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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: brionne on Sunday 27 January 08 16:18 GMT (UK)
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Consular Births 1941-1945
Where is NITEROI or something like it,overseas somewhere.
Twins Alexandra and Jean MacPherson. ref, 54-171
Any ideas please.
Brionne.
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Niteroi....is a city in Brazil does that help?
Tazzie
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Yes Tazzie,that could be correct.
I had asolutely no idea at all.
Many thanks you very quick in relpying.
Brionne.
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Hello, I am Manager of the Castle House Museum in Dunoon Scotland. One of my volunteer helpers said that it was a family story that a relative was a Miss Brazil. I decided to a quick search and discovered your posting. Her ancestors were MacPhersons linked with Dunoon for a good number of years. She is anxious for more information. Can you assist? She has agreed that I may enquire on her behalf.
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My original post, now well over seven years ago,was out of interest to find out where that place was.
I remember looking at MacPherson births generally, overseas during the war time years.1939/1945
As far as am aware this family is no connection to my own Macs,who originate from Bridge of Teith,Perthshire,unfortunately unable to get back further than early 1800.
Most interesting that replies have come up after so long.
Unable to contribute any constructive help Museum man,hopefully someone else can.
Brionne.
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Museum Man
If you haven't already done so, you could flick through the Miss World web site which list all the contestants and see if any Miss Brazil names ring a bell. Although of course she may not have reached that level of competition. I've had a quick look (purely in the interests of research of course) but nothing obvious.
maxD
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Jean or Gina Macpherson. This seems to be her. Born 1940/1941. Scottish Father and US Mother.
http://brazilianpop1957-1964.blogspot.com/2012/04/1960.html
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Good spot barryd, hadn't looked at Miss Universe (or at least that's my story).
maxD
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Born in the same place too, could well be a connection to the thread starter as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkxW3Ejc8pw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkxW3Ejc8pw)
Can't figure out a connection with WW2 though, apart from the dates "Consular Births 1941-1945"
Perhaps a post war Nazi fugitive was a competition judge.
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Catchy tune though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Que_%C3%89_Que_A_Baiana_Tem%3F
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Interesting stuff.
Will obtain the birth certificate and investigate further. Brionne
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Two identical births with same reference number found in Consular Births 1941/1945,also 1955/1960
Two separate names so definitely twins.Why would they be entered twice,1941/5 is handwritten image
Alexandra and Jean MacPherson.
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Per Quist,Can you explain your comment regarding a Nazi connection,do think that the name MacPherson was used by a Nazi post ww2 in South America.It has been proved that Nazi managed to get there by U Boat,one of which is believed to have had children on board.
Can you also explain why you think there may be a connection to myself.
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Just kidding about the Germans, and anyway Brazil fought on the side of the Allies in WW2, and the Germans favourite post war retirement area was mostly Argentina. Hadn't heard about any post war German U-boat visiting Brazil, and if it had of done chances are that the Brazilians would have welcomed it by sinking it.
I think that there's a reasonable chance that the lady may be connected to you because of the areas where she was born and lived, and after all Brazil is a huge country and there aren't likely to be a huge number of people in Brazil with that surname, so the location may well be more than just a coincidence.
People could travel from Britain to South America either via America, or direct to South America, and from the late 1800's up to the 1959 there were only around 61 people with that surname who travelled direct to Brazil from Britain. and up to 1952 there were only 42.
Two registrations for the same person ?, or rather 4 registrations for two twins, the handwritten entry is probably the clue.
For births within Britain, registrations in more recent years were listed by the month in which the registration was made, they used to be listed by one of the 4 quarters of the year. parents have 6 weeks in which to register a birth, and so under the quarterly registration system a birth registration could sometimes be made in either of two different quarters.
However, suppose for example that a registration for a child who was born late in the first quarter, and who's birth could therefore be registered in either the first or second quarter wasn't actually registered until the third quarter, what happens.?
Well no matter what the dates or circumstances are, the birth registration has to be registered and recorded in the correct quarter, so in the case of a late registration two registrations will be made, a typewritten one in the third quarter in which the registration was actually made, and a retrospective one in the quarter in which the registration should have been made, but because the registration indexes in the births registration ledger for the earlier quarter have already been typed up by then, the retrospective registration in the first quarter has to be made in the form of a handwritten addition to that ledger page.
There are other reasons why that can happen, such as an unmarried couple who wish to enter the father's surname on the birth certificate, or who later marry and want the father's surname to be added to the birth certificate and I can't recall if they can also have the mother's married surname and the parent's marital status added, or they want to change the child's forename, or they find an error on the original birth certificate/registration and want to have it corrected.
Actually some people can have 5 or more birth registrations but the authorities will know which one is the current one and only one birth certificate in respect of only one of the registrations will be issued for that person.
There is a time limit for such changes and beyond that the parent or parents will have to apply to the UK Registrar General for permission to apply to have such changes made, that is the official who is in charge of the relevant British registration department.
Without seeing the registration index ledger pages and the birth certificates it's impossible to be more specific about the reason for those two sets of registrations.
However, imagine a scenario such as this one.
In recent years the British law was changed in order to require British children to have their own passport, prior to that a British child up to an age which I can't recall, could be added to the passport of one of their parents.
It has never been a legal requirement for a British national who marries or has a child abroad to register those events via the local British diplomatic authorities.
Now imagine this scenario, a British person goes to Brazil and has a child and the child inherits a right to British nationality from the parent, but the parent only registers the birth with the local Brazilian authorities and doesn't also register it with the local British diplomatic authorities.
Ten years later the parent or parents apply for a passport for the child or to have it added to the passport of one of it's parents and they are told that the child isn't legally a British national because it's birth wasn't registered with the British authorities.
