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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jjq on Tuesday 29 January 08 20:09 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I have 2 photographs of my great uncle (William G Wells 1899-194) who was a patrol leader in the All Saints , Harrow Weald (Middlesex) Scout Group.
I wonder if there are any experts out there who can deduce any further information from them - badges etc?One picture is "taken" from the other - if you know what I mean!).
Is there a more appropriate board for me to post them on?
Regards & thanks on advance
Jan
The archivist at the Church is also interested in the history of these pictures!
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Have you thought about contacting the Scouts head office? Their website is www.scouts.org.uk.
Good luck,
Nanny Jan
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Hi
I did contact them a while back - but they seemed to be more interested in having a copy of the pictures - will try them again!!
Regards
Jan
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H Jan,
Fantastic photo ;D ;D
I will be at my local scout group on Monday, so I could take along the photo - if thats ok? The scout leader may be able to identify the old badges etc.we also have old scouting books so may be able to help to identify the old proficiency badges. I think one is possibly a pioneer badge but not entirely sure.
We still have that type of tent which the scouts have to learn how to put up, they have enough trouble sometimes with the modern tents let alone the old ones. They've got the same mischievous look in their eye though even 90 odd years later ;D
Zoe
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Hi Jan !
It may take you a while to browse but maybe these sites will help you !!
http://www.johnrhoggarth.co.uk/
http://www.patchcamp.com/
Annie :)
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Zoe
Many thanks for the offer - I would be most grateful. The picture is of my great uncle who died of diptheria aged 14 in 1913. I have a newspaper cutting about his funeral. He was one of the first scouts in his area. When I contacted the Scouts association several years ago, they said that they had no records of this particular scout group - they had not survived.
All help is greatly appreciated.
Jan
P.S. Have attached the newspaper clipping - in case anyone is interested. My grandfather attended the funeral (he was going out with my gran (William's sister) at the time. He said it was a "very military-like " funeral)
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Annie
Thanks for the links - will have a look at them tomorrow - have got a day off work!
Regards
Jan
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Jan,
Such a shame about your great uncle but the description of his funeral is wonderful (if you know what I mean)
Pity about there being no records of the group, I see from the All saints web site that the group are one of the oldest in the world.
Thank you for the links Annie
Zoe
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What a great thread. I hope the Scouts Association do get a copy of the picture and then do a bit of research to put this troop back into the archive.
I think it is an unexploited area of research. My own Mum was Hampshire's first Queen's Guide and met Lady Baden-Powell and Princess Margaret at the award ceremony in 1948, and I'd love to see more people taking an interest in this type of award :)
So sad about the Scout who died.. the newspaper report is very moving in a strange way.. They must have been really struggling with their "stiff upper lip" :(
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This looks like a seven boy patrol in front of their tent Usually a bell housed six sleeping feet to the pole but if they had minimum gear seven would have been housed. The lad sitting with the two leaders was probably the troop leader an older boy at the top of the age limit who helped the leaders. Later he would have been a Rover on the ground you can see their patrol pennant this small pennant would have had the patrol emblem in the centre the patrol had the name of the bird depicted the boy next to your Uncle has a whistle lanyard usually whistles were worn by the PL (patrol leader and PS patrol second Badges were divided into “Interest “ and “service” badges and worn on different sleeves but this is confusing as they are wearing the first aid badge(the one like a cross on the interest arm and I thought First aid was a service badge. They are not wearing woggles to hold their neckers so I think they must have been introduced later than 1913. The whole uniform resembled the cavalry uniform of BP's service days The necker was to keep the dust from the cavalry man's mouth and to stop sweat running down his neck it was a triangle shape and doubled as a triangular bandage and could be folded into a narrow bandage although somewhat bulky They have tied knots in the ends of the necker this was to remind the boy he must do a good turn before the day is out once the Good turn was done he could untie the knot I can't see any garter ribbons but they were made from loosely woven wool and a strand could easily be pulled out to use as darning wool should the need arise The braid hanging from their left shoulder was another patrol marker being the colours of their particular patrol bird the first interest badge should be sewn in line with the bottom of these patrol flashes. The tent has been brailed that is the lower wall has been rolled up to allow the grass inside the tent to get the air First thing in the day if it was dry this wall would have been half brailed ie looped up under the eaves to dry the sod cloth a Hessian strip that touches the ground once that is dry the wall is fully brailed as shown by rolling it up inside the tent and holding it in place with quick release hitches needed if it came to rain in order to drop the wall quickly
Sorry but I can not make out any other badges other that the PL's chevrons
Lovely historic photograph.
