RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: suey on Wednesday 20 February 08 11:12 GMT (UK)
-
Henry (Harry) Lowther aka Muttoneye was born in Whitechapel c1886.
It is said that he made his living playing a portable harmonium
Later known to have lived in or around the Elephant and Castle.
He appears to have been well known around the East End, he's even named in this poem 'The Bermondsey Boys' by Terrence Dinan.
"Remember the pubs, 'The Hole in the Wall',
'The Stingo' and 'Feathers', 'The Moonies' and all?
And old 'Muttoneye' wedged in the door of a bar,
with harmonium he'd carried, goodness knows from how far!"
If anyone knows or has heard stories about Muttoneye I'd love to hear them!
Suey
-
Hi, Are you looking for him in any census, or do you already have that?
What information have you got?
Jennifer
-
Hi Jennifer - Thanks for taking an interest. We have Henry Albert aka Harry aka Muttoneye in census and his first marriage.
It does seem from stories told us by relatives that he was quite a character! As he was actually imortalised in the Bermondsey Boys poem we wondered if any London Rootschatters had heard of or stories about him?
-
Hello
i remember Muttoneye he used to play his harmonium outside the Odeon cinema Mile End . and outside west end cinema's but i am sorry i do not know any of his history just remember him he was a character always wore a bowler hat
regards
Marie.
-
Hi Marie - thanks for replying. We're beginning to find snippets of info on Harry, good to hear from someone who actually remembers seeing him out and about ....
Suey
-
Hi all!
I am smiling reading this as I am Muttoneye's granddaughter. The stories I get from my mum about him always make me smile, he definitely was a character ! I have just started trying to compile a family tree and he really is hard to track down, I think he went by the name of Lowther but my mum (Fread Lowther) says that his father's name was Reuben Silverman or Pressman. He never married my grandmother although they lived together and had 4 daughters, Frances, Freda, Penelope and Jospehine. My mum is in her 80's now and she can't remember too much more about his parents, any help would be gratefully received!
-
Hello Diana - great to hear from you! Confusion all round with this family where surnames are concerned. You are not far out though with the Silver and Pressman.
Henry (Harry, aka Muttoneye) Lowther was born c1886 Whitechapel, Deptford area of London.
Appears in 1891 census at 22 Creek Road Deptford with his mother Hannah and 3 siblings...he seems to be the eldest child of nine children.
His parents were Reuban Lowther and Hannah Dickenson
Reubans father was James Lowther Silva Carvalho a mariner born c1811 Madeira. Ruebans mother was Mary Ann Pressman b1814 Blackwall.
I have also sent you a personal message re this family.
Best wishes
Suey
-
been wrestling for 20 mins couldn't see the reply box!!!!! Ok I'm Fanny Lowther's granddaughter Muttoneye her brother " Suey's " been talking to you we have the same info more or less and as she is part of the Rueben side ofthe family we have done really well but any info you have on Uncle Harry Lottie Billy would be great Daph was asking about a diana said she used to see her at Fannies would that be you or your mum .
I have limited contact with Lotties son (by another husband) and good contact with others of rueben's family..
-
Hi Glynis!
I will try to get more information for you but I have been trying to contact my mum all day with no luck, I do remember hearing about mums aunt Fanny, but the Diana Daph remembers is not me or my mum, my mum's name is Freda. Muttoneye had 4 daughters with my mum's mum who was Emily Jane Jacks or Squires - they were not married. The only contact I have with the Lowthers is my mum's sisters, Aunty Penny (I have always thought she was Penelope but may have been christened Henrietta) and Aunty Frances the other daughter of Muttoneye with Emily Squires was Josie but she died about 10 years ago. I do believe that Harry was married before he met my grandmother - I would love to know if anybody has any photos of Reuben or Hannah - unlikely I know but one can hope !
-
Henry (Harry) Lowther aka Muttoneye was born in Whitechapel c1886.
It is said that he made his living playing a portable harmonium
Later known to have lived in or around the Elephant and Castle.
He appears to have been well known around the East End, he's even named in this poem 'The Bermondsey Boys' by Terrence Dinan.
"Remember the pubs, 'The Hole in the Wall',
'The Stingo' and 'Feathers', 'The Moonies' and all?
And old 'Muttoneye' wedged in the door of a bar,
with harmonium he'd carried, goodness knows from how far!"
If anyone knows or has heard stories about Muttoneye I'd love to hear them!
