RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 07 January 08 14:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
I've recently been researching the life of a friend's ancestor who seems to have been very much a self-made man in the true tradition of the Victorian age. From employing a mere handful of people in 1861, by 1881 he had over 600 employees working for him in his jute spinning factory, of whom over 200 were children.
Now, I'd very much like to discover whether life in such a factory was as harsh as the cotton mills, like the one highlighted by Mrs Gaskell set in Manchester in 1851 in her novel "North and South".
Did the owner have an influence over how well the workers were treated and looked after?
Any links that would provide interesting reading on the subject of the jute mills would be much appreciated...
Very best wishes,
Keith
N.B. The man I've been tracking down was a William CLEGHORN, by the way, born in 1830, died in 1895
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hi keith
try this site for some info. -
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/dundee/verdantworks/index.html
i'm sure someone recently posted about dundee jute mills but i can't
find it
ev
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Ev,
Thanks very much for helping me - and it might have been me re the Jute Mills as I was asking for help with finding the CLEGHORN family on one of the Scottish County Boards earlier today. (Angus County)
In the 1861 Census he had been mistranscribed as a "Gaher Haste Derber", which presumably was meant to be some kind of Dealer, but I've been unable to find the original page to check it out yet...
keith
Reading my own post through, I'm beginning to think that it's complete gobbledegook, but William CLEGHORN certainly went on to do very well for himself in the Jute Spinning business in Dundee by 1881...
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Hi ev and Keith,
There's a post about the Dundee Mills (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,274940.msg1589721.html#msg1589721) is on the Angus (formerly Forfarshire) board.
William Cleghorn, (http://www.blairgowrie-sacrifice.co.uk/index.htm) head, 44, Jute Spinner & Manufacturer, b. Dundee, Bayfield, Dundee Road, Alyth, Perthshire is listed in the 1901 Census. The information is on the Blairgowrie Sacrifice site. Click on A-C to find him.
The Cleghorn name is remembered as there's a Cafe Cleghorn and a Cleghorn Street.
Christopher
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Thanks for that, Christopher,
That was William CLEGHORN, junior, son of the William born in 1830. Nice to think that the family name is remembered by place names...
keith
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I realise this topic is rather old but I am interested in this Cleghorn family because my great aunt stayed with them, in Logie House, in 1892. We have the diary she kept when she went 'home' for a visit (from Australia).
William was illegitimate and was born in Berwickshire. He was looked after by a family who took him to Dundee where they had a confectionary business. He trained as a confectioner then became a waste dealer before going into the jute business. My great aunt's grandmother was a Cleghorn but I can't find the link between her family and that of William.
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Hi again, Coops46,
I realise even more time has now elapsed (8 years) on this thread since you posted. But do you have the name of your aunt, for I've recently been trying to piece together William CLEGHORN'S family tree, armed with more information. I might be able to fit her in somewhere!
Keith
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Hi Keith
I have since cleared up the mystery. My-g-great grandmother was Jane Cleghorn. I discovered that William was the illegitimate son of Jane’s brother John, and was born in Chirnside, Berwickshire, 29 January 1830. His mother was Jean Waters. On 2 June 1832 John Cleghorn married Margaret Simpson, the daughter of Peter Simpson and Elizabeth Dewar. Her sister Isabella, who had married John Bonthron in 1829, took the young William to Dundee where she and John had a confectionery business. William trained as a confectioner then became a waste dealer before going into the jute business. He was a very successful businessman as shown by his occupation in the 1881 census; “Merchant & Jute Spinner emp 108 Men 284 Women 213 Children”. When William’s father, John Cleghorn, died in 1874, William was the informant so he obviously kept in touch with his family back in Berwickshire. This is also evidenced by Maggie’s visit, as recorded in her diary. William died in 1895. There is a street in Dundee named after him, near where Logie House used to stand.
Cheers
Russell Cooper
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Oh, good, Russell!
I was concerned that after 8 long years you might not be contactable still on Rootschat. I'm still trying to carefully piece the CLEGHORN tree together, and I realise there is much erroneous info on those Ancestry Public Member trees to wade through. Can I confirm with you that the John (1813-1874) who was father of William (1830-1895) was the son of William CLEGHORN (1778-1833) and Christiana (nee BROWN, b.1780-184?).
At the moment I have John's siblings as Peter, b.1798, Mary b.1800 and a Janet b.1806. Might this Janet be your gt-gt-grandma Jane, or were there other further siblings, including her?
