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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: sft456 on Monday 11 February 08 10:55 GMT (UK)
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My Mother's paternal Grandfather, William Chidgey Newick (b Bristol 1851 - 1903) married Lois Rebecca Duckworth (b Leicester 1872 - ?) sometime in the 1890's.
This was his second marriage - his first wife Jane (surname unknown, b Bristol 1851 - ?) died also in the 1890's)
We have found a death record for a Lois Rebecca Newick of 1898 – is this her?
The dilemma is that William and somebody had 4 children - Ivy Blanche L 1892 - 1994) William Christmas (1893 - ?) Louis Wilfred Gladstone (1895 - 1886) and Frederick Victor Harcourt (? – 1863 - my Grandfather)
Are these 4 children from the union of the first or second marriage or a bit of both.?
As a bit of a twist before dying Ivy told her Niece, Kathlean Dixey (still living) that she had a bit of a secret, but unfortunately never divulged it!!
Can anyone help please. Also can anyone fill in the missing dates - BMD and surname of Jane
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Hi sft,
Marriage Dec 1872 Bristol
William Chidgey Newick to possibly Jane Speed 6a 7
:)
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Death?
Jane Newick December 1898 Leicester Vol 7a Page 153 age 48
Cant see one for Lois in 1898, did you mean this one? :-\
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Strange enough, I can see William and Jane in 1891 without any children - would they have started making kids at 40+? :-\
I can't see a marriage for Lois Rebecca Duckworth :-\ Bit mysterious!
If they belonged to me, I'd get hold of one of the children's birth certs! :P
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Wait! Have you found the kids in 1901? They seem to be called Milne, with mum Lois Rebecca well alive! RG13/2976 7 6 ???
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I was just going to post that one Tanya, whats going on?? :-\
Is that the secret maybe??
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She's Lois R Duckworth in 1881 RG11/3159 Folio 97 page 27 with parents Henry and Eliza + siblings
and in 1891 with parents RG12/2524 Folio 147 page 41
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Maybe he never married Lois
Is he the William Newick, widower, aged "45", traveller for printer's firm b Bristol who is a lodger in Norwich in 1901?
RG13/1840 folio 46 p42
I know this would understate his age, but his age was also understated at death (Dec 1904 West Ham aged 49)
Anna
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She's Lois R Duckworth in 1881 RG11/3159 Folio 97 page 27 with parents Henry and Eliza + siblings
...and still with parents in 1891: RG12/2524 folio 147 p41
Anna
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Did she ever marry a Mr Milne either?? Cant' find a marriage :-\
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I see Ivy's birth as Newick, but struggling to find the rest of the children:
Ivy Blanche L Newick Sep 1892 Leicester 8a 242
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Same here! ???
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Very mysterious
Louis' birthdate is given as 3 July 1895 on his death entry:
Louis Wilfred G Newick aged 90, Feb 1986 Leicester Central 6 2406
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Frederick Victor Harcourt (? – 1863 - my Grandfather)
Presumably this is a typo for 1963 - but I don't see his death in 1963 or 1964 on the full listings at findmypast ???
Did he die overseas?
Anna
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Okay thanks for all your replies
These are the facts as far as we can tell:
1 Wlliam Chidgey Newick (b 1851 - 1903/4) married (1) 12/1872 Jane ? (1851 - ) both born in Bristol
2 William married (2) Lois Rebecca Duckworth (b Leicester 1872 - 1943?) in Leicester
3 children born Newick with the dates as previously shown (2 are recorded, William and Frederick were given to me by their Niece Kathleen - Fred may have died in 1962 but certainly in Harpenden, Herts where he and his wife lived
4 I have seen a William/Lois marriage record dated 1892 on Ancestry somewhere but can't remember where
What we want to know is:
1 When did Jane die?
2 When did Lois marry William?
3 Who is the mother of the 4 children?
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Well, Jane seems to die in 1898 and none of us seem to have found the 1892 marriage you mention ???
Who bore the 4 children?
Only the birth certs will tell you ... :-\
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Fred may have died in 1962 but certainly in Harpenden, Herts where he and his wife lived
OK - here's his death
Sep 1962
NEWICK Frederick V.H. 65 St Albans 4b 149
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Hiya guys
Welcome to Rootschat sft456
Logically as Jane didnt die till 1898 I'd say she was their mother but as Tati pointed out its a bit late to be having kids at 40+
Heres my bent on it
Lois was married/lived with to someone called Milne and the children are hers from her first marriage/relationship
She then married/lived with William Newick and he brought the children up until his death
Where did the information come from about William being Fredericks father stf345?
Willow x
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But one child at least, Ivy Blanche, was registered with the Newick surname :-\ Could Wiliam have been married to Jane, but also having a dalliance with Lois, who was either widowed/deserted by a Mr Milne?? :-\
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Is this Lois's remarriage?
