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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: franpow on Monday 14 January 08 23:22 GMT (UK)
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I wondered if anyone could assist me. I sent for my G.Grandfathers death certificate. Frederck Hollis 11th Feb1878.Woods Lane Derby. aged 36yrs. His occupation is down as a Gingerbeer Manufacturer,
Would this mean he had his own company?
What chances are there of finding any references to it. I have searched various directories, without any results.
I ask this as written on his sons William Hollis marriage cert (1923) Frederick Hollis is down as being of "Independent means. which inturn leads me to think he may not have just been a laborer. Or am I have delusions of grandeur.
Thank you in advance for any advice or help on this matter.
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have you searched directories?
I had a quick look 1870's-and found in Derby
Thomas Hollis Chemist Friar gate
Frederick Hollis Confectioner brook St
www.historicaldirectories.org
There is also a Hollis &Co soda water manufacturers in Leicester -may be some family Connection???
Suz
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I pass woods lane every day, there was at the time a spa water manufacture there, the factory has been demolished, but their is a row of cottages called Spa Cottages, and W. E. B and date also on the wall, and a Spa Villa around the corner on Stockbrook Street, the W.E.B stood for William Ebenezer Burrows, he owned the Spa Water Works and workers Cottages on Woods Lane and formed the Mineral Water Company Burrows & Sturgis, maybe your relative lived in one of his cottages and made gingerbeer at Burrows Spa Water Works, just a Theory
I notice that on the 1891 census Hannah Hollis is remaried to a Shreeve at 2 Woods Lane and between 10 and 16 Woods lane is Listed as " Ginger Beer Manufacturer". or i will looke at the dates on the cottages, Burrows may have took over after Frederick Hollis's death
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Thank you so much. You are correct about Woods Lane.(I thought it was an Off Licence now? I wish I had a photo of the place)Hannah, with sons Frederick, William (my grandfather) and Fanny Hollis appears to have merged with Charles Shreeve.
As a matter of interest, Frederick Hollis, The Gingerbeer Manufacturer, on his death cert was it seems a baker before changing trades and the poor man dying of Tonsillitis.
The only thing outstanding now is that Fredericks mother Eliza could not write, and her surname was either Reeks or Burks. I just cannot read the name.
Again, thank you so much for your valuable help on this.
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Hello again, I last wrote to you in Jan 08. About my G.Grandfather living in Woods Lane Derby. I journeyed there briefly last week, sadly I forgot to take a photo of the Spa building you mentioned in our last email. Would it be rude of me to ask if you could take a photo of the Spa water building, or cottages. I would be so grateful for your kind help. We took a photo of the 2 Woods Lane. with the John Bull advert large as life displayed.
I'm also attempting to discover the name of the Pub when Fredrick Hollis run it(1878), is there anyway of finding this info out. I've tried the Brewers Society they couldn't help at all.
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What pub? I can't see a pub mentioned before.
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What pub? I can't see a pub mentioned before.
The Pub on the corner of 2 Woods Lane. If you look up you can see quite visably the signs for John Bull.
I can't recall the other name. I have tried to discover the name for this pub. It was used in 1878-90 as a pub.
I have photos for it also.
I wrote to a public house society hoping they would have knowledge, sadly they did not.
I have a certifcate of death (G.Grandfather 1878 in the same P.House)
Any light you can shine on this query would be so good.
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Hi There,
I found this some years ago,if you would like it, let me know and i will gladly send it to you.
Kind Regards
Ken
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Frederick's mother Eliza is my 3x Great Aunt. She was born Eliza Ball in 1818 in Sudbury. She married Edward Hollis (Frederick's father) on 8 Jan 1837 at Sudbury. Edward died in 1845. In 1851, she was married to Joseph Tranter, who was a grocer living on Burton Road. In the 1881 census, she appears as Eliza Berks and lived with her son William, who ran The Old Spa Inn on Abbey Street. Hope this helps.
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richsher, You cannot imagine how thrilled I am at this news. You have given me Eliza's Maiden name of which I've been perplexed for some time. I have trawled through Ancestry.Co.UK for months. Finding Edward was a gift. I had been shuffling around in the dark for ages. The surname Berk's became a slight problem as I had sent for the death cert for her son, Frederick (My GGrandfather.) she was present at his demise.Sadly, I couldn't;t understand the writing and only presumed Berk's was the surname.