Suey
Hello
I am trying to track a copy of the poem 'The Bermondsey Boys' by Terrence Dinan. Could you or anyone else on here post a copy as I believe that it has connections to my family that were brought up in Enid Street Bermondsey?
Thanks in anticipation!
Sanders
-
Hi Sanders :)
This is all I have of the poem....you will see it says 'part of' so I assume it is only part of the poem, not been able to find any more despite google search :(
Bermondsey Poem
Part of a Poem dedicated to Canon Arbuthnott by Terrence Dinan
Bermondsey, my Bermondsey, never out of my mind.
A place on the map, one can easily find.
Where are the houses, the folk that I knew?
The streets have all changed, and faces are new.
Remember Dockhead? And Father Murnane?
A priest to whom no one e'er turned to in vain.
A man for the people, in Church or at Court.
He lived for his parish, for his parish he fought.
The Catholic Procession, What an annual event!
Those streets lined with people, and many knees bent.
The hymns and the floats, the lorries and vans.
The noise and the hush, the prayers and the bands.
Those Orpington boys, their pillbox on head.
Their drum and fife band, the tears that were shed.
Those bright sturdy lads, orphans each and every one.
Touched the hearts of us all, our feelings were wrung.
The Downside and Fisher, Remember those clubs?
Kept lads off the streets, and out of the pubs.
The pursuit was sport, and all played the game.
Danny Lynch and some others, achieved national fame.
Father Stephen who sponsored and founded both clubs.
And Freddie Kirkpatrick, who reined in the subs.
The war changed it all, and many are gone.
The rest are old men, but Club spirit lives on.
Remember the cinemas, 'The Storks' and 'The Star'?
A sidedoor conveniently, left on the jar.
One crept up the stairs, and bided one's time.
Then mixed with the crowd. Who'd call it a crime?
Remember the pubs, 'The Hole in the Wall',
'The Stingo' and 'Feathers', 'The Moonies' and all?
And old 'Muttoneye' wedged in the door of a bar,
with harmonium he'd carried, goodness knows from how far!
Bermondsey, Bermondsey, we were all of us poor.
No violence, no muggings, we kept to the law.
The neighbours so close, and the people so kind.
Those faces and places, never fade from my mind.
The epitome of my passion for Bermondsey - my first and last home
Hope this helps
Suey
-
Hi Suey
That fills in the five missing lines of my version . ;D
I am also checking it out with the Priest at Dockhead, Holy Trinity Church. I will post what I find out.
Thanks for your kind help! ;)
Sanders
-
Hi
I believe I might be the Great Nephew?? of Henry Lowther. me - my mother - William J Lowther - George Lowther, brother of Henry Lowther - Reuben Lowther Carvahlo. I dont have direct contact with any Lowthers (apart from my mother!), as my grandparents separated when I was 7-ish, and no one kept in touch with that side of the family.
I am researching the Lowther family, with my mother, on ancestry.co.uk and found Henry accidently on Rootschat.
If anyone has any information, or can point me in the right direction, regarding the Lowther family I would love to hear about it, and to confirm I have the correct Henry. I would be happy to share what I have found too.
Terry :)
-
Hi Terry, not sure how I find you on Ancestry, there seem to have been several Lowther trees added.
It's my husband who is related to the Lowthers but via George Lowther born 1850 he was the brother of Rueben.
Myself and a.n.other who is also a direct decendant of Rueben have extensive trees on GenesReunited - do you have a sub to that site?
Would like to exchange info, especially on the 'elusive William (Billy) Lowther bc1903
Suey
-
Hi Suey,
thanks for replying so quickly. I've seen several Lowther trees also and must admit some may have gotten confused, what with all the strand of the Lowthers as there some possible errors.
Anyway, My mum and I both have trees but my 'user name' is terrybrown691 on ancestry. Not too sure myself how you can view the tree, but perhaps searching for one of the more unusal names and maybe my tree will pop up in the search results.
Unfortunately I haven't got membership on GenesReunited, I will look at uploading a Gedcom?? to put on GenesReunited so you can see who I have found. Should this also allow me to view yours?
William (Billy) Lowther bc1903 - not sure I've found him yet.
I will let you know if I manage to set up the tree on GenesReunited and I hope I dont bother you too much as I've only been doing research for a short while.
Thanks again for replying.