Lois R Newick March 1918 Leicester Vol 7a Page 474
Groom - Charles Walker
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But one child at least, Ivy Blanche, was registered with the Newick surname :-\ Could Wiliam have been married to Jane, but also having a dalliance with Lois, who was either widowed/deserted by a Mr Milne?? :-\
Seems to be pointing that way. The problem is I cant find any of the other childrens births registered under ANY surname. Thank goodness they have several names
Wellspotted CatOne
Willow x
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The point is that a lot is happening in a short space of time:
1 In 1891 William and Jane are recorded as a 40 year old working couple
2 In 1892 Ivy Blanche L Newick is born
3 In 1893 William Christmas Newick is born
4 In 1895 Louis Wilfred Newick is born
5 In 1897 Frederick Victor Newick is born
6 In 1898 Jane dies
7 In 1903 William dies
Somewhere amongst these goings on Lois R Duckworth is linked with William (she marries again in 1918), though I have never seen a 1901 Census record of them all as a family
As far as the family is concerned, these children and their descendants have never been anything else but Newicks. I am not aware of anyone called Milne.
The other problem is that William is almost twice the age of Lois. She couldn't have been married before marrying him (she was only 20 in 1892). Neither can she have been dallying with him behind Jane's back (it's not possible to have 4 children in this way!)
My guess is that they are Jane's children and that Lois took them on after her death - but then why would a young girl get involved with a much older man? Pehaps she never actually married him (why no record can be found). Perhaps She was taken on as a full time live in nanny. Of course after his death she had to bring them up on her own (not expecting this to have happened)
Finally in Louis Wilfred's (second son) memoirs, he constantly refers to his mother as Lois. Jane is never mentioned - perhaps no one ever told them! He also mentions his father residin in Norwich tempoarily on business (Lois is presumably at home with the ids). He dies in 1903 of exhaustion through his job
We are still guessing to a large extent. Surely the children's birth Certificates should give the parents names. Is this info not available on-line?
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Sft - you need to order Ivy's birth cert to find out.
The info isn't available online - you need to order the cert from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ :)
The family are definitely down as Milne in 1901, and the children are recorded as being Lois' (William isn't living with the family):
1901
RG13/2976 7 6
Loughborough, Leicestershire
109 Storer Rd
Lois Rebecca Milne, head, mar, 28, b. Leicestershire Leicester
Ivy Blanche do., dau, 9, b. b. Belgrave
William Christmas Louis do., son, 8, b. Loughborough
Louis Welfred Gladstone do., son, 6, b. do.
Frederick Victor Harcourt do. son, 3, b. do.
Did you find Louis' registration in the name Newick?
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Hiya Sft456
It is possible the enumerator put down Milne instead of Newick and that is what has caused this confusion
As Tati says it may be a case of ordering the certificate to clear this up. It might be worth putting a post on the Leicestershire board with a link to this post to see if someone can look in the parish records for the marriage and childrens baptisms
Willow x
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Hello Tati
I have never seen this 1901 Census record (no mention of this on Ancestry). None of us have ever heard the name Milne. These children, their decendents and Lois have always been known as Newick. In fact Lois marriage record of 1918 to Charles Walker has her down as Newick, also Ivy's birth and Louis's death record.......so just who is this Milne
However this still doesn't solve this riddle (see my length diatribe above) in fact the plot thickens >:(
During the 1901 Census taking William is lodging temporarily in Norwich as a commercial traveller for a Nottingham printing firm
Incidently thanks for this record. Do you have date of birth details for the children?
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I have never seen this 1901 Census record (no mention of this on Ancestry).
The 1901 census record in the name Milne is indeed on Ancestry. It quite plainly gives the surname for Lois Rebecca as Milne. The children are dittoed as Milne. Their given names so perfectly match the family you listed in your first post that it must be them.
Why Lois gave the surname as Milne is obviously still a mystery - but I find it hard to think that it could be a mistranscription (from household schedules) or misenumeration of Newick. The names are just too different for this to be realistic. For whatever reason, I think we must conclude that Lois gave the name Milne or something looking/sounding like Milne for the purposes of the census in 1901.
I also find it hard to subscribe to the theory that the four children were all Jane's and then taken on by Lois. Jane was childless aged 30 in 1881 (after over 8 years of marriage) and aged 40 in 1891 (after over 18 years of marriage). She does not seem to have lost children in infancy, at least not children whose births or deaths were registered. There are no BMD records at all, currently on FreeBMD, for the surname Newick in Leicester at any time before the birth of Ivy Blanche in 1892 (William and Jane were in Leicester in both 1881 and 1891).
Given that background I do think it would be virtually miraculous if Jane gave birth to all of the following: Ivy at about age 42, William at about age 43, Louis at about age 45 and Frederick at about age 48.
The plot certainly thickens! Added to the mystery is the apparent complete absence of civil records of the births of any of the three boys - not just on FreeBMD but on the complete indexes. I have searched under Newick, Duckworth, Milne and (out of desperation) the boys' middle names Christmas, Gladstone and Harcourt. No joy :-\
Anna
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Also the 1901 census entry for William Newick shows him as widowed ???
