RootsChat.Com

Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: donnellysearch on Saturday 26 January 08 16:44 GMT (UK)

Title: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Saturday 26 January 08 16:44 GMT (UK)

Hi, I have come to a wall with my search any advice or help appreciated. I am looking for

James Donnelly birth date unknown parents unknown Harbor Laborer
married to
Rachel Donnelly birth and parentage unknown
on 01/10/1860 at hutchesontown district Glasgow

.

We have managed to find a birth certificate for their son (James) at that time 4yrs later they were residing at 60 Centre Street Tradeston Glasgow.

Marriage details we hope may provide us with something we can continue with  probably then taking us over the water to Ireland.

Thankyou
Jenny

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 16:55 GMT (UK)

Hi Jenny

Welcome to Rootschat  :)

First, have you found the family in any of the censuses 1861-1901?

Also, have you used the wild card feature for searching on the Scotland's People site. They might be indexed wrongly. They are on the IGI.

If you can't find a marriage, have you checked for their deaths? If in Scotland, these should give the names of their parents.

I'll have a quick look for a marriage or you  :)

Regards

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:01 GMT (UK)

The marriage record is on the Scotland's People site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.

They are indexed as Donelly. You can view the image of the cert and download it for 6 units (£1.20). This will give you their ages and parents' names.

1860 James Donelly and Rachel Donelly, Huchesontown, 644/10 Page 193.

Gadget  :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:05 GMT (UK)

James was aged 24 or 34* when they married. His parents were Arthur Donnelly, farmer and Catherine, nee Murray

Rachel was 22. Her parents were Hugh Donnelly, a cotton factory worker and Agnes, nee what looks like Williamson (deceased).

Gadget  :)

*very poor image

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Saturday 26 January 08 17:09 GMT (UK)

Hi Gadget, I have tried The census and death registers but as all the information we have on James or Rachel is their date of marriage we can only approximate all other details. I apologise that in a long line of James Christian names i made an errror in my post their son was infact named William we have his birth Marriage and Death certifactes which is where we obtained what we Know on his parents.

As to Scotlands people search i'm uncertain what you mean by "wildcard" I have tried the soundex search and all names beginning with this letter.

Thanks so much
Jenny

Wow what criteria did you enter to get that result sorry for the all the above you worked quicker than i could type a reply.

Thankyou sooo Much
Jenny

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:16 GMT (UK)

Hi Jenny  :)

On the 1861:

22 Eglington Street, Govan

District 644/9 ED53 Page 10

Jas Donelly, 22, Harbour labourer, b.Ireland
Racehl, 25, b. Ireland

I'll check ont the 1871 - their ages look a wee bit strange.

I searched on Don*l*y for the marriage  :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Saturday 26 January 08 17:19 GMT (UK)

The family in 1881.

Address: 6 Blackburn St, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
James Donnely, m, head, 42, quay labourer, Ireland
Rachel ", f, wife, 41, -, Ireland
William ", m, son, 17, riveter's boy, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Annie ", f, dau., 14, confectioner girl, Glasgow, Lanarkshire

hume24 :)

Gadget was posting at the same time. :-[

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:22 GMT (UK)

Rachel dies in 1910, aged 72.  She was a widow then. Parents - as before but a slight change of mothe's name - Annie, nee McWilliams.

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Saturday 26 January 08 17:31 GMT (UK)

I'm stunned at your responses We have a million things to find and leads to follow now. Thank you

As the experts you obviously are how would you advise we approach the irish part of this search as we assume they came over by cattle boat. Is their an Irish version of scotlands people you would reccommend?

You really are wonderful for helping

Thankyou
Jenny

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Saturday 26 January 08 17:31 GMT (UK)

1871 from Ancestry. They decided Robert was a much nicer name than Rachel. ::)

Address: 79 Commerce St, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
James Donnley, m, head, 33, warbom [harbour?] labourer, Ireland
Robert [Rachel] ", f, wife, 30, -, Ireland
Kate ", f, dau., 9, scholar, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
William ", m, son, 5, scholar, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Annie ", f, dau., 4, -, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Charles McKinna, m, lodger, 34, shoe hower, Ireland

hume24 :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:34 GMT (UK)

Jenny  :)

Ireland is not my territory  I know it's difficult, especially if you don't have a county :-\

I wonder if the 1891 or 1901 will have place of birth?