Terry
-
Hi Terry, will try to make contact via Ancestry - however once you have made 3 posts on Rootschat we can converse via the private message system on here - see the 'help' section at the top of the page and it will tell you how the system works. The links are in blue on the left hand side of the help page :)
Some of the Ancestry trees are very mis-leading, it only takes one mistake and everyone copies that mistake :-\ - my contact on GR and myself have been researching for some years and we think we've got the family pretty well sorted and can quote sources.
Suey
-
Hi Suey
I must admit I have 'ignored' alot of trees on ancestry, there is one particular relative all researchers (for the trees I have looked at) have wrong info as there was never a death cert registered. I hope the details I have are correct, as you say, it can be very easy to add incorrect information which leads you down the wrong path.
I am aiming to Gedcom the Lowther tree I have and put it on GR. I will let you know when I manage to do it.
I will check the help section to see how to converse privately.
Hope to speak to you soon
Terry
-
Hi,
Sorry if I am a little late arriving on this one, but I have been tracing my roots and the 22 Creek Street address popped up here.
I noticed that in the 1891 Census there were two Lowther families living there. I think I may be related to the side headed by Mary Lowther.
If anyone has any details about this side of the family and how the two families at 22 Creek Street were related I'd be interested to hear.
Regards
WADEAL
-
Hi WADEAL and welcome to Rootschat. :)
Mary nee Tuckey is head of household in 1891, she married George Lowther
Hannah nee Dickenson married George's brother Reuben
George and Mary had six children, only four survived -
George married Annie Lyons
Charlotte married Lewis Davis
James married Mary Ann Betteridge
John/Edward died
Ernest married Frances Warren
Mary died we think in her mid 20's
Hannah and Reuben had eleven known children - I am in touch with one of their decendants hence my original post re Muttoneye
Which of the lines is yours? be careful not to post details of living people ;)
When you have made 3 posts on RC I can send you a personal message
Suey
-
I am awaiting a copy of my grandfather's birth certificate to find his mother's name, but I believe that Mary's son George who was married to an Annie Lowther according to the Census records, was my great grandfather.
I know from my late Grandfather's marriage certificate that his father was a George James Lowther and the census records tell me that the only George and Annie Lowther that fit the timeline and location, were the two at Creek Road. I know my grandfather was born in Deptford in 1898 and so I think that I am on the right track.
Are you able to confirm that George (the one married to Annie Lyon's that is) had the middle name James? - that will almost certainly give me the direct link I am looking for and may save me a load of research. I might be able to add a few more Lowther's to your line.
Regards
WADEAL
-
Hi WADEAL - yes George James (Carvalho) Lowther m Annie Elizabeth Lyons at St James Bermondsey on 25th December 1897
Nine known children for this family born between 1899 and 1914
1901 living at 7 Armada Street
1911 still in Armada Street but at No.58
Suey :)
-
Thanks very much,
The Armada Street address ties up perfectly as well. This is my third E-mail here. So I should be able to use the personal mail.
I saw the Cavalho Lowther link and overlooked it - figuring that my lot probably never ventured out of the East End, but then again they did live near the docks. So I shouldn't be surprised if some were seafaring folk.
If you could drop me a personal mail I'd love to know what you have on the rest of the line and hopefully I may be able to fill in a few blanks, as there is a thriving Lowther clan in Nottingham where my Grandfather moved during the Second War.
-
Hi All,
Just absently looking on internet and came across this family tree for the name lowther and realised that the George carvalho Lowther married to Annie Elizabeth Lyons are my great grandparents, my grandmother was Florence Maud Lowther born 1903 in Armada street Deptford. I only know of seven children, my nan had two sisters Annie and Helen (Nelly) and brothers George, Ernie, John, Dickie.Can you tell me who were the other two. My dad has the original marriage lines for George Carvalho Lowther and Annie Elizabeth Lyons although a bit worn ! He also has some birth certificates, I dont know whose off hand. I do remember her mentioning Mutton Eye, who she said she was related to?. She said that he was Dorothy Squires father ??
-
There was a Charlotte Eugeine also know as Lottie who married a Davis.
jennifer
-
George who married Annie Lyons and Henry (Harry) aka Muttoneye were 1st cousins. Their respective fathers were brothers.
George and Annies children as I have them were/are
Annie Charlotte b1900
Mary Ann b1902
Florence Maud 1903
Ernest 1905
Richard 1907 appears in 1911 census aged 3
John 1909 ditto aged 1yr
Katie J 1912 - from a search on freeBMD has the mothers maiden surname Lyons
Reuben 1914 - ditto
Henry (Harry) aka Muttoneye was the son of Reuban Lowther and Hannah Dickenson - he was first married in 1909 to Lydia Cavell, the marriage seems to have been short lived as both are back with respective parents in 1911. From memory Lydia then claims to be single, while Harry has been listed with his parents living at Hughes Fields Deptford and is a 'widower of 2yrs'. He has then been crossed through as he is not actually living with the family. He is in a lodging house in Deptford occupation Street Singer.