RG13
Piece 1840
Folio 46
Page 42
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A slight caveat to what I said about William and Jane's apparently childless first two decades of marriage...
There are these two children with multiple given names in the family's apparent style who were born and died in the Midlands (Nottingham area - not so far from Leicester) between the 1871 and 1881 censuses, so can't at this stage be ruled out as children of William and Jane (but can't be ruled in either):
William Carlyle H NEWICK b Jun 1873 Basford 7b 152, d Dec 1877 Nottingham 7b 167 aged 4
Blanche Agnes F NEWICK b Jun 1874 Nottingham 7b 288, d Jun 1874 Nottingham 7b 142
Still, even if they were William and Jane's children - a huge gap to Ivy's birth in 1892.
Anna
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Maybe the children (or the youngest 3 at least (hence the different place of birth from Ivy) were adopted by Jane and taken on by Lois after the former's death in 1898. The children take on the name Newick, naturally, and Lois doesn't actually marry William - hence no birth records or marriage record and William is described as a widower in 1901. Lois takes on the position as a sort of surragate mother (of course it is possible that Lois was married to a Mr Milne and still married, though separated, so marrying William was not on the cards)
The 2 children you mentioned may well have been theirs, and it is quite possible that the pain of losing them so young was too much for Jane, so she accepted providence until........
I have never seen William Christmas, but the other 2 boys were similar in looks (tall) whilst Ivy was small
However I still don't know who Milne was or Lois's official status but I am still convinced that they cannot possibly be her birth children - not while Jane is still living (assuming she died in 1898)
Till tomorrow
Simon
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Hello Willow 4753
Can you tell me how I put a post on the Leicestershire board with a link to my topic on rootschat?
Simon
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I've just added the link to this thread on your new post, Simon :)
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As an update to this riddle - it would seem that Lois married a Mr Milne probably in 1892 and then produced 3 boys in his name.
By 1901 she and the 3 boys had moved in with Ivy and William (I think Ivy is a Newick judging by her birth details so William and Jane's child)
I can find no reference to a Milne. As Lois is down on the 1901 Census as married and Head, we must assume they parted. William is recorded as a widower in Norwich, so it is clear Lois and he were never married. He died in 1903 and she was left holding the babies for the second time.
In 1918 she remarried under the name Newick to a Charles Walker The children have always been known as Newick and none of us has been any the wiser.....until now. This is the first time that I have found out that my Mother. her Brother and their parents and descendants are called Milne not Newick.This is what can happen when researching your family tree :-\
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There isn't any evidence that the children were born in the surname Milne (no birth registrations found in either name). We can't find a marriage for Lois to either Mr Newick or Mr Milne, but she remarries as Newick. (Logically, if she was previously married to a Milne, she'd have married in the name Milne).
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Hiya Simon
I really think you need to get Ivys birth certificate to sort this puzzle out. That way we can confirm who Ivys mother is - either Jane or Lois - and we can confirm we are looking for the right William Newick because you actually haven't told us where your information comes from that he is connected to this family
Its really bugging me that we can't find any registrations for the three boys births or any marriage for Lois prior to 1918
Willow x
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Hiya Simon
Have you had any breakthrough on this connundrum?
Willow x
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Hello Willow x
Just browsing and saw your thread.
Ivy Blanche L Newick was definitely Jane and William's daughter from her birth cert.
I have asked Kathleen, daughter of the second boy Louis Gladstone Milne to purchase either her father's birth cert or that of one of the other 2 boys, to confirm their parenthood
Lois Rebecca's surname Milne remains a mystery and frankly I don't how we are going to find out why it's there. However in the 1891 Census she was living with her parents as Lois Rebecca Duckworth but by 1901 was trading under the name of Milne. Somewhere between the two are the records we need. (I though I came across a record of a marriage in 1892, but can't remember where) Someone informed me that in 1901 she was a widower, but I can find no mention of this on that Census. So what's with the Milne?
Her association with William is obvious in that she is at home (probably his) with at least one of his children, acting as Head) whilst he is in Norwich. How the two became associated I know not, especially considering their age difference)
Is it possible that the 3 boys are theirs whilst Jane is still alive? (I hope the cert will show)
We don't know when Lois became involved with William (somewhere between 1891 and 1901)
After William's death in 1903, Lois was saddled with 4 children and went to live with her mother (not that she received much solace or help from her) It wasn't until 1918 when she remarried that her struggle was eased
Simon
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Excuse my gate-crashing but has anyone looked for the children as DUCKWORTH?
(Just a thought!)
A little intrigue, I will be interested to know what the birth cert(s) say.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hiya Aaronroots
I think between us we have tried every variation on surnames we can think of and even just searching on forenames
We're all a bit stumped :(
Willow x