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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ann12 on Sunday 03 February 08 16:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have a marriage cert for a Robert Herbert in 1838, Lambeth London, his father is down as either Frederick or Francis, problem is, on every other document I have found the father is listed as Thomas, why a different name ? Could there have been a reason why he would call himself something else on the marriage cert ?
Robert was the last child to be married it seems. I can only find a marriage for one other sibling, however, when someone checked the St George, Hanover Square registers, the marriage wasn't registered, so I can't check for witnesses.
Any ideas ?
Thanks
Anna
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Have you looked at the church register entry for Robert's marriage, or only a certificate issued by the GRO? (I'm assuming it was a church marriage, since Register Office ones were very rare in theose early days). The clergy sometimes made mistakes in the copies they sent to the GRO. If the two entries agree, are you sure that you have the right man in the first place?
You mentioned the marriage of another sibling, but I'm a little confused. How did you find it if you think it wasn't registered? Maybe we can help with that if you give us some more information.
Mean_genie
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Hi,
I haven't checked the actual registers for Robert's marriage. I know from documents I have that he married a Margaret Smith Marshal and that his occupation was a newspaper editor, same as on the marriage cert.
His sibling was called William Hyatt Herbert, he is confirmed as Robert's brother. I found a marriage entry for William (the only one with the exact name) in the IGI. I know that the entire family moved to London from Seaford in the early 1820/30s, so I can only presume that they are one and the same :-\ I hope !!
Thanks
Anna
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I looked at the IGI entry for William Hyatt Herbert's marriage, and although it gives an exact date and place, it was submitted by an individual researcher, and not extracted from a register, so it is hard to check because you don't know what the source was that the submitter consulted.
From the infromation you have, it seems you have the right man, so I'd definitely suggest checking the church register for Robert's marriage, just in case the GRO copy contains a mistake. Does the father's occupation match with what you already know, or isn't it given?
And one final thought, have you looked for any wills that members of the family might have left? Where they exist, they can be awfully good for establishing or proving relationships.
Mean_genie
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ROBERT HERBERT
Christening: 09 JUN 1816 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
GEORGE HERBERT
Christening: 27 AUG 1809 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
1851 census HO107 1646 folio 375
1 Golden Lane at 14 Western Street Brighton
George Herbort 41 Head Married Bricklayer Seaford Sussex
Sarah Herbort 39 Wife Married Charwoman Westergate Sussex
Grace Herbort 13 Daughter Chelsea Middlesex
George Herbort 10 Son Paddington Middlesex
Charles Herbort 8 Son Brighton Sussex
Henrietta Herbort 3 Daughter Brighton Sussex
GEORGE HERBERT
SARAH CAIGER
Marriage: 20 AUG 1833 Saint Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex
Births Dec 1842
HERBERT Charles Caiger Brighton 7 239
1841 census St Mary Marylebone with two oldest known children.
1871 census George senior was in Brighton workhouse.
Deaths Sep 1872
HERBERT George 63 Brighton 2b 133
Regards
Valda
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IGI - controlled extraction
Thomas Herbert m. Grace Medhurst
1st May 1800, Seaford
Gadget :)
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Bar a clercal error, the certificate shows the information given by the participant - there would be no questioning unless the recorder was suspicious. I have a couple of cases where the father's christian name is incorrect. In one case the father had died when the groom was under 2 years of age, so probably he never his father's name and when asked gave his own name to avoid embarassment. In other cases, a brother's name was given - maybe the marriage was not approved of by his family? I dare say it was stressful to have a stern cleric fire questions at you - and you may blurt out the wrong answer, which you wouldn't want to then correct.
Nigel
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Good point Nigel. Now that I think of it, on the day that we wed, the Person To whom I Was Once Married was so paralysed with nerves that he had to ask me how old he was when the Registrar asked his age! And a friend of mine gave her father's name but her stepfather's occupation. I guess no-one is quite at their mental best on their wedding day.
Mean_genie
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Having said that Robert Herbert was a newspaper editor so you would expect that he would be less likely to suffer from nerves or be overwhelmed when 'confronted' by officialdom. He would also be literate so he would see any mistake made on the certificate as he signed. You might have thought if he did see any mistake he would request that the error was corrected.
The GRO certificate is not an original but a copy if the original marriage was held in a church. The original marriage certificate would be in the church register. The GRO's 'certificate' is merely a copy sent to them by the local registrar.
It would be interesting to know what occupation Robert's father was given on Robert's marriage certificate and whether that correspondended with the occupation given on Robert's baptism in 1816 for his father. The difference between George Herbert of Brighton's occupation - a bricklayer and Robert Herbert's, a newspaper editor, seems a little unusual for brothers.
Regards
Valda
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ANN TIPPIN HERBERT
Christening: 14 JUN 1805 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
ANN TIPPEN HERBERT
Spouse: WILLIAM BINFIELD
Marriage: 15 DEC 1833 Saint James, Paddington, London
Deaths Sep 1849
Benfield Ann Tippen Kensington 3 396
It might also be worth checking to see whether Robert's older sister Grace left a will as she died unmarried and was living with his son Charles for the latter part of her life (Grace was of independent means on the 1891 census in Lee Lewisham).
GRACE HYOTT HERBERT
Christening: 29 MAY 1802 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
Deaths Mar 1901
Herbert Grace Hyatt 98 Lewisham 1d 708
In case anyone can find the other siblings these are their baptisms.