Harry then becomes involved with Emily Jane Jacks, they lived happily together until death. This is where the Squires myth is born. Emily was previously married to a Frederick Squires with whom she had 6 children.
My research says she and Harry had 2 daughters born in the early 1920's - both were singers and dancers.
Suey...
-
There was a Charlotte Eugeine also know as Lottie who married a Davis.
jennifer
Correct - Lottie is the sister of George who married Annie Lyons. My husbands grandparents.
Suey
-
Hi Suey
Thanks for your help, I am still puzzled because My nan Florence Maud Lowther definately had a brother George who was older than her (The George Lowther 1898 who moved to Nottingham) and a sister Nelly who was the youngest in the family, there was quite a gap between Nelly (Helen) and the other children because my nan looked after Nelly when their mother Annie died. Nelly got married to Harry Inwood. but I can see no mention of George or Nelly on your list.
Also Three of the family Mary Ann, Katie J and Reuben is it possible they died as children
Thanks for your help
Regards
-
George c.1899 Deptford
Annie c. 1900
Florrie c.1904
Ernest c.1906
Richard c1908
John c1910
plus two after 1911
one dies ? between 1901 & 1911
Jennifer
-
Mary Ann is missing in 1911?
Jennifer
-
jennifer c is right
My apologies, I did miss George 1899 off the list. There are so many Lowthers, large families all using the same christian names it's hard to decide who belongs to whom but all belonging to the two surviving sons of James Lowther Silva Carvallho (to give him his full name ::)) and Mary Ann Pressman.
1911 - The family are at 58 Armada Street, Deptford
George and Annie both say age 35 - married 13 years with 7 children born and 6 living.
George age 12
Annie age 11
Florrie 7
Ernest 7
Richard 3
John 1yr
Yes, Mary Ann is missing, her birth registered in Mar Q 1902 her death in the Oct Q 1902
I see her now!.. HELEN M born June Q 1919 - Reg Dist St Olave. Free BMD has updated since I last looked at the Lowther families.
Also a Kate B M Lowther death registered June Q 1913 aged 2 years
and Reuban Lowther death registered Sept Q 1914
When did their mother die? Poor woman she must have been worn out.
Suey
-
Hi Suey
Been talking to my dad and he showed me George Carvallo Lowthers death certificate. George Carvallo Lowther died 7th Feb 1944 age 68 @ Archway Hospital, his address was 60 Swinton Street, St. Pancras. Although he was originally a Cattle Drover his profession on his death is listed as a Night Watchman.
Annie Lowther (Lyons) died we think in 1947, she would have been 72.
My dad said that she was in Epsom Hospital in Surrey, it was a hospital for the mentally ill. All her children visited her there until her death. My nan always believed that her father (George Carvallo Lowther) had caused her mums madness because he used to beat her badly.
On a happier note thank you for all your help and my daughter coincidentally will be visiting Madeira on holiday in September, 200 years after James Lowther Silva Carvalho was born there.
Regards Maria
-
Maria, here are the details from the marriage cert. of George and Annie..
December 25th 1897 at St James Church Bermondsey, George Carvallo Lowther age 22 a Drover living at 25 Salisbury Street married Annie Elizabeth Lyons also age 22 from 19 Salisbury Street - his father George Lowther a Drover, her father Jeremiah Lyons Labourer
Witnesses Francis Nicholls and Mary Burns.
I've not been able to find any further info on the Lyons side of the family, although my Lyons notes say 2008 so time for another look around :)
The witness Mary Burns was George's cousin.
Thank you for the extra info re deaths. It's no surprise to me when you talk about domestic violence, I've heard it said about other male members of the family. I think they were victims of their time, hard drinking, poor living conditions and violence seemed to go hand in hand, the women of the family did seem to get a pretty raw deal !
How exciting! a trip to Madeira, hope you have a great time and good weather.
Suey
-
Hi, my Granny was Charlotte (Lottie) and her mother was Charlotte elisabeth she had a sister Annie. I think granny was born In old Kent road. She used to mention muttoneye and say she's was related. Also say she was related to Dorothy squires.
