chatting merilly away.
Can I add a twopennyworth on regimental marches?
Although I am aircraft orientated and not well up on Army matters, I occasionally get along to the meetings of a military preservation group in deepest darkest Sussex (UK). One meeting was a talk given by our President who had gone in as a Private at the outbreak of WW2, stayed in, and retired as a Lt Col.
So there was this gent up on the stage of this small village hall reliving years of undetected crimes, when he broke into the regimental song of The Royal Sussex Regiment : Sussex By The Sea. Quite a few blokes in the audience, also ex-regiment joined in.
A wonderful memory. Wish it had been recorded.
Regards to all
Dave
Gave me goosebumps reading that...wonderful stuff, enough to make you want to stand and salute the flag (which could be embarrassing and hard to explain because I'm at work!! ;D ;D) .
Caz
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Hello to all,
no sorry, no family contact yet, but I think I have made contact with an intermediary. These things take time.
In the meanwhile I am enjoying the messages being posted. This has certainly got you all chatting merilly away.
Can I add a twopennyworth on regimental marches?
Although I am aircraft orientated and not well up on Army matters, I occasionally get along to the meetings of a military preservation group in deepest darkest Sussex (UK). One meeting was a talk given by our President who had gone in as a Private at the outbreak of WW2, stayed in, and retired as a Lt Col.
So there was this gent up on the stage of this small village hall reliving years of undetected crimes, when he broke into the regimental song of The Royal Sussex Regiment : Sussex By The Sea. Quite a few blokes in the audience, also ex-regiment joined in.
A wonderful memory. Wish it had been recorded.
Regards to all
Dave
I hope it wasn't the WW1 version which has lots of naughty words in!!!
Basically, the 2nd battalion was on the retreat from Mons and were somewhat disgruntled when the few weary survivors stumbled back behind their own lines were welcomed by the Regt Band which struck up the Regt March, Sussex By The Sea....The battered battalion joined in to a man...But with these disgruntled words
Good old Sussex by the sea, I've "ahem"t 'em
Good old Sussex by the sea, I've "ahem"t 'em
You can tell them all that they know "ahem" all
In Sussex by the sea
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Caz,
gizzus a job. If I did this at work, the electronic surveillance would cause a major disciplinary. I've had to take a day off to indulge my passion.
Graham,
the version I heard was definitely as pure as the driven snow (unless I haven't adapted yet to the local dialect).
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Hope you enjoy your day off, I loved the way you told it! Not goose bumps like Caz, but touched!
I was once on a platform with a battalion of men, saying goodbye to my Fiance, 'they were all singing now is the hour for us to say good bye' all the girls including me were 'blubbing'! Your story reminded me of that scenario, such camaraderie.
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi
Two from me
Mudge
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Hi Mudge,
How did you do that first one it is brilliant! I can see all the details. Can't see the second one quite as well but they are great!
Rabbit B :)
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Oh dear, he's looking more West Indian to me all the time....
I don't mind being proved wrong, so don't worry.
Mudge, those are brilliant restores...the shadows on that folder are getting clearer, but still can't read the darned things.
Oh BLOW!
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I'm afraid there are no West Indian officers of that period with those medals and decorations!
In fact I would be VERY surprised if there were ANY West Indian officers in that period at all...
Some West Indian Flt Sgts came to prominence during WW2 but anyone of an ethnic background in that position at that time in the Regular Forces was as rare as rocking horse poo...
If what the consensus date works out to be true, it was only 10 yrs since the first black officer was commissioned into the British Army ( 2nd Lt Walter Tull, a professional footballer for Northampton), so the ethnic diversity of todays populace and Armed Forces just wasn't there at that time...
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Here is the man himself...although he was of mixed parentage and was bought up in an orphanage with his brother...He played for Tottenham for a while, but the taunts against him made him move to a more tolerant area...Northampton
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/walter_tull.jpg)
Al that not withstanding, he did enlist in the Sportsmans bn of the Middlesex Regt and was killed in action 25th March 1918.
Such was the popularity of him that several of his men made vainglorious attempts to save or retrieve him...They did not, and his body has no known grave...
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Fine looking man. What a sad story.
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Indeed it is...
Wars are full of such stories...
He is commemorated in Northampton with a not very nice "sculpture" by the new football ground,
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/wtm3.jpg)
And the road down to the new ground at Sixfields is called Walter Tull Way.
At Bruce Castle Museum in Tottenham, there are several pictures and some int on him
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Hi Everyone,
As Paula says a very sad story on all counts! Thanks for telling us though!
Rabbit B
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Apart from being the first black officer in the British Army, he was almost the first black player to play for England...
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...and I would never have known about him, if it hadn't been for a photo of a bloke with a valve on his head....
Just goes to show how good this site is.
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Got loads of stories like that to keep us all entertained whilst we wait out for a definitive answer on the photo...
Like the former captain of Northampton Rugby Club, East Midlands and England who founded his own battalion in WW1...
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I was reading recently about the Pals Batalions (Regiments??)
where friends, co-workers and team mates could enlist together. This, I believe led to the Leeds regiment and York regiment etc. The York regiment was known as the York commercials. I think ;D
I'm sure Scrimnet will be able to put me right if I have it wrong.
Leonie.
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I shall post a nice long reply to this when I get to work...but in a word...yes...
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My great-uncle was in the Huntingdonshire Cyclists' Btn, which I assumed at first to be a 'pals' battalion, but no. It was a sort of TA affair where the men were trained to act as bicycle messengers, and when they were sent to the Front, were attached to other regiments. I didn't think anything unusual about that, until it was pointed out to me that Hunts isn't allowed a county regiment after the last one, whose commander was Oliver Cromwell!
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Ouch, now that's nasty.....
Cromwell was a b good soldier in my opinion, even if I am on the other side, credit where credit is due.
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Hi All
A few pages ago I said that the officer on the left of the Flight Lieutenant was a Pilot Officer. I have now checked with "The Boy's Wonder Book of the RAF" and want to revise that opinion. Pilot Officers do have one ring on their tunic sleeve but this is about half the thickness of the rings worn by other officers. The single ring in "our" photograph is similar in thickness to the two rings on the Flight Lieutenant's sleeve and so indicates the rank of Flying Officer. Looking forward still to finding out the who and the what of "our" mystery picture.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Ladies and Gentlemen.............
A reply has been received from the daughter of the chap we thought we had identified. She has viewed the photo and states that her father is NOT present on it. :( :( :( :'(
Ah well, collapse of stout party. It was a tempting trail to follow - a Flt Lt AFC/DFC Met specialist - and so much was being found about him.
An RAF Commands Met specialist is exploring the civilian in the hope that he is a meteorologist.
I plan to try an exhaustive search of interwar years Air Force Lists, so as to make a list of possible identities for the CO.
One more piece of equipment identification is that the object on the CO's head is a thermionic valve and part of the W/T apparatus; the flex from the valve seems to be connected to something like a microphone (in his hands).
So onwards and upwards - nought feet and nothing on the clock.
Please do watch this thread for future developments, I'm determined to crack it.
Thank you all so much for your kind inputs, you have been great supporters and your encouragement is appreciated.
Bookmark this thread - but we are now looking long term.
Dave ;)
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Per Ardua ad Astra, Dave.
I'm sure you will get there in the end.
The tread has been on my list since I first discovered it.
One day, I hope we will know what the *&())*& is going on, and who these guys are.
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Caught up with all your posts today.
I'm overwhelmed with the kindness and dedication you have all shown. What a brilliant site ;D
Dave....shame about it not being the ladies father. Oh well, cant win them all. I managed to get (all be it slightly) better copy of the photo yesterday. Still unable to read more of the book on the floor, but... the CO is holding what very much looks like a 2 pin power plug! :-\
Have done a bit of research myself, although not quite as intensive as some, not many contacts in this area I'm afraid. Looked into the family a bit more and have passed it around more of the mature folk in our tree, but still no clues as to whom, where and why :(
I've enjoyed reading all your posts. They're all very enlightening and so fascinating - and have definately lessened the boredom while we wait for the outcome.
T h a n k y o u :) :) :)
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Well Dave and Piestains,
If all else fails you can listen to all the marches on that website I posted. That will keep you going! I have not yet found one for the RAF! ???
