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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 12 February 08 06:22 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone tell me the 'perceived' correct way of naming parishes in what is now London?
E.g. St Pancras
I have it as 'St Pancras, London, Middlesex', but have been told that this is incorrect.
I have difficulties in calling it just London, as the families were shown as living in Middlesex in census etc. I have difficulty in calling it just Middlesex, as it is clearly in London!
What does anyone else think?
One option would be to go back through every London place name in my tree, find out when my ancestors lived there, and rename it accordingly, as per boundary changes at that date.
Apart from being rather laborious, this could find them born in one county, married or died in another county.
I also have St Saviour Southwark in London, but have been told it has never been in London, should be in Surrey
Is there an 'accepted' way of naming places?
I don't want to modernise my place names completely.
Margaret
???
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I use the name current at the time. So I have them living in St Pancras, Middx, in the 1800s, and St Pancras, London, in the 20th century.
meles
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London is a bit of a nightmare, so you are right to be confused. London was originally just the City, ie the 'Square Mile', but much of the area we now regard as London was commonly called that, although it was technically still in Middlesex or Surrey. When th London County Council was set up in the late 19th Century it included these areas, including St Pancras and Southwark.
I agree with Meles that you should use the term that applied at the time, if you know what that was.
Mean_genie
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Thank you both for that.
I guess it's 'go through all London names' day coming up soon.
:'(
Margaret
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Hi
I think before the LCC was set up in 1889, London included the whole conurbation, not just the Square Mile city. I think it was simply London in Middlesex. It is like Liverpool was all in Lancashire once, well it is the same as London in Middlesex. A few of my rellies gave their birthplaces as "London, Middlesex" in the censuses.
If you look at old maps of the whole of London, it says "London" and even though it was technically in Middlesex and Surrey, London existed as a city in its own right eg Islington in London, in Middlesex.
It is confusing but I like to see the whole of London pre 1889 as London.
If the Square Mile was just considered proper London before 1889, then my ancestors born in Soho, Spitalfields and Southwark ( which are 3 central London parishes) werent proper Londoners but technically Middlesexians.
Ben
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Strictly speaking they were (except the ones in Southwark, which was in Surrey :)), which flies in the face of common sense, because if you could ask your ancestors, they would say they were Londoners, and I would agree with them. Interestingly, the earlier indexes of the Principal Probate Registry show many addresses as Middlesex, when almost every other source treats them as London. The predecessor of the LCC was the Metropolitan Board of Works, founded in 1855, and the Metropolitan Police is even older, but official bodies with London in their title are fewer and later than you might think.
I think the main thing is to be aware that it is complicated, and not worry about the finer points unless you are particularly interested in them (they fascinate me!). It matters when you are trying to find particular records, and you need to know that they might be classified as London, Middlesex, Surrey or whatever, depending on the place, the time and the type of record.
But to go back to Margaret's original question that started this thread, I think the important thing is clarity, and if you describe St Pancras as London when it should be Middlesex, and vice versa, the sky isn't going to fall in, because it is still the same place, and won't be confused with anywhere else. I would definitely avoid London, Middlesex though because it's unnecessary, and can be innaccurate too, because the City of London has never actually been part of Middlesex. Oh dear, here we go again...
I'm glad I have no London ancestry!
Mean_genie
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Strictly with the creation of the London Boroughs in 1965 Middlesex ceased to exist and is now totally historic, although many institutions still recognisee it in their names. Today we regard everything inside the M25 motorway as being London although it does actually define the boundary of the London Boroughs.
Those who live there are totally confused and so it is not surprising that people on the other side of the world are totally confused.
My solutin is to totally ignore Middlesex where ever possible and just refer to places by their original local names.
David
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Those who live there are totally confused and so it is not surprising that people on the other side of the world are totally confused.
My thoughts exactly, David! I have given a talk a couple of times to American genealogists that I called 'What is Britain?', just covering the basics, really, and so much of it was news to most of them (and these were fairly smart people), that I thought I'd better not even start on the London thing, because that would blow their minds completely :o
Mean_genie
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If you look here you will get some explanantion http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/LND/parishes.html
I would put whatever it says on the records but remember if someone says they were born in London it usually means the City of London. Otherwise they usually give the area of birth. I.e St Pancras, Middlesex
Sylviaann
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Help me!!
London, Middlesex or Surrey?!
All in 19th century, mostly before 1889
Southwark - Surrey (even though it's near the middle of London)
St Pancras - Middlesex (even though it's nearer to the middle of London)
Islington - ?
Wandsworth - ?
Regent Square - ?
St Giles - ?
St Martins - ?
Westminster - ?
Lambeth - ?