And I've come across more conflicting "facts" about John CLEGHORN (1813-1874) regarding who and when he married. Though the fact that he had a child (William, who did so extraordinarily well for himself) by Jean WATERS when he was still 16 years old, and she 23 or 24, seems pretty much accurate.
However I read somewhere - though I don't think this actually happened - that he afterwards married Jean. Then there is the 1832 marriage to Margaret Simpson that you mention. But I have also come across a 14-08-1836 marriage at Hutton to a Helen Richardson. Can you possibly clarify things for me? Or debunk any of this?
And finally, does your family still possess what must be a fascinating diary that your great aunt wrote in 1892. Can I also ask where in the world you are now. If Australia, I must take into account the time difference between us in regard to getting swift responses to one another!
We can always continue this fascinating conversation via PM on Rootschat if you prefer...
Very best wishes, Keith
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...this is all so bizarre. Maybe John CLEGHORN continued his predilection for older women, for in 1832 he would have been only 19 years old, and Margaret SIMPSON (b.1797) would have 35 years old. That marriage and the three sons it seems to have produced are visible through the various subsequent Censuses.
That 1836 marriage to Helen RICHARDSON would have to be another John CLEGHORN, surely? Back to the drawing board, I think. The problem is that on Ancestry the Scottish original images cannot be seen, only the transcripts.
Keith
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I don't think I have the complete family of William Cleghorn (c 1768 - 1833) and Christian Brown (c 1776 - 1848) due to the gaps between births. I have William marrying Christian 31 March 1797 at Chirnside, Berwick.
I have the following Children:
Peter (1798 - 1873), married Euphemia Renton
Mary (1800 -?)
Janet (1801 - 1876), married Edward Bone
big gap
Jane (1812 - 1869), married Thomas Robertson (my g-g grandparents)
John (1813 - 1874), father of William (1830 - 1895) by Jean Waters the married Margaret Simpson (c 1895 - 1876). He was still married to Margaret Simpson when he died, illegitimate son, William, was the informant.
My great aunt Maggie was the granddaughter of Thomas and Jane Robertson. She was born in Edinburgh but came to Melbourne as a baby. Her family paid for her to return to Scotland in 1892-3 and she kept a diary of the trip during which she visited as many relatives as she could. Her daughter later typed the diaries which have since been lost but several copies of the typed version survive and they have provided a wealth of information.
I am in Melbourne. May I ask your whereabouts?
Cheers
Russell
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Russell,
It must be getting late in the day where you are then, but thanks very much for getting back to me again so swiftly. I've just come back to this CLEGHORN puzzle after 12 years away from it, and there's so much inaccurate new stuff on Ancestry, where I have been looking. Plus you seem to have to pay extra fees to actually see the original Scottish records.
I'm rather looking at what Ancestry say still on those Public Member trees, but it appears that William CLEGHORN (1778-1833) was the son of possibly a second marriage of his father Patrick "Peter" CLEGHORN (1744-1793) to Janet WRIGHT b. 1744, with a wedding date of 01-05-1777. There seem to be elder siblings Robert b.1772, Helen "Nelly" b.1774 and Alexander b. 1776, presumably by a previous marriage.
But I cannot without any certainty say what the exact provenance of any of this is without the primary evidence in front of me.
I live in Cambridge, England, just across the road from a very good friend of mine who had less time on his hands than I did 12 years ago (I had already retired from paid employment, and he had not), and for whom I said I would look into his CLEGHORN tree.
My near neighbour is directly descended through William's (1830-1895) son William (1857-1928) and through his youngest son Harry CLEGHORN (1900-1968).
The which John, which John marriage - either 1832 or 1836 - does not indeed affect his direct lineage, it's simply about me presenting him with a (fairly) accurate tree!
Keith
...and reading through things on here again, that sisters SIMPSON connection between Margaret and Isabella just about QED's it for me that it is the marriage to Margaret in 1832 that is the genuine link. Especially with Isabella marrying into the Bonthron family and bringing up William CLEGHORN as their own.
Just goes to show how one person can post an inaccurate, poorly researched "fact" on those Ancestry trees, and people just add the info to their own trees without questioning it. As I was guilty of almost doing for my friendacrosstheroad, actually!