Have you e-mailed this picture to the RAF Museum? I would have done that if it had been mine!
I am sure that I am not the only one who has been hunting through the RAF sites for information. Nil desperandum folks!
Rabbit B ;) :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
PS would any of the restorers blow up the bits of the picture that we need to read! PLEASE!
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This is the best copy I can get - so hopefully some kind soul can work their magic ;D
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Hi piestains
This latest one is less KB than the original posting ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Mudge
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I think it's just how I cropped it. The original is too big to attach
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How big is the original?
When I open the latest one in photoshop its showing 16.8 ins x 12.7 ins! and 96dpi
Please could you rescan at 600dpi with no compression (quality the highest setting) and send it to me and I will repost it for you so that it doesn't lose any detail. I'm afraid this is worse than the first one from a restorers point of view.
I shall pm you with my email address
Jenny
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I've been watching all the posts here with interest and am quite amazed with what you've found out - all the conjecture and facts rooted out - also with some great amusement!
But could someone tell me, or are my eyes deceiving me, why the civilian's double breasted jacket is buttoned up the wrong way?
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;D
It's the right way for a civilian gentleman.
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Thanks, Loneybones, but I've only ever seen MEN's double-breasted suits button from Left to Right, although I do concede Womens button from right to left. I've just had a quick look at some current adverts and the Mens' are all Left over Right.
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Nice point Roli,
Mu suits are left over right but I have a jacket and Tux that are right over left.
Odd.
Rog
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Now that's an interesting point.......
Being a tailoress I tend to notice that sort of thing... but I didn't, so shame on me!
If we were in wartime, I could quite understand make do and mend, and when the buttonholes went having new ones put in the other side... but this is not down as being wartime, so um........
To me, this is another puzzle in this puzzling photo.
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Suttonrog, thanks for that.
I know double-beasted jackets are "ambidextrous" but my line of thinking was that it is, and has been, the convention for men to button L over R. Is there a difference in the cut of your R over L jackets, or your choice to wear them that way?
Paula Too, Was there maybe a different convention interwar? or a difference depending on nationality, perhaps?
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The rule as I have always known it, is right over left for ladies, left over right for gents. I don't know about other countries, but that was how we made them.
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PaultToo
Would be that convention or cut?
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Sorry guys, we are not able to have a better quality scan at the present time. This photo was scanned at a photo shop and put on disc. So thats it for the time being. :(
Roli, with most coats/jackets single or double breasted is convention, no difference in the cut but having said that - with all things there are exceptions and it does depend on the designer/tailor. Nothing more technical than that I'm afraid. I have to admit, I only know of left over right for men.
I did tailor a ladies jacket for myself once and put the buttonholes on the wrong side, in error ::) only my mum noticed - then she would!
Jenny
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Hi Everyone,
I am intrigued by the buttons on the uniforms of the chap in the front, left hand side of the picture, he has a stripe on his arm. Also have a look at the chap in the back row 2nd from Right. [looks Russian/Ukranian ]
The buttons on both uniforms look like self covered buttons [same material as the jacket] whereas the others all have standard English Military issue buttons.
Rabbit B ;D
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It was left over right, cut being made to fit convention, for us.
Oooow Jenny, bet you felt just a bit self conscious over that....
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Just another thought,
The chap in the homburg is dressed in a very thirties style. look at the stick pin in his tie and the homburg hat,
http://www.dadshats.com/homburg2.html that would mean that this picture was taken between the wars!
Rabbit B ::)
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;D Paula... but it was a lovely jacket and I wore it anyway ! anyway, designers were supposed to be "different" :P
thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
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Hi Jenny,
Good for you, it doesn't do for us all to be the same! Variety is the spice of life
Rabbit B ;D ;D ;D
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Here's a Calvin Klein.
Rog
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Don't like the drag round the button hole.... perhaps that's just the way he is standing... ;)
I see what you mean...
Golly, my Dad would have 'died' at the thought of having his coat done up on the ladie's side... ;D
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Hi All
The two ORs with dark buttons also have a button as fastener on their tunic belts. All the others that can be seen except the WO have a buckle as belt fastener - the WO has a shiny button fastening his belt. In the army we had shiny buttons on our best battle-dress and dull buttons on our fatigues dress. Was there something similar in the RAF?
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
Well that explains that then, so have we a mix of Army and RAF here? OR's in the RAF have metal buttons on their uniforms, except on their overalls/working clothes or do I mean fatigues? I will look at the pictures of Dad!
Rabbit B :)
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Hi Rabbit
They have all got RAF cap badges (except the civilian) so there is no mix of army and RAF in the photo.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
Have another look. the chap this the tie and the tie [very modern is definitely RAF but the other badges look different to me!
My eyes are not as good as yours, but I have blown them up and looked at them closely, not very RAF like compared with the other chap! Wish I has a photographic programme!
Rabbit B 8)
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Hi Rabbit
The RAF cap badges vary with rank. Officers have something like an eagle on a laurel wreath under a crown while other ranks have the initials RAF inside the laurel wreath in place of the eagle. You can check this out at
http://www.rafweb.org/Badges1.htm
This page shows officer badges and you will need to click the button at the bottom to get to the next page that shows ORs' badges.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
I had already got this site, but thanks anyway, it was very nice of you to take the trouble!
I just cannot see the &**&^*, other badges properly, have tried blowing them up again, but they are no better!
OH states that sleeve badges on chaps on back row are Army badges, I wouldn't dare argue with him on that! He knows yer know! ::)
What we need are blow ups of these Badges!
Rabbit B
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Hi Rabbit
Like you I could do with larger sharper cap badge images but this lack of detail is quite common on this photo dating strand. What I tend to do is try to find a picture of the likely badge and then reckon how well the smudges on the test picture match the reference. In this case the RAF cap badge is generally round but with the crown protruding slightly at the top and there are large holes at the base and top of the letters. On the photograph you can just about make out the circular wreath shape and the protuberance at the top. In addition you can make out two large holes toward the bottom centre and right corresponding to the spaces in the base of the A and F of RAF and two holes at the top corresponding to the space either side of the A. There is also a suggestion of a hole at the middle of the left side corresponding to the space before the R. So my guess is that they are all RAF and I will hold that opinion until somebody produces a picture of an army badge with a similar arrangement of holes.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Sadly, as previously mentioned, we are not able to obtain a better scan of this photo.
Please believe me we have tried!
Jenny
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Thats it then Folks,
Looks like we are in Limbo till Dave comes back with some news! Can anyone find any more Military Music? At least that would keep us going!
Gobbo and Jenny have much better eyes than me! I cannot see letters or wings!
Rabbit B :) :D ;D
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I'm afraid I can see both!!! :P
The badges are most definitely RAF...no "if's or buts" on that ;)...And the chaps (apart from the civvy) are all RAF...And they are all British... ;D
The good conduct chevron is a hang over from when the RAF was the RFC and part of the army....The only similar badge for the army is...RFC.... this photo is far too late for that...By about 10yrs...Ergo RAF!!! ;)
The chaps on the back row all have RAF badges...Some are similar to period army badges, but army they are not I'm afraid... ;)
Having been in the army for "cough" years and still serving, and having been a militaria collector since childhood, and having lectured on all sorts of mil history in all areas, and having been posted to a very large RAF camp last year for a while, I have had close quarters obs of all badges...
The only other way for these "Doubting Thomases " ( ;D ) is for one of us to take a trip to either RAF Cosford or RAF Hendon museums and take confirmatory photos from their archives!!! Or better still, wave a copy under their noses until they sort it out with a definitive answer!!! :o ;D
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Now then...What do you wish to learn on military music???
How about Kenneth J Alford???
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
OK !!
( As me Mother used to say ..... ooh I do love a military band !! ;D )
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Annie...GO TO BED!!! :o :-* :-*
The question at his time of night is rhetorical...the answer tomos..SWMBO is whinging.... ::) ::) ::) ::) :P :P :P
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well you did ask .... and nobody was around to listen to you !! ::)
PS You'd better sing her to sleep !! :P
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Why not email RAF Cosford a copy and see if they can shed any light ;D on it?
