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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Archivist_47 on Monday 21 January 08 11:11 GMT (UK)
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Arthur Henry Irwin (born 1893 Walthamstow, Essex, UK) married Izabelle Kelegian (born 1897 Diyabekir, Armenia) and moved to Australia where in 1920 they had maurice Graham Irwin in Victoria. Can anyone throw any more light on this family?
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In 1924 he is listed as Arthur Henry Irwin on the Electoral Roll.
He and Izabelle were at 52 Elgin St, Hawthorn, Victoria.
He is listed as a clerk, and she as Home Duties.
......dee
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1931 Electoral Roll has the couple both living in Laburnam St, Brighton, Victoria. But Arthur Henry is at number 16, and Izabelle number 27.
She is still listed as Home Duties, but he is now listed as a civil servant.
.......dee
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1936.....the last Electoral Roll available.....the couple are both at 27 Laburnam St, Brighton. Occupations the same.
Here's a death for an Arthur Henry Irwin but without knowing his parents' names it is difficult to know if it is him.....I'm posting it in case.....
Arthur Henry IRWIN died in 1982 at HEID
Father= Alfred & Mother = Anna Mari
Ref = 21169
(HEID = Heidelburg)
......dee
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Here's Izabelle's death....
Izabelle IRWIN aged 52 died in 1949 at MELB
Father = Anthony Kiligian and Mother = UNKNOWN Dirouhi
Ref = 11067
(MELB = Melbourne)
.....dee
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It looks like they had a daughter, as there is the following death.....
Denise Izabelle IRWIN died in 1984 in BALL
Father = Arthur Henry & Mother = Izabelle
Ref = 27401
(BALL = Ballarat)
.....dee
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There was an Inquest into the daughter Denise Isabelle's death, dated 2nd November, 1984. Reference number is 1654.
.....dee
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Hi,
Arthur Henry Irwin joined the Australian forces in ww1 and his record is digitised on the NAA site.
Included is a copy of his marriage certificate to Izabelle and particulars of address and family.
He was a labourer when he enlisted.
He fought at Galipoli and by 1967, the records show, he was TPI.
This means Totally Permanenly Incapacitated.
It is very interesting reading.
He applies after the war for a free passage to Aust for his wife and CHILD.
Sue
http://www.naa.gov.au
Search as a guest and put his full name in Keywords
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Also on NAA there is an index entry for
DENIS [sic] IZABELLE IRWIN.
He/she [I,m sure dee has confimed female!] was born 1922 in Hawthorn.
This enlistment is for ww2 and is not digitised. However, you can get a copy for a fee.
Sue
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Also on the ame site you will see this
Mr A. Irwin. Application for Passage from Egypt to Australia for Mother-in-law to Australia. It is dated 1922.
This is the year of the child's birth.
Armenia, where you say Izabelle was born, is in the Arab republic of Egypt.
It looks as if she was invited out to be with her daughter and grand children.
On the marriage certificate, dated 7/10/1916 it says her father, Antoine Keligian, was deceased, but no mention is made of the mother.
The full details of this document can be got too.
Sue
Izabelle was only 19 when she married .
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Sue and Archivist,
That's a most interesting file on the NAA website. It makes you appreciate again how lucky we are to have free access to such records.
......dee
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At http://www.awm.gov.au/find/index.asp there is also a digital image of Arthur Henry's Embarkation Roll page....gives his address in 1914.
I thought there might be Red Cross records as he was injured, but there are not.
.......dee
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Also on NAA there is an index entry for
DENIS [sic] IZABELLE IRWIN.
He/she [I,m sure dee has confimed female!] was born 1922 in Hawthorn.
This enlistment is for ww2 and is not digitised. However, you can get a copy for a fee.
Sue
On the WWII nominal role - same spelling - she is listed as an aircraftwoman - joined 30 dec 1942, discharged 7 Aug 1943
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/name.asp#searchtabs
And I do agree with Dee - our War Service records are so very good ( they were even better when free - sadly I hadn't found all my relatives records when they changed the rules :'( )
Trish
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At least all the WW1 Service records are still free, Trish, and a wonderful resource for us here in Australia, and for others researching from other parts of the world. :D :D
But like you.....I hadn't applied for all those I thought could be interesting before the rules changed. :'( :'(
.....dee
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Hi All,
What a great resource Australia has. What great news about Arthur Henry. My mother (Caloundra, QLD) was married to his son, Maurice Graham Irwin. Arthur Henry's parents were Alfred (born 1887 in Hackney, London) and Anne M ? (born 1856 Bethnal Green, London). It's great see some progress on Maurice's mother Izabelle Kiligian. Thank you very much for all your kind help.
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http://www.naa.gov.au
Search as a guest and put his full name in Keywords
Nothing is revealed here! Am I doing it wrong or what?
