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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: TunjiLees on Monday 11 February 08 14:31 GMT (UK)
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What if I only know an ancestor's name and that he was born in Ireland? Where would I start looking from that? (b. Abt 1781, Ireland)
I'm told it is an uncommon name for Ireland, Oliver (Lees), so there should be very few of them.
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As I said a few days ago on your post Lees Family, from Ireland to Edinburgh?:
Now, as to tracing the family back to Ireland- the two important bits of information need to start any Irish family research is what religion the family were (to locate church records) and where they lived (parish if not actual townland not just a county or 'Ireland').
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As I said a few days ago on your post Lees Family, from Ireland to Edinburgh?:
Now, as to tracing the family back to Ireland- the two important bits of information need to start any Irish family research is what religion the family were (to locate church records) and where they lived (parish if not actual townland not just a county or 'Ireland').
As I said said before, I don't have that information.
And I'm not simply going to give up searching because I don't have it!
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Hello TunjiLees,
Lees is not a common Irish name. At the time of Griffith's Valuations (1848 - 1864) there were eighteen families with the name in Co. Derry and nine in Co. Dublin plus another two in Dublin city... there were four in Belfast and three each in Antrim and Tyrone. There were another seven families in the country.
Some of the sources below may assist you.
Nineteenth Century
Many of the links shown below are on John Hayes Fáilte Romhat.com website. (http://www.failteromhat.com)
Census Records (http://www.proni.gov.uk/records/census19.htm)
First Valuation
Griffith's Valuation 1848-64 (http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths.php)
Householders Index
Land Owners in Ireland 1876 (http://www.failteromhat.com/lo1876.php)
Pigot & Co's Provincial Directory of Ireland 1824 (http://www.failteromhat.com/pigot.htm)
Selected Irish Marriages 1600 - 1900 (http://www.failteromhat.com/marriage.php)
Slater's Commercial Directory of Ireland 1846 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater.htm)
Street Directories
Surnames from 1841-1851 census
Tithe Applotment Books
The U. H. F''s series of over thirty volumes of R. S. J. Clarke's Gravestone Inscriptions
may contain some details of your ancestors. It might be worth while to have a look at William Roulston's book titled "Researching Scots-Irish Ancestors the essential genealogical guide to early modern Ulster, 1600-1800" as it also covers that period. The appendices to Mr Roulston's book include a full listing of pre-1800 church records for Ulster; a detailed description of nearly 250 collections of seventeenth- and eighteenth-century estate papers; and a summary breakdown of the sources available from this period for each parish in Ulster.
Eighteenth Century Sources. (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~irishancestors/Add18.html)
Books of Survey and Distributions c. 1700
Catholic Qualification Rolls 1778 - 1793
Convert Rolls 1704-1839
Electors Rolls 1761
Estate Records and Marriage Licence Bonds
Flax Growers List 1796
Freeholders entitled to vote 1770
Grand Jurors and Books of Presentiments
Militia Lists 1761
Oath of Allegiance 1775
Poll Books 1752
Proprietors of land circa 1700 list
Protestant Householders 1740 list.
Register of Freeholders 1758
Return of Householders 1766
State prisoners 1798
Voters Lists 1727-1793
Thanks to a poster on www.buncrana.com here is the 1740 database of Irish Protestant Householders. Irish records appear in the most peculiar places. The 1740 Ireland Protestant Housekeepers in Counties Antrim, Derry, Donegal and Londonderry database (http://www.newenglandancestors.org/research/database/housekeepers/default.asp) is based on an original census now in the possession of the Presbyterian Historical Society of Ireland in Belfast. The work was commissioned by a member of the New England Historic Genealogical Society (NEHGS) at the beginning of the twentieth century and transcribed from the original by J.W. Kernohan, Secretary of the Presbyterian Historical Society of Ireland.
It looks as though you may have to join the NEHGS if you wish to look at the Housekeepers list.
Seventeenth Century Sources. (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~irishancestors/Add17.html)
Athlone Herald 1690
Books of Survey and Distribution 1641
Calender of Patent Rolls of Charles 1
Calender of Irish Patent Rolls of James 1
Census of Ireland 1659
Cess Tax Accounts (Various dates)
Civil Survey of Ireland 1654
Down Survey 1654
Hearth Money Rolls 1665
Inquisitions Post Mortems (http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/guide/ipm.shtml)
King James II's Irish Army List 1689
List of Outlaws 1641-47
List of Undertakers 1612 - 13
Muster Roll 1630
Muster Roll 1642
Outlawry Lists 1691
Subsidy Roll 1634
Subsidy Roll 1669
Ulster Plantation 1609
Christopher
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Thank you for your recommendations Christopher.