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/contact/index.cfm
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Or send a copy of the photo to the Imperial War Museum along with all our questions...
Mind you, if they are anything like Portsmouth they might take a couple of months to answer... :-\
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I'm afraid I can see both!!! :P
Don't be afraid Scrimnet, just be grateful that you have good eyes.
This one is for Paula, http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6920000/newsid_6929700/6929756.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1
Hope it works, more music to enjoy while waiting for an answer. Curious how it puts all of the link in sometimes isn't it.
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi All especially Rabbit
Music while you wait! It's not exactly military music but it is my favourite song and first came to British wirelesses from North Africa in WWII. Look on
http://ingeb.org/garb/lmarleen.html
My personal favourite is the German Lale Andersen 732 kB 1939. I do not recall having ever heard the English Lale Anderson 1942 but that sounded pretty good today. I did not enjoy the Vera Lynn and Ann Shelton versions during the war - they seemed to lack the poignancy that Lale brings to the song. However, Marlene Dietrich's version sounds very good and there is also a modern English version by Jill Daniels that I enjoy. You can find this at
http://www.jilldaniels.com/LILI-MARLENE.htm
Good luck
Gobbo
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Right then you 'orrible lot...Listen in...
The first from that doyen of musical mirth Stanley Holloway...
'Twere Christmas Eve in the trenches,
In Spain, in Peninsular War
And Sam Small were cleaning 'is musket,
A thing that he'd ne'er done before.
For they'd had an inspection that mornin'
And Sam had gone down in disgrace.
For when Sergeant 'had looked down the barrel ---
A sparrer flew out in 'is face!
The sergeant reported the matter
To Leftenant Byrd, then and there.
Said Leftenant " 'Ow jolly disgusting.
The Duke must be told of this 'ere!"
The duke were upset when he 'eard it.
'E said, "I'm astonished, I am.
I must make a most drastic example.
There'll be no Christmas pudding for Sam!"
When Sam were informed of his sentence
Surprise rooted 'im to the spot.
'Twere far worse than 'e 'ad expected---
'E thought as he'd merely be shot.
So Sam sat there, cleanin' 'is musket
And polishing barrel and butt
While the pudding 'is mother 'ad sent 'im
Lay there, on the ground, near 'is foot.
Now the sector that Sam's lot were 'olding
Ran about a place called Badajoz
Where the Spaniards 'ad put up a bastion,
And Oh! what a bastion it was.
They pounded away all that morning,
Bombarding as 'ard as they could,
And the Duke brought 'is own private cannon;
But that weren't a ha'pporth of good.
The Duke said, "Sam. Put dahn thy musket.
And help me to lay this gun true."
Said Sam, "Ye'd be best askin' favors
Of them as ye give puddin' to."
The Duke looked at Sam so reproachful
And "Don't take it that way." says he,
"Us generals have got to be ruthless.
It hurt me more than it did thee."
Sam sniffed at these words, kind of septic
Then looked at the Duke's private gun,
And said "We best put in two charges.
We'll never bust bastion wi' one."
Sam tipped cannon ball out of muzzle,
Then took out the wadding and all,
Filled barrel chock full of powder,
Then picked up and replaced the ball.
Sam sighted once, right along barrel,
And said,"Righto Duke! Let 'er fly!"
The cannon nigh jumped off its trunnions!
And oop went the bastion, sky-high!
The Duke, 'e weren't 'arf elated,
He danced all around in great glee,
And said, "Sam. For thy gallant action
Ye can 'ot up yer puddin' for tea."
Sam bent down to pick up 'is puddin'
But it weren't nowhere about
In the place where 'e thought 'e 'ad left it
Were the cannonball 'e 'ad tipped out!
Sam saw in a flash what 'ad 'appened.
By an unprecedented mis'ap
The puddin' 'is mother 'ad sent 'im
'Ad blown Badajoz off the map!
Which is why cannoneers wear to this day
A badge, which they think's a grenade.
But it's not. It's a brass reproduction
Of the puddin' Sam's mother once made.
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CHORUS: Who's that knocking at my door?
Big Valerie Wilkins and she lives next door.
Curses, curses! She wants to play at nurses
And I want to play at war.
When Valerie Wilkins comes to play, she is always the leader.
She always gets her own way, the rotten selfish bleeder!
The reason that she bosses me:
I'm 3 ft 7. She's 4 ft 3.
Besides, she's 3 months older than me, so I do what I'm told,
Cos she is six and a quarter and I'm only six years old.
Chorus
When she's in a good mood, she lets me play at cowboys,
But she's got her nurse's apron on, so I'll have to play at hospitals now, boys,
And there's no fun for me in store.
She makes me lie in bed for an hour or more,
Pretends I've got pneumonia instead of just a cold,
But she is six and a quarter and I'm only six years old.
Chorus
Then one day at teatime, I said I want to play with me rifle.
Valerie threw a tantrum, spit right in me trifle,
And then she screamed at me.
She pulled my hair, then kicked me on the knee,
Causing me to spill my tea all on my sausage roll,
Cos she is six and a quarter and I'm only six years old.
Chorus
Then one day it occurred to me, I was six and a quarter.
I'd caught up with Valerie, could hardly hold me water.
I was happy as can be,
And then me ma explained to me,
I could never be as old as Valerie, and then began to laugh,
Cos I am six and a quarter, but she is six and a half.
Chorus
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One for the Northerners....
Old Sammy Shuttleworth of Lancashire
He gave a party, last neet.
All the lasses and the lads were there,
Bunged in the door hole, stuck reet!
The guests were fat and the house was small,
and They got stuck in the entrance hall.
Owd Johnny Bugger got a tin of Vaseline,
He greased all the lobby and they all slid in.
Eeee! There were 'undreds on the door mat,
Eeee! There were 'undreds on the rug,
Eeee! There were dozens on the slop stone.
Little Polly Higgins went and tumbled down the plug,
Eeee. And we heard a woman screamin',
We saw some lace and naughty ribbons blue
And Aunt Maria sat on the fire
And went and burnt her Isle of Wight
And ee by gum we 'ad a right good do.
At the supper there were cow-heel stew,
Real devilled tripe and pigs' feet,
While they were gollopin' the slutch, it's true,
You could 'ave 'eard 'em, next street,
Eee what fun when old Aunt Ruth
Speared a pickled onion on her front tooth,
Eee by gum and the fun were rich
When we all started fightin' for the parson's snitch!
Eeee! There were kippers a la francais,
Eeee! and saucy little Sal
Eeee! she guzzled all the fishbones,
They stuck up her Manchester and Liverpool canal,
Eeee! she were coughin' and a splutterin'
We 'ad to send around for Doctor Drew
And all the lads they stood around
And watched the Doctor fillet her,
And ee by gum, we 'ad a right good do.
After supper there was dustman's knock,
Kissin' all the wenches was fine,
Owd Albert 'Iggins, the lazy lad
He started workin' overtime,
Owd Aunt May, tha knows what she did
She did an exhibition dance on the copper boiler lid,
The lid it bust and we heard a scream,
You couldn't see me poor owd Aunty May for steam,
Eeee! with her brand new evening dress on,
Eeee! there were little Polly Dwyer
Eeee! and some bugger threw a woodbine
Down her camisole and set her shuttlecocks on fire.
Eeee! and they put 'er out wi' water
Just when we'd all got a lovely view
So Albert 'Iggins got a match and set the lass on fire again,
And ee by gum we 'ad a right good do.
At the party there was lots of ale,
But we ran out of pots at 'alf time
Owd Uncle Albert used the chamber Po
And he said it tasted right fine,
Ee what fun when me Uncle 'Orace
Went and guzzled all the metal polish,
'E went black and started to cough
And the polish nearly polished Uncle 'Orace off.
Eeee! when we woke up in the mornin'
Eeee! we'd 'ad the time of all our lives,
Eeee! we were so enthusiastic
Other fellers toddled 'ome with other fellers wives
Eeee! and we thowt it all were champion,
But what that party was we never knew,
'Cos if it was a wedding a christnin' or a funeral,
Eee by gum we 'ad a right good do...
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Spoken
Forget your snow and reindeer and all that damn malarky
Down here Father Christmas wears a pair of shorts.... KHAKI
Chorus.
