RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RoDe on Sunday 03 February 08 10:41 GMT (UK)
-
:)
Apologies if this subject has already been covered but being a novice to Rootschat still finding my way round. Have trawled the site a wee bit but can't find any other posts that would appear to help.
One of my ancestors, a Mary J. Hughes was born in France in 1821 but then moved to the Bilston area which was then in Staffordshire, now in county of West Midlands. Where should I start in France to get birth details?
Any help gratefully appreciated.
RoDe
-
Hi RoDe,
Try this topic on the Immigrants board for some general information:
Topic: French Relatives - Where do I start?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,173401.0.html
another source of general information is the new Familysearch resource:
Topic: New resource from Familysearch
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,259450.0.html
Good luck,
Bob
-
From your other messages, this is the family, right?:
Sarah Hughes (b. 1851) (married John Henry Harris)
mother Mary J, b. abt 1821 France.
So she wasn't nee Hughes.
1871 census, Bilston:
RG10/2950 72/10
Thomas Hughes, 47, coal miner, b. North Wales
Mary, 45, wife, b. France
Sarah, 20, dau, b. Bilston
John, 18, son, ironworker b. Bilston
Emanuel, 16, son, ironworker b. Bilston
Thomas, 14, son, ironworker b. Greatbridge
William, 9, son, ironworker, b. Darlston
1861, Bilston Road, Darleston
RG9/2009 46/41
Thomas Hughes, 36, coal miner, b. St Martin Shropshire
Mary, wife, 34, b. France
Sarah, dau, 11, b. Bilston
Emanuel, son, 6, b. Bilston
Thomas, son, 4, b. Tipton
-
Hi jorose
Re your post number 2.
The first part accords with that of the 1891 census RG12 62/29 which shows at 8 back 65 Bilston Street – John Henry Harris (my great grandfather) Iron works labourer aged 39/Sarah wife aged 40 and 4 children aged from 18 to 4.
Also in the same house – Thomas Hughes Iron worker aged 33/Susanna wife aged 29 and 2 children aged from 2 to 5mths.
At 10 back 65 Bilston Street were – Mary J Hughes born 1821 France/John Hughes Ironworker son aged 38/Mary Harris Tin worker god daughter aged 18/Thomas Harris god son aged 10 and 2 visitors.
So presumably Thomas & John in the 1891 census were sons of Mary J. The ages are right for a woman of 70. Although the 1861 census shows Mary living at Darlaston she may well have moved to Bilston somewhere between 1861 and 1891, particularly as in 1891 there was no male of a similar age in the household so somewhere along the line her husband Thomas must have died.
The only thing that doesn’t accord is the birth year shown in the 1861/1871 censuses which would indicate born 1826/1827 but which I think should be 1821. However, how accurate were the ages quoted in those days?, bearing in mind many people weren’t particularly well educated. Could they be out by as much as 5/6 years?
Sad to see a child (William) as an ironworker at the age of 9.
Many thanks for the information. It adds a bit more to the jigsaw.
Rgds
-
Darlaston and Bilston are so close together that they could have only moved a short way to get from one to the other. (Note the address in 1861!).
I've seen ages out by a good ten years, especially when the person in question is older and the person giving the information might have been a relative unsure of the details (My mother in law? Well, she's about 70, I think...)
Now familysearch is back up, I can see the family in 1881 as well - she's listed as 55, France (British Subject), and a granddaughter, Mary Harris, is with the family. So I'd guess around 1826 is the correct birth age, and the 1891 census is the odd one out.
She might well have not been French but born to an English family who were temporarily in France for some reason, so it's important to track down her maiden name and marriage record so you can see what her father's occupation was.
-
That's three census returns that pinpoint Mary Hughes' birth year as 1825/1826 so it may be that the age quoted in the 1891 census is incorrect. I haven't yet seen the actual 1891 census record; the information was given to me by another rootschat member also researching Bilston ancestors and perhaps the census was misread or difficult to read for some reason. Anyway, no matter, it all seems to fit.
-
Further query to all you French experts out there. Have now found Mary Hughes in the 1891 census and under 'WHERE BORN' it states 'France(British Subject)'
Where therefore is the birth likely to be recorded - France or England?
Any guidance gratefully appreciated.
-
This may be intended to make it clear that her father was English, although if she was French she would also technically have become a British subject upon marrying.
If her family were English, her birth could be recorded in several places:
She could conceivably have been registered with the local French authorities (civil registration, not christening), although I'm not sure how common this one was.
If the family were in a place like Paris, where there was an Anglican chapel (the British Embassy chapel), she could have been christened there.
