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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 01:25 GMT (UK)

Title: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 01:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Guys

My dad's great uncle Harold is a bit of a mystery as my father knows next to nothing about him.

He was born in 1908 in Ashton under Lyne, Lancashire. In 1946 he married Alice Brayshaw and had a daughter Christine in 1947. He and Alice separated around 1959 and my father has not had contact with Christine ever since. Harold died in 1969.

I have three photos of Harold - each in some form of uniform.

The first when he was very young - I have no idea what uniform this is - it is more likely to be something from between WWI and WWII but no real idea.

I will post the second and third photos separately!

Any help will be much appreciated!

Alex
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 01:28 GMT (UK)
Here is the second photo - quite a bit older - I think the cap badge is one of the Royal Artillery Corps but not sure which one...

Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 01:29 GMT (UK)
And the final one I think is taken a bit after - he seems to have changed again! No idea what the cap badge is!

Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: liverpool annie on Tuesday 08 January 08 04:04 GMT (UK)


Hi Mrs Tibbetts !

I think the first picture maybe Boys Brigade ....... can't quite see the badge .... but it should have an anchor similar to this  !!  :)
The second is Royal Artillery
And the third I think is the Royal Army Service Corps - I can see the crown but I can't see the points !! ( but he's wearing jodhpurs ? ) and he's a Corporal with overseas chevrons - looks like a marksmans patch or signals (?) ( Can't quite see !!  :-\ ) I don't know what that arm band is  :-\

Annie  :)


Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: liverpool annie on Tuesday 08 January 08 04:28 GMT (UK)

Are you sure this is Harold ?? this looks like it's WW1 not 2 !! .... he has pleated breast pockets - Mack says this was stopped after the middle of 1916 to save on material !!

Here's an RASC badge ..... what do you think ?


Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: scrimnet on Tuesday 08 January 08 09:01 GMT (UK)
The first one is deffo Boys Brigade  ;)

The next are all WW1

The second is Royal Artillery, but not mounted as his puttees are wound bottom to top, not top to bottom as a mounted trooper would wear  :D

The third is Royal Engineers, and on that one he is wearing his puttees as mounted!!!  ;D This pic is post 1918 as he is wearing overseas chevrons on his right bottom sleeve, and he is a signaller as per the arm band and crossed flags above his Cpls chevrons...
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 11:45 GMT (UK)
Wow - thank you so much.

I have to say I just assumed they were of Harold - their placement in my father's album was with the two sisters I know Harold had - Annie born 1898 - my great grandmother, and Dorothy born 1905.

The only photo I have that I definitely know is Harold is his wedding photo from 1946.

Is this the same man?

Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 11:50 GMT (UK)
Looking at it closely I dont think he is the same man as the one in the army uniforms!

Now I have no idea who he could be! The only thing I can think of is that he is on another side of my family - The Hallas's - possibly John Hallas born 1898.

I did wonder whether the younger photo was of the Boys Brigade but the cap badge looked quite different from what I could make out - but I could be wrong.

I dont really know of many people on my father's side who would have fought in WWI - the only one I definitely know about was James Large - father to Harold as I have his medal index card from TNA and Dad told me he was gassed in the trenches and lost his sense of smell.

What sort of era do you think the younger photo was taken - early WWI?

Thanks again

Alex
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: scrimnet on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:00 GMT (UK)
Looking at the collar (detached) on his shirt and the cut of the jacket...just pre WW1.

I think that all 3 of your original posts are the same chap...His mouth is held in the same manner!

Heres a link to the BB pages...

http://www.boys-brigade.org.uk/aboutus/earlyyrs.htm

There was a rhyme that I was taught as a child

Here comes the Boys Brigade
All covered in marmamlade
Tuppeny Ha'penny pillbox
And half a mile of braid


The pillbox refers to the style of hat....
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:02 GMT (UK)
I've just been looking through my tree to see who would have been old enough to have been in WWI - and I thought I would look at the husband of Dorothy Large - John aka Jack Quiggin born 1898 on the Isle of Man - I have their wedding photo - do you think this might be him? They married in 1933....

Thanks also Scrimnet for your expert advice!

x
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: mmm45 on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:02 GMT (UK)
Hi
Can anybody make out the possible Military Medal Ribbon above his left breast pocket??( the large pic)
Ady
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:04 GMT (UK)
Just checked out TNA documents online and found this:

Medal card of  Quiggin, J
Corps: Royal Engineers
Regiment No: 310879
Rank: Acting Corporal


Looks promising!!!

Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:14 GMT (UK)
Here is the medal card - definitely gives him as being in Signalling Company....

