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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Shazzam on Wednesday 06 February 08 08:37 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find information on my great grandfather, Thomas Joseph Burns RYAN, who according to his marriage certificate was born approx. 1876-1877 in Liverpool, Lancashire.
He married Isabella McCabe in Ingham, Queensland, Australia, on 27 Jan 1903, and their daughter, Lilian Margaret Ryan was born 16 Dec 1903 in Charters Towers, Queensland.
His marriage certificate gives his parents' names as Thomas Burns Ryan and Ellen McBride; his occupation was draper and auctioneer; he was a widower.
After the marriage Thomas seems to just vanish and his wife, Isabella, subsequently remarries in Charters Towers on 21 Feb 1912. Information provided by an elderly family member was that soon after his marriage to Isabella, Thomas left for New Guinnea and was never heard from again. Before he left, Thomas had requested his wife to send some packages to New Guinnea, which she did, but apparently poor Isabella never heard from him again.
If Thomas came to grief in New Guinnea I feel there must be a record of it somewhere and possibly Isabella would have heard about it.
My feeling is that he returned to England.
I've also tried to locate a birth registration for a Thomas Joseph Burns Ryan in Liverpool with the right parents' names and have been unable to do this. Nor have I found a Ryan family who fits the bill on census records. I have, however, found a marriage record for a Thomas Burns and Ellen McBride in 1873, Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales. This couple moved to Liverpool and had a son, a Thomas BURNS, in 1877. Other children include John (1875), Mary Ellen (1879), Stephen (1881), Patrick (1882), Michael (1888) Richard (1890) and Elizabeth Catherine (1896).
Could this Thomas BURNS be my great grandfather? The dates fit, but if this is him, where does the RYAN come from? Perhaps it's a stepfather's name, but I can't find Ellen marrying a Ryan in later years.
My mind has entertained all possibilities, even that Thomas was a bigamist. Could he have come out to Australia on business, lied about being a widower, made up the RYAN bit, then returned to England (via New Guinnea) to an awaiting wife???
If anyone can offer some help/suggestions with this it would be greatly appreciated...I've been stuck with this line for 12 years now. If it wasn't for his marriage record and the birth of his daughter, I'd be thinking Thomas was a figment of someone's immagination!
Thanks.
Regards,
Sharyn
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Hi Shazzam, would Burns have been his Mothers maiden name??
Barbara
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Hi Barbara,
No, according to Thomas' marriage certificate his mother's name was Ellen McBride.
Sharyn
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Ooooooooooops, sorry Sharyn, that'll teach me to read things with a bit more care... :-\ :-\
Barbara
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Well, I have to say that Thomas Burns b Liverpool looks like a very interesting candidate, with his age, birthplace and mother's full maiden name matching exactly. I think it's worth finding out as much as possible about him.
This Thomas is not with his family in 1901: RG13/3461 folio 137 p32. Have you traced him? I wonder whether he is the Thomas Burns, "25", b Liverpool who is at Chester Castle in 1901 as a (married) private in the Lancaster Regiment?
RG13/3370 folio 150 p9
Anna
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Have you checked Scotland or Ireland at all.
The surname Ryan is Irish,but the Burns bit sounds more Scottish.
So does the Mc Bride(but it could also be Irish)
Did he and Isabella have lots of children ;D did they name any the same names as that family in Liverpool?
Have you ever found his arrival in Oz,presumably not that much before 1903?
Just a few more thoughts to throw into the melting pot. ;)
Carol
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Hi Anna,
Yes, I've seen that entry in the 1901 census and wondered if it could be him...there doesn't seem to be any other likely candidate, but it's also possible that Thomas had left England for Australia by the time of the census.
I've checked the immigration records and, wouldn't you know it, I can't identify him there either!
Thomas' brother, Stephen Burns, also seems to vanish. It's very frustrating.
Sharyn
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Hi Carol,
No, I haven't tried looking in Scotland, but will try it.
If the Burns and McBride families I found in Bridgend and Maesteg, Glamorgan, Wales, are the right ones they were Irish.
Thomas and Isabella Ryan only had one daughter, Lilian, born 11 months after the marriage (he'd gone by the time she was born).
I've never found him on the immigration records (under Ryan or Burns) nor any other record of him in Australia except for his marriage.
Sharyn
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Hiya Sharyn
For Isabella to remarry she would have had to provide proof she was a widow or make application to the courts for desertion
Might be worth checking on the courts to see if they have any documents
Willow x
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Thanks, Willow.
My guess is that any application would have been made in Charters Towers so I'll give that a try and see what turns up.
Sharyn
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I'm trying to find information on my great grandfather, Thomas Joseph Burns RYAN, who according to his marriage certificate was born approx. 1876-1877 in Liverpool, Lancashire.
He married Isabella McCabe in Ingham, Queensland, Australia, on 27 Jan 1903, and their daughter, Lilian Margaret Ryan was born 16 Dec 1903 in Charters Towers, Queensland.
His marriage certificate gives his parents' names as Thomas Burns Ryan and Ellen McBride; his occupation was draper and auctioneer; he was a widower.
After the marriage Thomas seems to just vanish and his wife, Isabella, subsequently remarries in Charters Towers on 21 Feb 1912. Information provided by an elderly family member was that soon after his marriage to Isabella, Thomas left for New Guinnea and was never heard from again. Before he left, Thomas had requested his wife to send some packages to New Guinnea, which she did, but apparently poor Isabella never heard from him again.
(snip)Sharyn
Well actually, you are not alone.
Burns is Irish, not scottish. There are a couple of TJ's - mine is still troublesome & occasionally elusive, and they are *all* cheeky on b'date. Here is the birth cert details for yours - hunt the BDM to get your cert https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
Name: Thomas Joseph Burns
Birth Date: 1 Jan 1886
Father's Name: Burns
Mother's Name: Ellen Burns
Birth Place: Queensland
Registration Year: 1886
Registration Place: Queensland
Page Number: 1966
Registration Number: 008432
Name: Thomas Joseph Burns Ryan
Spouse Name: Isabella McCabe
Marriage Date: 27 Jan 1903
Marriage Place: Queensland
Registration Place: Queensland
Registration Year: 1903
Registration Number: 000324
Page Number: 22910
Name: Lillian Margaret Ryan
Birth Date: 16 Dec 1903
Father's Name: Thomas Joseph Burn Ryan
Mother's Name: Isabella Mccabe
Birth Place: Queensland
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Place: Queensland
Page Number: 22876
Registration Number: 006151
Did Lillian have any relation to Aileen Margaret RYAN (b 1930's), say a neice or cousin or such?
Also it is just barely possible that Isabela McCabe's Grandaunt is Mary, who married James O'brien. If you get a nibble, come talk to me - there may yet be more to tell....