They could have waited until they returned to England and then had the children born overseas all christened together.
She's born too early to be registered in the overseas (consular) registrations - they didn't start recording until 1847.
If her family were military she might be in the overseas military records, but I think she's in the wrong time period for there to be much of a British presence in France.
She might just have been missed - it happened.
I would recommend that you find or get someone to find for you the family in 1851, locate the birth record of daughter Sarah and then the marriage of Thomas Hughes and Mary (nee ???). You may be able to, from the info on the marriage certificate, find her with her family in 1841 or other members of the family in the Bilston area in 1851 onwards. The father's occupation might clue you into why they were in France or one of her siblings might list the exact town they were born in in censuses.
-
census 1851
HO107/202/96/22
Thomas 29 Wales coal miner
Mary 24 France (British subject)
Sarah 6 months
at Hallfields, Bilston
-
Bilston district comes under Wolverhamton 1837 - 1935 (Genuki registration districts)
Search 1850 September to December quarters.
one only, unfortunately numbers are missing.
Births Sep 1850
Hughes Sarah Wolverhampton 17 *
checked previous quarter - it's still the only one.
It's worth considering that your Sarah may not have been registered.
-
I think the birth reg above may be for the third name on the list. If you phone the local office, and ask them for confirmation of the father's and mother's first names, they may tell you and then you will know whether to buy it or not.
West Midlands Birth indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Reference
HUGHES Samuel Sedgley Dudley Register Office SEG/032/77
HUGHES Sarah J Sedgley Dudley Register Office SEG/032/267
HUGHES Sarah Dudley Dudley Register Office DUD/040/50
HUGHES Sarah Sedgley Dudley Register Office SEG/031/78
from westmidlandsbmd.
-
Thanks for that which further confirms earlier information. When I first enquired on the FreeBMD site it cam up with 60 pages of Sarah Hughes', of which six were in Wolverhampton, in about the right age group. The 1891 census gave her age as 40 giving a birth year of 1851 give or take a year so the birth registered in September 1850 is almost certainly the one as the next Sarah Hughes registration is September 1853. As the page number isn't quoted in the FreeBMD record does that mean I won't be able to order a certificate through GRO? Might try Wolverhampton archives for her birth certificate or wait until 1st April when the GRO records go on line and see what that says. It's her mom, Mary J. born France 1821, that's going to be difficult to trace because of the need to know the region where she was actually born.
-
Hi all
Have had this on the back burner for a while but would now hope to make further progress. Have established that Mary Hughes' maiden name was Hill and have been looking for a marriage record to get her fathers name and occupation. Have found the following entry on FreeBMD:-
Mary Hill Marriage Dec 1849. Wolverhampton. Vol 17 Page 463
But can't find a matching entry for her husband Thomas Hughes only the following :-
Thomas Hughes Marriage Dec 1849. Wolverhampton. Vol 17 page 464
If the above entries are correct their respective ages at marriage would be Mary 23 and Thomas 25. I have looked at the original entries and the page numbers are as above so there has not been a transcription error.
I believe, but correct me if I am wrong, that both partners should have exactly the same reference but is it possible that one entry could be on one page and the other on the one immediately following? Any clarification gratefully appreciated
-
If you click on the page numbers on freebmd it will give you the names of all the people entered on that page in alphabetical order, and this will include the partner of the person searched for. In the case of Mary Hill there is no Thomas Hughes on the page.
-
It is possible a mistake was made in the composing of the GRO index, but in this case there seem to be the proper number of spouses on pages 463 and 464 - eight people are listed for each reference.
Perhaps their marriage is the one in Dudley in Dec 1849 quarter, Vol 18 page 444? (Next district over - have a look at how close Dudley and Bilston are on the map).
-
Thanks Silvery & Jorose.
I didn't realise that by clicking on the page number in FreeBMD that you could get a list of all names on that specific page. I have been working with blinkers on in as much as because all of my Harris ancestors so far were born and lived in Bilston (Wolverhampton), that's where I was looking for members of the Hughes family. Have now found a Thomas Hughes and a Mary Hill with the same reference, Vol.18 page 444 registered at Dudley in Dec 1849. I assume at this stage it is the marriage I am looking for because I would think that the odds of there being two Thomas Hughes' and two Mary Hill's marrying each other is very remote. I previously didn't consider the possibility of Mary coming back from France and going to live in Dudley, possibly I suppose with parents at some time previous to marriage.
Thanks to all.
-
This may be intended to make it clear that her father was English, although if she was French she would also technically have become a British subject upon marrying.
