RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Kylie B on Thursday 17 January 08 06:40 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for a Thomas Leiper born circa 1788 in the Aucheneross, New Cumnock area. I do not know his parents, but do know her married one Agnes Herbert in 1797 in Castle Mains, New Cumnock.
Can anyone tell me where to find baptism records for this period and place, or who has access and could do a search please??
Would be very keen to find Thomas parents, and any siblings please!
Family later went by Napier, as an alternative seach name.
Thanks
Kylie B
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hi kylie b
looking at the IGI baptism is listed as 8th april 1778 avondale lanark
his parents thomas leiper and marrion biggar and a death of 1813
but this is a submitted entry so i don't know what the source is
his marriage is also a submitted entry giving the same baptism and
i notice new cumnock is in ayr
ev
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Thanks Ev- will take a look!!
Does anyone know if Scotland People would have this baptism and marriage on their on-line records??
Kylie B
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Hi
There are 3 entries for Leiper birth/baptisms on Scotlandspeople during the period 1778 - 1792, as follows:
Thomas to Thomas Leiper, day labourer. in Strath (this is right to edge of page and may be Strathaven as that place appears a couple more times on page. Born 2.4.1778, bapt. 8.4.1778
Thomas to Andrew Leiper in Kirkwood. Born 26.4.1778, bapt. 8.5.1778
Thomas to James Leiper in Parkhead of Kype (?). Bapt. 3.6.1787.
All the above are in Avondale. In none of the above entries is the mother's name given.
Diana
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hi diana :)
solid work ;)
ev
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Diana - thats great!! Thanks very much!
Now to tracking down the marriage of father, Thomas, to Marrion Bigger to confirm the IGI details.
Do Scottish deaths usually list parents - would this be accessable anywhere for Thomas Jnr's apparent death in 1813??
Thanks all!!
Kylie B
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Hello Kylie B
From SP - some info on what you can get on OPRs. You can get a very good detailed breakdown on what is on post 1855 certs by following the link: http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&404
There's a wide variety of info on the site. Regards, Steve :O)
"Old Parish Registers
The Old Parish Registers (OPR's) comprise the records of births & baptisms, banns & marriages and deaths & burials kept by individual parishes of the Established Church (Church of Scotland) before the introduction of civil registration in 1855. The parish minister or the session clerk usually assumed responsibility for maintaining the registers, but since there was no standard format employed, record keeping varied enormously from parish to parish and also from year to year. As a result, the information may be sparse, unreliable and difficult to read.
The oldest register dates from 1553 (baptisms and banns from Errol, Perthshire), but although there was a requirement from 1552 that parishes record baptisms and marriages, many did not commence until much later, and some more remote areas only have registers from the early 19th century. Some registers have been lost or destroyed and the condition of the surviving 3500 is variable. The General Register Office for Scotland holds the surviving original registers.
Registration in Church of Scotland's registers was costly and unpopular, so many people did not bother to register events at all.
Although details of some non-conformists can be found in Established Church registers, many members of other religious denominations chose to have events registered in their own churches. In addition, rapid urbanisation during the 19th century contributed to the diminishing influence of the Church and a decrease in registration in these areas. It was estimated at the time that as few as 30% of events actually occurring were being recorded for some urban parishes.
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Hi
Thomas Leiper married Marrion Biggar 4.4.1776, parishioners, Avondale Lanarkshire
I have used up my spare credits. It would be worth your while buying some credits if you want to find the whole family.
Diana
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Diana,
Many Many Many thanks for your generosity and assistance!!
Will do exactly as you suggest - any search tips for me??
Gratefully
Kylie B
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Hi Kylie
What exactly do you know for sure about this family aside from the "submitted entry" on the IGI? (you should always be wary of these). Do you have some accurate later information on them which we could use to trace them?
I only ask because the only Auchenross I can find is in Perthshire. The only Leipers at the time specified are in Lanarkshire. You are referring to the New Cumnock area which is in Ayrshire.
As another Rootschatter has explained, the Old Parish Records are of the Established Church only. Also, many records are illegible, lost, or were never made in the firstplace. In many small parishes, there was no minister for long periods of time, so co-habitation was regarded as a legal marriage. There are no death records on Scotlandspeople for the time prior to civil registration as yet. They say the Burial records from the Old Parish Records will be on the website some time in the future .
So, do let us know what you have so that we can help
Diana
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Ok, this is what I do have...
