RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: medhist on Saturday 19 January 08 16:50 GMT (UK)
-
Can anyone tell me if this is the uniform worn by an able seaman royal navy 1923-1936.It's an official photo and I only know one family member in the navy. He died 1936. I'd love to ID him. Any help gratefully accepted.
-
My initial thoughts looking at the cap badge are that this is not an RN uniform and I don't think the chevrons on an RN uniform are worn that far down the sleeve. Looks like uniform of Merchant Navy.
Regards
Stewart
-
Have butchers at this site
http://www.pbenyon1.plus.com/Uniform/Phot/Index.html
This also pretty good for any Nautical research
http://rmhh.co.uk/mariners.html
Stewart
-
Hi,
If you have the original photograph and can zoom in on the buttons then that should help you.
Or if you could zoom in on the button and post it here someone may be able to help.
RR
-
What's the name of the photographer?
It looks like H Sadt Otis?
Rog
-
I think the Chevrons denote overseas service
Stewart
-
Hello Medhist,
Welcome to the restoration board , you might get a better result on the military board , but should you wish to have the picture restored and or coloured , it might be better scanned at 300 to 600 ppi.
Jim
-
They could be good conduct.
Rog
-
What's the name of the photographer?
It looks like H Sadt Otis?
Rog
It's H Scott Orr, High Road, Woodford Green, Essex.
-
sorry cant help with what the uniform is but it is definitely not a royal navy uniform . as someone said already the cap badge is wrong , the rn cap badge is a single anchor .
also it looks far too smart a uniform for a able seaman .
to me it looks more like a merchant seaman nco
-
He was overseas. He served in Hong Kong & went to Australia. I think he served at some time on HMS Delhi. I have a photograph of some of the crew he served with but I don't think he is in it.
-
Thanks. The smartness of the uniform also worried me. Only other pic of him shows him in jersey with naval collar not jacket and tie. I must look for a family member in The merchant navy.
-
Hello Medhist,
I've given your sailor a clean up.
Jim
-
Sorry, can't help, but just posting to say this one is driving me mildly crackers. The cap badge is so clear, there are crossed flags and one looks like the white with the red cross and something...the union flag? in the corner....
Someone, somewhere must know what it is.
-
Thank you so much. He does look better, but still a mystery man at present.
-
Any chance of seeing the other photo of his sipmates that you mentioned as it may give some clues that we may have missed.
You said you think he served aboard HMS Delhi if so that would suggest the Royal Navy but I'm still sure that is not an RN uniform he is wearing, due mainly to the cap badge. After scouring the Net for Merchant Navy cap badges I have seen many with a similar style, with Flags,Crests and various other logo's surrounded by Laurel leaves but this particular badge remains elusive.
I'm quite enjoying this rather challenging topic so I'll keep looking.
Regards
Stewart
-
Here's the other one. He was definitely in the Royal Navy because it says so on his death certificate in 1936. That's why Im trying to date it. Thanks for trying
-
yep i`ve still been looking as well ,
the photos above of course are definatley royal navy . they are all wearing the uniforms of either able or leading seamen apart from the one standing who is a petty officer you can see the difference in the cap badge and buttons to the first photo you posted.
cant believe that no-one has come up with a answer for you on this one.
-
The talleyband definitely says HMS Delhi, likely this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Delhi_%28D47%29
Cheers,
China
-
Thanks for that info. Nice to see which ship he served on.
-
Just a thought, how about taking a link to this thread over to the Armed Forces section, they have some pretty smart chaps over there.
-
Thanks. How would I do that without reposting it?
-
Copy the URL at the top of your browser, go to the Armed Forces part and open a new topic, say "Oi, 'ow's about 'aving a butcher's over 'ere" (or something like that ;D) and post the link :D
Cheers,
China
-
Couldn't have put it better myself, China
-
I'm not a navy man, but surely only someone in the RN could have a White Ensign on their cap?
Michael.
-
Sent the group pic to OH, and he says:
Post WWII (Gold wire cap tallies), pre 65 No4 Mk1s not L1A1s [Enfield rifles], from the badges on the sleeves, they look like a bunch of stokers.
Cheers,
C
-
Now I am completely mystified! Why would his mother have kept it so safe. Still don't know date of man in official portrait or badge so please keep trying everyone. Thanks
-
We aim to confuse :P ;D
C
-
Just come over from the Armed Forces board :D...
Now for the first pic...
I would say that the pic dates from around 1910ish (the collar and cut of the jacket).
I would also punt that he is from one of the steamship companies, such as P&O or Ellerman Lines (Merchant Navy Class - Southern Railway's named a series of engines after a slack handful.. ) or something of that ilk.
I've tried to look at some but haven't found it ...yet!
The Merchant navy had just a badge with MR surmounted by a crown within a rope type thing...
Perhaps he's a steward or something....
The second pic...They are NOT No4 rifles they are No1 MkIII. SMLE 8) 8) :o
L1A1 are SLRs 7.62mm not Lee Enfields.... :o
I would punt that there is NO chance that his pic is post WW2.... ::)
They are wearing 1908 ptn webbing in the first style as they have not been altered for trench warfare. The next style came in in 1937. The Navy did have some weirder bits to their webbing, but this pic is deffo PRE WW2...
Only during wartime did the cap tallys say "HMS" rather than a ships name. that notwithstanding...I have seen some WW1 pics with named tallys on...and with white topped caps...summer wear
It was not unknown for someone in civvy shipping to transfer to the Royal Navy...given my presumed date of the first, he may have transferred during WW1, and then stayed in... ;)
Have you searched for a medal card yet, or perhaps his Naval records???
