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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: grandarog on Tuesday 08 January 08 21:31 GMT (UK)
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Hello Australia
12 December 2010
Hi All Down Under,
I thought I would give my post a nudge up and maybe someone will have a new ancestor for Xmas.
Sam is not related to my family.
I just hope he will find one of you to add him to yours. Please read the post thoroughly to save any confusion.
Good Luck and Merry Christmas Rog
This is a transcript of a postcard sent to my Mums favourite brother, my Uncle John(Jack)Waghorn at Chilham in Kent from his best mate Sam.
Hannam St. Arncliff Sidney NSW
Dear Jack,
We arrived here after our long journey, we had it rough at times. Made us sea sick, funny feeling it is, but we soon got over it. We all got off at Cape Town. Had a good look round, but we couldn’t see much for the wind blew a hurricane the air was thick with dust, we soon had enough of Cape Town. We landed here Feb 22nd 1913 (Port) the harbour was a lovely sight as well as Sidney. Our house is about 6 miles from Sidney. I am going up country soon so will tell you all about it. Dont forget to write when you are coming. Better be soon.. From Sam.
Unfortunately John(Jack) never made it to Australia to join Sam as WW 1 broke out in 1914 and Jack died on Active service in Palestine in 1918 aged 22.
I have never been able to trace Sam’s Surname or age presumably about the same as Jack. My Mum has been long gone and I can never recall her using his surname just referred to him as her brothers best friend. I have often wondered who he was and how he got on ,now nearly 100 years later this may help you find a bit more about your ancestor Sam and answer my wonderings.
Best Wishes Rog.
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Hi
Have you tried searching the passenger lists on findmypast.com I'm not sure if they give arrival dates but its worth a look.
Bob
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Cheers Bob ,
I found 2 Ship Arrivals ages ago for Sydney,22 feb 1913, Sharnhorst was one I cant recall the other. But the Samuels on the lists were way off in age and surname. Tongue in cheek I think his surname was probably Coppins but I dont have any proof thats why I ommitted from post.
I really am hoping to delight someone in Aus who can recognise him in their family tree.
Sam is purely of interest to me but could be of signifigant importance to a descendant. Thats the main reason I posted.
Thanks for your input ,
Regards, Rog.
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Rog
Did Sam die serving in the Aussie or British army? We have a National Archive that can be searched for WWI soldiers, it is a very good sight. Just Google National Archives of Australia and search as a guest. Most of the records of WWI soldiers are listed and you can download the digital copies for free. If it was our army he served in, his enlistment papers will be there with his signature and his next of kin. It could well be worth a shot. I did a quick search on Coppins and Coppin, there were quite a few, but no Sam's. He could have just been called Sam and his name could be something else, but I am at work so no time to check places of birth etc, but they are listed as POB, so if you care to check you could find him in there
Good Luck
Lones
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Rog
This might not help, but was your Uncle John married before Sam left for Australia. If he was, Sam might have been a witness at your Uncle's wedding and his name could be on the marriage certificate.
Regards
em
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What about the NSW Post Office Directories?
Regards BrianT
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Hello thee
it would appear after reading the postcard that Sam did not travel alone
assuming he was roughly the same age as his best friend in 1913 he was about 17 So he may have come with his family or even a wife!
By the Sand Directory for NSW in that time frame there was a George coppins living in Arncliffe but not the same address. Unfortunately you can only search by name and not the actual address.
It is more than likely he of course the missing Sam that is could have also fought in the great War.
kind regards Jenn
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Dear Jenn,
Thank you Jenn ,,(and Brian, Em, lones ,Bob) for your input.
I had better clear up a few points.
1. Sam is not related to our family.
2. He was a friend /mate of John/Jack. prior to emigrating.
3. As far as I am aware there was never any more contact from Sam after this postcard.
4. Obviously I have no idea if he served in the Australian Army or even stayed in Aus.
5. I have no idea if he lived or died in or after WW1(even whether he servred or not,I haven't found any references to a Sam Coppins))
6. I put this post on more for the benefit of possible descendants of Sam in Aus who would recognise from it.
Jenn thank you for reading the transcript thoroughly. The George Coppins adds fuel to my belief the Surname was Coppins. Presumeably they could have moved about in temporary accomodation when they first arrived. Sam states he was going upcountry but dont know if alone or wityh parents.
I assume that Sam travelled with his parents and Siblings.
If I am right that his surname was Coppins they were
Father George Coppins age 55 ish on arrival in Australia in 1913
Mother Annie Coppins age 54 --------ll-------------
Sis. Nellie Coppins age 22 --------ll------------
Sam Coppins age 19 --------ll------------
Bro. Thomas Coppins age 16 --------ll------------
Bro . James Coppins age 12 ------- ll------------
This is pure assumption ,his Sister Nellie at 22 may not have gone with them .
