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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: HogHedge on Wednesday 09 January 08 23:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Please can someone identify the ship, rank, unit and decorations the person in this photo had?
I believe it was taken in the 1920s. If I am right I think he may have had a lucky escape..
Thanks
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Hi,
Your man is a Chief Petty Officer Royal Navy, unfortunately you will not be able to identify the ship or ships he served on without his service record.
I will have a look at his medals when I get home tonight unless someone else gets there first.
Salty
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Thanks Salty,
I have the service record (upto 1928) of the person who I think it shows and a summary of his career is:-
13 Sep 1910 HMS Ganges II (Broadside ironclad frigate)
13 Sep 1910 Boy 2nd Class
13 Dec 1910 Boy 1st Class
7 Jan 1911 HMS Hannibal (Battleship)
21 Mar 1911 Ordinary Seaman
19 May 1911 HMS Jupiter (1st Class pre-Dreadnought Battleship)
6 Jun 1911 HMS Dreadnaught (Battleship)
14 Aug 1912 Able Seaman
1 Jul 1913 HMS Excellent, Portsmouth, Hants
2 Feb 1914 HMS Sirius (Twin Screw Cruiser, Second Class ; later Light Cruiser)
7 Mar 1914 HMS Odin (Sloop)
13 Mar 1917 HMS Excellent, Portsmouth, Hants
1 Apr 1917 Leading Seaman
4 Nov 1917 HMS Mersey (Cruiser, 2nd Class)
1 Oct 1918 Petty Officer
17 May 1919 HMS Victory I
16 Oct 1919 HMS Dido (Destroyer Depot Ship ; late Light Cruiser ; late 2nd Class Cruiser)
2 Jun 1920 HMS Victory I
1 Aug 1920 HMS Victory III
1 Aug 1920 Regulating Petty Officer
9 Mar 1921 HMS Iron Duke (Central battery ironclad)
24 Mar 1923 HMS Victory II, Crystal Palace, Surrey
20 Oct 1925 HMS Barham (3rd rate)
12 Jun 1928 HMS Victory II, Crystal Palace, Surrey
Unfortunately it costs about £70 to get the service record for someone post 1928. I was hoping the photo was taken post 1928 and would confirm his final rank and ship. I was hoping it showed someone in the Regulating branch and that the sword represented being Master Of Arms.
Does any of this tally with the photo? What year was it taken?
Thanks
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It is possible the photo was taken post 1928.
Looking at the record you have put up he was made a Regulating Petty Officer in 1920 whilst at HMS Victory 111. I would hesitate to suggest that he may well have been promoted to Chief Regulating PO whilst at HMS Victory 11 after the end of your record.
The photo would fit with that of a Chief Reg PO.
Salty
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Re the medals he's wearing, we could do with seeing a little but more detail really.
Any chance you could rescan just that area at the best resolution you can get?
Neil
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Thanks Salty,
Looking at the service record again the rank does change when he was posted to the Barham in 1925 from RPO to RPO (2). What is the difference?
There is a stamp at the bottom of the record which says something like "RECORD TRANSFERRED to CARD as from 1 Jan 1929" so this is why I think he carried on past 1928 but perhaps I am misreading it. I am attaching the last card of his service record that I have got. If any of the comments on the right make any sense to you let me know; having good handwriting doesn't seem to be an essential part of a navy clark's job.
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Hi Neil1821,
I will try to see if I can get a better scan this weekend.
In the meantime I think I have another picture of him on his wedding day in 1921. He is in the middle and, according to his service card, should have been a Regulating Petty Officer at HMS Victory III at the time. The sailor on his left might be his brother Alfred who was a Stoker 1st class in 1921 on the HMS Centurion. Alfred seems to have been the opposite of William in that his service record lists several "Detentions for Absence" from 1919 onwards and was eventually discharged. In his defence, he had started a young family around the time, so maybe it was related to family difficulties.
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Hi HogHedge !
I wonder if your Alfred could have joined the Navy later ! .... I found this - looks interesting !! :-\
Alfred Ticehurst is probably the Alfred Ticehurst born at Plumpton in 1895 whose birth was registered at Lewes in the September quarter of that year.
He appears on the 1901 census living at Frenches Farm in the civil parish of Heathfield (part of the rural district of Hailsham, East Sussex). Family members recorded are: James F Ticehurst, a 43 year old farrier and head of the family, and his wife Elizabeth aged 45. The couple had four children living with them when the census was taken: Frederick A Ticehurst (aged 18 and working as a baker), Dorothy Ticehurst (aged ten), William Ticehurst (aged eight) and Alfred (aged five).