Another thing...several of the cap tally bows are towards the front...This is done in times of celebration...
-
OH just got home from work and tells me they are MkIII's, even before he'd seen Scrimnet's post :D So we have a consensus on the rifle, which came out in 1907. He also says the talleyband only had the ship's name on it during peacetime.
And BTW I never said the L1A1 is a Lee Enfield.
C
-
PS...
No4 Lee Enfields came out in 1942...and had a sticky out bit of the barrel...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/enfield1.jpg)
This is a No4...
-
OH just got home from work and tells me they are MkIII's, even before he'd seen Scrimnet's post :D So we have a consensus on the rifle, which came out in 1907. He also says the talleyband only had the ship's name on it during peacetime.
And BTW I never said the L1A1 is a Lee Enfield.
C
Oh dear...I'm looking like mr misery guts here ::) ;)....I'm going to have to disagree again....
http://www.geocities.com/greatwarnavy/Image8.jpg
WW1 sailors in white topped caps! 15th June...1916
-
BTW I think I posted the pic of the No4 at the same time as chinas last post!!! ;)
-
BTW pt 2... ;)
I didn't say ::)...I think the second pic is mid to late 20s / early 30s
-
scrimnet you''re amazing. So I'm back to pre 1937 with webbing, which is corect for him as he died in 1936. He was stationed in Hong kong for several years and also went to Australia at some point, so would the white caps fit with that?
The first pic being c1910 means it is too early for him. He was born 1909. He joined Navy in early 1920s-not sure when. I have no experience of getting navy records. I looked it up in national archives and where it would be depends on what precise year he entered which I don't know. I don't really know where to start there. Are there people who specialise in looking up that kind of thing like they do for the Army?
Welcome any suggestions.
Thanks for trying to solve my puzzle everyone
-
I've asked an "associate" of mine who specialises in pre WW2 Royal Navy to look at the pics..he may come up with some more int for you...
As for the white top bit...White tops and white flannel fronts were worn in summer, blue tops and blue jerseys in winter, in home waters. However, supposedly, the wearing of white top caps was suspended in home waters for the duration, but with the above pic we know different!
White caps were worn all year in warmer climes: in the med, white tops with blue uniforms in the winter, white tops with white uniforms in the summer, in the tropics it was white tops woth white uniforms all year round. I have a feeling (although this could be WW2 only) that blue caps only were worn at night...
-
BTW your chap didn't join the Navy because of a family association with the sea did he?????.....his father perhaps or an uncle???
-
Not that I know of. The only family connection with the sea was his great grandfather, Mariner,dead before he was born.
-
Nobody seems to have suggested a training ship/establishment.
A close-up of the cap badge might help to identify the other flag and give a clue
Ray
-
I've tried to upload a close up but site won't allow it. If you save and then preview the image you could zoom in on the badge
-
Most of my attention has been drawn to the cap badge. I don't think the left hand flag is a white ensign because the quadrant that contains the flag of the union fills the whole segment but this one appears to show some white around the edges. I think therefore it is simply the red cross of St. George with some sort of motif, crest or a star in the upper quadrant. upon closer inspection of the other flag it looks suspiciously like a Wheatsheaf, maybe symbolizing that the Shipping line concerned were mainly bulk carriers of grain etc. Just a simple case of finding the Shipping line that used this logo I reckon ::)
Stewart
-
Thanks for that Stewart.
-
Best I can do on the badge
-
Thank you. I couldn't get it very clearly at all. I've been seaching for shipping line uniforms and for training ships which has also been suggested but no luck so far. Thanks trying.
-
One dot on a cross of St George....rear admirals flag? Which retired admiral had his own shipping line? one of them must have....
-
Medhist
Just a quick question. Are there any connections in your family to Italy? Whilst searching through the almost endless shipping companies I've noticed a lot of the Italian companies have used the cross of St.George in their logos and some with motifs in the upper left quadrant. La veloce, Corrado and Italian Transporti Maritimi to name but three.
Still searching :)
Regards
Stewart
-
None that I know of. I imagine if he was looking for a job at sea he may have joined any shipping company. I've noticed on crew manifests that there are men from numerous countries working on board.
What do you think of the sugggestion that it may be from a training ship or school of some kind? I also had the thought that it was possibly from a commonwealth navy or line. We had connections with Australia and I know he visited there at least once. The official photo was taken in Woodford Green, Essex. Not that far from where the family lived. Also not far from London ports.
Thanks for looking!
-
Just added to a very old and 'mission impossible' thread on my mystery sailor, and it brought these people to mind.
I sent an email, with my sailors photo to them, and they came back with a 20 year time scoop and his rank... which was more than I had.
Perhaps they could help with your cap badge...
Don't hold your breath, they did take quite a while to answer... but an answer did come.
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/
-
I've cropped the photo right down to just the cap emblem and posted it on another site. I'll let you know if they come up with anything.
-
Don't know if this helps but he's definitely an Officer in the Merchant Navy working for a shipping line. Apparently the 'houseflags' on his cap will reveal the actual line but is was too blurred for the guys to see.
-
Thank you for that. I'll try the naval museum suggested and hope somebody somewhere wil recognise the badge. Seems he must have been working at sea other than in the RN. Up to now the family only ever mentioned RN.
-
I have generated a bit of interest on a more nautical themed website and they believe the two flags are an amalgamation of two shipping lines the one on the left could possibly be that of "Shaw Savill" as illustrated here.
I'll keep you posted
Regards
Stewart
-
Thank you. That's great. It does look a possibility.