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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: mallow on Monday 14 January 08 21:14 GMT (UK)
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Hello if a person was in the Army in 1901 would they be recorded on census. cannot find my relative anywhere
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Hi mallow ! long time no talk, nice to "see you again" ;D
It's more than lightly that they were in Africa in the Boer War if they are not on the 1901 Census.
If they retired from the army prior to WW1 their records are more than lightly at The National Archives.
Wendi :)
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Hi Wendi Happy New Year to you. :) Yes I thought of Boer War but he was only 17 would that have been to young to enlist, are records of men who served in Boer War anywhere on line. got to crack this one in 08 ;D
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Hi mallow
I know nothing about researching the Boer War, but I think they did take boy soldiers out with them, and know that the Medal Rolls for The Boer War are a good source of information.
I'm sure others know much more detail, and hope they post replies for you ;D
Wendi :)
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Thanks Wendi I will live in hope :)
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Hi Mallow
If you post his name and regiment someone may have the Boer War medal roll. Also if you say where he was born someone might be able to have more luck with the census. You have to remember that Ireland was also part of the UK, so he may have been stationed there. The Irish government is planning to publish first the 1911 census and then the 1901, and access will be free.
Regarding his age, there are ‘Boys’ on the roll. That was anyone under the age of 18. His 12 years enlistment would have started at 18, but there is just enough time for him to be discharged before 1914.
See also - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
Ken
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Thanks Ken, his name was Frederick Charles Allsopp born 1883 Staffordshire also fought in WW1 and survived
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What do you know of WW1 service? Do you know the regiment? If you have his papers they should say if he had served before
Ken
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Thanks Ken didn't know regiment so I could not get any records.
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I had the same question - and my great grandfather turned up in the army. I went to Kew and found his service records very easily...I ordered up a whole box of them and went through them until I found his. I didn't know which regiment he was with before I went - or whether he was in the army at all. It was just that I could not find him anywhere else.
He had signed in 1893 for 12 years and spent the whole time in India.
I think we were really lucky that day as he was very near the top of the first box we looked in ;D ;D
Milly :)
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Thanks Milly when you went to Kew what did you look under ?did you just look under his name? sorry to sound so stupid but a whole box of what?
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Hi
If you follow the link in my Reply #5 it tells you about the papers for men discharged between 1900 and 1913. These are in series WO97 in Kew. WO= War Office. These are what Milly is referring to. They are loose papers in a cardboard box covering men in a given alphabetical range of surname. So you do not need to know the man's regiment as all army units are included.
Ken
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Thanks Ken, his name was Frederick Charles Allsopp born 1883 Staffordshire also fought in WW1 and survived
the only frederick c I could find in the archives is as follows WO 372/1 Medal card of Allsopp, Frederick C
Corps: Royal Garrison Artillery
Regiment No: 35635
Rank: Gunner...
69819 / 40226
I tried to download the medal card for you as I have free access, but htere is a technical problem with the link this morning. If I remember, I'll try again later
monique
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got it now-I've pmd you
doesn't add much I'm afraid
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Thanks Milly when you went to Kew what did you look under ?did you just look under his name? sorry to sound so stupid but a whole box of what?
Hi Mallow - Ken has answered the question - yes it was W097. The fabulous thing is that it is the original paperwork and not copies. So you actually look through piles of original service/attestation papers as signed by the person at the time. Amazing - and well worth doing!
Milly
;D
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Millie,
I've just checked WO97, on line TNA, as wellas WO126-129 for a relative who is missing from 1881 census. He's on all the others from 1871 - 1901 and my hubby's aunty (his granddaughter) was sure he was in the Army. Couldn't find a thing. Just wondering if you found your man on the on-line index or whther you just took a gamble going to Kew?
Does anyone else know whether the on-line catalogue is complete for these files?
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Thank you Ken Milly and mc8 for all your help, as I live in Ireland I have no access to Kew, so I will have to make the trip over to find out any more I would need to see something with his address or next of kin on to know if he was mine :)
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Does anyone else know whether the on-line catalogue is complete for these files?
Apart from what Ancestry are doing with the WW1 papers, the only index on line is for men discharged up to 1854. The dates you see next to the WO97 reference are the dates the man served. These indexes were compiled by the Friends of the PRO/TNA, and cover the files which have been microfilmed. This was a particularly useful exercise as the original papers were filed by regiment, so you had to know the man’s regiment to have a chance of discovering if his papers survive.
Surviving papers for men discharged between 1855 and 1913 (inclusive) are only available as original documents in the boxes we have been discussing. The way these are filed changes a few times, and you really need to follow the information given on the TNA site starting with the 'step4' link. The advantage is that you, or your researcher, can take your own digital pictures.
