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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: mags on Tuesday 29 January 08 19:27 GMT (UK)
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My Grand Mother was born in Bansha, we always thought her name was Margaret O'Sullivan but I am not sure now as the birth record to fit her date of birth, says Margaret Sullivan,,, also under Denomination,,, it says Civil Parish/ District. the question is,,,,,,, is she Roman Catholic .... or Church of Ireland..
I cannot find a Marriage record for her either in Tipperary or Kildare, where she was working before she married my Grandad, John O'Neill in 1903.
any help would be greatfully received..
Thank you.
Margaret.
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Assuming she was born after the start of civil registration of births (began 1864 in Ireland) it sounds as though you are talking about information taken from a birth registration. Civil Parish are different from Roman Catholic Parishes which is probably what you are thinking of here.
A birth certificate will list the name, date and exact place of birth (townland), name and occupation of father (unless illegitimate) and mother's name, name and address (townland, civil parish) of informant, date of registration and name of person qualified to register the birth (Registrar or local doctor, etc.) and will also give registration district. A birth certificate does not mention what religion the family might have been.
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Hi aghadowey, Thank you for for your reply, I am just trying to find out if she
was Catholic or not, I got it from the Bru Boru Cultrural Centre-Online.
Birth Record, Margaret Sullivan d.o.b 1869. I have an address, Lisvarrinane
Parish / district Bansha. Civil Parish District
Her Parents name and mothers maiden name and fathers occupation.
in what way are Civil parishes different from Roman catholic Parishes, I am a bit
of a dumbo on these things, so if you can help I would be delighted,,,
Margaret.
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The Irish system of land divisions can be cofusing to outsiders so you are not alone. However, I'm a bit confused by the information you were given.
Lisvarrinane (townland)- 661 acres. Civil Parish- Clonbeg. Poor Law Union- Tipperary. Barony- Clanwilliam. County- Tipperary. Province- Munster.
Bansha West (townland)- 509 acres. Civil Parish- Templeneiry. (Poor Law Union, Barony, County & Province same as above).
Bansha East (townland)- 125 acres. Civil Parish- Templeneiry.
A birth certificate should list the townland which seems to be Lisvarrinane. Suspect that Bansha is might be the registration district but not familiar with Co. Tipperary itself.
Some of these sites might help explain the land divisions here (applies to all Ireland):
www.ulsterancestry.com/ulster_townlands_by_county.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townland
www.ulsterplacenames.org/land_division_in_ireland.htm
www.thecore.com/seanruad
And for County Tipperary (you might want to bookmark this site to refer to it again):
www.rootsweb.com/~irltip/townlands
which leads to detailed information on Lisvarrinane- Catholic Diocese of Cashel & Emly, Catholic Parish of Galbally:
www.rootsweb.com/~irltip/townlands/Lisvarrinane.htm
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Hi aghadowey,
Thank you for your help, It is a Birth Record from the site Bru Boru Cultural Centre, which lets you search the records and then charge 10 euro if you want that record.it doesn't say Birth Certificate.
Thank you for your help and the links, I will look into them soon.
Margaret.
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There are 2 families showing up in Griffiths Valuation, Maruice Sullivan and Margaret Sullivan.
Could either of these be Margarets parents?
Peter.
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Hi Peter, I got my grand mothers Marriage certificate and it
says, Margaret O'Sullivan, parents,Thomas O'Sullivan and Margaret Gilmartin.>Galbally so I had a look for her birth
record and it said Margaret Sullivan, father Thomas Sullivan
and mother Margaret Kilmartin so do I have the wrong Sullivan/O'Sullivan or is the O' of any importance, it is just a bit confusing as some one said if you were O' you were RC and if not maybe C of I , they got married in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin.
Thank you for your interest.
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Dear Margaret,
No truth in that rumour whatsoever.
In simple terms, O' means 'descended from' and in the Gaelic language almost all names were preceded by either O' or Mac (meaning 'son of'). The Penal Laws made it illegal to use the Gaelic language or any form of Irish name.
About 150 years ago the growth on the Gaelic League encouraged some families to re-adopt the O' and particularly after Independence it became quite common if not fashionable to have a leading O'.
Within my own family I have 3 forms of the same name, 1 with an O', the other two without. I have one case in the 20th century where a father, his son and his daughter all spelled their name differently.
There's a lot of reading matter available on the net but you can take it for certain that the way a person spells their name is no indicator of their denomination.
Best wishes,
Peter.
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Thank you Peter,it's nice to have an explanation, I will remember that.
Best Wishes.
Margaret.
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Also 'Kil' and 'Gil' at the start of Irish/Scottish surnames are often interchangable.
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Thank you Aghadowey, but it is very confusing, do people not take one 'kil' or 'Gil' and stick to it.?
but that information is very useful to know, thank you.
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The spelling of surnames vary greatly according to how literate a person was, their accent (especially if they moved to another area/country) and the person writing down the name.
McElfatricks in my connection are also written as Kilpatrick and Kirkpatrick and it didn't help that they went to Australia and then Canada.
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... they got married in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin.
Hello Mags,
There's not a Cathedral for members of the Roman Catholic faith in Dublin but there
is St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral which is located at 83, Marlborough Street in the city.
Christopher
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Hi Christopher, yes they got married in St, Mary's Pro-Cathedral in
Dublin, but I wondered why there and the woman at St. Mary's couldn't say, it could have been my grandmothers local church at that time, was all she could have guessed.
Can you explain to me the difference. I know there is Christ's Church Cathedral, I used to pass it every day going into town but never went into it and know also where the Pro-Cathedral is but again had no reason or maybe no time to go in. I know important people like S.T. O'Kelly, and Michael Collins funerals were held there
and they were of the Catholic faith,. what I would like to know is,
would my grandparents have gotten married there because my grand mother was not a Catholic ? the marriage took place in 1903 or how will I be able to find out.
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There are two C of I Cathedrals in Dublin ... Christ Church and St Patricks. There is not a Catholic Cathedral but St Mary's parish church has been a temporary cathedral or co-cathedral of the diocese. As Wikipedia says Mary's Pro-Cathedral has been the seat of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland since the Reformation when the other Cathedrals in the city became part of the Church of Ireland.
It looks as though Margaret O'Sullivan was a member of the Catholic faith.
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Am I right in thinking that Mags was under the impression that Pro- was an abbreviation for Protestant?
Peter.
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Thanks Christopher, lol I get more confused the more I learn, lol
it's very nice of you to try to help.
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Hi Peter, no I wasn't under that impression lol, but I thought it
was an all faiths Cathedral, so I will just now think it was my grandmothers local church at the time of her marriage.
Thanks for your interest and help.