Robet Leiper born 1799 Paisley Renfrewshire; married Isabella Miller on 9 August 1828, Avondale, Lanarkshire.
Robert was the son of Thomas Leiper born Ayrshire 1778. Thomas married Agnes Herbert 1797 in Castle Mains, New Cumnock, Ayrshire, and died in Gorbals Lanarkshire in 1813.
This couple had a daughter Jennet born in Castle Mains Ayrshire in 1798, Robert in Paisley Renfrewshire in 1799, and then 6 other children all born in 'Gorbals, Lanarkshire'.
This is the information I have from Robert and Isabella's emigration records in Australia, and Roberts Australian death certificate - this couple and their children emigrated in 1838. Aucheneross appears on a transcribed copy, so it could always be a misread of the actual document.
Therefore, it would seem the Leipers ended up in Lanarkshire, possibly coming from Ayrshire, via Renfrewshire or even originated in Lanarkshire in the first place....I think!!!
So are we on the right track do you think???
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Hi Kylie
I cannot find birth or marriage of Thomas Leiper said to be b. 1778 Ayrshire. I tried some creative variations of his name without luck!
A bit more luck with his children -
Jennet LOPPER bapt. 12.8.1798 New Cumnock Ayrshire.
Robert LEPPER born 16th, bapt. 17.11.1799 Renfrew.
John NAPIER
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Sorry, Kylie, don't know what happened there!
John NAPIER bapt. 21.3.1802 Glasgow City, Lauristowns (?)
George NAPIER bapt. 1.1.1804 Glasgow City
Jean LIPPER bapt. 16.3.1806 Glasgow City (she must have died young)
Thomas NAPIER bapt. 4.3.1808 Glasgow City
Jean NAPIER bapt. 30.12.1810 Glasgow City (born to Thomas Napier and Agnes HALBERT)
Agnes NAPIER bapt. 5.8.1813 Glasgow City
The Lipper, Lepper, Lopper, Napier seems to be more a transcription error than anything else. The records are hard to read, and Leiper is rather unusual.
I could not find either Thomas or Robert's marriage, sorry.
Diana
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Hi Kylie
I do think you are on the right track, however you may never have proof as some of the baptisms and marriages you mnetion are simply not in the OPR records. You could make up a tree to use as a basis for further research, as follows:
You have Thomas Leiper who married Marrion Biggar 4.4.1776 in Avondale parish, Lanarkshire. This marriage is in the records.
Thomas had a son Thomas Leiper b. 2.4.1778 Bapt. 8.4.1778 Avondale parish Lanarkshire. This baptism is in the records, altho' mother's name is not shown.
I think it is possible that Thomas was b. Avondale (town of Strathaven) as per this baptism record, and not in New Cumnock. Because Thomas married in New Cumnock, his son Robert Leiper may simply have assumed that his father was born there. Especially as Robert's older sister Jennet was born in New Cumnock. Here I am assuming that the only reason you say Thomas was b. New Cumnock is that this was stated on Robert's immigration records. Is that right?
Thomas married Agnes Herbert 1797 in New Cumnock, but this marriage is not in the OPR records. Thomas and Agnes had 8 children as per my list in the previous 2 posts. The first child was b. in New Cumnock, the second, Robert, in 1799 Paisley, Renfrewshire.
I am inclined to think this was basically an Avondale (Strathaven) family. Like so many Scottish families they had to move away to find work (Thomas was described as a 'day labourer'). Thomas b. 1778 went to New Cumnock where he met and married Agnes Herbert and they had their first child. They must have immediately moved to Paisley, Renfrewshire as their 2nd child Robert was born there in 1799. Soon after, like hundreds of thousand others, they went to Glasgow where all the work was. Robert returned to Avondale to marry Isabella Miller in 1828. (altho' this marriage is not in the records.)
Have a look at a map and you will see that the distances we are talking about are not great.
I will get back to you if I find anything else, but I do recommend you get onto Scotlandspeople yourself.
Diana
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Kylie, I found the marriage of Robert Leiper and Isabella Miller. She is shown as Isobel Millar.
Diana
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Diana,
THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!
You are quite right in that all the Scottish info I have is from Roberts emigration records, and therefore what he knew to be true - so it seems very plausable as you suggested that this was in fact a Lanarkshire Avondale family, who moved as required by the need for work.
I have signed up to Scotlands People and bought myself some credits, so I will continue the search as I can, and once again thank you so very much for all your generosity, assistance and patience!!! You have been grand!