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Saturday 26 January 08 17:38 GMT (UK)

Hi Jenny,

Just saw your posting there. On the International Genealogical Index (the IGI), there are two "submitted" entries for children to Hugh Donnelly and Anne McWilliams (the names given for Rachel's parents in 1910). These are both in the county of Londonderry, Ireland, so that may be a good place to start your search.

As for James' family, there is a submitted entry for a brother, Peter, showing as marrying in Glasgow in 1855 to Ann Kane. This was the first year of registration in Scotland and where more information was given than any other year following. The certificate may give you a lead for this branch of your family's location in Ireland.

Link to the IGI (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true)

Hope this helps.
hume24 :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:46 GMT (UK)

Oh well done, Hume  :D

Those are good leads. I'm on my slow Highland connection and it's getting bogged down  :-\

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Saturday 26 January 08 17:52 GMT (UK)

Thanks I'll start at IGI now  :D ;D :D

I have struggled along to this point and im overwhelmed by how much you have both been able to find.

Thank you

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Saturday 26 January 08 17:55 GMT (UK)

I hope you enjoy finding all those names and dates, especially with Irish connections. ;D

I've looked at the Hugh/Ann possibilities again and while the names are correct, it may prove to be the wrong couple. There's an entry for a marriage in 1850 - well after Rachel's birth - and another two children in 1852 and 1854. Of course, these are submitted and could be incorrect. :-\

hume24

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 17:58 GMT (UK)

Given that Rachel's father was a cotton factory worker, it would be worth concentrating in those areas - or they came over and he worked in Glasgow - maybe he was in Linen in Ireland.

Just a thought  :-\

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 18:11 GMT (UK)

Rachel is possibly showing on the 1851:

Gorbals - 22 Egglington Street:
644/2 Ed 2C Page 14

Hugh Donnelly, 40, weaver, b. Ireland
Catherine, 50, b. Ireland
Rachel, 16, winder, b. Ireland


It might be worth following them through to check.

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Saturday 26 January 08 18:15 GMT (UK)

Good one, Gadget. ;D

1861:

Address: 22 Eglinton St, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Hugh Donelly, m, head, 55, hand loom weaver, Ireland
Catherine ", f, wife, 55, -, Ireland
Jas McConnell, m, grandson, 9, -, Glasgow, Lanarkshire

1871:

Address: 90 Commerce St, Glasgow, Lanarkshire (just down the road from James and Rachel!)
Hugh Donnelly, m, head, 60, weaver, Ireland
Catherine ", f, wife, 60, -, Ireland

Hugh and Catherine aren't showing in 1881, so possibly deaths between those dates?

hume24

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 18:32 GMT (UK)

Could be that Annie was the first wife and died  :-\

Both families were living at the same address in 1861 - Glasgow tenements  :-\

Gadget 

Ps - I'll have a look for Hugh's death  :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 18:39 GMT (UK)

Right family  :D
Kinning Park

Hugh dies 19 Feb 1876, aged 66. Hand Loom weaver. Widower of 1st Nancy McWilliam, 2nd Catherine Dunnard

Parents - William Donnelly, hand loom weaver, deceased - No mother given  :(

Informant - James Donnelly, stepson

Gadget  :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Saturday 26 January 08 19:02 GMT (UK)

I'm glad that was the correct Hugh. :) However, it looks as though those entries I referred to earlier are not the right ones. :( Pity there was no mother's name on Hugh's death certificate - it would have been useful to track his POB in Ireland.

Well done, Gadget, for finding that line.

hume24

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 26 January 08 19:05 GMT (UK)

There might be some other info  and on James' family - maybe the 1841  :-\

I'll do some more checks later - got to go off for a while.

Gadget  :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Sunday 27 January 08 20:16 GMT (UK)

Thanks to you both, we have spent the last day trying to find records for these parents but every which way was a dead end.
We are pleased to have found James and Rachel and at least know that they were the ones to travel from Ireland but it seems that the Irish records are so fragmented that unless you can obtain solid information and dates and the location right down to which parish church it's kinda like a needle in a haystack search.

We don't know if Arthur and Catherine came to Glasgow but thats where were going with it now. In the hope that if we can find Arthur or James death certificates we may be able to obtain a county to start from.