So, if Eliza was your great Aunt, did she have a sister or brother?.
This has fueled me into searching for her parents.
Thank you so much.
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Hi, I hope you don't confused too much by your new family! Most of the information comes from the censuses, so here it goes:
Eliza's parents were John Ball (1792-1883) and Anne (1790-1871). Anne was born in Bradley, near Ashbourne. John, I believe, was born in Sudbury (but the censuses sometimes show Birmingham). He was a soldier, possibly in the 76th foot regiment. They lived in the Sudbury area, around Potter Somersall and Marston Montgomery.
Eliza had 9 brothers and sisters. Charlotte b1815 (married Edward Mellor); Maria b1817; Samuel b1821 (my Great Great Grandfather and married Rachel Wallis); Caroline b1823; Charles b1824; William b1829; Maria b1831 (married George Whiting); Simeon b1832 and Agnes b1833 (married Arthur Kirkland).
I don't know if you know about Frederick's brothers and sister, (apologies if you know already):
Frances b1837 (was a servant for Thomas Oliver in Bollington near Macclesfield in 1861); George b1839 and William b1843 (he married Caroline Beckwith in 1866 and died in 1891.
Hope this helps you along the way.
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Thank you. This is all so amazing. I will research the places offered, and everyone concerned.
Can't thank you enough.
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Thank you again for so much info regarding Eliza Ball & Edward Hollis. Do you by chance know what the parents of Edward were called? up to now, It has been suggested they maybe "Richard Hollis &Sarah Evans, married 1809.
Again, many thanks
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Hi franpow
I don't live far from woods lane and often go to the Sainburys shop round the corner, so am happy to go and take a photo for you. I'm assuming it's this Woods Lane?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4SUNA_enGB288GB288&q=woods+lane+derby&um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title
Just let me know exactly what you want and I will take it for you within the next week.
Claire
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Sorry I haven't replied earlier, life's been a bit hectic. I haven't been able to find where Edward was born. The 1841 census states he wasn't born in Staffordshire. (Eliza and Edward were living in Uttoxeter). I've checked the IGI but there seems a black hole around 1811, when I think Edward was born. However, there was a Richard Hollis and Sarah who had their children baptised at Sudbury - Anne 1812, Mary Anne 9/5/1814, Thomas 22/3/1818 and Henry 4/6/1820. I couldn't find any mention of Edward in the records for Doveridge and Somersal Herbert, which are neighbouring parishes.
Hope this may help,
richsher
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I am aware of the companie owned by W.E Burrows, from what i can tell he was one of the first people in derby to bottle mineral water. He also made ginger beer, soda water, and posibley invented iron brew toward the end of his career. His company was originally located on Cherry Street in 1850 and later moved around 1877. (Cherry street no longer exists due to the new railway line (which also no longer exists), Cheery street used to run parrallel to Lodge lane, near 5 Lamps). The company then moved to Stockbrook street and was called ''Spar Mills'' around 1895. The company later moved again. I would assume that your grandfarther may have worked for this company which turned into Burrows and Sturges. It might be worth seeing if you can find any information regarding the company and its employers, do not know if it exists.
Kind Regards,
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Nicolson, thank you for an interesting idea. I will do as you suggest.
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I have no family interest, but the Gingerbeer heading sparked my attention while searching for my Derbyshire connections!
I think your delusions of grandeur are not delusions! :o
As a point of interest, it struck me that:
Frederick was possibly already in business as a Confectioner.
His trade was a baker.
Traditional Gingerbeer is made from water, sugar, ground ginger and... bakers' yeast! (And could be very alcoholic!)
It seems likely to me that Frederick began making Gingerbeer as a sideline, which became very popular locally.
He probably formed a symbiotic relationship with W.E.B - using Burrows' Spa Water for his beer at 12-16 Woods Lane.
My own family were Lace Manufacturers, down the road in Long Eaton, and in the censuses the enumerators often used lace maker and lace worker interchangeably as terms for unspecified workers in the lace industry. The term lace manufacturer was only used for company owners or directors.
Similarly, a Gingerbeer Manufacturer would almost certainly have been an owner or director. ;D
Finally, Fred was living by independent means when his son married, which means that he was not an employee - and certainly not labouring! All this before he died at 36! Maybe he sold out to B&S, made a fortune, and retired to the pub he bought?
Did the censuses state if he had employees?