In fact Sam may have travelled alone and merely referred to friends he had made on board. The ref to our house could have been digs he was staying at.
If some one in Australia recognises him as one of their Ancestors I will be happy as that was the orriginal idea. I have done quite a lot of digging arround for info but your George is the first semi positive so far. (Unproven as a connection but a possible)
In truth Sam may have been someone else altogether!!
Best Wishes to you all
Thanks again Rog.
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Hi All Down Under, :)
I thought I would give my post a nudge up and maybe someone will have a new ancestor for Xmas.
Sam is not related to my family.
I just hope he will find one of you to add him to yours. Please read the post thoroughly to save any confusion.
Good Luck and Merry Christmas Rog :D ;D
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Hi Rog,
Re George Coppins and Arncliffe...
The 1903 NSW Electoral Roll (ie ten years earlier than the post card) has :
George Henry COPPINS at Gipps St Arncliffe, a labourer
Lily COPPINS at Gipps St Arncliffe, at her domestic duties
There are likely births to that couple on the NSW BDM index (Rockdale, Newtown, are suburbs of Sydney) http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
Some questions
What is on the 'other' side of the postcard .... is there a photo etc ... maybe you could scan and attach it
Have you looked for ships arriving in Sydney (Port Jackson)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home this is the link to the digitised online newspapers (these were not available back in 2008) I think the Sydney Morning Herald paper should give the best results .... "Shipping" as a keyword may help isolate the likely ship that sailed via Cape Town arriving Sydney 22 Feb 1913
Where would that voyage have likely started ?
Cheers, JM
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Thanks Majm,
I will leave the research to anyone down there that thinks he may be their kin . The post card has generic view of Capetown (he must have bought too many en route .LOL)so not applicable.
Dont put to much on the Coppins Name Even more so as the Coppins family were there before Sam left UK. All that is Definite is his Name Samuel known as Sam
Regards Roger.
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I think I may have found him :D Glad he had a surname starting with B ::)
Source: The AIF Project website
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=14332
Mo
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Great Find Mo ;D
Departed London 11 Jan 1913 aboard the WAIMANA ticketed to Sydney (Ship destined for New Zealand.)
BARNES Mrs E 42 Housewife
BARNES Saml Son 17
BARNES Isabella Dau 13
BARNES Winifred Child 10
BARNES Cora Child 8
BARNES Dorothy Child 4
The WAIMANA expected to Arrive in Sydney late on Feb 21 or early Sat Morning (the 22nd)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15399881?searchTerm="WAIMANA
Cheers Kris :)
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Thank you both. :) ;D
I think you have cracked it. He is the same age as John/Jack ,great. Now with a Surname, at least someone may be able to claim him .
The passenger list only seems to be some of the Family maybe Father Charles had precededed them and some of the kids stayed in England and they took some of the other Barnes kids from Chilham . Have to onvestigate that enigma now.
Here is Sam with his family in 1901 living at. 4, Mountain Street ,Chilham .
BARNES, Charles Head Married M 29 Journeyman Baker Ashford Kent
BARNES, Eliza Wife Married F 32 Chilham Kent
BARNES, Elia Daughter 7 Kennington Kent
BARNES, Saml Son 5 Chilham
BARNES, Edwin Son 3 Chilham
BARNES, Isabella Daughter 2 Chilham
BARNES, William Son 1 Chilham
BARNES, Percy Son 1 Month Chilham
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Looks like Percy died....
Percy Barns - birth
2Q 1901 East Ashford Kent 2a 883
Percy Barns - death
Est birth abt 1901
3Q 1901 East Ashford Kent 2a 531
Age at Death: 0
Laurina
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And so did William .....
William Henry Barns - birth
1Q 1900 East Ashford Kent 2a 872
William Henry Barns
Est birth abt 1900
2Q 1901 East Ashford Kent 2a 487
Age at Death: 1
Laurina
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Marriage for Samuel's parents
Charlie Ernest Barnes / Bertha Stanford
4Q 1892 East Ashford Kent 2a 1518
Maybe someone can find a record for Charlie Ernest Barnes going to Australia/New Zealand, possibly with his son Edwin Ernest Barnes b.1Q 1898
Laurina
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Post deleted as since found incorrect ,Sorry for confusion. :-[
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Was just going to add in that Edwin Charles BARNS also served in WW1
the death of both boys
reg no 57389/1972 BARNS SAMUEL CHARLES
father ERNEST CHARLES mother ELIZABETH BERTHA
district BURWOOD
reg no 66361/1973
BARNS EDWIN ERNEST
father CHARLES ERNEST mother ELIZABETH BERTHA
district CAMPSIE
JEnn
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Departed London 17 Nov 1911 aboard the BALLARAT They were ticketed to Sydney
BARNES Charles Ernest Carpenter
BARNES Edwin Ernest
Occupation very different to census provided but we do have a Charles and an Edwin - No further information
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi krisesjoint Thanks for all your looking up for this tthread,Thats the Faversham Barnes and his Son he was a Carpenter. Both families named sons Samuel and Edwin . The Sam from Chilham that was my Uncle Jack's best friend was the son of Charles and Eliza. Sams Dad Charles was a Baker .I have not found a departure for him yet. You seem much better at finding Passengers. Rog
Again my appologies this is incorrect info :-[ :-[ Rog
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Is this Sam's Dad?