We are going to visit the addresses we have found in Glasgow to try and work out which would have been the local Catholic cemeteries and visit the records office in hope of finding something unpublished on Scotlands people.

again thanks for you help

Jenny

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 27 January 08 20:59 GMT (UK)

Hi Jenny

I'm off for a couple of days after this evening so won't be able to do anymore looking for a while.

Good luck with your searches.

I think SP will be putting up various death records and RC records on site eventually.

Regards

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Monday 28 January 08 00:45 GMT (UK)

Quote from: donnellysearch on Sunday 27 January 08 20:16 GMT (UK)

We don't know if Arthur and Catherine came to Glasgow but thats where were going with it now. In the hope that if we can find Arthur or James death certificates we may be able to obtain a county to start from.

Unfortunately, if Arthur did come over from Ireland, it's unlikely that his birthplace would be given on his death certificate. It should be the same with James also. :( However, there is another line to query. I mentioned a Peter Donnolly marrying to an Ann Kane, giving the same parents as James. This was in Glasgow 1855. The certificate should give the location in Ireland; however, it may depend on how much information the registrar asked! ;)

Hope this helps.
hume24

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Monday 28 January 08 01:16 GMT (UK)

Hume I found that record with your help but I feel pretty dumb admitting I can't see how to obtain a copy of the information held on film. The IGI site isn't quite as easy as the scotlandspeople site. It says the form may have the name and address of the persons who submitted it to obtain the form I need the batch numbers etc but then what? Sorry it's probably easy but I just don't see what I need to do here. 

Also is there a way to use wildcards there?
 How did you manage to find that file so quickly. I must improve my technique or I'm gonna be high n dry lol.

Thanks Jenny

by the way I got some assistance from the Irish side of this site with a good site for searching the Griffiths Valuation for Ireland but unfortunately there are 35 Arthur's and 41 Hugh's who owned land at that time and it provides no further identifying information for narrowing it down any, but once we do find out where it may be of help then.

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Monday 28 January 08 01:26 GMT (UK)

Hi Jenny,

You will be able to get the 1855 certificate on ScotlandsPeople. Just enter the two names (Peter Donnolly and Ann Kane) and there should be only 1 match. After that, it's just viewing the results page (which should confirm date and location) and then purchasing the certificate. I'm hoping it gives you the information you need! ;D

As far as I know, there's no way to use wildcards on the IGI. It simply uses a soundex so it's always best to try lots of variants. You can also enter just the parents' names and the country to find all children listed to the names, either extracted from the actual records or submitted.

hume24

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Monday 28 January 08 04:02 GMT (UK)

Giz a kiss You BEAUTY :-*

Birthplace Derry 1834

Ann's mothers nee name was Donnelly too but ann was born in Glasgow I can't make out her Fathers Christian name.

Oh WOW thats brill

thanks hughe I did try on their several times but they have his surname spelt donnolly not donnelly

Superb

Derry LOL

thanks

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Monday 28 January 08 04:20 GMT (UK)

Sorry that was typed quickly because i was soooo pleased to have that that i go giving you a new name.
humble apologies

Jenny  ;D

oh i'd value your opinion on the text if you have any its a little hard to read in places

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Monday 28 January 08 08:36 GMT (UK)

Hi Jenny

Glad you got that cert  :)

It's definitely the same parents but this one has Arthur as a labourer::)

You'd better get looking in Derry  :D

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: tidybooks on Monday 28 January 08 15:20 GMT (UK)

Hi Donnelly and all,

Had a look at the marriage lines, and I don't think the mothers maiden name is Donnelly, I zoomed in and it is not like the 2 Donnelly's written in husband's side. On the husbands side, you can see swirls before making the D however on mothers maiden name, there is no swirl there and it looks like a B to me. I cannot think what name could be, something like Broadley.

Tom

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Monday 28 January 08 16:57 GMT (UK)

I'm not sure her mother maiden's name is Donnelly either. I'd agree with Tom and say either Broadley/Bradley. Ann's father name looks like Peter too. :)

Glad you got the certificate.

hume24

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Monday 28 January 08 18:16 GMT (UK)

Yes Gadget been up all night doin just that somebody in irishroots found an extract of a will Possibly our arthur Londonderry 1885 making him roughly 70 i'll need to send off for it tho. There are 2 Arthurs on the the entire griffiths valuation for derry so they are possabilities too. I've emailed 2 dozen GenesReunited members looking for him so he'll turn up eventually. I'd be happy with what we have if it never goes further. My goal was to find out where we came from. That we got and a load more. I was reading a site about life in the cotton factories and how rough it was for kids back then and although you only know a few details about them it feels like we've gotten to know them.