Covent Garden - ?
Bethnal Green - ?
Bloomsbury - ?
Camberwell - ?
Marylebone - ?
etc etc etc
Before anyone answers, look at the Rootschat heading for London!
Most of them in census give their place of birth as London, earlier censuses sometimes give Middlesex or Surrey.
I really don't know what to do, but I will definitely have to get rid of either London or Middlesex/Surrey, as yet undecided as to which one to drop!!
Margaret
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Don't lose any sleep over it!
Either option will be fine, Middlesex or London, Surrey or London - just so long as you don't mix up Middlesex and Surrey, which is always wrong ;D. None of the places on your list would cause a problem. You'd have to be careful with places that occur on both sides of the river, but there aren't too many of those - St George is the main one (2 north, 1 south).
London is particularly troublesome, but you get the same sort or problem in other places too, and there is at least one parish that is not only split between two counties, but two countries!
Mean_genie
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Margaret
This site tells you which were in Middlesex http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~bpefisk/fh/Middx/index.html
Wandsworth, Lambeth and Camberwell were in Surrey. It is handy to know whether it was south of the Thames or not
If you look at the London resources thread at the top of the London site you will find a map reference for parishes. Found the above site under Middlesex resources. I expect there will be one on the Surrey thread too.
Why don't you put i.e. Bethnal Green, Middlesex now London
Not worth worrying about.
Sylviaann
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Don't forget Monmouthshire as it was that switches between England and Wales every hundred years I think.
Berwick on Tweed which keeps moving backwards and forwards between England and Scotland and for which there is a current campaign to move it back to Scotland because the Scottish parliament provides free University education etc.
Returning to London, no one mentioned the bits of Hertfordshire and Essex which are now part of London
David
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Or Kent!
Mean_genie
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''Either option will be fine, Middlesex or London, Surrey or London - just so long as you don't mix up Middlesex and Surrey, which is always wrong.''
I could easily mix up London and Surrey
''This site tells you which were in Middlesex http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~bpefisk/fh/Middx/index.html''
This looks like the way to go, I may 'blanket' change all my London addresses as per this page, there aren't many London addresses since turn of 20th century in my tree.
The odd error may creep in, but perhaps better than the way things are presented at present.
Thanks everyone for your advice and help.
Margaret
:)
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Hello
I am new to this site and this is my first post! Bizarrely I came straight to this chat thread by typing "births middlesex 1780" into google!!! Having then registered myself I thought I would just say hi & thanks for leading me to this site.
I was born in Middx before 1965, and can sympathise with your confusion. All your areas are now in London administratively, but were not at the time of course. I thought the link to rootsweb was useful. I also find that on the census search on ancestry.co.uk site, clicking on the county at the bottom of the search page after having selected a census year, brings up a list of parishes, and that whilst London appears in censuses from 1871, it is not an option for censuses before that & have found my ancestors in both counties even though they hadn't moved!
Cheers
Middx :)
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Greetings, Mddx,
You will find this a very friendly site, lots of very helpful people.
Whether looking for something specific about your family, or more general such as this topic, someone will answer you if they have the information, or guide you to sources for that information yourself.
Long live Rootschatters (Have you all told someone else about the site today?!) ;D
''I also find that on the census search, clicking on the county at the bottom of the search page after having selected a census year, brings up a list of parishes, and that whilst London appears in censuses from 1871, it is not an option for censuses before that & have found my ancestors in both counties even though they hadn't moved!''
Your point about census entries is good, but since the boundary changes didn't come in until 1889, I don't think that 1871 and 1881 census counties are correct on that site.
The actual images usually make no mention of London or any other county on the page as a whole, or in the description of the enumeration district.
One 'London' borough at random - Chelsea
1871
Individual entries - Chelsea, Middlesex; Lambeth, Surrey; etc
1881
Individual entries - Chelsea, Middlesex; Lambeth, Surrey; also quite a few ''London, Middlesex''!!
1891 census - administrative council now clearly at top of page, London
Individual entries - London, Chelsea; London, Lambeth
However, if you look at entries before 1871, as you say, the demarcation is definitely there. Chelsea is listed under Middlesex and Lambeth listed under Surrey.
Plenty of suggestions from all of you, all I need is a spare hour or two to go through everything!!
Margaret
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I think London outside Sq Mile before 1889 was always London eg (Islington, Deptford, Soho) because as the LCC was created forming the County Of London, why would they have done that if London wasnt considered London outside the Square Mile. They must have seen it as London for them to create a new County Of London.
My great gran was born the same year the new County Of London was created. She was an Islingtonian ad her Sep 1889 birth cert says "County Of London".
Ben