Charles Ernest BARNS died 1951 North Sydney
father: Samuel West
mother: Mary Ann
Mo
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Thanks Momamg . :)
Yes it probably is , on the 1881 census his Parents are shown as Samuel W and Mary Barnes,
This is also borne out by the tradition of naming the first son after his grandad.
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Am at a bit of a loss here, IS this the right Sam or not?
A search of the NAA record base reveals Sam BARNS as the only Sam/Samuel born in Chillingham England
But then he may not have served in WW1
Jenn
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I have to admit I'm totally confused with all the Sam's, Charles' and BARN/ES :P
Had a look for any marriage for Sam last night in NSW but only with the BARNS spelling. Didn't find anything.
Mo
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Samuel Charles BARNS is in 1936 and 1937 electoral rolls with wife Nancy at Ashfield.
In 1943 he is at Belmore with Nancy and a possible daughter.
1949 and 1954 same address but only Sam and Nancy.
So it's possible his daughter may be alive...
Mo
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Hi there,
You can find the signature of S C Barns (Samuel Charles Barns) from his AIF enlistment papers .... Please compare this with the handwriting on the postcard. He enlisted in June 1915, so I presume the handwriting should be similar to that postcard :)
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch/index.aspx search as a guest using keywords Samuel Charles Barns the barcode is 3051873. There's 25 pages digitised for Samuel, son of Charles Ernest Barns, and the signature at page 1, and again at page 2 is from 1915. Further into the pages, at page 17 is the mature signature from 1967.
I think it would be worthwhile comparing the 1915 and the 1913 signatures.
Cheers,
JM
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Now that is an excellent idea Majm :)
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I see by his WW1 record that he did some work with a photographer in Stroud Gshire.
There is a marriage for a Samuel Barnes in Goustershire but I cannot find his spouses name
Jenn
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:)
Samuel C Barns marriage Q3 1919 at Stroud, Gloucestershire Vol 6a page 1053
Surname of Spouse : STONE :) (Sorry have not found her given names)
Cheers, JM
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:)
Nancy Stone marriage Q3 1919 at Stroud, Gloucestershire page 1053 (no volume number on my index) to BARNE
;D ;D (difficult to read this particular part of that index)
Nancy Barns at same address as Samuel Charles Barns on those electoral rolls for NSW as mentioned by Mo ;)
Samuel Charles BARNS is in 1936 and 1937 electoral rolls with wife Nancy at Ashfield.
In 1943 he is at Belmore with Nancy and a possible daughter.
1949 and 1954 same address but only Sam and Nancy.
So it's possible his daughter may be alive...
Mo
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Ryerson Index http://www.ryersonindex.org/
death of Samuel Charles Barns, 5 July 1972 late of Belmore aged 77, notice indexed as SMH 6 July 1972
NSW BDM
death of Nancy BARNS, (parents George Edwin and Adele) ref 28129/1977
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1901
RG13; 1907; 50; 8.
Swindon, Wilts
Interestingly
George E Stone's occupation : Photographic Artist :)
his wife was born Ashford Kent :)
Cheers, JM
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A previous interest by a RootsChatter in Nancy STONE ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,325398.0.html
Cheers Kris :)
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I also found them on the 1930 rolls for NSW
he as BARNES
but Nancy as BARNS :D
Jenn
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A previous interest by a RootsChatter in Nancy STONE ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,325398.0.html
Cheers Kris :)
You know when I was reading the WW1 dosier I thought this is so familiar with the photographic bloke :)
small world thanks to the rootschat teams ;)
Jenn
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I wish Rog would hurry up and wake up - I've been watching this topic all day and I am dying to know if the hand writing is similar.
:o Ted
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:)
I'm hoping so too Ted :) I'm even hoping Rog will attach a scan of the postcard
The pilot site has Samuel Charles Barns christening indexed as 10 Nov 1895 ;)
https://beta.familysearch.org/
Cheers, JM
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Morning All, :)
Yawn Yawn, O what a tangled web I have woven for you. Having been up very late last night. I think I have finally sorted out the confusion.