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You need to find the search option
Collection/record search - this is the direct link to the search
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch.aspx
Then select the option - search now - as a guest user
A new window will open & you can put your name in the "keywords" item
Trish
Sometimes late in the evenings (oz time) it may not work as they system may be down for updates etc - but it is working for me at the minute
12.42 am Qld time (1.42 am NSW) - I found 7 hits for arthur henry irwin & this is presumably the one you want
IRWIN Arthur Henry : Service Number - 111 : Place of Birth - Hemel Hempsted England : Place of Enlistment - Broadmeadows VIC : Next of Kin - (Father) IRWIN Alfred Click on the "View digital copy" next to this item and another window will open with the digitised WWI file (53 pages)
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Yes, do as Trish says, and remember to put his name in to the keywords as Trish has written it....
Irwin Arthur Henry and then select the option to search as a phrase.
This should take you to a direct hit.
.......dee
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Hi,
Hope by now you have enjoyed the wonderful records on the NAA website.
I just wanted to add a tiny line in case you did not know.
In reply #3 where dee has found Arthur's death for you it, it says he died at Heid. This is an abbreviation for the suburb of Heidleberg.
I am making and informed guess here when I say that he most likely died as a patient at The Heidlberg Repatriation Hospital located there and was not necessarily a resident of the suburb.
This hospital was set up after ww2 specifically for the medical care of returned soldiers, both men and women It was huge. Of course veterans of all the wars were included as entitled patients.
There was no costs involved for the patients and the undertaking of their care was part of the government's recruitment 'promise'.
We often see Heid. as place of death and I think some people wonder why thier ancestor suddenly moved to that area.!
Anyhow, I just thought I would mention it.
Sue
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Hello,
I'm hoping that you are still connected to this site, and following the search.
My Grandfather Harry Powis had some connection with Arthur and Isabbelle, though what I'm not quite sure at the moment, and was hoping that a family member might be able to help.
I only have my Grandfathers war records to go on so far, he was 996 in the AIF, first of the 8th Batt, then briefly the 60th, then finished his time in the 59th Batt.
He was also born England, Hackney(so he says) but as of yet have been unable to find him, or his family in any census!He was also a clerk.
He also joined the 8th Batt, and sailed at the same time, so presumaly they mightb have know each other.
At the moment I'm trying to trace Harry after he returned to Australia in 1920, he too married while back in England, and also had a family, but due to complicated circumstances, they never returned to Australia with him, and all contact was lost, my mothe and her siblings grew up thinking he's died in the war.
I've found my Harry in 1925 at 16 Laburnham St Melbourne living with Arthur and Issabelle
1926 Arthur and Harry are still at no 16, but no Isabbelle
1927 Arthur and Henry are still at no 16, but Isabelle is at no 27
1928 Arthur is at 16 still, Harry and Isabelle are at no 27?
1931 Arthur is at no 16, Harry and Isabelle no 27!
I haven't found Harry again until 1935, where he's living now at 408 william street, and is there in 1936, haven't looked for Isabelle yet.
1937 Harry smoved to 432 Lonsdale st (again haven'yt looked for Isabelle)
Haven't found him until
1943-1954 he's living at 317 Beaconsfield Parade.
So presumably Harry knew Arthur when he moved in to live with them? Not sure what to make of the move to no 27 where Isabelle moved to previously.
Would love to hear from anyone that knew of stories or knowledge of him, as i know absolutely nothing at all.
Though i have to say that the fact that he's moved in with another solier that he'd served with makes me more confident that this Harry is in fact my Grandfather.
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Welcome to Rootschat, Sue. :)
Although Archivist_47 hasn't been on Roottschat for a while, an email should arrive notifying of your post, so hopefully you'll get a response.
I have found two Victorian deaths which may be of help to you. I suspect that the first one, with parents unknown, may be your Harry POWIS, as you say you can see him in 1954. However, I'm posting them both.
Harold POWIS aged 75 (parents unknown) died in MELB in 1957.
Ref = 12614
Harry POWIS aged 71 died in BLEIGH in 1948.
Parents = Edw POWIS & Mary TUCKETT
Ref = 5176
Digital images of Victorian certifcates can be ordered and downloaded instantly from
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA2574F700805DE7/HomePage?ReadForm&1=Home~&2=~&3=~
Cost is about $17.50 AUD.
What you get on Victorian death certificates is usually far more information than you do on an English certificate. However, if your Harry was the Harold with parents unknown, this may not be the case.
The following link has information on what is contained on various Australian BDM certificates.......
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Hope this helps a bit,
Dee :)
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Hello Dee, thank you for your answer.
The first one i believe is my Harry, i have both certificates, and his, I'm almost sure is the first one, but unfortunately none of the details help me trace his family.
I'm waiting for some more details that thats being held on him for i believe aftercare that he had when he returned to Australia. That might definately tie him in as mine.
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I assume you have early info for him in UK? I note his mother's address in Chingford is on the war service docs.
There is a Harry POWIS reg Islington June qr 1887 which is fairlyy near the date given on his War records - and quite a few possible Henrys.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Cheers, Judith
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Hi judith, it gets so very complicated!!!...