Thank you so much all of you!!
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: scrimnet on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:23 GMT (UK)
I think that last pic is your chap  :D....The bags under his eyes, and the slight downward / outward droop to them....
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:37 GMT (UK)
I wonder sometimes about my father....

Years ago when I started doing the family tree we sat and went through his photo album and I wrote down who everyone was - that he knew names for, and then methodically peeled the photos off the cardboard with his permission to see whether there was any writing underneath. Found some with writing on which was good. Then proceeded to scan in his photos so I could have copies.

He told me those photos were of Harold - and I naturally agreed with it and thought Dad knows best etc - and with their placement with the Large sisters Annie and Dorothy I didn't question it.

Also with Dad telling me his great grandfather (Annie and Dorothy's father) James aka Jammy having been in WWI and being gassed and me dutifully getting a medal card for him....

I sent him all the information just now again with the photos so he knew what I was talking about and you know what he said???

Yes - that was Jack Quiggin... he fought in WWI and was gassed...

Exasperatedly I say 'I thought you told me it was Jammy gassed in WWI?' - Dad: 'No - it was Jack....'

Mind you its not the first time he has confused himself....

While going through the photos looking at ones of his grandfather Albert Hallas he pointed out one of Albert's sister Sarah. I looked on 1901 census found the rest of the family and he goes 'I had no idea Albert had any siblings at all....' and I say 'Apart from Sarah who you have a photo of....'

Bless him....

Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: mmm45 on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:38 GMT (UK)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=4947718&queryType=1&resultcount=24

Heres J Quiggins campaign medal MIC link

Ady
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks Ady - I have already downloaded it and posted the pic of it on the thread!

x
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: mmm45 on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:44 GMT (UK)
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=30652&geotype=London&gpn=5035&type=ArchivedSupplementPage&all=quiggin&exact=&atleast=&similar=

Heres his LG entry for his Military Medal

He has 2 x MICs one for MM the other for campaign medals.

Ady
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:47 GMT (UK)
Oh thanks Ady

I was about to check out Gazettes Online for the Military Medal - I had only seen the one entry for J Quiggin on the medal cards - lesson number 1 - keep eyes peeled!!!

xxx
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 12:59 GMT (UK)
Here is the other medal card -

What does the Z mean in the remarks column? And for the British Medal section what do the 'd' and 'R' mean? Did he get that medal or not?

- Off to get on the exercise bike now so will be back later!

x
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: mmm45 on Tuesday 08 January 08 13:12 GMT (UK)
Hi
He was entitled to 1915 star,British War and Victory Medals
The "D" is ditto he entered war zone in france 12-7-15 with the RGA  royal garrision artillery the x is what would be engraved on his medals he must have been promoted quick as there is an x by cpl
the numbers and letters by the medals are references to the actual roll books at kew which would give dates overseas and unit.

Z means class z reserve most men on discharge went onto this basically if the war restarted they would be recalled

If you can find an artillery unit which entered france 12-7-15 you could pinpoint his unit.

Ady  :D
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 08 January 08 14:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks Ady

Do you reckon anyone on the WWI board might be able to help?

I've googled the date and Royal Garrison Artillery (guessing it was that from RGA!) but not really coming up with anything helpful.

The Gazette entry has 'Oldham' next to it so perhaps he was in a Lancs Regiment at least when he was in the Royal Engineers.

I am not sure when he moved to the Oldham area from the Isle of Man but certainly would have been there around the outbreak of WWI.

I am really pleased and so extremely thankful for everyone's help on this!

Its just said that Jack/John and Dorothy never had any children who I could pass this kind of information onto. Jack died in 1966 and Dorothy died in 1971. My little profile picture shows Dorothy at about 1 year old in 1906 on her mother's knee.

Thanks again!

Alex

Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: RobertS on Saturday 12 January 08 20:26 GMT (UK)
Hi,
Could the first photograph be the Church Lads Brigade. It was an anglican version of the BB. More popular in the north than south.
Regards
Robert
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: conijoni on Monday 29 September 08 21:32 BST (UK)
Last response was right. First picture is the CLB, Church Lads Brigade, which was very strong in the Manchester area. Still companies there today. Try this link. http://www.clcgb.org.uk/Looking%20Back.pdf
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: AlexNoodle on Tuesday 30 September 08 18:51 BST (UK)
Thank you for that - definitely looks right!
Title: Re: Help identifying Harold!
Post by: conijoni on Tuesday 30 September 08 21:22 BST (UK)
The CLB photograph is probably around 1910. He would have been at least 13 as that was the joining age, and as he has a stripe would have been a member a couple of years at least.