Gratefully
Kylie B
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Thanks for your kind words, Kylie. Trouble is, I just can't resist a challenge! Good luck with your search.
Diana
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I have Leipers in my tree. William Leiper born 1783 marrried a Jean Hamilton in 1811. They were at Drumboy farm, Loudon which is the next parish to Avondale but in Ayrshire rather than Lanarkshire. Their children seem to have all died in infancy. They were in that area as farmers/farm workers for hundreds of years and, as far as I know some of them are still there. One of them was a Minister in the Free Church of Scotland who moved to Brandon Manitoba around 1860. Yet another, Guy, went to Worland, Wyoming. USA where he died in 1960.I dont know a lot more but hope that that helps.
Pamal
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Intriguing family - I never guessed the name was Scottish!!
Do you know the parents of your William Leiper born 1783?? I have a Thomas Leiper born 1778 - parents were Thomas Leiper and Marrion Biggar.
Your William is born at the right time to be a possible sibling or cousin....
Kylie B
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Hi Kylie B
Sorry that is as far as my information goes. They are right at the end of a branch of my family so only came up in passing as it were. The only other place I have have found the family is in Berwick-upon-Tweed where they ran a fruit and vegetable business for many, many years.
Boswells
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I have been studying several farming families in Avondale. While many of the children of the many powerful farming families have moved away to make their fortunes in Scotland and abroad, it is amazing how many of the core families are still there and often in the same farms.
This is certainly true of the Leipers, Lindsays, Alstons, Hamiltons, Patersons, and many others. Their surplus children left the locality but were not always the youngest. In most cases the succession to the farm depended on who was there at the time that the father died or wanted to retire. The security of the livelihoods of the parent were reliant on picking a successor who was a good farmer and that sometimes meant picking a son-in-law or a nephew.
With all of these families it is worth going back to their roots in Avondale or East Kilbride in Lanarkshire or the neighbouring parish of Loudoun in Ayrshire.
Hope that may help
Boswells.
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Boswells,
Does this mean there are descendants of the Leiper clan/family group still in Avondale?? How would I go about finding out where the family farm or property was, and then tracing its occupancy?
I had never thought of this before, and I am really intrigued - how amazing it would be to discover the actual residing place of the family, and even more incredible if there were still Leipers there!!!
Many thanks
Kylie B
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Kylie B
I don't live in the area but I have come accross the following in my researches.
William Leiper 1783-1867 married Jean Hamilton 1792 - 1865 on 13th April 1811. They farmed at Drumboy, Loudon.
John Leiper died 6.1.1838 farmer at Underlaw Newmilns. I have another who became a minister in Brandon, Manitoba. and another who went to Wyoming. I have little doubt that descendants are still in the Avondale or Loudon parishes today. Some of them married into my family over the past 200 years and my family are still strongly represented in those parishes.
Boswells.
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"I only ask because the only Auchenross I can find is in Perthshire. The only Leipers at the time specified are in Lanarkshire. You are referring to the New Cumnock area which is in Ayrshire."
I have only just joined RootsChat so apologise if I have not followed the correct conventions about replying.
There is an Auchincross farm on the Ordnance Survey map about 4 km west of New Cumnock village. The Mormon transcript of the 1881 census spells this as Auchencross so this may well be the Aucheneross referred to.
I have not had time yet to transcribe what I have got about the Leiper family from Drumboy but will do so soon. There seem to have been 12 children born between 1812 and 1835 to William Leiper and Jean Hamilton, but only 5 died young. Thee youngest was the John Leiper who became a minister. I'm not sure tey if there is any connection to the various other Leiper families mentioned in the thread.
RobertW
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This farm sounds very promising! It seems most likely tht Boswells William Leiper and my Thomas Leiper were related somehow, given the proximity of the families - please let us know what more you find on the family!!
And welcome to Rootschat Robert!
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I have some of the information on William Leiper born 9.12.1783 married Jean Hamilton born 1792 on 13th April 1811 at Stonehouse, Lanark. My source shows three sons died in infancy plus:
William b 1814
Marion b 13.6.1816 m Thomas Morton Farmer of Henryton, Loudon, Ayrshire
John b 1835 d 31.12.1886 Minister at Chapelton Free church and Barrie Presbyterian Church, Ontario, Canada
Robert b. 17.3.1812 died aged 6.
My interest is with Marion and the Morton connection.
If anyone has any more information I would be delighter to have it.
The Leipers and all of the families in the area seem to have moved from place to place as the leases on their farms ended and they had to find new homes. There are several Leipers in Kilmarnock and in Berwick-upon-Tweed today.