The NEHGS seems like an very interesting project, however I can't spend that much in order to search for a mere couple of ancestors that I may not even find.
Unfortunately, the census records website you linked is down, do you know if it was the correct one?
The provincial directory is interesting, though much too vast to go through blindly. The Ireland Times Ancestry website seems interesting also, unfortunately it charges 7 euro (!?) just to find out out the Lees' in one county!
As for the other records you linked, I can either find nothing of value or the data is of the wrong period.
The 19th century sources are too recent and 17th century ones too old, and I can gather nothing on the PRONI Freeholder listings.
I'm beginning to think the census entry from which I learned my ancestor came from Ireland was wrong... :(
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Hello there
I am having a similar problem. Most of my ancestors are from Liverpool but I have Irish ancestors on both sides. I am currently struggling to find details of my great grandfather John Begley (or Bagley). I can't find his birth or his death records (though I know he died in St Helens, Lancs). I do have his marriage certificate for 1874 which says his father is Thomas Bagley, deceased. My father remembers his grandfather very well, and said he was definitely Irish. I have found the family on the 1891 and 1901 census in St Helens. On the 1901 census, next door to them lived one of John Begley's children with an Ann Begley, grandmother, 66yrs, widow, born Ireland; I think this is Thomas's wife. But the question is, how on earth do I find out which part of Ireland they are from? I am guessing that both Ann and Thomas Begley were born around 1835. John was born in 1856, I thought in St Helens but maybe also Ireland.
Without any Irish census records I feel completely lost. I don't think they could have been land owners, or gentry or any kind, so I suppose they won't be on any available Irish records
Someone please help and advise!!!!
Polly
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The NEHGS seems like an very interesting project, however I can't spend that much in order to search for a mere couple of ancestors that I may not even find.
There may be people on this board who subscribe to that site, so try asking for a look-up on the appropriate board (whether Ireland or Emigrant-related) and you might get lucky.
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Thanks very much for this idea; not sure how a project on New England... would be helpful though. I find all this very confusing!!!
Polly
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Hello Polly,
What denomination were Ann and Thomas Begley? Were they members of the Catholic faith, the Established Church (Anglicans or Church of Ireland), Methodists or possibly Presbyterians?
You'll have to rely on Church records as civil registration in Ireland was not introduced until 1864. Non Catholic marriages were registered from 1845 onwards. When registration for BDMS started in 1864 some people didn't bother with the registration for a few years after that date. Keep your fingers crossed that church records still exist.
A county, parish or townland might help to find more information about him.
You may have to pay a visit, or ask someone to visit on your behalf, to the Presbyterian Historical Society of Ireland's Belfast Library or to the the Public Records Office in Dublin
to see the 1740 census.
Christopher
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Hello Christopher
Thanks for the help. I am sure they were Catholic; all the recent Begleys in my family are Catholic.
I know a lot of Begleys came from Derry, and also Kerry; but I really have no idea at all what county they came from. So if I went to Ireland where on earth would I go? Perhaps a starting point would be Belfast. 1740 census would be too early though. I think Thomas and his wife (possibly Ann) were born around 1835.
Do you know why the records in Ireland are not so accessible as the ones in England? I know about the fire which destroyed a lot of the records but you'd think the ones that remained would be more easily accessible.
Anyway, I'll keep ploughing on.
Thanks a lot, Polly
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It was the Irish government who pulped a great many of the census records during WW1. It was the biggest mistake they ever made.
You could try typing into Google 1851 census Co. Antrim and you will see that these Irish census were the most comprehensive you will ever see. People had to give the date of marriage and if anybody is missing from the 1841 census details have to be given of their whereabouts, If a person had died the cause of death had to be give.
Just think what all this would have meanst for us with Irish forebears. It is like losing the pot at the end of the rainbow.
Gatacre
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It was the Irish government who pulped a great many of the census records during WW1. It was the biggest mistake they ever made.
You could try typing into Google 1851 census Co. Antrim and you will see that these Irish census were the most comprehensive you will ever see. People had to give the date of marriage and if anybody is missing from the 1841 census details have to be given of their whereabouts, If a person had died the cause of death had to be give.