Perhaps he was a partner or director in Burrows' business, running the Gingerbeer production?
So feel as grand as you like, ;) and check for Frederick's name in the National Archives, Derby records and the University of Nottingham archives for any business records they may have!
And, call back and let us know what you find.
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My head is spinning with the thought of all this. Its wonderful that you have suggested which my dad (Fred's grandson) had always claimed. That his Grandfather was well off.
I'm such a novice at all this. I'm going to attempt the areas of interest you have provided me with. Ive never understood the National Archives, they maybe straight forward to many, however to me they are gobby-gook. But I must try. I will return with my information, & again thank you so much.
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Franpow:
Don't knock yourself: I've been at this for 11 years and even those with more years' experience are still learning (and making mistakes!)
So far, as the Gingerbeer King goes, we learn to pick up clues, with experience (and get practice with who-dunnits! ;) ) You soon get to notice things like manufacturer v maker, and independent means v [a self-employed] shoemaker.
As for the gingerbeer recipe and baker connection, I can bake bread with real yeast, and I'm old enough to have made traditional gingerbeer and hippie enough to still do so occasionally! ::)
I too find the Nat Archives confusing, despite being a qualified librarian - just go the site and search for Fred. There may be legal documents relating to any of his dealings. Request a quote first if there are loads of pages - can be expensive for large files. They email them instantly.
Personally, I would start with the University of Nottingham archives (online) - I found business papers of my WALLISes which gave me info that I didn't already have. If you find anything particular, you can probably buy photocopies, by telephoning the library, if you don't live within reach.
Derby Record offices are very likely to have business documents and Fred's Will. It is likely to give you more names and it will give you the size of his estate. There is a list somewhere of Derby Wills - maybe someone on here knows the web address... hmm, maybe on the Wirkswirth site: gives the date they were drawn up. ( One of my mistakes: I spent several years looking for my G Grandfather's death circa the date on the Will list... finally found it a couple of years ago - 24 years after the Will date! :o C'est la vie.)
Do keep us posted on your progress and PM me if you think I can help - but no guarantees! ;D
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did anyone tell you that you are a mine of information? thankfully you are and also very kind. I live in South Wales. However, I do have a daughter living in Sheffield. She, unknown to her as yet is about to go on a journey for her mum:)
I will report back asap.
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Hi, I hope you don't confused too much by your new family! Most of the information comes from the censuses, so here it goes:
Eliza's parents were John Ball (1792-1883) and Anne (1790-1871). Anne was born in Bradley, near Ashbourne. John, I believe, was born in Sudbury (but the censuses sometimes show Birmingham). He was a soldier, possibly in the 76th foot regiment. They lived in the Sudbury area, around Potter Somersall and Marston Montgomery.
Eliza had 9 brothers and sisters. Charlotte b1815 (married Edward Mellor); Maria b1817; Samuel b1821 (my Great Great Grandfather and married Rachel Wallis); Caroline b1823; Charles b1824; William b1829; Maria b1831 (married George Whiting); Simeon b1832 and Agnes b1833 (married Arthur Kirkland).
I don't know if you know about Frederick's brothers and sister, (apologies if you know already):
Frances b1837 (was a servant for Thomas Oliver in Bollington near Macclesfield in 1861); George b1839 and William b1843 (he married Caroline Beckwith in 1866 and died in 1891.
Hope this helps you along the way.
Hi sorry to hijack this thread but I am sure we are distant relatives! I will explain.....my grandad was Herbert ball born 1909 died 1995.
His father was towers ball born 1877 died 1968 married elizabeth Thomas
Towers father was Samuel ball born 1849 married Mary Ann ( surname unknown yet) born in doveridge and showing on the 1891 census as residing in marston Montgomery and running the thurvaston arms as a publican.
His father was also Samuel ball born 1821 married Rachel wallis residing in doveridge I have numerous children listed for them of which I have not fully researched yet. Can you let me know what info you have please
Thanks hannah
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Hi Gig seagull,
the information regarding Eliza Ball b. 1820 is about all I have got. She Appeared to have several children by Edward Hollis then lived with Joe Tranter. I haven't followed through with anymore research as Im still discovering other parts of the family.
I had actually forgotton this amount until you pointed it out to me.
I gather Samual Ball is her brother. Born a year later. Eliza is my G.Great Grandmother.
Interestingly, her son Frederick Hollis is my dad's father. My dad is still living!