RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: philippaF on Saturday 09 February 08 13:58 GMT (UK)
-
Please can anyone help with information on John White. He was apparently a celebrated hunting squire of Harrow Weald. His son, Thomas, was born c1732 and died in 1812 and was a Coal Merchant of White Cross Street Saint Luke , who married Jane Smith 14 Apr 1776 St Luke Old Street as his second wife.
Many thanks
Philippa
-
Hi Phillippa
Prerogative Court of Canterbury will
Will of Thomas White, Coal Merchant of White Cross Street Saint Luke , Middlesex 13 August 1812 PROB 11/1536
There is a John White PCC for South Weald but nothing else specifically for Harrow and or Weald.
Will of John White, Gentleman of South Weald , Essex
Date 30 June 1760
Catalogue reference PROB 11/857
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda,
Thank you so much for the information. I will certainly have a look at John White of South Weald, but I suspect that Essex is just too far away from Harrow Weald. The will of the Thomas White you mention is correct. He is a younger son of John White who moved away from Harrow to White Cross Street. Unfortunately I don't know who were the other siblings of Thomas and need all the help I can get to track the family down.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Hi Phillipa
PCC will
Will of John White, Saw maker of White Cross Street, Middlesex
Date 18 March 1751
Catalogue reference PROB 11/786
That would seem to be similar to a coal merchant
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda,
I have just bought a copy of this will from the National Archives. Unfortunately I can't see a link, unless he is a brother of Thomas who died young. If he was the father I assume he would have left something to his children, not just his wife as this John has. It is unfortunate for me that he did not have a more unusual name!
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Hi Phillipa
What was the name of his wife? Do the executors give any further clues? You would have expected some mention of children even if they were underage which Thomas would have been in 1751.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda,
The name of the wife in the will of John White of White Cross Street is Judith. I don't know the name of the wife of my John White. All we know is that he was "a celebrated hunting squire of Harrow Weald" and that he is supposed to be buried in the church in Harrow but we don't know when he died. Thomas was born c1732, possibly in Harrow Weald, he is a younger son and he is buried n Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury. So we are looking for a John White born c1700 perhaps who was presumably married in the 1720s. We need to find out if there are any burial records for Harrow Weald around that time and see if there is a White family recorded.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Hi Philippa
This webpage has details on Harrow on the Hill church and the transcription of the church's monumental inscriptions. The church records are deposited at the London Metropolitan Archives.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/HarrowOnTheHill/index.html
There are 4 White PCC wils connected with Harrow on the Hill (3 for widows) - none for a Thomas White.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda,
You have found out so much information, it's wonderful. Unfortunately I don't live in London so don't have ready access to the LMA, but I will have to plan a trip to look at the records. I wonder if the three ladies who have left wills are any connection.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Hi Philippa
Unfortunately with a surname like White it is difficult to say whether any of the women do have a connection to the family you are interested in unless you access their wills and even then as with John White's will it still may not be apparent.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Philippa
Tried to view the registers on microfilm today, the register is a composite one so all the birth, deaths and marriages are mixed up, the handwriting is almost impossible to read and many pages are badly faded.
Too much of a challenge.
Sorry.
Dawn
-
Hi Dawn,
Thank you so much for trying. I guess my only hope now is that someone has been through the graveyard and made a note of the headstone's before erosion made them illegible.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
I was born in Harrow Weald ;D
If you man was the Squire of Harrow Weald,I really cannot see him being buried in a church on Harrow on the Hill.
The main church in Harrow Weald is All Saints(my inlaws are buried there)
See www.london.anglican.org/ChurchShow_2402
Not sure when it first opened but it's very old ;)
Carol
-
Hi Philippa
You could contact Harrow local studies library and ask them
http://www.lwmfhs.org.uk/record-offices/33-record-offices-a-local-studies/19-harrow-local-history-collection-.html
Depending on social standing people were buried outside or inside the church. However for someone to be buried inside the church or to have a gravestone/family tomb that might have stood some of the ravages of time, you would expect that person to have accumulated some wealth and therefore to have left a will.
