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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Rupert96 on Thursday 24 January 08 09:18 GMT (UK)
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Not sure if I have picked the right area for this topic.
I'm hoping someone can tell me the attached birth certificate for Emma Jane MANN her father's christian name.
I have manipulated the document many times but I would like an unbiased opinion of what others can see.
Appreciate any input
Cheers
Rupert
Moderator comment: Sorry, only small portions of certificates can be posted to help make out the writing. Please see the Copyright Policy (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php) for further information.
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Rupert, Could it be William?
Dee
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Hi Rupert,
I'd say William as well but it would be useful if you could scan the document at a higher resolution and repost the relevant bit :)
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Hi Dee & Tati
Hoping this attachment shows more detail.
Please let me know if I should alter more.
Cheers
Rupert
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Hello Rupert
I would also plump for William.
A warm welcome to Rootschat........ :)
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Looks like Wilburn to me now :P
I think I can see her in 1851 as Jane Mann* - do you already have the details? What's Jane's maiden name?
*Dad's name looks like Milburn there.
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His name looks like Milburn on several census.
Death:
Milburn Mann age 72
Mar 1903 Tetbury 6a 256
Marriage:
Melburne Mann - Jane Plaster
Jun 1845 Tetbury 11 593
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Well Tati now you have told us that I can quite see how it
might be Milburn ::) ::)
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The two first letters - first name and surname - look the same except for the upward stroke of the first name and there is a little curl just before it - so Milburn looks good :)
Gadget
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Just found him with a ?sister? Salome on the 1841 census 8) Love that name 8) Shout if you want details, Rupert :D
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Hi Tati
"Your too cheeky"
When I had my sunglasses on today I thought it was William but when I started munipulating the document you can see the 4th letter is a "B" also check how the 1st letter starts but then has a gap.
The reason I asked is that her birth certificate says her mother is Jane Barnfield and we have always known her to be Jane Plaster (Plaister).
Her marriage certificate also has her father as Milburn Mann.
Maybe Jane Barnfield died and then Milburn married Jane Plaster in 1845.
Cheers
Rupert
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Mystère! There doesn't seem to be another marriage for Milburn, nor a death for Jane #1 in Tetbury :P
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It's almost like why did I buy this blooming birth certificate.
Can't find a marriage for MANN/BANFIELD.
I do have marriage for MANN/PLASTER.
Reason being is everyone thought Emma Jane Mann may of been christened Jane Plaster in 1845 by mother Jane Plaster.
Cheers
Rupert
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Have you noticed that Jane (at least as far as I can make it out) isn't called Jane Mann formerly Barnfield but just Jane Barnfield ???
(I see Emma Jane's birth is indexed as both Mann and Barnfield anyway but you probably know that already)
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Don't know if this will help any, but there is a Jane Barnfield in same area, age 13 mistranscribed as Banfield, father William.
1841 - HO107; Piece 362; Book: 11; Civil Parish: Tetbury
Cas
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Perhaps you need to look at Plaster/Barnfield marriages? There is a Jane Plaster, 16, with possible mother Elizabeth in 1841, and also a Henry Plaster/Plaister whose parents on the IGI are William and Elizabeth. I think Jane is on the IGI indexed as 'Haister'. William Plaster m. Elizabeth Bunting.
... on www.a2a.org.uk, there is a mention of a Richard "Bunting alias Barnfield", in Tetbury. (This isn't making things less complex, is it?)
I was wondering why I couldn't find this family on 1861/71/81, and then I saw this:
http://www.immigrantships.net/v5/1800v5/chance18600713.html
- Jane/Emma Jane doesn't go with them? They left in April and she married in December quarter. I see she also has a daughter Emily A. Mann with her in 1861 (it seems they came to NSW later).
Births of six more children to Meilburn are listed in the NSW birth index, as well as children of Emma Jane (m. John Harris). Also, several deaths and marriages for the family. The spelling of Milburn/Melbourne/etc's name changes a lot.
So, the question really seems to be: was the Jane who was the mother of Emma - Jane Plaster who later married her father (16 in 1841) - or was she Jane Barnfield (aged 13 in 1841) and Emma's father happened to marry another Jane.
I am not sure that Jane aged 13 in 1841 is actually the daughter of William and Weltham, incidentally - they seem too old, and IGI shows they had another daughter Jane, ten years older, who married in 1838. She might be their granddaughter or some other relative. This Jane doesn't appear to have married in Tetbury - so what happened to her?
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Don't you think Milburn is a wee bit young to be getting married in 1845?
death 1903 aged 72, makes him b about 1830?
Must be a mistake somewhere. The plot thickens.
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He was 15 in 1841 and 25 in 1851 - probably more accurate :)
(and the 1860 Ship list shows him as 34)
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Yes of course. Never was any good at 'taking away' even at darts!
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Maybe he isn't even the guy who dies in 1903? ???
Jorose 8) - you seem to know everything about Milbourn - did he ever come back? :P
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Thanks heaps for all the advice.
Yes Milburn & Jane Mann with their children came out to Australia in 1860.
Their daughter Emma Jane Mann came out to Australia in 1876 with husband John Harris & children.
Milburn and Jane also returned to England, they both died in Tetbury. 1893 & 1903.
This one is certainly a mystery, I could not find a marriage for MANN/BARNFIELD on (Free BMD). In 1841 Milburn is living with his parents & siblings.
The question is did he marry after 1841 have a child in 1843 then remarry in 1845.