There is only "ONE" Sam and family . In 1901 they living at Chilham .
In 1911 having moved a few miles they are living at Badlesmere (just down the road).
William and Percy have Died by then and they have had 3 more children, Winnifred, Cora and Dorothy.
Charles has since become a Carpenter having changed jobs from a Journeyman Baker in the previous 10 years.
As you Marvelous Chatters have found He and Edwin Emmigrated on the" Ballarat" in 1911 (After the Census).
Mum then followed with the Kids in 1913 on the" Waimana".
" Mrs E"- "Eliza"-" Elizabeth Bertha" and" Bertha" are various names Sams mum used during this Saga just to make it more complicated.
Why she declared the 3 girls as Children and not Daughters on the Passenger list remains a mystery unless it was normal for younger passengers to be listed that way.
I have the birth date of Sam from FBMD Samuel Charles Barns (No E) as
Dec 1895 E.Ashford 2A 763
E Ashford is the Reg District for Chilham .
So now apart from what happened to the Daughter "Elia" on the 1901 census all is plain to see now the mud has cleared.
I am so glad this has come out so well, as now Sams Descendants can find out all about his early life.
I must really say a big thankyou to you all for spending so much time and also having to contend with my earlier erroneus babbling. :-[
Bless you, All Roger. :D ;D
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Heres the Postcard,from Sam to Jack from Aus and one from 1912when he was at Herne Bay by the PostMark. sorry dont scan to well
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:)
The 1d and the 1/2d stamps !!!
And I think the handwriting matches up tooooooooooooo :)
Thanks Roger
Happy Christmas, JM
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a little further for interest
in 1923 on the Jervis Bay
travelling to England
Nancy Barns aged 25
Vida aged 2 1/2
Jean Adele aged 1 1/2
address in England The Studio, London Road Stroud
So she took the two children back to England for a visit.
Jenn
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As an aside,
I think that the 1d stamp has some historic importance, perhaps Roger it would be worthwhile checking with a philatelic person. I think the stamp on that postcard from Australia could be among the earliest stamps issued with "Australia" on them. I'm not sure, but I think our stamps commenced using that expression in around January 1913. My oral history says that these stamps had the Kangaroo and the map of Australia on them because the then Prime Minister (Fisher) wanted to placate the Republican movement, and that the next Prime Minister (Cook) then organised for a separate set to be designed showing George V. So that for many years there was two sets of stamps available, one with Kangaroo and one with George V.
Cheers, JM
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Wow Majm :) :o,
Do you think I could strike gold with the Stamp ,I keep trying on the Lotto with no luck ::)so I could do with a windfall. Will have to discretely ask arround . Thanks for the info. Rog :D ;D
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Hi there - I did my friend's family tree for her - well part of it! A lot of the names you mention are very familiar, especially with the photographic links. I also recognise Nancy and Cora. I initially made her tree on 'My Heritage' but I don't know if it is still on there.
If you want to contact me directl, my e-mail address is (*)
Kind regards
Christine
Moderator Comment: email address removed to help prevent spam and other abuses, as per RootsChat policy. Please use our secure PM (personal message) system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
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Hi All :),
Having read through the 25 pages of Sams Service Records , I now know that he returned to Aus after WW1 with his new wife Nancy on board the "Kigoma" 18/7/20 which according to an earlier reference was a "family ship" .
I presume that meant it was chartered specially to carry returning service men that had families in England .
Has any one access to the passenger list or maybe if it was completely Military there isnt one on line.
Cheers Rog :D ;D
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:)
I had been looking ;) through newspapers, but not found passenger lists there.
I did find interesting article though about the ship ! Seems she was part of the reparations from Germany to Britain, http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11483094 newspaper from Tasmania The Mercury Wednesday 21 July 1920. Also Arrival into Sydney http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15898136 SMH 17 July 1920
That was a great find by Jenn ;) with Nancy and her wee Barns ;) on a holiday to UK in 1923 ;)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks Majm ,:) ;)
Another great Find. 8) I see the Sydney article spelt the Ships name Kigormi instead of Kigoma. ???
Thanks Rog. :D ;D
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Hi all .
Just bumping this up from 14 / 16 years ago, for any folks particularly newcomers that may want a good read and possibly be related to Sam. :)
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:) Yes, it was a pretty good read, Rog ... and it also stands as an example, a reminder, of the "records" that were accessible way back then. ;D [ How times have changed. ;) ]
Big Cheers to those who participated and contributed to the thread - great teamwork !! :) :)
Amongst family trees appearing at the ancestry.com website, there are now some 16 trees for
Samuel Charles BARNS.
~ Lu