Other than presumably what Thomas White the coal merchant in St Lukes said about his social background what evidence do you have that his father was indeed ' a celebrated hunting squire from Harrow Weald'? A squire would certainly be someone who was 'landed gentry'. Such a prominent individual in the parish would likely leave some record of their existence and Harrow local studies library should be able to track down something that refers to him. If so you are then left to prove a connection between John White landed gentry in Harrow and your Thomas White the coal merchant in St Lukes.
Checking through the PCC wills for John Whites between 1750-1790 (and there are 107 so a common name) the only other John White will which seems to reference to either Harrow or St Lukes is
Will of John White, Tiresmith of Saint Luke Old Street , Middlesex 09 October 1767 PROB 11/933
St Mary the Virgin, Harrow-on-the-Hill is the ancient parish church of Harrow. All Saints, Harrow Weald dates from the late 1830s, early 1840s.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/HarrowOnTheHill/index.html#ChurchHistory
I also checked Lambeth Palace Library index as specified on the link above but can't see a will held by them but that might be worth checking further.
http://www.lambethpalacelibrary.org/content/searchcollections
St Mary Harrow on the Hill
http://www.harrowhill.org/information.htm
Regards
Valda
-
The Parish of Harrow Weald was created in 1845 and building of All Saints' Church was started in 1846 according to their website. John White would have been born around 1700 and a younger son was born c1732 which is why I was looking at Harrow on the Hill, or are there any other churches in the Harrow Weald area from that time?
The reason why there may be no will is that (according to family papers) the Squire was very fond of hunting and horses and supposedly most of his money went so that the eldest son inherited an impoverished estate. Unfortunately I don't know the names of any of his children other than Thomas, who did leave a will.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Philippa
I have given you in my last post the link to the genuki website which lists all the Anglican churches in the ancient parish of Harrow and their foundation dates.
I would definitely contact Harrow local studies library because they should be able to verify information on someone who was prominent in the Harrow parish in the C1th.
When do the family papers date from before or after Thomas' time? Are they evidenced or family folk lore?
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda,
It looks as if it is most likely to be Harrow on the Hill, although it could I suppose be the one in Pinner. I emailed Harrow local studies library yesterday, and am keeping my fingers crossed that they can help. The family papers are, I suspect, a mixture of fact and myth, there is a family tree which comes from either a sister or perhaps niece of Thomas White's second wife and letters written around the 1900s from someone born in the 1860s quoting something his father told him. I can't thank you enough for all your help. I really appreciate it.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Hi Philippa
Also bearing in mind that it is possible Thomas was a self made man. If so he might have chosen to elevate his past a little to help adjust him, to his and his family's growing status in their own community.
Regards
Valda
-
Very true! That is why I am trying to prove/disprove it, but first I have to find him!
-
Hi Philippa
The Harrow Weald registers deposited at the LMA are
baptisms from 1838
marriage and burials from 1845
The other ancient churches in the area with registers that cover the dates you are looking for are
St John Stanmore from 1599
St Lawrence Stanmore from 1558
St John Pinner 1654
He could well be buried on the Hill, unfortunately the microfilm of the registers needs careful and meticulous study, I only have 30 mins at lunch-time, which is just not long enough to get to grips with.
Even with my limited geographical knowledge of the area , I would plump for Stanmore first if he's not at Harrow.
I know they have many transcriptions at Harrow and biographies of the 'rich and famous' even infamous. If they have anything there, let me know. I'm sort of local.
Dawn
-
Thanks Dawn, I will let you know if I hear back from Harrow.I feel sure there should be something on him as Burke's Peerage mentions his existence, just no details to help. I will have a look at the Stanmore churches you mention.
Best wishes
Philippa
-
Hi Phillipa
Burke's isn't necessarily accurate
http://www.burkes-peerage.net/help/about-hist.htm
but it will be interesting to see what Harrow local studies library comes up with, hopefully enough detail to further work with.
Regards
Valda