Just think what all this would have meanst for us with Irish forebears. It is like losing the pot at the end of the rainbow.
Gatacre
Hi Gatacre,
That was actually another British government boob boob as Ireland was still a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland 8)
The Irish government didn't come into being until 1922.
Christopher
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You are quite right, Christopher.
Gatacre
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Thanks very much for this idea; not sure how a project on New England... would be helpful though. I find all this very confusing!!!
Polly
Hi Polly,
New England or wherever ... if they have Irish records, including those for "Protestant Housekeepers in Counties Antrim, Derry, Donegal, and Londonderry, Ireland — 1740", online so that people can have a look at them and don't have to pay subscription charges I'm not going to do any complaining.
Christopher
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From the "Protestant Housekeepers in Counties Antrim, Derry, Donegal, and Londonderry, Ireland 1740" at NEHGS... I did a soundex search on Begley, and then Lees. I've included the description of the holding at the bottom.
First Name Last Name Parish Barony County Number
Mrs Beckly London Derry Tyrkeering Londonderry 1421 more
James Begly Tamlaght O Creely LaughinShillin Londonderry 1178 more
Willm Begly Tamlaght O Creely LaughinShillin Londonderry 1179 more
Randle Leas BallyKelly Kenoght Londonderry 3118
David Lees Magherafelt LaughinShillin Londonderry 21 more
Edwd Lees Magharafelt LaughinShillin Londonderry 265 more
James Lees Dunean Toome Antrim 5213 more
John Lees Maghara LaughinShillin Londonderry 2395 more
John Lees Magharafelt LaughinShillin Londonderry 264 more
Robt Lees Magharafelt LaughinShillin Londonderry 317 more
Robt Lees Termoneny LaughinShillin Londonderry 703 more
Thos Lees Magharafelt LaughinShillin Londonderry 364 more
Widw Lees Dunean Toome Antrim 5111 more
Widw Lees Dunean Toome Antrim 5116 more
Peter Leese Billy Dunluce Andrim 3097
Protestant Housekeepers in Counties Antrim, Derry, Donegal, and Londonderry, Ireland 1740
The 1740 Ireland Protestant Housekeepers database is based on an original census now in the possession of the Presbyterian Historical Society of Ireland in Belfast. The work was commissioned by a member of NEHGS at the beginning of the twentieth century and transcribed from the original by J.W. Kernohan, Secretary of the Presbyterian Historical Society of Ireland. The only other known transcription is a typescript in the Public Records Office in Dublin. The counties of Antrim, Derry, Donegal, and Londonderry were transcribed as part of this project. The original also contains information from the counties of Armagh and Down, which are not included here. This census was conducted by the Church of Ireland, but contains information on individuals in all Protestant denominations, as well as a number of Roman Catholic families. Only the name of the head of household is given — no additional information was recorded.
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Tunjilees.... I can completely understand your frustration and that generally of searching their Irish ancestors.
I'm newish to this too and I only had a couple of names initially, of my g.g. granny living in Dumfries, Scotland:
Julia Lawler / Lollar b. abt 1844 'Ireland'
on her marriage certificate I found her parents were:
Catherine Bonn/Burns/Byrne (always take into account how a heavy Irish accent can be transcripted...)
Michael Lawler/Lollar (agricultural labourer/ deceased by 1874)
Anyway that was all I had until I was kindly advised (on here) to search the areas close by where Julia was living for other members of her family. I managed to find her mother Catherine and a sister also called Catherine in 1881 and it gave their approximate birth dates and birth places of Carlow and Kildare respectively :) I've guessed they are protestant (family thing) but my mind is open to other possibilities.
Basically I have found a few more snippets from IGI but havent really got further (lawler seems a bit common).
So what I'm advising is patience and you will start chipping away slowly. But don't expect the fast online finds you get with Scots records. :(
Tx
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Tunjilees,
I 'm living in Northen Ireland and know of a family of Lees in Magherafelt, Co.Londonderry.
Can you tell me what County your Lees are from?
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I also know Lees family in Magherafelt area but unless Tunjilees has since the last postings discovered where in Ireland the family did come from there's little point in finding if there's any connection.
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Hi aghaddowey,
I'm your neighbor, I'm only a few miles down the road from you toward Magherafelt. How's things? ;)
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Thank you so much for all your help and kindness, especially searching for my Begley ancestors. Not the ones I am looking for, but they could have been!!