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...oh, and by comparison, the only dates I have for the children of William and Christian(a) are:
Peter, b.21-01-1798
Mary, b.01-06-1800
Janet, b.1806
Up till now, no sighting of your gt-gt-aunt Jane
John, b.06-03-1813
At the moment of conception of William, b.29-01-1830, young father to be John must have been only just sweet sixteen!
Keith
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Jane Cleghorn was born c 1812. Her marriage and death registrations both give her parents names as William Cleghorn and Christian (Christina) Brown. Back in 2003 I found her baptism in December 1812 but I neglected to record where I found it, having just started my research.
I use Ancestry.com as little as possible and find that most trees have errors, often compounded by others copying them and tacking them onto their own trees. My source for most of my Scottish family is Scotlands People.
This is an excerpt from Maggie's diary from her stay in Dundee, September 1892, in which she visit's your friend's ancestor:
Wednesday 14th. James the youngest son, called this morning to meet me, he has not long been married. About 11 o’clock, Tina, Mary & I went down to do some shopping, & see a little of Dundee. It is a very smoky place, owing to so much manufacturing going on, & is not so pretty as Aberdeen. The girls pointed out to me the chief objects of interest, during our walk. On the way home we called on Mrs Wm. Cleghorn, but found her out, we saw her two youngest children, pretty wee things. We are to go there to our tea tomorrow night. I had letters from Grandma today telling me of the death of Mr Hayes of Barrhead. Mr. Malcolm, Tina’s future husband, was here this evening. He seems a very nice gentleman, is fair, & very good-looking. I don’t think the marriage will take place before I leave for Melbourne.
Thursday 15th. I was knitting most of the forenoon, & in the afternoon Tina & Mary & I took the train into town, did a little shopping then went to Mrs Wm. Cleghorn’s to our tea. There are seven children, the oldest being 9 years of age, so you may be sure we were well entertained. I never met a nicer family of children, it was quite a treat to spend an evening among them, they were so polite & well-behaved. Mr Malcolm came during the evening, & after a few games of whist we went home.
Cheers
Russell
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Thank you so much for those excerpts from your great-aunt Maggie's diary of 14th-15th September 1892. This is genuine family history, that properly illuminates the lives of our ancestors!
Looking back to 2008, I think I too must have been subscribing to Scotland's People then, and was able to look directly at primary sources such as Census pages and BMD Certificates. Those Ancestry family trees are a complete minefield. My friendacrosstheroad is most grateful to your input, and now that he has retired from work too it is his intention to travel north soon to Dundee and Chirnside to find out as much as he can about his CLEGHORN past.
When and if this Covid pandemic eases up enough for him to do so.
I think the story of William CLEGHORN (1830-1895) is quite an amazing one, and a very good book could be written about his life, and how the efforts of one man in Victorian times in Scotland could completely transform the fortunes of a family.
Very many thanks again,
Keith
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The 'Tina' Maggie refers is Christina Brown Cleghorn (1864-1948). She married Edward Malcolm (1868-1897) in Fort William, Bengal, India in 1893. As far as I know they only had one child before Edward died, Elizabeth Rattray Malcolm, born 1897 in Dundee.
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I am delighted to have found these posts about William Cleghorn. I have just discovered that my g grandfather's sister was married to William Cleghorn Jnr. She was Jannie Reid Whitson. I have a copy of William Jnr's birth certificate stating his father as William Cleghorn, profession confectioner, his mother as Elizabeth Hogg Cleghorn, nee Matthew. William Jnr's date of birth is January 20th 1857. I also have a marriage certificate for William Jnr and Jeannie. They married on 13 September 1882. Jeannie was resident at Rowan Bank, Alyth and William was resident at Logie House Dundee.
Question 1. If I am correct, then does this means that the Mrs Cleghorn of Maggie's diary's (see previous posts) was actually Jeannie Reid Cleghorn (nee Whitson)
Question 2. Where is the information about William Cleghorn Senior and his rise to fortune in Dundee?
I am very interested to find out all about William Cleghorn sir because Jeannie's brother, James Freer Whitson, my g grandfather inherited a lot of money following the death of his father, James Whitson, at Bardmony Bank Alyth and he went to New Zealand to farm. Sadly, he lost his money and came back with tail between his legs but William Cleghorn, his brother-in-law gave him a job working in a mill. From what I have read on this site, William Cleghorn sir was somewhat amazing, having come from illegitimacy to mill ownership but please can someone point me to the references for this? I would love to read about him
Many thanks
Angie