I have that birth cert, and it's not Harry, is fathers name is wrong, and that Harry dies aged 2.
I'm still trying to track down who lived at that address in 1914, I have it in the 1911 census, and there's a coats family there, and a widow, and a housekeeper, no one named Powis.
I also can't find an Edward John Powis at all, let alone one that's a metal buyer, i have a few death certs, but none are right.
the family story goes a bit like this.
Harry Powis , though boen in the UK, joined the AIF in Australia in 1914, he founght in Gallipoli, and France, received a GSW in Frmelle, ended up back in the UK , recovering I assume. At some stage he came here to Weymouth, dorset, met my Grandmother Nellie. She was already married, and had a child.
Nellie and Harry went on to have an afair, Nellies husband sued for divorce, so Nellie moved in with her mother, literally round the corner from where I live now! How odd is that? I never knew for ages, until my Mum told me one day.
Nellie and Harry married in 1914, had another child, who may or maynot have been Harrys, or her first husbands, then had my Mum. 1920, and Harry returns to Australia, and Nellie and the children are supposed to follow, but Nellies sick, with TB, so she doesn't go then. But, it seems that she's not too sick that she can;t have an affair with another married man, and a child by him.
Someone writes to Harry in Australia and tells him, and all communications are lost, hence the children growing up not knowing their Dad, and thinking he'd died.
Still living with her Mum, along with her 4 children, Nellie sadly dies of her TB, in her Mums arms, and my mum and Aunty witnessed this, so it must have been quite traumatic for them, and they never really spoke about their upbringing, or past, I guess it was too painful.
The difficult part is, that my Aunty Joan told my sister before she died some family snippets that she must have overheard as a child, hoe true they are i have no idea, but am starting to think that they might br partly right.
It's said that Harry Powis, isn't his real name, that he worked for Lloyds in London (well he does say he was a clerk/commission agent) did something very wrong, and got shipped off by his family to Australia.
So, all the factual things I have of him are the marriage cert, and don't know ,what of that is true, and his war records, again, which bits are true?
I'm assuming that his NOK will be true, but he doesn't actually name his Mum, he names her as Mrs Powis, I have to track down who lives at that address at that time somehow, they must be in some way related to Harry surely?
I have trawled the censuses pre 1911 trying to find a Harry and Edward born London , but nothing matches so far. I'm npw starting to list all the Harry's, and all the Edwards, seeing if I can link any of them somehow, but that of course is depending on the fact that Powis is his real name!
I have managed to find Harry (I think it's the right one) starting in 1924 in Melbourne, can't find him between 1920 , when he returned and 1924 yet.
Also, trying to find his arrival in Australia, and him in any electoral role pre 1914, but no luck so far.
I also think i have his right death, but again, need proof that this is actuall my Harry.
So frustrating, but will be a big cheer moment when I have a break through!
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Oh my, this chap is not going to be easily found! ??? Such a sad story of loss.
There may be a newspaper death/funeral notices for the people in the certificates you have. If you would like me to have a look I would need the exact death dates as the newspapers are filed in chronological order. However it might be that Harry had no-one to put a notice in the paper. :( Just another avenue to try, though.
Judith
Sue, you may do better to start another thread with Harry's name in the heading and a link to this thread. ;D
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Hi Sue & Judith,
Not sure what the Powis connection is. Can someone enlighten me please.
Many thanks,
David
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See Reply #19 on this thread where suehogben is trying to trace a Harry Powis who was living with Arthur and Isabelle according to census entries.
It would be better if she started a new thread really but the connection is quite intriguing.
Judith
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Sorry, been away for a few days to another records office, and brain reeling at the mo with facts and dates.
Will start a new thread tomorrow when my brain calms down a bit!
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Hi
I don't know if this thread is at all active, but Arthur Henry Irwin is in fact my Great-Grandfather.
My mother is an Irwin through Arthur's son Brian.
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Hello,
Not sure if you have read the post through from the start or not?
My Grandfather, Harry Powis, English born, but served in the AIF, then went back after the war and lived in Australia with no contact at all with his British family through no fault of his own.
I had managed to track his life down while he was in Australia after the war, and it seems that he spent a lot of his life living with Arthur Henry and his family.
I think that they were even responsible for seeing that he had a burial and grave too when he died in Melbourne.
I was just hoping that someone from that family might have had knowledge of him, even pictures, of his life etc.
I just find it so sad that he went back to Australia thinking his wife and family were going to go back later, but of course they never did, they all grew up thinking
he had died.(Well his children anyway)
Have put a link to a more in depth history of you're interested.
http://our-anzacs.tumblr.com/post/2415756759/our-unknown-grandfather cheers
Sue
I would love to be able to get hold of a photo of his grave, and get some flowers laid on it, then I'd feel that the circle was (partly ) closed, and he would know that some of his family think about him, even though we might never have met him.