Oh, Christmas in Australia is Christmas in paradise,
Christmas in Australia is basically, 'Bloody Nice',
Bruce is going steady with Sheila, and Sheila's going steady with Bruce,
And if you ain't got a Christmas suntan, you're a 'Pommie' and you ain't no use
It's ninety in the shade at Christmas, the sun's a blazing 'phew',
So grab a tube of Foster's and a slice of cold kangaroo.
Bruce is waxing his surf board, and waxing his Shiela too,
It's a great Australian Christmas, ya-hoo!
Chorus.
It was a lovely sunny Christmas, we had a party on the beach,
Sang Australian carols, you should have heard us screech.
Our 'Silent Night' put the birds to flight and the likes are heard only seldom,
Of 'Once In Royal Bruce's City', and "O little town of Melbourne."
Chorus.
Bruce and Sheila disappeared round the far side of the truck,
They were gone for quite some a while, we shouted, "Are you stuck?"
Then I had a bright idea, said, "I know what I'll do,
I'll play 'Oh Come All Ye Faithful' on Bruce's didgeridoo.
Chorus.
As the afternoon wore on everyone got paralytic,
A drunken brawl developed from a friendly game of cricket.
Rolf Harris turned up finally to distract us from our combat,
By painting a lovely picture of Rudolf the Red Nosed Wombat.
Chorus.
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From WW1....
If the sjt drinks your Rum, never mind,
And your face may lose it's smile, never mind
He's entitled to a tot, but not the bleedin lot
If the sjt drinks your Rum, never mind
When old Jerry shells your trench, never mind,
And your face may lose it's smile, never mind
Though the sandbags bust & fly you have only once to die,
If old Jerry shells your trench, never mind
If you get stuck on the wire, never mind,
And your face may lose it's smile, never mind
Though if your stuck there all the day, they count you dead & stop your pay
If you get stuck on the wire, never mind
If the sjt says your mad, never mind
P'raps you are a little bit, never mind
Just be calm, don't answer back, cause the sjt stands no slack
So if he says your mad, well - you are.......
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A Napoleonic song of soldiers...
It's of a gentleman soldier on sentry he did stand
He saluted a fair young maid with a waving of his hand
So boldly then he kissed her and he passed it as a joke
Then he drilled her in his sentry-box wrapped up in a soldier's cloak
Chorus
And the drums they go with a rat-a-tat-tat
And the fifes do loudly play
Saying, Fare thee well my Polly dear
I must be going away
Oh come you gentleman soldier, and won't you marry me
Oh no my dearest Polly, this thing can never be
For married I am already and children I have three
Two wives are allowed in the army but one's too many for me
Chorus
It's come my gentleman soldier, why didn't you tell me so
My parents will be angry when this they come to know
When nine long months was up and passed,
this poor girl she brought shame
She had a little militia boy and she didn't know his name
Chorus
If anyone comes a-courting you you treat him to a glass
If anyone comes a-courting you say you're a country lass
You needn't even tell him that you ever played a joke
That ever you drilled in a sentry box wrapped up in a soldier's cloak
Chorus
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About WW1 but written later...
My name is Francis Tolliver, I come from Liverpool.
Two years ago the war was waiting for me after school.
To Belgium and to Flanders, to Germany to here
I fought for King and country I love dear.
'Twas Christmas in the trenches, where the frost so bitter hung,
The frozen fields of France were still, no Christmas song was sung
Our families back in England were toasting us that day
Their brave and glorious lads so far away.
I was lying with my messmates on the cold and rocky ground
When o're the field of battle came a most peculiar sound
Says I, ``Now listen up, me boys!'' each soldier strained to hear
As one young German voice sang out so clear.
``He's singing bloody well, you know!'' my partner says to me
then one by one, each German voice joined in harmony
The cannons rested silent, the gas clouds rolled no more
As Christmas brought us respite from the war
As soon as they were finished and a reverent pause was spent
``God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen'' struck up some lads from Kent
The next they sang was ``Stille Nacht.'' ``Tis `Silent Night','' says I
And in two tongues one song filled up that sky
``There's someone coming toward us!'' the front line sentry cried
All sights were fixed on one long figure trudging from their side
His truce flag, like a Christmas star, shown on that plain so bright
As he, bravely, strode unarmed into the night
Then one by one on either side walked into "No Man's Land"
With neither gun nor bayonet we met there hand to hand
We shared some secret brandy and we wished each other well
And in a flare-lit soccer game we gave them hell
We traded chocolates, cigarettes, and photographs from home
These sons and fathers far away from families of their own
Young Sanders played the squeezebox and they had a violin
This curious and unlikely band of men
Than daylight stole upon us and France was France once more
With sad farewells we each prepared to settle back to war
But the question haunted every heart that lived that wonderous night
``Whose family have I fixed within my sights?''
'Twas Christmas in the trenches where the frost, so bitter hung
The frozen fields of France were warmed when songs of peace were sung
For the walls they'd built between us to exact their work of war
Were crumbled and were gone forevermore
My name is Francis Tolliver, in Liverpool I dwell
Each Christmas come since World War I, I've learned its lessons well
But the ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and lame
And on each end of the rifle we're the same
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And from the Crimean war....
As I roved down through Irish town one evening last July,
The mother of a soldier in tears I did espy,
Saying: "God be with you, Johnny dear,though you are far from me;
For you my heart is breaking, since you went to the Crimee.
"O Johnny, I gave you schooling; I gave you a trade likewise
That you need not have joined the army had you took my advice.
You need not have gone to face your foes where cannons loudly roar,
And thousands fall their victims upon the Russian shore.
He joined the fourteenth regiment, it being a gallant corps;
They landed safe while mentioned upon the Russian shore.
He fought in four engagements with the loss of men each day,
O many's the mother shedding tears for them that's far away.'
"We fought at Balaklava where we did not succeed;
Down in the Valley of Inkerman where thousands there did bleed.
'Twas on the heights of Alma that we did gain the day,
Young Johnny mentioned all to me, though he is far away."
The fighting at Sebastopol would give the world surprise;
It being so hard to take it, the enemy were so wise.
But Paddy's sons with British guns their valor did display,
And together with the sons of France, thank God, we gained the day.
Now to conclude and finish, I mean to end my song;
I'm thankful to the great God that I've survived so long.
Likewise unto you, mother dear, for me you did adore,
I'm happy to return again to childhood's home once more.
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I'll shut up for a bit now....
Nothing like boosting ones stats on RootsChat!!
I do have oodles more though...
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And of course what goes round comes round...
THE YOUNG BRITISH SOLDIER
When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier ~OF~ the Queen!
Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .
First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts --
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --
An' it's bad for the young British soldier.
Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .
When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt --
Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout,
For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out,
An' it crumples the young British soldier.
Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .
But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead:
You ~must~ wear your 'elmet for all that is said:
If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead,
An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.
Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .
If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind,
Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind;
Be handy and civil, and then you will find
That it's beer for the young British soldier.
Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .
Now, if you must marry, take care she is old --
A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told,
For beauty won't help if your rations is cold,
Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.
'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .
If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath
To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! --
Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both,
An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.
Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .
When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier . . .
When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old female dog;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .
When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine,
The guns o' the enemy wheel into line,
Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine,
For noise never startles the soldier.
Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .
If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
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Wey hey, it makes good reading though, and brings a wry smile..........
And in a way I feel it gets nearer to the feeling of the day that all the books that carefully record the details.
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Here you go Paula...
To celebrate your almost 1000 post here is a local song for you...About the Culworth Gang....
Farewell to you, my faithful Nancy
And a thousand times adieu;
For the constable comes up from Brackley Market
And a hundred volunteers too.
No more can we hide in the forest
For fear they might run us to ground
And the wild sea, we'd sailed upon it
Too close to the wind.
For twenty long years, we have roamed the highways
Of Northamptonshire.
From Daventry down to the southern byways
We robbed both the rich and the poor.
For oft-times our families were starving
And the highway it kept them alive,
So the wild sea, we sailed upon it
Too close to the wind.
Tonight I lie in a darkened dungeon
Condemned on the gallows to die,
While the man who gave us away is only
Bound for Australia.