Trees
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Trees .. what can I say, but THANK YOU !!!!!! :) :) :)
What a wealth of information you have given me - I am amazed! It is more than I hoped for.
It is one of my favourite family photos - the only other one I have with William on is a group family picture (on the restoration board). I would have loved to have known him - such a shame he died so young - but then again, he would have been an age to be called up for the First World War. To think that his father wasn't sure whether to let Will join the scouts!
Once again, many thanks -I will keep a copy of your information with the original photographs - for future historians!!
Regards
Jan
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My pleasure Jan only wish I could help further. My Dad was an early Cub Scout and Mum a Guide I have photos of them under Youth movements in the social history section of our web site. I have served as both a Guider and Scouter. but not in the early days ;D, and have many happy memories of the movement.I hope someone else can take the information a little further for you.
Trees
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Hi Jan,
Well I showed the picture to the scout leader and DC (District Commisioner) last night. They were, like all of us fascinated by it. They can remember wearing those large hats - in the 50's though :D
To be honest they weren't really able to come up with anything different to Trees excellent information, although we think that as well as a first aid badge we think we can identify a camp service badge as well (its the other one that looks like a cross). The scout leader is going to have a look at home for some older scout books to see if he can identify any others. We have books dating back to the 1930's in the scout hut.
We haven't been able to identify the badge on the right hand side on the shirt front - the one that looks like a life buoy (well it does to me anyway).
Sorry I can't give you any other info, but if the scout leader comes up with anything else I will let you know.
Everytime I look at the photo I can't help thinking that a few years later those boys would be in the war, I wonder how many, if any came back? :(
Zoe
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The hat was known as "a wide awake" I still have mine worn as Akela in the 60's we kept to the old style hat as we couldn't get a scoutleader for a while and my boys went as a guest patrol to a different group so the hat distinguished us as well as our scarf. an awful lot of hats were lost at the BP centinary jamboree in Sutton Colefield when we cheered the chief by throwing the hats in the air ;D great days
Trees
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Trees and Zoe
Many thanks for all your help and information - it is greatly appreciated.
(Incidentally, I am still waiting for a reply to my e-mail to the Scouts Website. Will let you know if I hear anything else!)
Regards
Jan
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You may like a peep at my dad as an early Cub He's on my site under Youth movements
Trees
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Hi Trees
I had a quick peep at the site this evening - great !
I will have a more thorough look tomorrow! I was only a Brownie - in the days of the triangular tie which could be used as a sling! My mother & Aunt were in the Girls Life Brigade (1930's)
Regards
Jan
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that was a great tie already a wide bandage and held down with a safety pin for use with the full sling if requires Ah happy days those were the days when Brownies wore Brown today they are Yellowies ugh but I bet they still have fun ;D
Trees
I was a Guide then Cadet (I wonder if anyone remembers the Guiding cadets we were the training branch same age as rangers we wore a guiders uniform with a white folded tie) then guider (captain) then outdoor activities commissioner and had extention guides at the same time as being Chil to my husbands pack gave up my own cub pack before I met him due to work.
you've brought back happy memories
Trees
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I've been researching POW's in WW2 after the fall of Singapore and I came across this - and I thought maybe it would be of interest to you !
http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/bamboo.htm
Annie :)
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Wow Annie what a wonderful site the BP spirit must have helped those brave young men under unimaginable difficulties Thank you for sharing it
Trees
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Thank you Annie :D
Trees has said it better than I could :D
Zoe
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What a great site - thank you Annie
Jan
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Like Trees I'm a long standing movement member - but of course originally Guides not Scouts.
If I can add my two -pen'th: I think the badge above the chevrons on the right arm is the old Second Class Badge.
And, I have read somewhere (can't remember where?) that B-P. considered the second and especially First Class badges to be the ones a scout should aim for, thus they were originally on their own - ie: interest and service badges on one sleeve, second and first class on the other.
Also, I did wonder when I first saw this picture whether they were a particularly affiliated troop - the chevrons for example I don't recall seeing often, and PL stripes were pocket-worn from quite early on, plus the "life-buoy" badge - which I have never seen before.
Your mention of the Sutton Coldfield Jamboree brought back memories - I recall visiting it with my brother's troop - and Jamboree has a special place in our families scouting history - (switch off here if you wish !) When I was enrolled as a guide in 1956 I was enrolled with my mother's trefoil badge, and she had been enrolled in 1929 - and was a visitor at the Arrowe Park Jamboree that year.
Mum went on to be a Ranger, Guider and for 30 years was a Brown Owl, I have been Guide Captain and Akela, my brother has been Queens Scout, Venture Leader and is now a gang show producer and District Leader.
But I still can't identify anything else in the picture!