I spoke to my granny's brother. They mother was florrie (Charlotte Eugene )
Had 3 children Patrick, Charlotte, Michael. Michael is still alive.
-
Hi, my Granny was Charlotte (Lottie) and her mother was Charlotte elisabeth she had a sister Annie. I think granny was born In old Kent road. She used to mention muttoneye and say she's was related. Also say she was related to Dorothy squires.
I spoke to my granny's brother. They mother was florrie (Charlotte Eugene )
Had 3 children Patrick, Charlotte, Michael. Michael is still alive.
If your grandmother was Charlotte Eugenia born 1898 Deptford then she would have been Henry aka Harry aka Mutoneye's sister.
Sadly no relationship to the Dorothy Squires. Confusion among the family...there are/were a lot of them...we think because Harry's second wife was Emily Squires nee Jacks.
Harry and Emily had four daughters (no Dorothy) but two of the girls sang and danced. Oral history says they worked the cruise ships perhaps they used their mothers surname at some point, Squires sounding better than Lowther maybe.
-
My great gran was florrie (Charlotte) born 1904
-
Hi, my Granny was Charlotte (Lottie) and her mother was Charlotte elisabeth she had a sister Annie. I think granny was born In old Kent road. She used to mention muttoneye and say she's was related. Also say she was related to Dorothy squires.
I spoke to my granny's brother. They mother was florrie (Charlotte Eugene )
Had 3 children Patrick, Charlotte, Michael. Michael is still alive.
Are you going on oral history i.e. what you have learned from your family? Do you recognise the surname Mahoney?
When you have made three posts I can send you personal messages....The Lowthers are many and complicated :D
-
Yes Mahoney is my granny's brothers surname. Micheal he is still alive.
My granny was Lottie and had a brother Patrick too but was maccallister.
-
Hi Terry, not sure how I find you on Ancestry, there seem to have been several Lowther trees added.
It's my husband who is related to the Lowthers but via George Lowther born 1850 he was the brother of Rueben.
Myself and a.n.other who is also a direct decendant of Rueben have extensive trees on GenesReunited - do you have a sub to that site?
Would like to exchange info, especially on the 'elusive William (Billy) Lowther bc1903
Suey
Hello
I am Nicola, and William lowther is my great grandfather
He was married to Helena (Maud)
Rowland
They had 7 children
4 boys 3 girls
-
Hi,
Sorry if I am a little late arriving on this one, but I have been tracing my roots and the 22 Creek Street address popped up here.
I noticed that in the 1891 Census there were two Lowther families living there. I think I may be related to the side headed by Mary Lowther.
If anyone has any details about this side of the family and how the two families at 22 Creek Street were related I'd be interested to hear.
Regards
WADEAL
Hello I am Nicola bills great granddaughter
Mutton eyes brother William (Bill) lived at 126 creek road when he married Helena Rowland (Maud)
The lowthers at 22 were over the bridge on depford side.
-
Hello
i remember Muttoneye he used to play his harmonium outside the Odeon cinema Mile End . and outside west end cinema's but i am sorry i do not know any of his history just remember him he was a character always wore a bowler hat
regards
Marie.
Hello
I am Nicola my great grandfather was William lowther
Mutton eyes brother. My dad A P remembers the harmonium being in the cellar at 126 creek road.
-
Hi
I believe I might be the Great Nephew?? of Henry Lowther. me - my mother - William J Lowther - George Lowther, brother of Henry Lowther - Reuben Lowther Carvahlo. I dont have direct contact with any Lowthers (apart from my mother!), as my grandparents separated when I was 7-ish, and no one kept in touch with that side of the family.
I am researching the Lowther family, with my mother, on ancestry.co.uk and found Henry accidently on Rootschat.
If anyone has any information, or can point me in the right direction, regarding the Lowther family I would love to hear about it, and to confirm I have the correct Henry. I would be happy to share what I have found too.
Terry :)
Hello
I am the Great granddaughter of William John lowther.
He married Helena Rowland ( Maud)
They had 7 children and lived at creek road before moving to haddo house in Greenwich
-
Hi Muttoneye was my great grand mother’s brother. My great gran was Charlotte lowther (lottie or florrie)
One of her sons are still alive.
-
A bit late to this thread, but only just came across it. My Nan and her sisters (family name Thornton) who lived in Turpin Lane, Greenwich Market, often talked of Muttoneye - and a host of other characters in Greenwich with nicknames! Muttoneye would come along and play outside the Coach & Horses pub apparently.