No man could be found to defend us
Naught but abuse came our way,
For the wild sea, we'd sailed upon it
Too close to the wind.
The clouds they rise over Northampton market,
And the crowds pour into the town,
And the people will throng in the streets until sunset,
'Til the hangman cuts us down.
And fifteen children of Culworth
Their fathers are taken away,
And the wild sea they sailed upon it
Too close to the wind.
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Thanks scrimnet, thought I was going to slip in there and no one notice...
My Father (WW1) used to have some very interesting songs which made Mother go quite pink... wish as a child I had paid more attention.......... :D
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Go on Paula, make that 1000 post ;D ;D
Betty
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Thanks scrimnet, thought I was going to slip in there and no one notice...
My Father (WW1) used to have some very interesting songs which made Mother go quite pink... wish as a child I had paid more attention.......... :D
Well for your 1000th...why not list the few bits you do remember...They are probably in my collection!!!
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It's all right, calm down, folks, I've got there....and I can almost here the tumbrel rattling down the street...
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M'lady Paula, do I have to curtsy now ;D ;D
Betty
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Hi Betty,
I recon that is is tuppence more to speak to her now! ::)
Rabbit B ;D
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Gerrof, yer off topic ;D ;D ;D
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Gerrof, yer off topic ;D ;D ;D
You need one of these.... offt
Blast...it won't show...
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Um...perhaps that just as well....................
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Um...perhaps that just as well....................
Actually it's just a smiley holding up an "off topic" notice board, frowning and wagging a finger....
Harmless really....
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Ahhh, the thought was there.........
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This is not off topic scrimnet,
We are just passing time till we hear from David! Reference that picture!
Rabbit B ;D
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I think I'm the last one to pass judgement after my copiuos postings!!!
:P :P :P ::) ::)
;D ;D
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So glad to hear that scrimnet! ::)
Rabbit B :D
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See...I have insight, therefore it is a neurosis, and not a psychosis 8) 8)
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No Comment
Rabbit B ;D
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Neurosis.... psychosis. I think I'd like one of those - at least a refferal to a top notch psychiatrist.
Never fear, things are bubbling my end, with possibly too many things being juggled.
Have faith.
In the meanwhile, your correspondence has been most entertaining.
Mrs Flakdodger's sister in law was a dressmaker and from this she has imperiously decreed that pre-war, buttoning of double breasted suits was no big deal. I stood to attention, as I thought there was a male and a female convention on buttoning.
Emboldened by all this, I tried her on military music. She harrumphed loudly and stormed of to bed. (So you are safe, Scrimnet).
I rather think I caught the martial airs of the Horst Wessel Leid at the far end of the corridor, but I must have been mistaken.
Regards to all
Dave
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Oooh! thats a nasty song about pimps and prostitutes!!!
Is she casting aspersions upon your trade???
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Well that's blown me well and truly away, because I thought that single or double breasted gents were always and with no exception left over right till the modern day... by gum, you live and learn, don't you.
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Hi Everyone,
Buttons and the buttoning of!
In the days of old when Gentlemen were Gentlemen, and wore swords, they walked on the outside of the pavement to protect their lady. The majority of men are right handed, so the sword is worn on the left side, the button on the right means that there is a smooth line to draw the sword! It was a convenient arrangement, for the sword could be drawn without difficulty! This is also supposed to be the reason that we in England drive on the left hand side of the road. It leaves the sword arm free for the protection of the ladies in the days of the stagecoaches, from highwaymen and robbers.
Ladies of the early periods rarely had buttons on their clothing, and by the time that buttons were in vogue, it was rare for a lady of any standing to do her buttons up herself, so buttons were done up from the left for the convenience of the maid who did them for her.
Modern dress is often unisex and buttons either way, or not at all.
Rabbit B
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As an addenda....
The reason why the Yanks drive on the wrong side is that Henry Ford didn't believe that his compatriots could operate gears and things with their left hands!!
Several years ago, I bought via mail order what was advertised as a "baseball shirt" for a popular beat combo of the time...I never wore it as I though it was a girls top...It buttoned up the "wrong way"....
Apparently our male Colonial Cousins have clothes that do up a**e about face
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Why am I not surprised.... ;D
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Hi Paula,
Now I always thought that they drove on the other side of the road because they had the reins of their horse on one hand and had to be quick on the draw with the other!
I love America with the wide open spaces and wonderful roads.
I will look it up tomorrow!
Rabbit B
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Oh Rabbit, you're worth your weight in lucern (or clover, or any other rabbit food) I can just imagine some pommy driver drawing his sword to defend his lady..... down some busy street in London. Now my OH wants to know what I'm all hysterical about. I'll tell him when I stop laughing.
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Hi again m'dear!
That's why they call us the old Country! We have a lotta history here!
Rabbit B ;D
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Now then.....
I have read many books....
I have spoken to learned associates...
My consensus is now that the pic is 1923-25
The chaps with the darkened buttons....RNAS
Royal Naval Air Service
They and the RFC amalgamated to make the RAF....
Hence the mix of uniforms and odd bod bits...
I am still opined that the RNAS ones are balloon chappies
Another dating point is the turn ups on the trousers...
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As an addenda....
The reason why the Yanks drive on the wrong side is that Henry Ford didn't believe that his compatriots could operate gears and things with their left hands!!
Several years ago, I bought via mail order what was advertised as a "baseball shirt" for a popular beat combo of the time...I never wore it as I though it was a girls top...It buttoned up the "wrong way"....
Apparently our male Colonial Cousins have clothes that do up a**e about face
That's not true !! .... you must have bought a "girly" one !! ::)
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Well in my dealings with the "Septics", which have been many and varied....they do seem to have some weird habits.... :P :P :P :P
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I was interested in this photo as the chap in the middle with the bulb on his helmet, looks very much like my Uncle who was in the RAF during WW2.
I am posting the only photo I have of him in the certain knowledge that one of you illustrious people will decide if it is the same person or not.
(http://)
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Pennine, how old is your uncle in the photo and when was he born? The mystery photo, it has been agreed, was taken before WW2
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Did he get any medals, decorations etc?
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Hi he was born about 1920 don't have his exact date of birth but I can get it given time. In the photo I sent he would have been 40 ish. Don't know any more details but as I said given time I can find out. I think his face shape is exactly the same and I do remember him being much younger than in the photo I posted and my memory matches the original one.
Pennine
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I was interested in this photo as the chap in the middle with the bulb on his helmet, looks very much like my Uncle who was in the RAF during WW2.
I am posting the only photo I have of him in the certain knowledge that one of you illustrious people will decide if it is the same person or not.
Sorry pennine,
I don't think that they are at all alike, the other chap has much darker skin and slightly 'bucked' teeth.
Their happy grins are similar, I grant you, but the one in the middle is not your Uncle. :(
I do like the picture though!
Rabbit B ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's the decorations that would give us the best clue....
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Ok just a thought but I will find out about his service career and get back to you. My uncle was very swarthy skinned, though it is not that apparent on the black and white photo which in all fairness is not too clear I grant you that. I think the chins are the same the cheek bones, laugh lines and eyebrows and ears are the same. The black and white photo would have been anything up to 20 years after the first photo so he is bound to have filled out a bit. Plus in those days everyone had false teeth by the age of 30 so the teeth are not a reliable clue.
Anyway no matter. I have printed off the original photo to send to someone who knew him very well as a young man and that will definitely confirm if it is him or not. Thanks for responding.
Pennine
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Hi he was born about 1920 don't have his exact date of birth but I can get it given time. In the photo I sent he would have been 40 ish. Don't know any more details but as I said given time I can find out. I think his face shape is exactly the same and I do remember him being much younger than in the photo I posted and my memory matches the original one.
Pennine
Sorry Pennine :-[ if our uncle was born around 1920, there is no chance that the pic is of him...
The uniforms in the original post were phased out well before 1939 (Especially the RNAS ones) as well as the equipment that is being used...
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Thats what I was thinking Scrimnet,
Though I can see why Pennine thought it looked like him but the dates are out to be the same man.
It was worth a shot though Pennine, you never know till you ask!