I will keep plugging away; not been able to do any research for a long time, but back on to it now.
If only I'd asked my dad more questions before he died; there is no-one left in the Begley side now. Let this be a lesson to all you young ones out there - talk to your relatives!
Thanks once again, Polly
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Tunjilees.... I can completely understand your frustration and that generally of searching their Irish ancestors.
I'm newish to this too and I only had a couple of names initially, of my g.g. granny living in Dumfries, Scotland:
Julia Lawler / Lollar b. abt 1844 'Ireland'
on her marriage certificate I found her parents were:
Catherine Bonn/Burns/Byrne (always take into account how a heavy Irish accent can be transcripted...)
Michael Lawler/Lollar (agricultural labourer/ deceased by 1874)
Anyway that was all I had until I was kindly advised (on here) to search the areas close by where Julia was living for other members of her family. I managed to find her mother Catherine and a sister also called Catherine in 1881 and it gave their approximate birth dates and birth places of Carlow and Kildare respectively :) I've guessed they are protestant (family thing) but my mind is open to other possibilities.
Basically I have found a few more snippets from IGI but havent really got further (lawler seems a bit common).
So what I'm advising is patience and you will start chipping away slowly. But don't expect the fast online finds you get with Scots records. :(
Tx
Hi there...
In Ireland have you tried surname spelling Lawlor/Lalor....I have Lawlor rellies from Belfast....most are Catholic, also a large group of Lawlor/Lalors in County Laois, which is right next door to County Carlow. Hope this helps....
All The Best
Wendy
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In Ireland have you tried surname spelling Lawlor/Lalor....I have Lawlor rellies from Belfast....most are Catholic, also a large group of Lawlor/Lalors in County Laois, which is right next door to County Carlow. Hope this helps....
All The Best
Wendy
Thanks Wendy, I have tried Lawlor, but not Lalor... I'm off to try it now.
I am now convinced this side of the family is catholic, so this is very helpful!
Thank you!
Tx
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If only I'd asked my dad more questions before he died; there is no-one left in the Begley side now. Let this be a lesson to all you young ones out there - talk to your relatives!
AND;
Let this be a lesson to all you older ones out there too.....don't let your "secrets" be buried with you....leave something behind of your history for your children!!!!!! It is their history too and why should you deprive them of this, after all they had no part in that history!!
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I think i'm in the same boat as TunjiLees. My G.G.Great Grandfather Thomas Prior is detailed throughout 1851 to death in 1875 in Edinburgh, but I cant get any further back as he was born in Ireland (no county details) and his parents were Patrick Prior crofter and Rose nee McLaughlin. I've no idea where in Ireland, but it would have been about 1812 or so that Thomas was born. I guess Crofters were too poor to be notable enough to be documented.
:(
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Oh, just out of interest TunjiLees. Were your Irish ancestors located in Cowgate Edinburgh? Thats where mine went, and from what i can gather Cowgate was a multitude of slums full of Irish! Annoyingly i cant find any history regarding what life was like for these slum occupants in the mid 1800s. Plenty of history available for Cowgate, but nothing on what these people had to live with.
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Hi Solly,
Yes, those ancestors of mine were located in the Cowgate/Grassmarket area.
See the attached extract from "day and night in the wynds of edinburgh" by George Bell. I copied this from the book at the Edinburgh library. I find it an extremely informative description of the conditions in which our ancestors would have lived.
I would also read chapters the chapters 31-32 of the book linked hereunder regarding the Cowgate, if you haven't already. Some interesting history and drawings of contemporary buildings.
http://www.oldandnewedinburgh.co.uk/volume4/
I find images such as http://www.oldandnewedinburgh.co.uk/volume4/page60/pictures/568/zoom
fascinating as they really help you imagine the area and conditions in which our ancestors lived.
Hope this helps
-Tunji Lees
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Thats fantastic, I'd seen one or two of those images, but the text you found was excellent. Just the sort of thing I'd been looking for. Its disturbing to think that my ancestors had to live like that, but i'm hoping my Thomas was one of the ones refered to as working! He was noted in the Census as working, a Journeyman Shoemaker, and i believe journeyman meant time served as an apprentice and fully qualified. Such a harsh life though, Cowgate.
Thanks for posting these up for me, you're right, very informative!
Solly