Chailey Parish Magazine notes in March 1915 that Alfred Ticehurst is serving his King and Country. In October 1915 it notes that he is a driver with the ASC in France. By December 1917 however, he is recorded as Rifleman A Ticehurst, serving with the 2/5th London Regiment and this is the information which is then repeated monthly up to and including the final entry in July 1919.
The National Archives’ on-line medal index card notes the following:
Ticehurst, Alfred
Army Service Corps, T1/4145, Driver
London Regiment, TF/575810, Driver
London Regiment, B/201564, Driver
The 2/5th City of London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade) formed part of the 174th Brigade in the 58th Division and landed in France on 25th January 1917. It was disbanded in February 1919 so Alfred Ticehurst must have transferred to another battalion when this happened.
Sources & Acknowledgements:
1901 Census of England & Wales
Chailey Parish Magazine
The National Archives: Medal Index Card
http://www.chailey1914-1918.net/alfred_ticehurst.html
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Sorry Annie, those are two other Ticehursts. Alfred was in the navy from 1912-22. He had a brother called Archie (A.Ticehurst) in the ASC, a cousin and an uncle both called Alfred and a third cousin also called Alfred who died in 1915. And they moved around villages..
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Isn't it a pain when they all have the same name and live in the same place ?? ::) ::) ::)
My family is like that too I'm afraid !!
So are the two I found related at all or no ??
Annie :)
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Probably, but getting more distant.
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Hi HogHedge,
your photo is definitely one of a Master at Arms as shown by his lapel badges and the sword. A Master at Arms was the only NCO allowed to have a sword I believe.
easy12
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Thanks Easy,
Yes I had read that about swords too. Just found a good page on the Regulating Branch at http://www.rba93.com/history.htm. It says:-
"In 1879, to indicate his special position, the M.A.A. was permitted to wear a frock coat and carry a sword. To be distinguishable from the officers' dress, the coat was to have 4 buttons instead of 5 and the sword was to be plain with a black hilt."
The sword and buttons fit in with the photo but not sure about the sword.
I had assumed the lapel badge was just a standard RN badge but the Master At Arms did seem to have a crown in a wreath badge as displayed here:- http://www.kellybadge.co.uk/images/M2O503.jpg. Not sure if my photo shows this; it is difinitely a wreath but what is in it is dufficult to make out.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to get my hands on the original of the picture to try re-scanning it. Best I could do was to try enhancing the contrast, etc. to get a better view of the medals.
He seems to have 4 round ones and a star. I guess the star is the WW1 1914-15 Royal Navy Star and two of the round ones must be the WW1 Victory Medal and British War Medal medals? Could one of the others be a Royal Navy Long Service & Good Conduct Medal?
Thanks,
hogHedge
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Medals from left to right are:
Naval General Service medal 1915-62 with clasp for Persian Gulf 1914
1914-15 Star
British War medal
Victory medal
Long Service & Good Conduct medal
The star looks obvious, from which we can infer the BWM and VM.
LSGC award is given on the page of the service record that you've posted (right hand column near the bottom says "Gtd LSGC medal")
Since the first medal is before the star it has to be something pre WW1. HMS Odin was one of the ships eligible for the NGS for Persian Gulf 1914 and given that your man was on the Odin at the right time.....
http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/united-kingdom034.htm
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Thanks Neil,
Arms runners in the Gulf. Nothing changes..
It sounds like the picture does fit with family legend.
I said earlier that I thought he had a lucky escape and I was referring to the theory that he finished his navy days as a Master At Arms on the HMS Hood. Luckily it seems he left the navy before WW2 so avoided being sunk by the Bismarck:-)
Am not sure when he left as he originally signed up for 12 years in 1911 but was still going strong in 1928. Perhaps he was also recalled/volunteered in WW2 (he would have been 46 in 1939) to the merchant navy or something.
I have also noticed something else. In the remarks section of his service card there is an entry which says "Passed for K.R.A 15.9.24" or similar. Below his record is the record for another person who was also a Regulating Petty Officer and in their remarks section it says "Passed for M.A.A 17.9.23". Could William's record really read "Passed for M.A.A", but in bad handwriting, and for it to stand for "Passed for Master At Arms"?
Thanks Again,
Hedgehog
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I have also noticed something else. In the remarks section of his service card there is an entry which says "Passed for K.R.A 15.9.24" or similar. Below his record is the record for another person who was also a Regulating Petty Officer and in their remarks section it says "Passed for M.A.A 17.9.23". Could William's record really read "Passed for M.A.A", but in bad handwriting, and for it to stand for "Passed for Master At Arms"?
That's how I read it too, passed for MAA 17/9/24.
A bit more about HMS Odin in the Gulf 1914, secion titles Indian Expeditionary Force D
http://www.king-emperor.com/article2.htm
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Oil. Looting in Basra. I think we must have got the dates mixed up ;)