Jenny
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Hi All
There are strong similarities between our meteorologist and Gordon. If Gordon is too young to be the meteorologist is he perhaps the son of the meteorologist? I have put the two faces side by side to facilitate comparison.
Good luck
Gobbo
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My goodness, seeing them side by side like that, there is a strong likeness, but not enough to say it's the same man... a son would be an ideal solution.
Once again, I am going back to the decorations, that will be the way to answer this particular question.
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Brilliant way to show the pictures Gobbo.
They do have similar bone structure which was not so apparent in the whole snap! Father and Son is a likely theory.
But I have to agree with Paula, that the decorations will clinch it!
Rabbit B
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This is a fascinating thread, I read it all last night.......fingers crossed we find out who he is :) and they do look very similar.
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Hello Penine,
I can see where you are coming from as regards facial likeness. But as other members have commented, the generational thing doesn't match the 1920s dating of the mystery photo.
As for a family link of your uncle to the mystery man - who I have come to call smiling Jim - what family names are involved and are officers with decorations involved?
As for you uncle's RAF service, why not post what details you have on the Rootschat military page, or send me a private message.
RAF stuff is a passion and I will be pleased to offer any pointers.
Regards
Dave
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Hi All
I have been worrying my little brain about the medals. My private archive includes three medals awarded to a WW1 Private. He got a 1914/15 star, a 1914/18 medal and a victory medal. The ribbons for these are 14/15 star roughly equal bands red, white and blue (the red and blue fading to white at the boundary), 14/18 medal - thin blue bands at outside with very thin black band next then thin white band bounding a broad central band yellow, the victory medal has dark blue at the outside edges and fades through light blue, green yellow to a red central stripe. If I understand the wearing instructions correctly all the medal wearers should have the 14/18 medal ribbon and victory medal at the end of their medal bars. The right hand ends of all the medal bars are similar but I am not sure in black and white whether they do correspond to the 14/18 and victory medals. Perhaps Flakdodger or Scrimnet could reassure us.
They have all got a medal ribbon with a thick dark central section and then light and dark bars. Can we guess what campaign this refers to?
An earlier post identified the Flt Lt's first medal as the Military Cross. There cannot have been many men with the MC and the AFC/DFC surely. Does anyone know how and where we could search to get a list of such men?
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
It was me,who said that it was a DFC. My OH recognised it from his time in the services, if you look at the links the actual ribbon which is usually worn on the uniform has the distinctive diagonal stripe! Both these site show the same medal but the wikipedia also shows the same ribbon with a slight variation in the colour of the stripe. These ribbon badges, can also be worn, without the medal, in civvies, on a Dinner jacket for instance.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/DistinguishedFlyingCross.htm
Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Flying_Cross_(United_Kingdom) this website has altered and you will need to put DFC in the search box and then click on UK!
The MC has a horizontal stripe on the ribbon see http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/mc.htm
Hope that helps. Have a look for yourself and check it out!
Rabbit B :D
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Whoops!
whatta mistaka to maka!
got the wrong box ! How can I delete this folks?
:-[ :-[ :-[
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Hi Rabbit B
Sorry but I was feeling tired and lazy last night and did not bother to check who identified the MC ribbon and so credited "an earlier post" instead of Rabbit B.
I was hoping that the combination of MC and DFC (perhaps AFC) would be fairly unusual and allow us a small list of possibles. However, the sites that you referenced show for WW1 there were 37,081 MCs, 1,100 DFCs and 680 AFCs awarded so perhaps I am being a little too hopeful. Nevertheless, we are looking for a man, who was a Flight Lieutenant in the 1920s, whose decorations start MC DFC/AFC (both without bars). It is difficult with an old black and white photograph to make out the rest of his campaign medals and the very similar campaign medals of his comrades but if we did know this it would help to narrow the field a little further.
Humble apologies for the previous lack of acknowledgment
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
Don't worry about it, life is too short, for all that! but I must say that you are a very nice person , to do that!
Did you look at the ribbons? What did you think? I am sure that he can be ID'd from his medals. Especially as he is so dark skinned.
The credit goes to my OH not me, I just did the writing bit!
We could ask someone to blow up those medals and get a proper look at them!
How interesting that you collect medals and how sad that people dispose of them when they are so hard won. I have got my Dad's and there is no way I would part with them.
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi all
Pru posted a closer look at medals on page 4.
Have been watching this thread with interest - at least it's got my OH interested, he and his brother ex-RAF. Both agree Flight Lieutenant with DFC, era 1920/25. Brother-in-law suggested the location could be one of the met offices near the coast looking at the shoes of the main man - very dusty!
The RAF Records Office at Innsworth is in the process of closing (some staff remaining) but even so contacting them may lead to some ideas on ID and location.
Susan :)
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Thanks Susan,
I had forgotten about that!
Just had a look and it is the ribbons, not the actual medals enlarged, unless they were enlarged later on!
Rabbit B ;D
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Oops!
Yes it's the ribbons Pru enlarged.
Hopefully with that combination he will eventually be identifiable ::)
Susan ;D
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Hi Susan,
It's good when the OH's become involved, otherwise mine is not interested in FH, unless it it his family.
Has your OH been in the services too?
We will get there between us!
Rabbit B ;D
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Lucky you, Rabbit, if it isn't blue and gold and going 'Chelsea, Chelsea,' it's of no interest to my dearly beloved....but we've gone a bit quiet on the Chelsea front the last few days...now I wonder why ;D ;D ;D
I still say a copy of the photo could be sent to the Imperial War Museum, asking How? What what what? When and why?
Of course, you might have to wait for an answer....
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Hi Paula,
I agreed with you on that one when we started this lark!
Rabbit B
PS I had not idea that your dearly beloved was into the 'flower show' ::) te he!
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Nah, Rabbit, more like the pensioners... come to think of it, that's how they are playing at the moment, even a football free zone like me can see that.
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Phew ...just caught up with all these posts gang ...
Pennine can you email me or post a higher res scan just of your Uncles head .... pref 1200 dpi ... The likeness in my view is uncanny...
the shape and placement of ears and eyes and mouth would lead me to think it likely there could be a genetic link ...
Poll :)
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While going through some other family pics I came across this one!
I dont know....there seems to be a bit of a likeness to the chap next to the civy....what do you guys think??
His name is William Percival Ivins he was born in 1908 in Monmouth.
**been having problems with my photo editor so i cant place the two side by side**
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Hang on....not the best of copies....
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mouth, chin and nose very similar! ;)
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I was thinking the nose and mouth looked similar, but the eyes are a bit different....
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Hi All
The boy looks a lot like the airman but they cannot be the same person unless we are looking at actors on a film set. The airman has no medal ribbons but is wearing what we think is the uniform of the RNAS. The uniforms and decorations point to the period shortly after 1918 (we seem to be saying 1922). Because of his uniform the airman must have enlisted in the RNAS before 1918 but did not see active service (no decorations). The boy would have been 10 in 1918 and even in those days would surely not have been enlisted.
What do we know about the Ivins family - was there an older brother who could be the airman?
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hi all.
just popped back to the thread and there is a LOT to catch up on.
Gizzus a few minutes and I will be back.
Cheers
Dave
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Right oh,
Gobbo, thanks for holding the fort. I am a complete dunce with medal ribbons and have had to be guided by my RAF list chums, especially as in a black and white photo it is almost impossible to discern whether we have here a DFC or an AFC.
The first candidate had an MC AFC and DFC and a Met posting. Perfect, except that family contact ruled that candidate out.
Work is underway on candidate number two who is a MC DFC and a Met posting has just been confirmed.
As you say, it ought not to be too difficult - and from a list of 52 possibles we are working on four.
The specialist archive approached has been the RAF Museum. Sorry to say, Susan and PaulaToo, contact with Innsworth and IWM will be non-runners.
At RAF Personnel Records it is a cold blooded next-of-kin-and-pay-your-money exercise. The IWM photo collection does have a card index (their on-line photo collection is an angel on a pin head) and they are too busy to respond to a general photo request like ours. A pity.
Piestains, after my private messages, I am intrigued to see the photo of William Ivins and his resemblance to "Mikhail Gorbachev" - and he is also standing in front of a brick wall. Aaaaaaaarg!.