So the parents or parent applies for permission to have the birth registered and a typewritten registration is made in the 1950's birth index ledger and a retrospective handwritten entry is made in the 1940's birth index ledger.
Ten years is a big gap, and I suspect that the reason for the two entries for the same children was likely because the original birth wasn't registered with the British authorities, but only the documents or possibly an enquiry to the UK General Register office for England and Wales will be likely to sort that out accurately.
General enquiries certificate.services@gro.gsi.gov.uk
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/contact_us.asp (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/contact_us.asp)
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/)
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Goodness thank you for your lengthy detailed response.
Regards the twins birth registrations,they are both in British Consular Overseas Births identical details but ten tears apart.References from Find My Past. [Yes, I take on board that a parents name could have been added.]
Agree that this is not the correct board this post now.
Never had a passport myself until in my forties.was on my husbands ,when I applied after we split, I received one ok,but with an explanation that I qualified under the Commonwealth 1981 legislation believe, cannot remember exactly.Hence due to early memories of being on a large ocean liner,when a very small child during wartime,have been trying to sort this out for the past 30 years at least.
All family members in the know so to speak, are long gone.
Thanks for your interest.
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Have you checked British outbound ships passenger lists for the 1940's and 1950's, haven't looked in any detail but your two names are mentioned in your two time frames bound for Brazil.
Inbound passenger lists are also available, haven't looked at those at all.
Might just be a coincidence, but might be worth checking in more detail.
"Correct board" no big deal, at least not to me, and your thread has served it's purpose, might be worth asking for a bit of passenger list checking help on the immigration or travel sub forums or whatever they're called.
What specifically is it that you're trying to find in the context of this topic. ?
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Yep, your legislation is this stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen)
Consider yourself lucky, look at what they tried to do to this guy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2197363/The-fury-7-7-bombing-victim-Why-facing-deportation.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2197363/The-fury-7-7-bombing-victim-Why-facing-deportation.html)
What people really need is an Irish granny or granddad, then they're sorted, because they'll also have Irish nationality, no matter where they were born.
Same thing happened to the British Comedian Spike Milligan, he fought it for years and eventually got hacked off and went Irish. http://www.britannica.com/biography/Spike-Milligan (http://www.britannica.com/biography/Spike-Milligan)
http://www.spikemilliganlegacy.com/citizen4.htm (http://www.spikemilliganlegacy.com/citizen4.htm)
Novel way to treat a WW2 veteran.
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Many thanks again,yes I did know about the Irish grand parent factor.my GF John MacPherson was born at Cork Barracks 1877,his father Thomas b 1836 Stirling Scotland was in Royal Engineers,QMSergt,stationed at Fort Camden drowned Kinsale 1887. John was put into RE as well after parents both died.He later joined up again into the Royal Flying Corps at Stonehenge during ww1,and survived.
Clever guy,built houses in Portsmouth 1930s.
Yes am lucky,doubt if can ever sort out my war time memories,but thanks for your time.
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Whoa, you need to try to avoid some of those acres of white space at the bottom of your post.
Thought that perhaps your grandfather might have been enrolled in the Royal Hibernian Military School in Kilmainham in Dublin, http://www.richardgilbert.ca/achart/public_html/articles/hibernian/index.html (http://www.richardgilbert.ca/achart/public_html/articles/hibernian/index.html) but he isn't listed.
The RFC was created in May 1912 and the Army branch of the RFC was formed from the Air Battalion of the Royal Engineers which was created in April 1911 and that was formed from staff of the Royal Engineers School of Ballooning which had been formed in 1888.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Ballooning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Ballooning)
The Air battalion had two Companies, No 1 Company operated airships and No 2 Company operated aircraft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Battalion_Royal_Engineers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Battalion_Royal_Engineers)
No 2 Company was based at Larkhill on Salisbury Plain which is probably your Stonehenge, because they're only about a mile apart.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ggi/
Unless you have military records that say otherwise, perhaps he was still serving in the R.E. and transferred into the RFC in WW1, and if he had done that, he would have been issued with a new Regimental number in the RFC, and given his dates, he might also have served in the Second Boer War.
When the RAF was formed on 1st April 1918 all of the RFC servicemen were transferred to the RAF and they retained their RFC regimental numbers in the RAF, and it looks like this is him in the RAF in April 1918...John Macpherson born 1877 in Cork attestation year in respect of the RAF 1916 number 220145 occupation Joiner & Sawyer.
How did we get from Brazil in WW2 to Stonehenge in WW1. ? :)
Weirdly curious coincidence, there's just been an ad on the radio for a TV programme later today about Stonehenge. !
Catch you later, I've got to go and try to figure out how to pee into a plastic tube less than half an inch wide.
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Unsure as to how the white space came about.
John McPherson bought himself out of the RE in 1899 for 18 quid then married in Wilton Wiltshire.
Yes,he did attend the Royal Hibernian School in Dublin,family photos prove this.
Thanks will draw a halt to this now,my war time memories play no part in these years.
Many thanks Brionne
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Museum Man have sent you a PM, as some information has come to light,thanks Brionne.
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Having started this post some time ago,will now finish it off.
Found an In Bound Passenger Record in New York, on Family Search, which confirms who these girls Jean and Alexandra actually are.
Passengers disembarked on the SS.Brazil from Santos left May 3rd 1950.includes,
John Gibb MacPherson British.
with Ruth,,,, Dorothy,Jean, Alexandra.
Hope this info helps the descendants of the MacPherson family in Scotland,who posted on here.
As this image is available for anyone to view on FS i have not posted any address or ages.