If her family were English, her birth could be recorded in several places:
She could conceivably have been registered with the local French authorities (civil registration, not christening), although I'm not sure how common this one was.
If the family were in a place like Paris, where there was an Anglican chapel (the British Embassy chapel), she could have been christened there.
They could have waited until they returned to England and then had the children born overseas all christened together.
She's born too early to be registered in the overseas (consular) registrations - they didn't start recording until 1847.
If her family were military she might be in the overseas military records, but I think she's in the wrong time period for there to be much of a British presence in France.
She might just have been missed - it happened.
I would recommend that you find or get someone to find for you the family in 1851, locate the birth record of daughter Sarah and then the marriage of Thomas Hughes and Mary (nee ???). You may be able to, from the info on the marriage certificate, find her with her family in 1841 or other members of the family in the Bilston area in 1851 onwards. The father's occupation might clue you into why they were in France or one of her siblings might list the exact town they were born in in censuses.
HI Jorose
I now have a copy of Mary Hughes' (nee Hill) wedding certificate which confirms she married in Dudley. Her father is shown as Charles Hill, occupation Miner. So what was a miner doing in France in 1826 the year of Mary's birth. Seems an unlikely occupation to necessitate going there. So, it doesn't take me any further forward so back to the drawing board.
Thanks a lot.
-
!!!
1861 census,
RG9/2004, 74/13
7 Bilston Street Court C(?), Bilston
Charles Hill, 59, iron moulder, b. Butterley Derbyshire
Sarah, 56, wife, b. Staffordshire West????
Thomas, 19, son, Pudler, b. Bilston
John Hughes, 8, grandson, b. Bilston
Samuel Shipley, 18, lodger, forgeman, b. Newton
The IGI shows a number of children christened in Bilston to this family.
In 1841:
HO 107/1001/2 folio 8 page 7
Hall Fields, Bilston, Wolverhampton
Charles Hill, 39, Iron Lab, b. out of county
Sarah, 37, b. in county
Elizabeth, 13, b. out of country ("France" written next to that?)
Charles, 10, b. out of county ('dittoed' for France?)
John, 7, b. in county
Henry, 5, b. in county
Willm, 2, b. in county
I think in 1871 Sarah might be widowed, living in Walsall with a widowed sister Hannah Adams. Place of birth looks like Westbromich. In 1881 she's living with her widowed daughter, Sarah Jones.
Still trying to find what happened to the children Charles and Elizabeth, who may be clues to where in France the family were. I don't have access to the 1851 census, which would help a lot.
-
The Industrial Revolution in Iron: The Impact of British Coal Technology (on Google Books), mentions an iron works at Saint-Julien in the Saint-Etienne region. At around this time, it seems 'English-type' ironworks were being set up and workers were hired from Staffordshire and Wales - Joseph Bessy, the owner of the Saint-Julien works, apparently hired most of his workers from Bilston.
This was during the 1820s - as time wore on, the local workers were trained and replaced the foreign ones. There's a fair bit of information in the book about money etc.
Saint-Julien-Molin-Molette might be the Saint-Julien in the Saint-Etienne region that is mentioned.
-
Hi Jorose
Firstly, small apology but I gave you a wee bit of duff information in my posting yesterday due to misreading Mary Hill's wedding certificate. I gave her fathers occupation as miner but it was in fact moulder. Thomas Hughes, Mary's husbands father was the miner.
Now, many thanks for the information on Charles Hill. I think you probably have the right person from the 1841 census because of them living in Hallfields. Several generations of the Harris family and also associated relatives (Hughes etc) lived there (Hallfields no longer appears on maps due to redevelopment decades ago). The info about French employers hiring English workers would explain why Charles Hill as a moulder was living and working in France at the time of Mary's birth in 1826. However, Mary isn't listed in the 1841 census at which time she would have been 15 years of age. Could have been staying with relatives perhaps ? The other factor that makes me think you have the right Charles Hill is that there were other children born in France. Plenty for me to go at. I will have contact in June with a French couple visiting a neighbour. I'd planned to ask them if they would be willing to do a bit of research for me when they get back to France. Looks very much like you have narrowed down the area of search.
Kind regards
Royston
-
15 years old was old enough to be out to work - there is one, aged 15 or 16 (a bit blurred) in Bilston in 1841 at Temple Street with the family of John Winiper? (not sure on the surname there, index has it ias Winsper). Listed as in county but if the family she was living with gave the info they might not have known.
It's an interesting bit of history about the English workers who went to France - one I wasn't aware of before. :)