Ken
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Millie,
I've just checked WO97, on line TNA, as wellas WO126-129 for a relative who is missing from 1881 census. He's on all the others from 1871 - 1901 and my hubby's aunty (his granddaughter) was sure he was in the Army. Couldn't find a thing. Just wondering if you found your man on the on-line index or whther you just took a gamble going to Kew?
Does anyone else know whether the on-line catalogue is complete for these files?
It was about 18 months ago that I did it and I had someone with me who ordered the box up for me - but from what I remember I didn't have any specific information on my man - just an idea he may have been in the army and that he came out before he married in 1906.
I think we just ordered up the relevant box for the letter of the surname we wanted and looked through it. We did the same for my friends grandfather and found his papers that way too.
It was the first time I had been to Kew and I remember being a little bewildered by it all. My friend seemed to know how to order the box up - I just kind of followed along behind. And then a few minutes later there were the papers I was after!
I think it was easy because the dates we were after were stored alphabetically rather than earlier dates which would have been stored by Regiment (Have I got that right Kew experts?) ;D
Milly
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OH 8)Milly you make it sound so simple , I just hope when I manage to get there that all will be revealed like yours was, it would fill in a huge part of Grandfathers life which we know nothing about.
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Thanks all,
That's great information - I have NEVER been to Kew although I have been to local archives i.e. The Centre for Kentish Studies - I have a readers card which I believe allows me to use all archive centres in the country so I must pluck up the courage to go.
Jane
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I have a readers card which I believe allows me to use all archive centres in the country
The TNA ticket has a magnetic stripe to use to gain entry. Your ticket will not allow that. You can enroll online, and just take the ID they require along with you.
Ken
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Kew is great once you get used to it. I've been really lucky and found quite a few of mine -
I have not ventured beyond military service records yet but next time I go I plan to be a little more adventurous.
;D
Milly
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Thaks K ::)en, Milly and all,
I have just been to my seminar - I'm doing a local history course - and I asked about the reader card thing there. My tutor put me right as well. At least I know and my husband has said he wants to come with me - well it is one of his I'm looking ofr- so we are going to bite the bullet and go at the end of next week when we both have a day off. Wish us luck!
Jane ::)
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Hi Jane .... take a digital camera with you as you can take photos of any documents you find really easily...even ones on microfilm come out OK sometimes. You can also take a laptop if you have one
and make a list of all the people you are interested in with dob and addresses so that you don't forget anyone. I checked all my men of the right age against the WW1 records and found quite a few just by chance. (using birth place and next of kin to identify them).
Have fun
Milly ;D
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If you are going to Kew for the first time, here are a few tips to help you make the most of it. Milly is right that it can be rather bewildering (especailly ath the moment while the major refurbishments are going on.
There is a lot of useful infromation on TNA's website, in particular the Research Guides on some of the most popular subjects (nearly 300 at the last count, listed alphabeticall but you can search by key word too) www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1)
It is also worth clicking on the 'Visit us' tab for details about Readers' Tickets, how to get there, opening hours etc.
You can also practise using the online catalogue, which will save you time when you get there, even though you can't order documents in advance at the moment, while there is reduced capacity in the reading rooms.
While space is limited, make sure you get there as early as you can, because you may have to wait for a seat to become vacant later in the day if it is busy.
And one tip about those lovely boxes of WO97 army records. Within each box they are supposed to be in alphabetical order, and they usually are, but papers do get out of order, so if you don't find your man where he should be, look through the whole box, just in case.
Enjoy your day.
Mean_genie
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Thanks Milly and mean genie,
All advice taken on board - we will try to get there as early as we can - don't live too far away - in kent so it will be round the M25 (Yuk) - Have downloaded the directions.
The advice about digital camera - very useful as was your stuff mean genie.
Jane
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Just to let you know that we made our very first trip to Kew National Archives on Friday and had a great time. We didn't get the chance to look in the boxes as described above because by the time we'd done some other stuff all the tables were taken (there are a limited number at the moment due to the renovations) BUT we found not one but two relatives in the 'burnt out' records. Surprising as one of them shouldn't have been there. He rejoined the army in 1924 and apparently all his records should have been transferred to his new regiment then. We only had the bit in the middle - Dorset regiment where he went after repatriation in 1919 following b eing a P.O.W. There are no records of his early WW1 service in the Yorkshire Regiment or his subsequent service in the KOYLI. I am guessing that they did transfer the Yorkshire bit and somehow left behind the middle regiment.
Also struck lucky with medal cards and part of my Grandad' naval service pre 1929 - he actually served right through from WW1 to the 1960s.
Many thanks again for the encouragement. We shall return!
Jane
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Glad you had such a successful day Jane..
Milly ;D