Thanks Guys

Jenny
 

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Monday 28 January 08 18:20 GMT (UK)

hmm Broadley I've seen that name somewhere before.
it'll come back to me i definatley lookinto that Tom thanks so we think that's Peter Kane?

hmm good more sp searches then   :D

Jen

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Monday 28 January 08 19:59 GMT (UK)

Any geusses what Peter Kanes occupation is there. D P painter Dailer

Does anybody use any sort of software to make these more legibile that i could try to get my hands on?

Jenny

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: hume on Monday 28 January 08 23:40 GMT (UK)

Looks like dealer to me.

If you don't think the image is clear enough, ScotlandsPeople are always more than happy to supply a better scan of certificates. :) I do it through using a contact form on their website and usually get a reply within 2-3 days.

hume24 :)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 01:38 GMT (UK)

Thnks Hulme my sights not all that great for this kind of work.

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 17:02 GMT (UK)

Here are a couple of views - poss and negative of that maiden surname.

Been travelling down from Inverness today so have missed all the fun.

I'll put up the occupation next  :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 17:10 GMT (UK)

Peter's occupation is Dealer as Hume says  - see the D in Donnelly -

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 21:45 GMT (UK)

hmm yeah definately a Dealer unsure about the surname tho looks like barrdly or borrdly is that even a name?

thanks for those Gadget the negative definately makes it easier.

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 22:14 GMT (UK)

Negs do usually show things up better if in doubt  :)

Thast surname is a B though  ::)  It ends in 'adly'

Maybe worth finding Ann Donnelly nee Kane's death cert to see if that is clearer  ???

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 22:18 GMT (UK)

Looks like she died 1860 - mother's surname Bradley.

I'll send the cert through the usual channels  :)

Gadget

PS - Peter, her father is given as 'hawker of small wares'

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 22:31 GMT (UK)

A stall on the Barrowes market maybe? that sort of thing
 That's briiliant i tried and failed finding  that certificate, I did find birth dates for James and Rachels Other children on igi but the certificates are elluding me there too Catherine was born 24/06/61 and Annie on 31/10/66 :)


thanks Gadget i'll look fwd to that arriving

Jenny

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 22:42 GMT (UK)

One thing is to not specify too much on SP. I use D*n*l*y and just the first letter  of first name with a very wide birth date :)

I can usually find most people, if they're there with 1 unit.

Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 23:01 GMT (UK)

off on a tangent scouring IGI whenever I look for Nancy I get Annie is there a pet name thing here i'm unfamilar with like Catherine and Katie?

lol 1 credit it takes me at least 5 to see why my results aren't giving me what I want.

You two certainly have a talent for this if it's not a profession for you it should be.

:)

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 23:11 GMT (UK)

Annie and Agnes - Nancy

Catherine - Kate, Katie, Kath(e)rine, Cath(e)rine

I think, with Catherine, I'd use surnames, female and birth date  :-\

This site might help:

http://www.whatsinaname.net/



Gadget

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 23:17 GMT (UK)

ohh Gadget Ann Died Thats so sad they were only married 5 yrs  :'(

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 29 January 08 23:21 GMT (UK)

Very sad - it says disease of heart for some time. it does give her [place of burial though  :-\

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 23:30 GMT (UK)

we were just googling to see if we could make sense of the name but from my record todate i probably have it all wrong we found dalbeth now St. Peters but it seems the old parts are no access and very overgrown. It would be nice to see who else was buried with her later.

your a star Gadget thankyou

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: donnellysearch on Tuesday 29 January 08 23:38 GMT (UK)

tut at me being all narrow minded glasgow archives may have those details

Title: Re: Donnelly marries Donnelly 1860 Glasgow
Post by: california dreamin on Wednesday 29 April 20 21:13 BST (UK)

Hello donnellysearch!

I know this is a very old thread ...are you still searching?  I may have some answers  ::)

CD