Gobbo is spot on regarding the photo, we are sure is early 1920s and William would be too young to be in that photo. But an older brother could be food for thought.
And so to bed.
Dave
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That's Ok by me, Dave, if they don't do, they don't do....rotten lot!
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Hi
I used to live in a house numbered 229, and keep seeing this number cropping up. So I couldn't resist taking this 229th slot
What's the largest numbers of replies / resposes on this site ??? Does anyone know ???
Mudge
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Had a feeling William was too young. He had three older brothers, but none look remotely like him. Victor died in 1916, and the other Fred is my great grandfather! leaves just one Alfred...no resemblance.
Dave, no luck on my part.....I'm a bit of an amateur!
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Hi Everyone,
Has anyone tried asking the people who run this site if they have any information on a picture like this! have you considered posting the picture there http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/index.html
You might get someone who knows or knew one of the men in the photo! Another avenue perhaps?
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi All
I am not so sure that Alfred is not the airman. I can remember that in my twenties when I started full time work and did not partake in sport twice a week that I put on several stone quite quickly and my face became fatter. The airman's posting may be quite a cushy number and perhaps with little exercise and too much pie and beer slim Alfred has indeed turned into plump airman. There are differences in the eye shading but this may just be the difference between a good snapshot, taken in bright light and the more carefully lit professional group photo (the shadows of all the peaked caps do not obscure the facial details - with the snap lighting the shadows from the peaks would have been much heavier.
So how old was Alfred and what else if anything do we know of him?
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hiya Gobbo,
Consider this:- Eyes slanted all wrong, lips too thin. Chin is similar, but not the same, ears look wrong to me!
One looks either Russian, Polish or Ukrainian, the other English. I am sticking to my guns here
Rabbit B
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He is RAF and BRITISH!!!!!!
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
::) ::) ::)
:o :o :o :o :o
;D
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Yes Piestains, how old was Alfred? On Freebmd I can see three likely, 1883, 1894 and 1896. the 1896 chap marrying in 1918.
I'd want to keep and open mind, especially as I am a walking advert for pies and beers.
Ironic that I was coming to you to flush out family details and locations on account of the family locus of CO candidate 2.
Bright blessings, Rabbit - but can I tell you that the Mikhail Gorbachev chap looks a lot like my uncle Charlie - and the nearest he got to the Volga Boatmen was the end of Southend Pier.
Dave
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Are you the chap who plays "Big Bob" on the Al Murray TV show then???
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Close - but he is more handsome
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Hi All
I deduced from the absence of a medal ribbon that the exRNAS airman had not seen active service in WW1. This may be a false assumption. My ancestor, who was wounded and discharged during the war did not receive his 1914/15 star until Oct 1920 and his other medals were posted to him even later. So it may be that the exRNAS was entitled to some medals but had not received them when the photograph was taken if it were taken in 1920/21. This makes me think (despite Rabbit) that Alfred Morgan Ivins born in Monmouthshire, 1896, could well be the exRNAS airman.
Good luck
Gobbo
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That sounds v. good to me matey...
I am also opined that Rabbit is mis reading the photo ::) ::)
;D
I do not think your assumptions are wrong either re the RNAS chaps.....
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Hi Gobbo and Scrimnet,
My Father was in the RNAS. Gobbo, you should have a letter from the King, which was given to all the Service personnel after the Great War. I have a copy, I also have Dad's service records. But I wonder if they all got medals if they had not served overseas. They usually have to have served in the battle zone for at least 6 months.
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi Rabbit
I found the medals amongst our papers but I have not found the letter from George V, it may be lost or just in another box away from the medals.
You are quite right about the need to serve in an operational theatre. For the RNAS this is defined as service at sea (excluding harbour duties), service in any of the Army operational theatres or flying over the sea. The exRNAS airmen have not got wings so were probably not employed in flights and they may have been lucky enough to spend the war on a home base but I do believe that many of the RNAS units were employed alongside the RFC providing air support in various of the military operational theatres. See
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/ww1_victory_medal_award.htm
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hello all,
I have got permission to be abscent from the household this coming Saturday and I am going to toddle over to Kew and do a bit of digging on a couple of CO candidates.
I will also have a look at AIR 76 and list all the Ivins listed (RAF other ranks 1918-19(I think)65).
Dave
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Thanks for the website Gobbo,
Most interesting.
Hope you do well in your search Dave!
Still think that the picture should go to the RAF. or have I missed something along the way
Rabbit B ;D
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I have extracted all the IVINS listed in AIR 78 (RAF other ranks 1918-1975) and sent this to Piestains.
There were five that were in service on 01 April 1918 (the formation of the RAF) and their details are .........
AIR 10/237 RAF Muster Roll 01 April 1918 Vols 1 + 2 numbers up to 223200
1458 Ivins F J Pre RAF trade Driver MT RAF trade Driver Pre RAF rank Sgt RAF rank Sgt Mechanic Joined 11/08/14 last promotion 01/03/17 in for duration of war
17375 Ivins P P Pre RAF trade Storeman RAF trade Storeman Pre RAF rank Air Mechanic 2 RAF rank Clerk 2 Joined 06/01/16 in for duration of war
100329 Toins J L Pre RAF trade misc (aviator) RAF trade misc (aviator) Pre RAF rank Air Mechanic 3 RAF rank Private Joined 23/10/17 in for duration of war
165049 Ivins A W number part of a batch unallocated at RAF formation date
224945 Ivins A J possibly also issued c1918
Note the A W Ivins, initials that correspond with Piestains' relative. The other Ivins that were listed in AIR 78 have numbers that are later than the period of the photo.
Other developments?
We have candidates 2 and 3 for the CO, two gents with similar decorations and postings. The building in the background is identified as an RAF Meteorological building. The photo has been lodged with the RAF Museum, where the niche community will offer a friendly interest. Finally an approach has been made to the local library service regarding a possible obituary for candidate 2.
Now, where is my deckchair???
Dave
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Crikey, you've been busy...well done.
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Good on yer Dave,
Nice to know that. Did it tell you where these people were from in their records?
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi everyone. Wow, so much has gone on since my last visit here. I'm loving the history lessons....you guys...and gals are in the wrong profession. You should have all replaced those dreadful dreary history teachers we had in school. I may well have learned something that lasted my memory. ;D
Again, I feel compelled to thank you all ;D I'm not only learning things I didnt know, I'm (meeting)! such lovely people who are so very generous with their time and knowledge - something which is rare these days. You've put my faith back in human kind. Another cheesy grin needed I think ;D ;D
Ok, well dave, I've PM you but I dont think there are any connections there unfortunately.
Also on another dissapointing note, someone kindly put it to my attention that it is not Alfred on the photograph :( He was discharged in 1918 after a short enlistment of the army. Medical reasons excluded him so therefore there's not a chance he could have been still been serving King and Country during the time of this photo.
I'm feeling very pessimistic right now.....We seem to take one step forward and two back. I'm running out of options with the family, I mean, I have only mainly names and dates but nothing appears to match. Most definately a head to brick wall moment :-\
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So if you run up against a wall Piestains, you have gained a lot of extra knowledge. That is never a burden to carry.
Wait and see is the motto! You never know what will turn up in this game!
Rabbit B ;D ;)
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Oh no. Disappointment is not the name of the game. It merely rules out an Ivins connection to the photo and encourages the geographic link to family of candidate No 2 for the CO.
Bye the bye, the details from the listing were all that was to be had. No places of origin.
Wait and see, indeed, you will be pleasantly surprised.
Dave
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Hi Dave
Am waiting with baited breath for the pleasant surprise ;D ;D
This is about the first time I've got my OH interested in a RootsChat post, both he and his brother ex-RAF. Brother-in-law served in Iceland in WWII, was an electrician and also repaired radios.
Susan :)
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Is there anything new to report on this amazing thread??
dollylee
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Not yet Dollylee, not yet.
Rabbit B ;D
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I have it on the grapevine that the Imperial War Museum has confirmed that it is between the two wars and RAF.
Well thank you the experts. We know that already.
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I have it on the grapevine that the Imperial War Museum has confirmed that it is between the two wars and RAF.
They have also confirmed:-
...Mafeking has been relieved...