Would marriages back then still be in the process of being transcribed??
Cheers
Rupert
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The link "jorose" mentions http://www.a2a.org.uk/
re Bunting alias Barnfield.
Jane Plaister (Plaster) parents are William Plaister & Elizabeth Bunting.
Perhaps these two Jane's (Plaister & Barnfield) are the same person.???
Interestingly the same year and qtr as Milburn's marriage to Jane Plaster, there is also a James Barnfield. (No scan to check whether transcribed correctly).
Cheers
Rupert
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It would be interesting to see how he lists himself on the marriage certificate - bachelor or widower?
I suspect Jane Barnfield and Jane Plaster are different:
In 1841, there are three teenagers on the Tetbury census:
Jane Barnfield, 13, living with William Barnfield and Weltham nee Bird at Frog Lane. Probably their granddaughter or niece, as they had an older daughter Jane who m. Enoch Hobbs and is on the 1841 census with him elsewhere in Gloucestershire
Milburn Mann, 16, living on Harper St. with his family.
Jane Plaster/Plaister, 15, living on Harper St. with her mother Eliza.
In 1843, Emma Jane Mann is born to Milburn and Jane Barnfield
In May 1845, a child Jane Plaister, illegitimate to Jane Plaister, is christened in Tetsbury (original of this would be interesting to see!)
On 29 June 1845, Jane Plaster and Milburn Mann marry. They were both 19.
There seems to be no marriage/death for Jane Barnfield in Tetsbury, nor any trace of the Jane Plaister/Plaster who was christened just before the marriage. ???
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I agree with Jorose and am of the same logic. There are 2 Jane's, one he married. Also thought Jane Barnfield could be poss. grandchild to the couple in 1841.
Tati found Emma Jane b 1843 registered as Mann & Barnfield. So she is/was the child of this couple the birth cert states this.
Do you think it possible that the child on 1851 is the Jane Plaster/Plaister child of this couple (or wife Jane) that Jorose found, and not Emma Jane at all, she is always called Jane on census?
Perhaps Emma Jane and mother Jane (nee) Barnfield are seperate on 1851 census ?
Just my thoughts...
Cas
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Family notes have always suggested that the illegitimate child Jane Plaister christened in 1845 was Emma Jane Mann, taking on her mother's husband surname when Jane married.
I always had a question mark next to this theory. It was said perhaps she added Emma to Jane as her mother was also named Jane.
Though Emma Jane Mann's marriage certificate states her father is Milburn Mann.
Rupert
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Hello Rupert....hopefully we are trying to help and not throw up any more of a puzzle.
If Emma Jane was registered in 1843 under Mann & Barnfield the father would have surely had to be present, they only registered illegit children in that era if father was present to give name, as far as I am aware?
If the christening two years later had her as Jane Plaster, she already had her fathers' name on her birth cert as Mann. You also know the parentage of Jane Plaster (mother)
Do you have Emma Jane married as 'Emma' Jane or Jane Mann? also the marriage cert for Milburn and Jane Plaster? perhaps we can gleen clues from witness or fathers' names?
Hoping to help
Cas
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Hi Cas
Have attached marriage certificates for Milburn Mann & Jane Plaister also John Harris & Emma Jane Mann.
Let me know what you think, perhaps you can see something I have missed.
Cheers
Rupert
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Hi Rupert, the mods, under copyright need to remove the full cert....check the original birth cert above...
If you could work on individual certs, one at a time, with only partial pieces that would be ok, please can you scan so the piece is readable? Just as you did near, in beginning of your thread. Or possibly post all info from certs?
Don't know if we can sort this, but a few heads are better than one.... :)
Cas
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Hi Cas
Sorry was not aware of Copyright.
Have scanned names only.
Emma Jane Mann & John Harris (also parents names)
Rupert
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Hi Cas
This one for Milburn Mann & Jane Plaister (also fathers names).
Hope these are readable
Rupert
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So....it seems we have Marriage, Emma Jane Mann, age 17, (1843) father Milburn, as birth cert.
Possibility...only spec....Jane Barnfield, raised by grandparents, had no way of bringing up a child at young age, Milburn (father) & family took the child as theirs, and was Emma 'JANE' Mann ??? Or there is some connection between Barnfield & Plaster that cannot be seen as yet ???
IGI extract record
JANE PLAISTER Christening: 13 MAY 1845 Tetbury, Gloucester Mother: JANE PLAISTER
This could possibly be another Jane Plaster that does not belong in your family line ??? or is she, as jorose pointed out a possible dau of Milburn?
This does not help Rupert ??? Emma Jane...or Jane, (maybe the same person), mother not confirmed but father is Milburn.
Jorose...Tati.... jump in at any time.....
Cas
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Don't know if this will help but an email link to search for possible Plaster/Barnfield marriage, or info relating to BM for this thread, wish I could help more...
http://aztecrose.tripod.com/gloucestershire/index.html
Scroll to.........
Tetbury St. Mary Parish Registers
Christenings 1832-185O and 1875-1963
Marriages 1838-1976
hope this helps
Cas
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Hi Cas
Thanks for the link.
Have sent them an email with my Barnfield/Plaster request.
Will let you know the outcome when I hear from them.
Cheers
Rupert
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Hi, just came across this thread. I am looking at my husband's family tree. He is the ggg grandson of Milburn Mann (Taree, Australia).
Still trying to make sense of it all but thought I would say 'hello' and register my interest.
Cheers,
Linley Harris
Perth, W Australia