Boswells
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I saw the posts on Leipers and Drumboy Farm so thought I should join Roots and see if I can contribute and maybe learn something about the Leipers who went to Canada and USA.
I am descended from James L. (b1828) the older brother of John who went to Canada. I have visited the area recently and have photos of Drumboy farm and the graves of William L and Jean Hamilton etc at Newmilns. I have quite a lot of info about the family, I too found 12 children.
I'm also descended from the Mortons (John M. b 1807 at Brancefield Fm, Darvel), but have not yet managed to connect these with the ones Marion L married into. If anyone can help I'd be interested.
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I too am descended from the Leipers who farmed at Drumboy, and my gr. grandfather was one the children of William Leiper and Jean Hamilton. He was the third boy child to be named Robert as the first Robert was born July 19, 1812 but died on June 18, 1818 and the second Robert born Dec 27, 1819 died in infancy. My greatgrandfather Robert Leiper was born April 12, 1832 and as a young man moved south and farmed Belhamage close to Barrhill, Ayrshire before once again moving to farm Glenluce, Wigtownshire in about 1884. My grandfather was one of his children and the only one who immigrated to Canada. I have also visited Drumboy and the Leiper gravestones at Newmilns but I live in Canada. I have over the past 10 years accumulated a lot of information regarding this branch of the Leiper family, and have some information on the Morton connection and also the Wyoming connection, so if you have any questions please ask.
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Belhamage you may be interested to know that Robert farmed the farm called Airyhemming at Glenluce before emigrating.I now have literally hundreds of Leipers in Ayrshire, Australia, New Zealand and the US.
talljohn48. You will not be the first one to come up against the many, so far, unlinked branches of the Morton family. I have at least 7 families where I have come to a dead end but am sure that if I could go further back all would be made clear. One of the problems is that the Mortons were members of the Covenanting families are were loath to register the birth of their children. I have your tree back to Robert Morton and Janet Lindsay (of my family). I also have the tree of Thomas Morton and William Leiper but no linkage other than through the Lindsay connection in several of the lines.
If you need any specific help then let me know.
Boswells
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Thanks for your offers of help, Belhamage and Boswells. I'm away from home at the moment, so dont have access to all my research details. I'll be in touch when I get home later this week.
Talljohn48
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Auchencross was owned by my In-Laws (Findlay) until recently when the coal board bought is to open cast the area. ???
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Hi Kylie B,
I have just had a joined RootsChat and have come across your entry regarding the Leiper family. I am a member of the Leiper family of Strathaven and this interests me dearly. Before my father died some 18 years ago, he was really into his family tree, and some of the things mentioned in your entry are in what he has. A lot of the information he has collected he obtained from he library in East Kilbride regarding births and marriages. The William Leiper of Drumboy Farm is mentioned in it, but I do not know if he was actually related. His great great grandfather was James Leiper of Parkhead of Kype. I don't have a dob for him, but his great grandfather was Robert Leiper (a carrier) born 24/11/1776. He had 2 brothers and 4 sisters. Their mother was a Janet Aiton. I have so many pages on it that it would be impossible to print it all.
Don't know if this will help you with your research.
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Leiper61,
I would be very interested to see the information you mentioned. If you scan it, you can attach it to one of your postings.
I am interested in John Leiper (b. 12Dec1706) of Avondale. His mother was Issabell and his father was Robert Leiper. I am trying to identify whether this is the same John Leiper that emigrated to the States and died in Hamilton Twp., Cumberland Co., Pennsylvania in 1782.
My understand is that the name is actually Germanic, as it has no meaning in Gaelic. They're found in southern Scotland from very early days. From what I've seen, in England its Leaper, in Scotland its Leiper, and in Ulster and the States its Leeper. My family originally spelled their name Leiper and then switched to Leeper after they had been in the States a while.
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I have recently been introduced to the Leiper family in my own research.
I am interested in Catherine/Katrin Leiper who married
1/ James Torrance 30 October 1712, Lesmahagow.
2/ John Watson 19 September 1733, Lesmahagow. Farmer at Langkype
I descend from her Son John Torrance, Deadwaters Farm that married
1/ Marion Hamilton
2/ Jean Fram/Frame in 1766 Lesmahagow.
The Leiper, Hamilton, Torrance, & Semple families are very challenging to keep straight! There are so many of them. But if any of you has come across Katrin Leiper I would appreciate your input.