...Queen Anne has died
And apparently the Pope is a Catholic
;) ;)
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Gettaway, i would never have guessed ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well............our RAF research group has wrestled the CO down to one of two people.
Either way:
It is the earlier part of the 1920s
It is Egypt or Iraq
The season is winter - hence the 'temperate' climate clothing, rather than lightweight KDs that you would associate with a hot climate.
Oh, and the CO's helmet is fashioned from a "Benghazi Bowler" the well known pith helmet.
Tall, isn't he ;) ;) 8)
Dave
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Scrimnet,
I have just clocked your new avatar.
Sam Brownes, lanyards and swagger sticks akimbo. Very impressive.
Pleased to see that you are still quoting Von Moltke.
Cheers
Dave ;D
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Scrimnet,
I have just clocked your new avatar.
Sam Brownes, lanyards and swagger sticks akimbo. Very impressive.
Pleased to see that you are still quoting Von Moltke.
Cheers
Dave ;D
:-X ::) ;D ;D::) ;D ;D ::) :-\ ;D ;D :-X
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I think I am about the only one "in my line of work" that still wears a full Sam Browne...ie double braces...I am also, most probably the only one who still does it in black and white..... 8)
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HI all,
Mystery of who it is has been solved thanks to one ofthe Met researchers and his contacts on the RAF Commands site. See below:
'About four months ago Dave started this thread, seeking help in the identfication of the people in the photograph at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,287542.0.html, and the location.
One of my colleagues has been working hard behind the scenes and has identified the Flt Lt as Herbert Seton Broughall, who died as Gp Capt Broughall (Rtd) on 18 April 1955 at Menai on Anglesey. The identification was made by his great-nephew. The photo could well have been taken at Abu Sueir in Egypt.
He had a daughter, Jane Felicity Strathy Broughall who married David A Shawyer in 1951; we've been unable to find a death certificate for either of them, which suggests they are still alive (about 80), but an attempt is being made to trace them in the hope there may be an annotated copy of the photograph.
The name 'Shawyer' is quite unusual, most seeming to live in the southern counties, but the telephone directory has yet to provide a hit.
If anyone has any ideas I'd be grateful to hear them.
Brian'
URL for this thread on the RAF Commands site is:
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10368&posted=1#post10368
Regards,
Ann
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Hi Annsa,
This is wonderful news, after all this time! Congratulations to all the people involved, for all their hard work ! They deserve a medal!
It would be nice to find this family. What about Piestains who posted this picture in the first instance, where did he get it from and so on? Is he a reli on one of the Men?
I am intrigued to know about that hat!
Rabbit B
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From Hugh Halliday's database of awards to Canadians in the Air Force:
BROUGHALL, Flying Officer Herbert Seton - Order of St.Anne, 3rd Class, with Swords (White Russia) - awarded as per unknown date and authority; listed by Ray Brough, White Russian Awards to British and Commonwealth Servicemen During the Allied Intervention in Russia 1918-1920 (London, Tom Donovan Publishing, 1991), which spells name "Broughal". Home in Toronto and attended Upper Canada College. Joined British Army in England, 1915; awarded Military Cross, London Gazette dated 22 September 1916 for service with Royal Sussex Regiment (first time under fire). To RNAS, 3 December 1916. With No.10 (N) Squadron, 7 August to 21 September 1917. Shot down on latter date (or 22nd) and became POW. Repatriated in December 1918; sent to Russia, April 1919 (No.47 Squadron). Later awarded Distinguished Flying Cross as per London Gazette dated 11 June 1924 "for distinguished service rendered during operations in Kurdistan between 15th February and 19th June 1923." Flight of 29 November 1923 reports him as going to No.216 Squadron, 14 October 1923. Aeroplane of 3 February 1932 reports him going to No.22 Squadron, 8 January 1932. Remained in RAF and rose to Group Captain. Barker once asked that he be seconded to RCAF.
BROUGHALL, Flying Officer Herbert Seton - Order of St.Stanislaus, 3rd Class, with Swords (White Russia) - awarded as per unknown date and authority; listed by Ray Brough, White Russian Awards to British and Commonwealth Servicemen During the Allied Intervention in Russia 1918-1920 (London, Tom Donovan Publishing, 1991) which spells name "Broughal".
Hugh may have further information as some time ago I did look at some of the early Air Ministry files which were copied and sent to Canada.
Regards,
Ann
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Oh, wow!! :o :D
What a fantastic result - absolutely amazing. I take my hat (or should that be pith helmet?) off to all you experts who kept digging for the answer :) :) :) :) :)
Prue
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Double WOW.
After all this time, finally an answer.
Congratulations and pats on the back to all.
Leonie.
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Can I add my WOW to that...
Fan blomin tastic!
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Well, there's still investigations going on. So if anyone is able to look up and find a David A Shawyer and/or his and Jane Broughall's children, James, Penelope and Annabel it would be great. I don't have access to any GRO indices as my Ancestry membership has lapsed due to lack of funds (spending all my money on diesel at present!!)
Jane Broughall died in Oxfordshire I believe in 1983 and I believe that James was the eldest child born in Gloucestershire in 1953.
Cheers,
Ann
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Hi all,
Just had an update from Brian as follows:
'This was really all the work of Malcolm Walker. He's effectively the archivist of the Royal Meteorological Society, and he'd been sent the photo privately because of his meteorological connections. Initially he'd made no progress and filed it as something to be looked at in due course. When Dave copied the thread over to RAFC from Rootschat, because of a modicum of knowledge about the RAF I thought I could date, and place the photo reasonably accurately.
I then took it to Malcolm and the additional info re-sparked his interest. Why he settled on Broughall I don't know, although I've just asked him.
Thanks for your suggestion about Hugh, but Malcolm has already been in touch with the Canadian side of the family, but it knows nothing.
He's just advised he's located Jane's grandchildren!
I'll place an update on RAFC.'
Regards,
Ann
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Just had a bit more of an update. I hope that Piestains is getting all this. I'm sure that the family of Broughall would be interested to get in touch whenthis is all sorted out by Malcolm. If she/he would like to contact me, I can put her in touch with Brian who has Malcolm's contact deatils. Anyway, this is the lastest, not much more info thanpreviously posted by contains a little more background details:
'The credit for identifying the Flt Lt and location of the photo belongs solely to Malcolm Walker, effectively the archivist of the Royal Meteorological Society. He and his good lady have put a tremendous amount of work in chasing this down, and the latest news is that they have found some of Broughall's great-grandchildren.
Hugh's database is missing some of Broughall's movements during the 1920s, including two of interest in this story; Broughall was transferred to No 4 FTS, Abu Sueir, on 16.8.24 and he returned to the UK wef 25.3.25. 4 FTS was involved in making meteorological ascents during the early 1920s, and especially during this period, so that is the possible meteorological connection. It is also possible that he might have had responsibility for the Abu Sueir meteorological office as a secondary duty (at the time meteorological offices at RAF stations overseas were manned by men of the RAF Meteorological Service).
The two dates are important because if the 4 FTS connection is correct then the photograph has to date to that time frame.
Malcolm has already contacted the Canadian branch of the family, but it has no information that helps with this photograph.
Brian'
Regards,
Ann
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There is no such thing as journey's end, but applause to Malcolm and his wife for a lot of hard work. The 4FTS brings a link to the photo as well as family ident.
Well done all.
dave
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Hello again....been absent for a wee while, havent been my best ??? so apologies to those who carried on without me and made such wonderful discoveries :D
I am thrilled someone has been identified even if it wasnt one of my relatives! I am happy for anyone to get in touch as i'm sure the photograph will be of great sentimental meaning.
Please please keep me updated guys and once again i sincerely apologise for my absence but am back for a long haul now
ps I must say a huge thanks to all who helped especially to Malcom Walker
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What a fantastic thread this has been,
Dave & annsa have we now got all the answers. Like what was the purpose of that hat!
Rabbit B ;D
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Piestains,
welcome back. The thread popping up again was a pleasant trip down memory lane. I am now addicted to the Photo Restoration board, occasionally there is an aeronautical theme that I can help with.
Cheers
Dave
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Jolly well done!!
See...RC most deffo has uses! 8)
;D ;D ;D