THOMAS HERBERT
Christening: 01 MAY 1800 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
WILLIAM HYATT HERBERT
Christening: 15 JAN 1804 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
SUSANNA HERBERT
Christening: 22 DEC 1807 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
EDMUND HERBERT
Christening: 21 FEB 1812 Seaford, Sussex
Father: THOMAS HERBERT
Mother: GRACE
Regards
Valda
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If Robert did indeed marry twice as evidenced by his will
http://herbertfamily.me.uk/Herbertfamilytree.htm
have you checked his second marriage certificate to see what information is given about his father?
Regards
Valda
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Hi,
Thank you all so much for your help !! Much appreciated :)
According to Robert's first marriage cert his father was a Newspaper Editor as well.
Thanks for finding Ann Tippen Herbert's and George's details - I haven't been able to find anything on them, apart from their bith dates. Armed with the info you have given I have another avenue to search - thanks again !
Robert did re-marry, 1 year after Margaret's death (she died in 1863, same month as the birth of their 17th child :'(
His children were sent to live with various relatives, including the older brothers and Grace Hyatt. Robert died in 1869 leaving everything to his 2nd wife, there was no mention of his children in the Will.
As a bit of extra information, Robert and Margaret's first son, also called Robert, disappeared after 1851, I can't find any trace of him post the 1851 census.
Thank you all again.
Anna
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Hi,
One other thing, on the IGI lists Thomas Herbert ch. 1 May 1800, Seaford (father Thomas, mother Grace) as an extracted record, however Thomas and Grace were married on that day, I have a copy of their marriage registration as proof ? I'm slightly confused by this ???
Anna
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If he were born out of wedlock then he may not have been bapt. until his parents marriage so that he would be bapt. with his father's name.
Just a thought
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Hi,
I have a marriage cert for a Robert Herbert in 1838, Lambeth London, his father is down as either Frederick or Francis, problem is, on every other document I have found the father is listed as Thomas, why a different name ? Could there have been a reason why he would call himself something else on the marriage cert ?
Robert was the last child to be married it seems. I can only find a marriage for one other sibling, however, when someone checked the St George, Hanover Square registers, the marriage wasn't registered, so I can't check for witnesses.
Any ideas ?
Thanks
Anna
Was the father of the groom also a Francis/Frederick? I have the same case with my GGG grandmother's father, Patrick, who was put down as John on her marriage. However, her husband's father was a John, so I think the registrar must've assumed both fathers were John, instead of just the groom's.
Andrew
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Hello Anna
Which parish church in Lambeth was Robert married in? It should say on the marriage certificate. It might be worth checking the parish registers which are held at the London Metropolitan Archives, I believe, to see if they differ in any way.
Kind regards
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IGI - controlled extraction
Thomas Herbert m. Grace Medhurst
1st May 1800, Seaford
Gadget :)
I looked on the Sussex Marriage Index for this marriage and found
Archdeaconry of Lewes Marriage Licence
25 April 1800
Thomas Herbert - subject detail - Bach 24+ mariner Seaford
Grace Medhurst - spouse detail - sp 18+ otsp wcof Robt.M clocksmith Thos a Beckett Cliffe Lewes
Sponsors: T.H. John Holman yeo otsp - SRS 25
and the marriage at Seaford, East Sussex
1st May 1800
Thomas Herbert - bach and Grace Medhurst - sp botp (lic)
abbreviations - sp = spinster. bach = bacheolor - otsp = of the same parish. wcof = with consent of father. yeo = yeoman. SRS = Sussex Record Society and volume number
Suey
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Not sure which of these marriages is the correct one but from Robert's will you presumably know his second wife's first name and can tell which is the correct marriage. On his second marriage what name and occupation is given for Robert's father?
Marriages Jun 1864
Herbert Robert Mayon Croydon 2a 321
Marriages Sep 1864
Herbert Robert Colchester 4a 373
Herbert Robert Windsor 2c 723
On his first marriage Robert may not have wished his new in laws to know his father was a mere mariner and elevated his father to a newspaper editor.
Regards
Valda
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Hi everyone :-)
So the confusion continues....
Today, I found a Marriage Allegation on Ancestry for Thomas Herbert.... it says:
8 May 1799
Thomas Herbert of the Parish of Fulham, Middx a bachelor above the age of 21.
Intends to marry Grace Medhurst of the same Parish and above the age of 21...
I can't find an actual marriage for them in London, only the Allegation.
but we also have the following:
Archdeaconry of Lewes Marriage Licence
25 April 1800
Thomas Herbert - subject detail - Bach 24+ mariner Seaford
Grace Medhurst - spouse detail - sp 18+ otsp wcof Robt.M clocksmith Thos a Beckett Cliffe Lewes
Sponsors: T.H. John Holman yeo otsp - SRS 25
and the marriage at Seaford, East Sussex
1st May 1800
Thomas Herbert - bach and Grace Medhurst - sp botp (lic)
It looks to me, and I might be wrong, that there was opposition to their marriage, so they decided to run off to London to do the deed, but at some point afterwards they returned to Seaford (without going through the actual marriage in London) and were married a year later with the consent of her father!! An expensive exercise I would have thought, a Marriage Allegation in London and then marrying by License in Seaford... They settled in Seaford for a number of years, moving back to London sometime after 1816 (when their son Robert was born) but before 1827 as that's when Grace died... what a confusing family!!
Anna
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I've looked at an image of the St Mary's register and the father of Robert is shown there as Thomas Herbert, Editor of a Newspaper (same occupation as Robert) :)